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by Tarry on 10-31-2003 at 09:00 PM

Catalan - Valencian

Em sap greu dir-ho, però el valencià no és una llengua. Patchou va dir que no s'acceptarien les variants dialectals, tot i així el valencià està admès... El valencià és un dialecte català. I em sap greu dir-ho, però volent diferenciar el valencià del català només aconseguim dividir-nos i afeblir-nos com a poble.
D'això se'n diu Blaverisme o Secessionisme... ^o)

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English (Free Translation)

I'm sorry, but Valencian is not a language. Patchou said that dialects won't be accepted, but Valencian is in MsgPlus. Valencian is a dialect of Catalan. A lot of Valencian people don't admit that, because they say that País Valencià (Comunidad Valenciana, as they said) is not a part of Catalan Countries (Països Catalans - It includes Catalonia, where Catalan is spoken, Valencia, Les Illes Balears and Catalunya Nord in France). In the Catalan Countries the main language is Catalan, but we accept that variety of dialects. As you can see, Catalan and Valencian are quite similar.

by Choli on 11-01-2003 at 12:35 AM

Well, that discussion was commented also when Valencian was going to be (or not) included) in Plus!. I only remember people saying things like you and others the opposit thing. I don't know why Patchou let the valencian translation be in Plus!, but in fact it's in it.
I live at the "Comunidad Valenciana" but in a zone where only spanish is spoken, so I don't want to give my opinion about that. I don't and won't use neither the Catalan nor the Valencian translation.
What I want to say with all this, is that if Valencian is part of Plus! and there are several people who have been working hard in doing a translation then I think Patchou shouldn't remove the Valencian translation. It's just my opinion.

Esa discusion tb tuvo lugar cuando se estaba decidiendo si poner o no el valenciano como un idioma mas del plus. Solo me acuerdo de que habia gente a favor y otros en contra, pero no recuerdo los motivos por los que patchou acepto añadir el valenciano, el hecho es que ahi esta.
Vivo en la comunidad valenciana, pero en el interior (requena) q es una cona castellano hablante por lo tanto no quiero dar mi opinion sobre el tema. no uso ni usare ninguna de las 2 versiones (catalan ni valenciano)
Lo que quiero decir con todo esto, es q el valenciano es parte del plus y que hay varias personas q han estado trabajando duro para hacer la traduccion. por lo tanto creo que patchou no deberia quitar la traduccion valenciana. Es solo mi opinion

by nus on 11-01-2003 at 12:42 PM

be. no és una llengua, és una variant dialectal del català. Jo mateix sóc de València i ho sé, la Universitat de València ho sap: no hi ha cap carrera q es digui Filologia Valenciana. A més a més, la traducció d'Athomo no es correcta, donat que no esta en valencià estandar (i sí, Athomo, he vist que hi han parts que copies de mi xD) Continue sense saber perquè es manté una variant subdialectal reduida i no es possen més "variants" amb més gent que l'use...
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it's isn't a language. I'm from Valencia and I know, the University of Valencia also knows: there is no Valencian Filology, it's Catalan Filology. The valencian that use athomo it's not correct, because it's no a valencian estandard(...) I don't know why Msgplus has valencian. I'll change it by another dialectal variant with more users

by Athomo on 11-01-2003 at 08:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nus
be. no és una llengua, és una variant dialectal del català. Jo mateix sóc de València i ho sé, la Universitat de València ho sap: no hi ha cap carrera q es digui Filologia Valenciana. A més a més, la traducció d'Athomo no es correcta, donat que no esta en valencià estandar (i sí, Athomo, he vist que hi han parts que copies de mi xD) Continue sense saber perquè es manté una variant subdialectal reduida i no es possen més "variants" amb més gent que l'use...
---
it's isn't a language. I'm from Valencia and I know, the University of Valencia also knows: there is no Valencian Filology, it's Catalan Filology. The valencian that use athomo it's not correct, because it's no a valencian estandard(...) I don't know why Msgplus has valencian. I'll change it by another dialectal variant with more users

Nus: Ningú t'obliga a emprar esta traducció. SI vols pots emprar la versió arab

A més a més: Com pot ser que la meua traducció no siga correcta, i alhora, tendre parts copiades de tu? ^o)

. És que si alguna cosa no coincidix amb lo teu ja és incorrecta?
Per cert, cap paraula ha estat copiada de la teua, per lo que si n'hi ha alguna part que coincidix no serà per còpia (com dius tu), sinò per que els dos en possem moltes ganes i interes.

Jo continuaré traduint, encara que no siga del gust de tots, pero no sé perquè tenim que estar sempre en la mateixa història de la llengua.

Nota: Han sigut molts els correus que he rebut (de les dues parts) i ni he acceptat les idees dels "blaveros", ni acceptaré les de els "catalanistes" |-)

. Crec que faig una versió prou estàndard com per a que tots dos, estiguen en pau. (A)

by nus on 11-02-2003 at 02:00 PM

paraules concretes i alguna (en concret una) expressio dels sons, però és igual.
Però hi han paraules i expressions que pel valencià que m'han ensenyat a mi tota la vida, i sóc de l'horta nord, no són correctes en valencià estandar. (sobre tot els est- són formes col·loquials, i algun ap`sotrof perdut pel camí), per la resta la traducció està prou be...

by Tarry on 11-02-2003 at 04:43 PM

So Patchou, can you tell us why did you include Valencian in MSGPlus, when other dialects were not included??
And why are there two varieties of Spanish (Spain and Latin America)?

by billywoods1 on 11-02-2003 at 05:00 PM

I'll answer that for him: no one translated it into other languages. How's he supposed to know it's a dialect and not a language if someone says it's a language? I'm sure he doesn't check up on these things.

by Choli on 11-02-2003 at 05:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tarry
And why are there two varieties of Spanish (Spain and Latin America)?

I think Chrono was who said that. There are 2 versions of Spanish because the latin is a bit different from the span. The other version spanish (mexico) was rejected because it's very similar to the latin one. Also, we've put the formla language (usted) in the spain version and the informal (tú) in the latin.

quote:
Originally posted by billywoods1
I'll answer that for him: no one translated it into other languages.

wtf? what are you saying? I don't get you.

Even if there were 45404510214 people working on a translation Patchou won't add it if he doesn't want or doesn't think that that translation is good enough or different from others translations to be included.

by Tarry on 11-02-2003 at 06:02 PM

That was what Josep M. (a Catalan user) said in the first Catalan-Valencian discussion (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=10716&page=1).

_____________________________________________________
Ask to any linguist...
Also you can search in Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=118108 or the Columbia Enciclopedia http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/IndEurTABLE.html

On this page: http://www.laurentia.com/iso639/lang-en.htm you can see the the ISO 639 Languages and Dialects table, and this one about the Romance Languages: http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/Romance_Languages.html

Finally and definitive, you can go to the University of València and see that they designate his language "catalan" http://www.uv.es/uvalen/cat/
_____________________________________________________

These webs demonstrate that Valencian is not a language, but it's still in MsgPlus. Patchou, please, tell me why.

Comencem dividint les llengües, i acabem dividits com a poble.

by jpg050 on 11-03-2003 at 02:05 PM

Catalán is also a Spanish dialect... I don't see a reason for Valencian to be removed... Each one use the language he wants

by Choli on 11-03-2003 at 04:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jpg050
Catalán is also a Spanish dialect...

I don't think so. About Valencian being a Catalan dialect... that can be argued, but in my opinion Catalan isn't a dialect (or at least, not so dialect from spanish as valencan could be from catalan). I mean, valencian is more similar to catalan than catalan to spanish

by Tarry on 11-03-2003 at 04:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jpg050
Catalán is also a Spanish dialect...

CATALAN is not a spanish dialect. It's a language. A lot of people consideer Catalan a dialect of Spanish, but that's not true... Spanish people want to delete Catalan language and culture....

Hi ha gent a qui no li agrada que es pensi, es llegeixi o s'escrigui en català. És la mateixa gent a qui no li agrada que es llegeixi, s'escrigui o es pensi.
There's a lot of people who don't like others to read, write or think in Catalan. That's usually the same people who don't like to read, write or think. (THAT WAS SAID BY A VALENCIAN AUTHOR, who thought that Catalan and Valencian are the same).

quote:
Originally posted by jpg050
I don't see a reason for Valencian to be removed...

I'm not asking for Valencian to be removed, I only want to know why!! I have nothing against Valencian people, except that ones who think in strange ways (or that's they believe, that they think).

SENSE VALÈNCIA NO HI HA INDEPENDÈNCIA!!! |¡*¡| VISCA CATALUNYA LLIURE!!!

by Choli on 11-03-2003 at 04:56 PM

Creo que este thread se esta saliendo de cauce. Ya se discutió una vez sobre eso y ahora lo unico que importa (si acaso) es que Patchou explique porqué decidió incluir la traducción valenciana en Plus! Voy a "reportear" este thread pidiendo a los moderadores que lo cierren.

I think this thread is getting offtopic. There is another about the same thing and now what really matters is what Patchou has to say (if he wants to say something about why he added the Valencian translation). I'm going to report this thread asking the mods to close it.