bha.. I don't consider Netscape to be a browser, more some kind of illness.

"(often it is a caching problem though... btw, when you suggest clearing the cache, also say that they have to close the browser, some browsers wont fully clear the cache untill you close them.)"
^^
I wasn't talking about Netscape Patchou. Netscape's cache is one of the easiest to clean. You even don't need to close the browser I was more referring to IE.

Oh, and let Fraisie state her solution in that thread you spammed... We would like to know it, so we can help others....



PS don't mind the spelling mistakes

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patchou
I don't consider Netscape to be a browser, more some kind of illness.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by billywoods1
And I suppose Windows must be the fenestral plague...

---

Wats the dif with FireFox and FireBird?

Firefox is Firebird, but they had to change the name due to a conflict with another Open Source project that was also called Firebird.

So now we got
Firebird version 0.6
Firebird version 0.7
Firefox version 0.8

quote:

---

http://mozilla.org/press/mozilla-2004-02-09.html
The new release also marks a name change for the new browser, which was previously known as Mozilla Firebird. “We are pleased to release a new preview version of Mozilla Firefox,” commented Mitchell Baker, President of the Mozilla Foundation. “To avoid overlap with another open source project, we have decided to change the name of this product from Mozilla Firebird to Mozilla Firefox.”

Along with the new name, Firefox sports a new logo and the Mozilla Foundation is kicking off a grass-roots Get Firefox campaign to spread word about the new browser.

---

* user2319 doens't hate netscape, it's better than IE, for as far I used it (not much), but I definetly hate IE..

* user2319 wonders why Patchou is so pro-MS

Did they pay you?

really, maybe netscape sucks, but opera and mozilla (firefox) don't.

I am not pro-Microsoft, I'm just trying to be more objective. When I start Internet Explorer, it works, within 1 second. When I install Netscape and launch it, it crashes. When it doesn 't crash, it stil ltakes it a while to load so that it can display its ugly interface. My conclusion: Internet Explorer is better than Netscape.

And why I hate this company so much? simply because they were at the top 10 years ago (I used Netscape Navigator at that time and I was very happy with it), they went down because they never successfully updated their software and tried to find more opportunities to make Netscape more worthwhile than IE, and when they realized they were not capable of doing it, they concentrated their efforts on blaming Microsoft for their failure. I too sometimes insult Bill when a MS product is screwing up, but I have to be honest: it doesn't happen very often (and for you neither, else, we would all be using another OS and another word editor).  When they screw up, fine, blame them; however, accusing Microsoft for every problem the computer world has to face is not the solution, and I just hate when people accuse someone (or some entity) for no reason except jaleousy.

On that subject, I would like to make it official. I have two companies on my die-list: Netscape and Real Network. Why Real? haha, if you ask, that's because you never installed any of their software (or had to use it afterwards). And after years and years of not being able to update their video client, they've now joined the "Let's get some money from Microsoft" club. That's pathetic.

So, yeah... all I wanted to say is that I'm not pro MS, I'm just don't think that I should force myself to find good things in competitive products just because it's "cool". I don't say that you can't love using Netscape, I just say that I hope you're not using it only because you're "not using a Microsoft-empire-of-evil product".

Note about Opera: the Opera internet browser is a very good example of how a company can try to inovate instead of complaining like the morons at Netscape did . It just proves my point. (I do not use Opera but I do like it and I recognize that it's a better browser that IE for many reasons).

i'm with patchou on the real networks thing..  i wount even install it on my comp anymore and i really really wanted to watch that .ram music video. (hundred million - trebel charger )

i agree. i use mozilla Firefox because i find it faster and slicker.

and for running real files, use real alternative.

I think there are some good reasons to be bashing Microsoft.... Some of their software can get really frustrating. The thing is, they don't fix or improve their software once it is popular: When was Windows XP/Internet Explorer last improved (besides security updates)? Why does my entire MSN Messenger 6.1 hang for about 10 seconds whenever someone is added to a multiple-person conversation (or leaves it)? (or could that be Plus?)

I also feel that they don't always give enough information and control: Web scripts can take control of IE's functions (displaying animation in the Status bar, disabling the right-click menu, hiding standard menus, etc.), MSN Messenger won't tell me who invited me to a multi-person conversation (which is very important for privacy), things like that.... I generally think that they're too rushed to release new fancy big features, instead of focusing on the little things and improving existing software, which is more important to the users IMO.

Oh, and I also think that they (and most other software companies) use too many resources, which forces people to buy new computers... A computer is a tool, not an entertainment center. Sometimes I wonder why famous applications are so slow, when I see how fast some other less-known applications are. I have to admit though, that IE does start up pretty fast. IMO, that's its best "real" advantage over other good browsers (the "unreal" advantage is that it's like a worldwide standard now, and that it ships with Windows).

IE isn't that bad, and neither is MSN Messenger. A lot of effort has been put into creating both. But it's those small things that make the difference, and it seems like they are never going to be fixed/improved. We'll just have to wait for the next major release (Windows Longhorn in IE's case). I'm not saying Microsoft is a crappy software company -- doing what they did is a great achievement. But I do think they have some wrong software strategies. I gave you some real-life examples. I'm not saying this because I think it's cool to put Microsoft down. It's my sincere opinion about their software.

And by the way, I doubt many other companies would do much better than Microsoft. When the company gets this big, the small details are forgotten, and it's just the big fancy new features that they focus on, to compete with other companies. Adobe Reader 6.0 loads as slow as hell, for example. Very unpleasing.

Well, that's all I have to say.

First off, Muss, I think ur little pic. thing is prety aweful Secondly, I hate REAL player too, but I have it bcz there are still quite a few sites that use .ram Also, Microsoft isn't as bad as people make it out to be, though they do have their faults, but still, I found this one prety funny (look what the extra buttons say: )



Though I find this funny, I haven't had one problem with my XBOX...oh wait.....it crashed 4 days after I bought it and I had to get it exchanged

OK, nevermind what I said b4 about my XBOX being problem free but AFTER I exchanged I didn't have any problms with it...until I tried to get on XBOX LIVE....ok, AFTER THAT! I didn't have any problems with it... ()

PS
Sock, in SP2 this summer they will be making improvements to IE such as Tabbed Browsing and a dwld manager, so you can't claim they NEVER update it Just rarely

I dislike Real too. Fortunately, it seems like it's almost gone from the world, so I don't have it.
Now it's mainly QuickTime vs. Windows Media.

I agree that some people exaggerate with the Microsoft-bashing.

SP2 will bring tabbed browsing/download manager to IE? I didn't know that, I thought it would only add a pop-up blocker... But anyway, I don't like the idea of making a browser update available only in an OS service pack. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Well I guess, but it will be standard on future OS...it's kinda sad how long ppl drag out a series though, like "windows" and "playstation", can't they be just a little original? lol

IE is faster because some parts of it are loaded at windows start-up.. very sneaky..

have you people ever tried to download IE? That service pack must be big (FYI: IE is between 11-76MB big!! (average 25!))

And don't forget to d/l your updates every month!! They might have fixed some unfixed bugs

quote:

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Originally posted: here
The keyword for this series is “choice” as in “You have a choice of which browser, or browsers, that you will use.” Everyone has this choice. Even if you work at some draconian salt mine which requires a specific browser, you should be able to install another browser in addition to it. If you can’t do that (and some places won’t allow users to install any software), you can always install Opera at home and continue to use your other browser at work.

Very often I find that people who use Internet Explorer have gotten used to putting up with all sorts of things that they assume (incorrectly) that they cannot change. They think that they have to accept popup windows. They think they have to accept constant security patches — and you’d be amazed how many people have no idea how many security patches they are missing! They think they have to accept a browser that controls what they can do and what they can’t do. They think that the web is a lot slower than it really is, because many times what is really slowing them down isn’t the web, it’s IE.

If you are using Internet Explorer, try a week with Opera, and see what it’s like. If you find a site that just absolutely requires IE, then you can use IE for that site.... but you may find that you soon prefer Opera.

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quote:

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It has become increasingly popular to wrap some sort of a skin around the Internet Explorer engine and try to pass it off as a new browser. Of course the problem is that they are building on a flawed foundation, full of bloated code and security holes. No matter what you lay on top of it, you can’t fix all of IE’s flaws any more than you can put a cow in a silk dress and think it won’t smell.

---

Real = Shit.. and this bullshit about them taking legal action against MS is just crap. MS is trying to develop a home PC which can be used for entertainment, and streaming media as well as general use. I personally think they are well within their rights to do whatvever they want. Real doesnt like it? They can just go to another OS then.. there software is crappy, and streams badly compared to WMP.

now..firefox..



You cannot say that is an attractive interface, it has everything you need.. (sure i have customised it a bit but it just shows the potential this browser has).

(You can see and read more @ http://surfichris.hosted.tv/?postid=19 ).

Anyways, i also agree about netscum, its pretty much a waste of a bloated browser now.. but i really like firefox!

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
Real = Shit.. and this bullshit about them taking legal action against MS is just crap. MS is trying to develop a home PC which can be used for entertainment, and streaming media as well as general use. I personally think they are well within their rights to do whatvever they

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlusFan
I don't know why real is taking legal action, but it's probably because wmp is included standard, right? (that seems to be hot; sueing ms for that )

---

quote:

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http://surfichris.hosted.tv
Microsoft is fighting back against the anti-trust lawsuit that Real Networks took out against the software giant. Real claims that Microsoft illegal used its monopoly power to restrict competition and consmer choice in the digital-media space by forcing Windows Media Player on Windows users.. again!

---

Just readed all off the posts

a) I hate REAL also, first they where good but suddenly they changed habbits and then disliked it

b) I use MyIE2 because it contain's the functionality from IE, but added more things, also uses parts of the IE user interface, added tab functionality, added plugin functions, and more features, because it's not IE self, it's more safer then IE
* Huuf thinks that

p.s. Sorry if my spelling is bad, just got up

Well, guys, another thing I wanted to mention about the start-up time of IE, that in windows, like PlusFan said, some parts are loaded @ start-up, but if you go over to a MAC OS computer, it has a start-up splash like Netscape and other browsers, it takes just as long

Note: I HATE Mac OS, MAC OS X isn't AS bad as the others, but the version I was using was like...8? Anyways, I had to use it for Media Arts last year *shivers @ thought of Mac Os*

{People please read my post }

quote:

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Originally posted by sock
I think there are some good reasons to be bashing Microsoft.... Some of their software can get really frustrating. The thing is, they don't fix or improve their software once it is popular: When was Windows XP/Internet Explorer last improved (besides security updates)?

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quote:

---

Why does my entire MSN Messenger 6.1 hang for about 10 seconds whenever someone is added to a multiple-person conversation (or leaves it)? (or could that be Plus?)

---

quote:

---

Oh, and I also think that they (and most other software companies) use too many resources, which forces people to buy new computers...

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quote:

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A computer is a tool, not an entertainment center.

---

quote:

---

And by the way, I doubt many other companies would do much better than Microsoft. When the company gets this big, the small details are forgotten, and it's just the big fancy new features that they focus on, to compete with other companies.

---

quote:

---

Adobe Reader 6.0 loads as slow as hell, for example. Very unpleasing.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Patchou
I am not pro-Microsoft, I'm just trying to be more objective. When I start Internet Explorer, it works, within 1 second. When I install Netscape and launch it, it crashes. When it doesn 't crash, it stil ltakes it a while to load so that it can display its ugly interface. My conclusion: Internet Explorer is better than Netscape.

---

quote:

---

And why I hate this company so much? simply because they were at the top 10 years ago (I used Netscape Navigator at that time and I was very happy with it), they went down because they never successfully updated their software and tried to find more opportunities to make Netscape more worthwhile than IE, and when they realized they were not capable of doing it, they concentrated their efforts on blaming Microsoft for their failure.

---

quote:

---

I too sometimes insult Bill when a MS product is screwing up, but I have to be honest: it doesn't happen very often (and for you neither, else, we would all be using another OS and another word editor).  When they screw up, fine, blame them; however, accusing Microsoft for every problem the computer world has to face is not the solution, and I just hate when people accuse someone (or some entity) for no reason except jaleousy.

---

quote:

---

On that subject, I would like to make it official. I have two companies on my die-list: Netscape and Real Network. Why Real? haha, if you ask, that's because you never installed any of their software (or had to use it afterwards). And after years and years of not being able to update their video client, they've now joined the "Let's get some money from Microsoft" club. That's pathetic.

---

quote:

---

So, yeah... all I wanted to say is that I'm not pro MS, I'm just don't think that I should force myself to find good things in competitive products just because it's "cool". I don't say that you can't love using Netscape, I just say that I hope you're not using it only because you're "not using a Microsoft-empire-of-evil product".

---

quote:

---

Note about Opera: the Opera internet browser is a very good example of how a company can try to inovate instead of complaining like the morons at Netscape did . It just proves my point. (I do not use Opera but I do like it and I recognize that it's a better browser that IE for many reasons).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by PlusFan
* PlusFan wonders why Patchou is so pro-MS


Did they pay you?

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quote:

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really, maybe netscape sucks, but opera and mozilla (firefox) don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Guido
*cough* Netscape IS Mozilla with some AOL apps bundled, nothing more.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Guido

quote:

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Oh, and I also think that they (and most other software companies) use too many resources, which forces people to buy new computers...

---

So you are confident that Mr. Bill just says "Hey! Add some nice loop over here so that the users needs 3871597195mb of ram to run Calc.exe!! Cool, isn't it, Ballmer?"

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quote:

---

Originally posted: here
Bloat

Why is it that Microsoft's products keep mushrooming in size with each new release always requiring significantly more disk space and more processing power than the last time? They might claim it's because of all the new features they add each time, but that's only half the story. The new features and the increased processing requirements are designed to fuel the process of perpetual upgrades. This is Microsoft's way of rubbing Intel's back so that Intel will give Microsoft preferential treatment when it comes out with new chip specs. It's also Microsoft's way of convincing consumers that their newer product versions are better because they are so much bigger. Their new features are often superfluous but users must still deal with the overhead required by the features even though most will never use the features.

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quote:

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"The Bloatware Debate" is a technical discussion of how two separate people dissected one particular Microsoft program and found out, to their shock, that it was over 2,000% larger than it should have Been. It would appear from this discussion that the cumbersome size of Microsoft programs is due not only to the continually growing clutter of useless features but it is also due to careless programming (perhaps to an even larger degree).

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quote:

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quote:

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Note about Opera: the Opera internet browser is a very good example of how a company can try to inovate instead of complaining like the morons at Netscape did . It just proves my point. (I do not use Opera but I do like it and I recognize that it's a better browser that IE for many reasons).

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Yes, it's nice, but they are on mie die-list as well.

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smilies are disabled for this post!

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido
{People please read my post }

quote:

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Originally posted by sock
I think there are some good reasons to be bashing Microsoft.... Some of their software can get really frustrating. The thing is, they don't fix or improve their software once it is popular: When was Windows XP/Internet Explorer last improved (besides security updates)?

---

Well, they shouldn't improve Windows Xp --> when you buy it, you buy what's there right now. It's not that we are used to get Windows features in SPs or anything. However, the IE part is different. They SHOULD be competing. They are just resting on the couch while watching the rest of the browsers evolve. I sincerely hope that everybody stops using IE so that Microsoft puts some money back in the project... I don't see that happening, however...

quote:

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Why does my entire MSN Messenger 6.1 hang for about 10 seconds whenever someone is added to a multiple-person conversation (or leaves it)? (or could that be Plus?)

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Doesn't happen to me

quote:

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Oh, and I also think that they (and most other software companies) use too many resources, which forces people to buy new computers...

---

So you are confident that Mr. Bill just says "Hey! Add some nice loop over here so that the users needs 3871597195mb of ram to run Calc.exe!! Cool, isn't it, Ballmer?"

Software doesn't need more resources to rearrange the menus to be more understandable (which is one of those "small things"), but those things don't sell. Microsoft has to add skinning into Windows XP to make it attractive for the average user (even for the average designer like me ). They have to add fading, shadows, alpha blended icons. And you can't do that in a 386. And your beloved Apple understands that . You can't run OSX with its fancy (and beautiful) dock animations in the 1984 Macintosh.

quote:

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A computer is a tool, not an entertainment center.

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Wrong A computer is both. They used to be ugly tools, now if they are not entertainment centers they don't succeed.

quote:

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And by the way, I doubt many other companies would do much better than Microsoft. When the company gets this big, the small details are forgotten, and it's just the big fancy new features that they focus on, to compete with other companies.

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

Adobe Reader 6.0 loads as slow as hell, for example. Very unpleasing.

---

Not anymore! Try the first link here

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patchou
I am not pro-Microsoft, I'm just trying to be more objective. When I start Internet Explorer, it works, within 1 second. When I install Netscape and launch it, it crashes. When it doesn 't crash, it stil ltakes it a while to load so that it can display its ugly interface. My conclusion: Internet Explorer is better than Netscape.

---

I remember when Netscape 6 came out, I downloaded it (on 56kbps - ) and LOVED the new skin. I still like it quite a lot, but it was bashed by the xp look

quote:

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And why I hate this company so much? simply because they were at the top 10 years ago (I used Netscape Navigator at that time and I was very happy with it), they went down because they never successfully updated their software and tried to find more opportunities to make Netscape more worthwhile than IE, and when they realized they were not capable of doing it, they concentrated their efforts on blaming Microsoft for their failure.

---

Well, I have to remind you that IE wasn't significantly updated since about 5 years ago. For web developers it's the worst nightmare ever. They don't support standards that have been standards since 1998. At that time, IE was the best. Now, it's good, but simply too inferior to be considered for someone who knows about browsers.

quote:

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I too sometimes insult Bill when a MS product is screwing up, but I have to be honest: it doesn't happen very often (and for you neither, else, we would all be using another OS and another word editor).  When they screw up, fine, blame them; however, accusing Microsoft for every problem the computer world has to face is not the solution, and I just hate when people accuse someone (or some entity) for no reason except jaleousy.

---

I completely agree with you on that: Office works great, Windows works great. There are just a few details (not worth the hate). But IE is really a bad bad example

quote:

---

On that subject, I would like to make it official. I have two companies on my die-list: Netscape and Real Network. Why Real? haha, if you ask, that's because you never installed any of their software (or had to use it afterwards). And after years and years of not being able to update their video client, they've now joined the "Let's get some money from Microsoft" club. That's pathetic.

---

Lol, agreed.

quote:

---

So, yeah... all I wanted to say is that I'm not pro MS, I'm just don't think that I should force myself to find good things in competitive products just because it's "cool". I don't say that you can't love using Netscape, I just say that I hope you're not using it only because you're "not using a Microsoft-empire-of-evil product".

---

Indeed.

quote:

---

Note about Opera: the Opera internet browser is a very good example of how a company can try to inovate instead of complaining like the morons at Netscape did . It just proves my point. (I do not use Opera but I do like it and I recognize that it's a better browser that IE for many reasons).

---

Yes, it's nice, but they are on mie die-list as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlusFan
* PlusFan wonders why Patchou is so pro-MS


Did they pay you?

---

Being "pro-MS" (not hating MS to death) has been turned into a crime nowadays... It's just so L33T

quote:

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really, maybe netscape sucks, but opera and mozilla (firefox) don't.

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*cough* Netscape IS Mozilla with some AOL apps bundled, nothing more.

And anyway, people, don't worry about netscape: it's not like it will last
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13393

---

I agree IE is starting to be way behind. I just want to say something about the famous http standard. Netscape is the worst complient browser currently available and they are the one who didn't follow the standard in the beginning (when every used their software). IE is very standard complient, and of course they've added lots of stuff. The web has evolved a lot in the past 5 years, the standard has not, and Microsoft has always been good to push new stuff. Of course, if you're still found of the unix shell of linux, that's not an argument for you, but I personally like to use tools made for this century .

The university of Calgary still uses Unix e_e

quote:

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Originally posted by Patchou
I agree IE is starting to be way behind. I just want to say something about the famous http standard. Netscape is the worst complient browser currently available and they are the one who didn't follow the standard in the beginning (when every used their software). IE is very standard complient, and of course they've added lots of stuff. The web has evolved a lot in the past 5 years, the standard has not, and Microsoft has always been good to push new stuff. Of course, if you're still found of the unix shell of linux, that's not an argument for you, but I personally like to use tools made for this century .

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Patchou
I agree IE is starting to be way behind. I just want to say something about the famous http standard. Netscape is the worst complient browser currently available and they are the one who didn't follow the standard in the beginning (when every used their software). IE is very standard complient, and of course they've added lots of stuff. The web has evolved a lot in the past 5 years, the standard has not, and Microsoft has always been good to push new stuff...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
I agree on the fact that netscape is currently the worst browser, its very bloated, and is using the old Gecko based rendering engine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Many times I say: "Mozilla is more complient to the standard then MSIE". What I mean by this (because that isn't exactly true) is that MSIE has more own stuff added. And many times, this new stuff is their own variant of an existing implementation/standard. The problem with this is that people think that this IS the standard, which totaly isn't...

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quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
The only extra things that comes with Netscape are the AOL things like AOL IM. But these things can be not installed or ripped of the suite. The only thing you have left is like every other browser suite: a browser, a mailclient, a composer... This is as bloated as every other suite... and while talking about bloated (I can shoot the ball back), what's up with all those useless toolbars, popup-blockers, plugins, etc... in for example Opera? Sure you can choose not to install it.... well, that's the same for Netscape....

---

me still thinks Avant is the best

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
The user interface.. it has an ugly style....well i am speaking from past experiences here, i havent used it for a while as i no longer have a need.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
I agree with WDZ above, on the compliancy of pages and how they still do appear differently in each browser..

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Having read the entire thread, I think I will throw in my 2 cents.

If you want a suite, get Netscape or Mozilla. If you want a browser only, get IE or Opera. *All* of the latest versions of them (by latest i mean up to 3 years old) are *fully* standards compliant. they all perform about the same, and thanks to Mozilla/Netscape's skinning, they can all be made to look the same too.

If you want to blame anyone for pages not rendering properly, blame web authors. Ultimately, it's them that have forced the slow uptake of standards, by not sticking to them. If you look at any of my HTML pages, you will always find this

code:

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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">

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Opera is also a suite. It includes a mail thingy (M2?), and 7.50 will have simple IRC chat

I stand corrected, but my original point still holds.

Yes, but the graphics slow down the load-up, I just liek simple browsers, no loaded down by a lot of crap, with one row for buttons, one for NAV,a nd one for my google bar!

@Gigablade: Opera is better then that, because you can disable the google bar and then use the "g" paramter

example: type in the adress bar

"g netscape illness"

and you will 'google' for netscape+illness

quote:

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Originally posted by gigablade77
Yes, but the graphis slow down the load-up, I just liek simple browsers, no loaded down by a lot of crap, with one row for buttons, one for NAV,a nd one for my google bar!

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Netscape isn't that good...Yeah I've only had to deal with it a few times but meh garbage speaks for itself

quote:

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Originally posted by anubis_kree_
Netscape isn't that good...Yeah I've only had to deal with it a few times but meh garbage speaks for itself

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quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
In any standalone browser (yes, Mozzila has his own standalone browser: FireFox. And Netscape also has his standalone browser) you can set the toolbars you wish. And all the standalone browsers are roughly all the same. There is no crap in any browser. It all comes down to user interface and rendering HTML pages. So, if you say that you like the userinterface of your browser more, then I wont argue. But saying that others are crap and bloated doesn't hold any ground.

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quote:

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Like I said, all the top-browsers have all the same functions.
examples:
* "g netscape illness" in Opera. You can do that (even without "g") with MSIE, and in Netscape/Mozilla as well.

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quote:

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* Google Toolbars? for every major browser there is a google toolbar...

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quote:

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* Toolbars in general? In every major browser you can enable/disable select/deselect and even create your own...

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quote:

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* Tabbed browsing? In every major browser you can do that except in MSIE (but this will be added soon)

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quote:

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For most browsers and suites you can download a very basic "browser only". It is up to you to download, install more functions, toolbars, plugins, etc.. etc..

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I dont know why but no matter how many times I try and move away from Internet Explorer i always end up coming back to it.  It's reliable and never seems to fail that often.  The others all seem a lil sluggish when it comes to loading them up.  Plus IE intergrates well with windows!

i actually agree with Wabz, although i love Firefox i seem to keep using IE for alot of sites aswell, i currently mainly use Firefox for this site and a few others but i use IE when i need a quick reference from a site or just a quick website check etc, IE loads quicker than all other browsers and opera, i used to like opera but then i found Firefox (then Firebird) and since then i've hated opera (still have it installed though) i find opera way too bulky, too many features, i prefere IE and Firefox because they seem smaller, i know Opera is 3mb to dl (non java) but im on DSL so 3mb is nothing tbh, loading times are about the same for me in ALL browsers, maybe slightly faster in Firefox and Opera but not amazingly faster...

Never tried Netscape though so not sure about it

quote:

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Originally posted by Wabz
I dont know why but no matter how many times I try and move away from Internet Explorer i always end up coming back to it.  It's reliable and never seems to fail that often.  The others all seem a lil sluggish when it comes to loading them up.  Plus IE intergrates well with windows!

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Also, the total size of opera is so small because the core files and executables are all compressed. Other browser don't compress there files. Uncompressed, Opera is roughly as big as the other browsers (though, still a bit smaller, but not much). (and because it doesn't come standard with Java, like every other browser)

The big difference between Netscape Browser and FireBird/Fox (I always mixed those up ) is the userinterface. Most people will find the basic Netscape look a bit "old". But that's why I like it, no "fancy "stuff, just clean layout (blah... also because I'm old ? ) But you can easly change the look from Netscape though (just like any other browser). Also Mozilla/FireFox/Bird has always a more recent build of the engine. The reason is simple: Netscape waits until a very stable engine-build has released publicly before they build there own suite around it. The benefit of this is that Netscape will be roughly more stable then Mozilla/Firefox/Bird, because they could contain not yet discovered and fixed bugs. So, that's the second reason why I use Netscape instead of the other Mozilla's... But this will change in the futur, cause I doubt there will be a new Netscape coming (see other notes/articles/posts about Netscape stop developping). Oh, and the AOL things in Netscape? I just don't install them, and what I can't unselect at the install, I can remove later...

Might be, but that makes it easier/better to download than Mozilla FireFox. And you can choose a version with Java installed. It's 15. instead of 3.something. So there's no way that file is included with Mozilla FireFox also, for Mozilla you still have to download plug-ins for a lot of things. Why are you going Netscape vs Mozilla?

isn't Mozilla/Netscape vs Opera more interesting (talking about IE is boring; it sucks compared to mozilla and Opera anyway )

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Originally posted by PlusFan
Why are you going Netscape vs Mozilla?

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Originally posted by PlusFan
isn't Mozilla/Netscape vs Opera more interesting (talking about IE is boring; it sucks compared to mozilla and Opera anyway )

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have fun reading, guys..

note: smilies are disabled

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Yes, but Mozilla and Netscape share the same codebase, you could see netscape as a bit outdated but more stable. So they're about the same (about). Opera is different to Netscape and Mozilla. IE is also, but everybody here knows IE sucks, they're just too bored/whatever to switch.


I say Opera is better. It is really hard to find all these (sometimes little) things that I like better then Mozilla (if I quote from that guy, with Mozilla he means Mozilla FireBird, or - as he says - "whatever it's called by now")

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Who is this series for?

This series hopes to be useful for:
Those who have never used Opera (you&#8217;ll learn why so many love it)
Those who think Internet Explorer is the best browser out there (if anyone can help you, it&#8217;s Opera)
Those who have used Opera but haven&#8217;t explored all it has to offer (and you may be surprised at how much is under there)
Those who think that Mozilla has the corner on innovation in the browser world (want to know where they get a lot of their ideas ;-?)

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Very often I find that people who use Internet Explorer have gotten used to putting up with all sorts of things that they assume (incorrectly) that they cannot change. They think that they have to accept popup windows. They think they have to accept constant security patches &#8212; and you&#8217;d be amazed how many people have no idea how many security patches they are missing! They think they have to accept a browser that controls what they can do and what they can&#8217;t do. They think that the web is a lot slower than it really is, because many times what is really slowing them down isn&#8217;t the web, it&#8217;s IE.

If you are using Internet Explorer, try a week with Opera, and see what it&#8217;s like. If you find a site that just absolutely requires IE, then you can use IE for that site.... but you may find that you soon prefer Opera.

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What about some of those other browsers?

It has become increasingly popular to wrap some sort of a skin around the Internet Explorer engine and try to pass it off as a new browser. Of course the problem is that they are building on a flawed foundation, full of bloated code and security holes. No matter what you lay on top of it, you can&#8217;t fix all of IE&#8217;s flaws any more than you can put a cow in a silk dress and think it won&#8217;t smell.

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The first thing to love about Opera is that you can download it in half the time of Mozilla Firebird and a tiny fraction of the time it would take you to update to the latest Internet Explorer, or even the security patches.

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The Mozilla folks claim that Mozilla Firebird (née Phoenix) is &#8220;A Lean, Mean Browsing Machine&#8221;. Lean and Mean? Compared to who? But saying you are &#8220;lean and mean&#8221; compared to Internet Explorer is like saying you are in better shape than Jabba the Hutt!

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So how lean and mean is Firebird? It weighs in at 6.8 MB (Windows) or 9.2 MB (Linux) or 11.9 MB (Mac OSX). Compare that to Opera&#8217;s 3.3 MB &#8212; which includes a revolutionary mail program and several features only available as separate downloads in Mozilla Firebird. (Mozilla&#8217;s mail program is another 8.9 - 10.6 MB.)

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Customizing Your Toolbars

Ok, so Opera&#8217;s ability to change skins leaves other browsers in the dust, but we&#8217;re not done yet. Changing the color and the look is nice, but what about the buttons that you might not ever use? Wouldn&#8217;t it be easier if you could setup the buttons in such a way that worked best for you?

Well, Opera gives you that option. Right click on the Main toolbar (the top toolbar, under the row that says File/Edit/View/Navigation/etc) and select Customize Toolbars. You will get a window with three tabs of options. The first one is large icons, the second one is small icons, and the third is a list of fields, including 18 &#8212; that&#8217;s right 18 &#8212; search engine options.
Right Click Trick

One Operator (that&#8217;s my name for an experienced Opera user) said it best: When using Opera, &#8220;right click everything.&#8221; The toolbars are certainly a good example of this.

Right click trick: If you right click on the Main toolbar, you will see this context menu:

&#8220;Remove from Toolbar&#8221; does just that, it removes the current icon from the toolbar.

&#8220;Top/Bottom/Left/Right/Off&#8221; determines where the Toolbar appears

&#8220;Images Only/Text Only/Images and Text Below/Images and Text on right&#8221; &#8212; lets you control the items on the toolbar. Play around & see which you prefer.

&#8220;Large Images&#8221; changes between large (checked) and small (unchecked)

&#8220;Lock Buttons&#8221; prevents you from moving the icons around
&#8220;Customize Toolbars&#8221; brings up a panel, showing you all the various icons you can use
&#8220;Reset Toolbar&#8221; will bring it back to the original settings

&#8220;Skin&#8221; brings up another context menu showing all your installed skins.

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Conclusion

F12 rules. No other browser comes close to matching its ease and usefulness for some very handy features.

If, by any chance, you didn&#8217;t find any of this compelling, tomorrow will certainly change your mind. That&#8217;s because tomorrow is Day Five: Searching, and by the end of that day you should have enough to keep you occupied for the weekend and beyond. See you then.

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Not long ago someone emailed me about Opera and started with this quote: &#8220;I have switched to Opera, and I couldn&#8217;t be happier.... my God man, the search features... THE SEARCH FEATURES!&#8221;. That was one of the reasons I decided to update this series for Opera7, because it is a major selling point.

Just look at all of these search engines: Google, AllTheWeb, Lycos, SearchBoss, Amazon.com, Ebay, Price Comparison, Download.com, Domain name, Image, Video, MP3/Audio, Google Groups, News, and Opera support.

I&#8217;ll save you the time it would take to count them: there are FIFTEEN integrated search options. All of them have associated keyboard commands, so you do not even have to put them on any of the toolbars if you don&#8217;t want to.

Sure, Googlebar is nice (oooh, now it has a popup-stopper! Opera has had one since v6) Let&#8217;s compare: Googlebar = 1 search engine, Opera has FIFTEEN integrated search options. Googlebar also has to be visible to work, and there are no keystrokes. And what if you don&#8217;t want to use Google?

As I said in the beginning (Intro, Day 1) Opera is all about having choices. Opera combines 15 search options with muliple methods of using those search engines: 1) Use keystrokes, 2) Put the searches you want on a Toolbar, 3) use the multi-dropdown to get quick access to all of them.

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The moral of the story is that you can change the keystrokes and the search engines that Opera uses. Checkout the defaults by going to Preferences > Search. You can use the keystrokes in the Addressbar or by pressing F2. For example, if you wanted to search Google for &#8220;Norah Jones&#8221; you would simply press F2 and then type:

g norah jones

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Opera 7.2 introduced a new search feature that builds upon Inline Find (a longtime feature). By pressing . or / you can do an Inline Find. By pressing , you can limit that search to links only. Mozilla users may recognize this as similar to Find-As-You-Type, except that Opera gives you a visual cue that a search has been initiated.

Once you have the letters you want to search for, you can press F3 to find the next occurrence and Shift + F3 to find previous matches.

If you want to cancel the search, simply wait or press ESC.

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Powerful. Configurable. Incomparable. Unmatched. The search options alone make Opera worth the asking price, and make it far better than the other browsers out there. Given the importance of searching in today&#8217;s web, it&#8217;s hard to imagine a more practical and useful feature.

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The Nickname field is really a standout feature. You can assign an optional unique nickname with any page. Then if you want to open that page, all you need to do is enter it in the Address Bar or by pressing F2 and enter it there. Or you can press Shift + F2 and start typing.

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Do you ever misspell the name of a website you like to visit? Very often people will register domain names that are common misspellings of popular sites (http://www.amzaon.com/ as a typo for http://www.amazon.com/ for example). Some of these misspellings will lead you to pornographic sites. Avoid the hassle! Bookmark your favorite sites and give them shorter, easier to type nicknames and never end up at the wrong site again due to a slip of the fingers!

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Let&#8217;s compare the steps to downloading a file which we will call &#8220;test.exe&#8221; just as an example.

Steps in Internet Explorer
Click on the file
Panel opens asking if you want to save/open/cancel/or get help
Choose save
Select folder (and filename, if you wish to change it)
Click OK
Download begins

Now here are the steps in Opera
Click on the file
Download begins
Panel opens asking if you want to save/open/cancel/or get help
Choose save
Select folder (and filename, if you wish to change it)
Click OK

Did you notice the difference? It looks pretty minor, I know, but it is worth noting. Opera begins the download as soon as you click on the file, which means that while you are deciding where to save the file and what to call it, and whether you want to just save it or open it, Opera is working in the background to save the file. If the file is small enough or if you are on a fast connection, it may even be downloaded by the time you are finished making your choices.

Now granted that may seem like a little thing, but it has the practical effect of making your download faster, not by speeding up your connection but simply by starting the download as soon as you indicate you want to download it. Just another nice touch by the folks at Opera that leaves you wondering, &#8220;Why didn&#8217;t anyone else think of that?&#8221;

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You may have noticed a screen like this appearing when Opera first starts up:



This panel will appear automatically if Opera did not shut down properly (a crash, perhaps, or a system lockup). In those hopefully-rare cases, you will want to select the button next to &#8220;Continue from last time&#8221; and click on &#8220;Start&#8221;. Opera will re-open all the pages that were open before Opera shut down.

That is a pretty amazing (and unique to Opera) feature. But wait, there&#8217;s more!

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How many times have you accidentally closed a page you were looking at? You know, that page where that you had found after searching through Google or a web store&#8217;s search engine, that page with an URL that was designed not to let you bookmark it, or some other page that you realizied you wanted back. But it was gone.

Well with Opera you never have to worry about that again. Just press Control + Alt + Z. You&#8217;ll notice that is similar to Control + Z which is nearly-universal for &#8220;Undo&#8221;. Well, think of this as &#8220;Undo Closing that Window&#8221;! With that keystroke, Opera will re-open the last window that you closed. Nobody else has that.

Important! Opera&#8217;s memory for closed windows is cleared when you quit Opera.

If that&#8217;s not enough for you, goto Window + Closed and you will see a listing of the last ten windows that you closed.

I can&#8217;t count the number of times this has come in handy, even in just the time that Opera 7.2 was in beta-testing.

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ANOTHER GREAT FEATURE!! (sorry for the shouting, but this post is very long, and otherwise you may just not notice )

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My Eyes! My Eyes!

There are an astonishing number of really bad web pages out there. I won&#8217;t point any fingers or link to any specific examples. You&#8217;ve seen them. You know them. You hate them.... Actually you probably just got used to them.

There are pages with black backgrounds and tiny fonts. They make you squint. It makes your eyes strain. There are horrendous repeating background images which make it nearly impossible to read the text. There are soft blue backgrounds with faint white fonts &#8212; oh the possibilities are nearly as endless as the web itself.... but the point is this:

There are a lot of bad web pages out there. Want to make them better?
User Style Sheets

Opera in Author mode:

Opera in User mode:

Note the change in the 4th icon. Toggle between both modes by clicking on the icon or press Control + G.

Right next to the Address Bar (where the current URL is shown) are four icons; from left to right they are a padlock, a camera, a printer, and a piece of paper with the corner folded over. We&#8217;re going to look at the 4th icon. There are two modes: Author Mode and User Mode. Author Mode is the default (unless you change it in preferences).

If you haven&#8217;t configured User Mode (Preferences > Page Style > Configure Modes) then switching between User Mode and Author Mode may not appear to make any difference.

However, if you choose the dropdown and select one of the predefined user style sheets, the page will change. Most often the one you will want to use is High Contrast (B/W), which will transform the page to black text on a white background.

You can select as many different predefined user style sheets as you would like. Their effects are cumulative (that is, you can select more than one and Opera will attempt to apply all of them at once. The net effect will vary, and not all styles are compatible with one another).

User Style Sheets are an easy way to make an ugly page readable. (Apply your own CSS by making your own Style Sheet.)
Conclusion

Ugly pages? Opera makes them better. It ain&#8217;t magic, but it&#8217;s close. (Neither Mozilla nor Internet Explorer have anything like it.) Mozilla does not have user style sheets (at least not anywhere I could find). Internet Explorer does, under Internet Options > General > Accessibility.

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Recent CNet article about how bad Internet Explorer&#8217;s CSS support is compared to Opera

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Originally posted by Guido
Well, they shouldn't improve Windows XP --> when you buy it, you buy what's there right now. It's not that we are used to get Windows features in SPs or anything.

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Why does my entire MSN Messenger 6.1 hang for about 10 seconds whenever someone is added to a multiple-person conversation (or leaves it)? (or could that be Plus?)

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Doesn't happen to me

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Oh, and I also think that they (and most other software companies) use too many resources, which forces people to buy new computers...

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So you are confident that Mr. Bill just says "Hey! Add some nice loop over here so that the users needs 3871597195mb of ram to run Calc.exe!! Cool, isn't it, Ballmer?"

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Software doesn't need more resources to rearrange the menus to be more understandable (which is one of those "small things"), but those things don't sell. Microsoft has to add skinning into Windows XP to make it attractive for the average user (even for the average designer like me ). They have to add fading, shadows, alpha blended icons. And you can't do that in a 386. And your beloved Apple understands that . You can't run OSX with its fancy (and beautiful) dock animations in the 1984 Macintosh.

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A computer is a tool, not an entertainment center.

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Wrong A computer is both. They used to be ugly tools, now if they are not entertainment centers they don't succeed.

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Adobe Reader 6.0 loads as slow as hell, for example. Very unpleasing.

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Yah , Opera takes up 3mb and FireFox takes up 7mb but what does it matter? If your computer has 20GB of space at its hands (which is what I have and most people have around there). There are about 1000mb in a GB so you have 20,000MB. Taking up 7 of them will not slow down your computer. I dont know.....its just a matter of preferences , depending on what you like. Firefox is my style because it has a good Download Manager that can handle my downloads neatly , has a wonderfuly organized way to veiw my history , and the endless possibilities of extintions that allow me to create my own features

1 GB == 1024MB

I was talking about downloading. But you don't critisize my other points, sadly..

it is a matter of preferences. Agreed. But Opera is just better. If it isn't, than The only thing "better" about Mozilla is that it's free and open-source.

Opera also handles downloads neatly (it even already begins the download while you're chosing if you want to "open" it or in what folder you will save it.

Opera's history is good, though I never use it, and the Window > Closed > .... trick is very handy.

Opera doesn't need extensions, because everything's already included. My W3-dev menu is very nice, though

I don't know if it's possible to create your own features with Opera, through extensions, but I don't really see need for it anyway

As I said, the only thing better about Mozilla is IMO that it's open-source and free.

Opera takes up to much screen space and doesnt give enough space to veiw the webpage. Firefox gives you like 8% more room to actually veiw the webpage.

You mean the hotbar in Opera 7.23? Yeah, I know.. I never used it You can easily disable it. In 7.50, this will change.

I'll install a fresh Firefox, a fresh opera 7.23 and a fresh 7.50 preview 2.. just for testing

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Originally posted by PlusFan
...[SNIPPED]...

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...Very often I find that people who use Internet Explorer have gotten used to putting up with all sorts of things that they assume (incorrectly) that they cannot change...

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...They think they have to accept constant security patches...

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...It has become increasingly popular to wrap some sort of a skin around the Internet Explorer engine and try to pass it off as a new browser....

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...The Mozilla folks claim that Mozilla Firebird (née Phoenix) is "A Lean, Mean Browsing Machine". Lean and Mean? Compared to who? But saying you are "lean and mean" compared to Internet Explorer is like saying you are in better shape than Jabba the Hutt!

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...Compare that to Opera's 3.3 MB - which includes a revolutionary mail program and several features only available as separate downloads in Mozilla Firebird...

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...Opera's ability to change skins leaves other browsers in the dust... blah blah... change buttons... blah blah... toolbars...

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...The first one is large icons, the second one is small icons, and the third is a list of fields, including 18 - that's right 18 - search engine options.

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...Mozilla users may recognize this as similar to Find-As-You-Type, except that Opera gives you a visual cue that a search has been initiated.

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...Once you have the letters you want to search for, you can press F3...

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...Given the importance of searching in today's web, it's hard to imagine a more practical and useful feature...

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...You can assign an optional unique nickname with any page...

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...downloading files...

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...Opera will re-open all the pages that were open before Opera shut down. That is a pretty amazing (and unique to Opera) feature... ...or some other page that you realizied you wanted back. But it was gone... ...Opera will re-open the last window that you closed. Nobody else has that...

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...There are a lot of bad web pages out there. Want to make them better? User Style Sheets...

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hmm... more stuff for me to reply on.. I'm very busy comparing Opera 7.23, 7.50p2 and Mozilla FireFox now..

Cookie!

shouldnt firefox be firebird and if there is a new open project they re stealing another project that was already produced

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Originally posted by chungster
shouldnt firefox be firebird and if there is a new open project they re stealing another project that was already produced

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Originally posted by PlusFan
hmm... more stuff for me to reply on.. I'm very busy comparing Opera 7.23, 7.50p2 and Mozilla FireFox now..

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Okay, Okay.. but it was only about the interfaces, because NoName seems to hate the Opera interface.

* user2319 goes download more

edit: if you have Mozilla 1.7 Preview, can you please tell me if there are interface changes? Thank you very much!

edit2: uhhhh.. I just downloade NS 7.1. I'll only install the 'netscape navigator' I don't need mail and instant messaging, and/or a spell checker. Or does this make a different interface?

interface is the same

um-kay.. I think i'll finish it tomorrow. Together with comments on what you posted

Statement: Mozilla is free and open-source. That's cool. If Opera was free and open-source (under the same license as Mozilla ans stuff), then Opera would be cooler than Mozilla.

Agreed? Why? Why not?

I'm way too busy atm, so I'll release that interface-test thing later... I swear, I'll put it on my to-do list!

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Originally posted by PlusFan
Statement: Mozilla is free and open-source. That's cool. If Opera was free and open-source (under the same license as Mozilla ans stuff), then Opera would be cooler than Mozilla.

Agreed? Why? Why not?

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What's wrong with Opera's rendering engine? It works great for me, and it's fast too. Much better than IE. I haven't compared it with Mozilla, so I can't say Opera is better, but it's still pretty damn good!

Also, what useful features does Mozilla have that Opera doesn't? What makes it a better web browser?

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Originally posted by WDZ
What's wrong with Opera's rendering engine? It works great for me, and it's fast too. Much better than IE. I haven't compared it with Mozilla, so I can't say Opera is better, but it's still pretty damn good!

Also, what useful features does Mozilla have that Opera doesn't? What makes it a better web browser?

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I can't believe how dragged out this thread ahs become Someone should rename this thread:

"Netscape = War"

Demandred, thanks for posted all that, but it doesn't say a thing about what WDZ asked... All those things are "features" of Mozilla, not differences between Mozilla and Opera.

If you read between the lines in WDZ's post, he meant: What makes you say that Mozilla is so much better then Opera? There are no significant differences between Mozilla and Opera... It comes down to what you prefer to look at...

He prefers Opera's UI, so he should use that. There is no feature in Opera that Mozilla doesn't have in one way or another, and vice versa...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
There is no feature in Opera that Mozilla doesn't have in one way or another, and vice versa...

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Let's try bringing in some new points once in awhile. I read the first ten posts, and they were alll almost exactly the same. I read the next 30 posts....... I had to splash myself with water to keep myself away. I agree with you here, not here, blahblahblah.....Could you make this interesting for us people who don't have six hours to read the same stuff. I agree with Cookie...if you're happy with your browser and know the pros and cons of the others, then wtf are you doing arguing which one is the best? Everyone has their own opinions.

Thanks for all the opinions. I know theres a lot of stuff here which hasnt been asnwered (and a lot that has). If people are slightly annoyed this topic is over and they'd like to say more we have a forum at the very bottom called 'Testing & Trashing' - feel free to use it.


Thread Closed.
Reason: Turned into browser flaming war.

JM.