Letting other's know you have Plus! - Printable Version
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Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-07-2004 at 05:38 PM
Hello,
Im not sure this belongs in this category, but I couldn't find any other category to post it in.
Anyways, in the current version on MsgPlus! you can only let someone else know you have Plus! by doing one of the commands, or /ping.
However, considering the growing population of "bots" on Messenger's network, it might be an idea to send a special formatted header over the IM session to notify everyone, including bots you can receive Plus, or of course, cannot (Maybe include a small list of features enabled?).
I'm sure a lot of people in the bot community, including myself, would be quite thankfull for this, seeing we can then determine if we can use Plus! with that specific user, or if we cannot.
Another handy thing about this, that normal users can get notified that the other doesn't have Plus! so it's useless to use those features in the IM session.
Just an example of such an header might be:
MSG <id> N <length>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/msgplus
Features: <bitwised feature string>
The bitwised feature sting can work like MSN's bitwising, which surely isn't hard to do in C (as I assume MsgPlus is written in C or a similar language).
Thanks!
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by CookieRevised on 03-07-2004 at 05:44 PM
Hmmm... has some potential. And it doesn't invade people privacy I think. I like it on the condition that people without Plus! wouldn't see a thing. I mean they wouldn't get any message appearing all the time.
(and that you can turn it off of course)
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-07-2004 at 05:54 PM
If that's possible it's a great suggestion. But I'm afraid of there being any MSN-protocol violation...
Anyway, nice enough to give it a try 
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Choli on 03-07-2004 at 06:10 PM
quote:send a /ping command and you'll get the answer...
Originally posted by siebe
seeing we can then determine if we can use Plus! with that specific user, or if we cannot.
if you want to do that in a bot, the exact thing you have to send is:
quote:you can also add a command in your bot so the user can decide if he wants to receive plus "features" or not. Maybe at some moment, the user wants to receive sounds but if it's too late at night he doesn't want to. so the user just says "!plus on" or "!plus off" to the bot (or whatever syntax you use)
Ping? [msgplus]
about the header, that's too much work for Patchou, because plus doesn't work at that level (with the protocol directly).
quote:Plus is done in VC++ 7.1
Originally posted by siebe
as I assume MsgPlus is written in C or a similar language
quote:if you want to notify your contacts, can't you just say "I'm using plus"?
Originally posted by siebe
it might be an idea to send a special formatted header over the IM session to notify everyone,
quote:just the same... just type /ping and you'll know it you can use plus features or not.
Originally posted by siebe
Another handy thing about this, that normal users can get notified that the other doesn't have Plus! so it's useless to use those features in the IM session.
quote:that may be a real problem, also if you change what is being sent, ie:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
But I'm afraid of there being any MSN-protocol violation...
quote:maybe the server doesn't know how to handle that or the client at the other end.
Originally posted by siebe
MSG <id> N <length>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/msgplus
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-07-2004 at 10:41 PM
Oh, don't worry about the server alright, it can handle just about everything.. It doesn't care about what kind of packets are send, as long as the official client can read them, if the content type is unknown to it, it will kind of, discard the message and not show anything.
About the violation.. MsgPlus is already violating (in a way) MS's policies.
About the plus setting thing, or /ping or whatever.. I know that is possible, but then we have to keep track of every user, check if they use it or not.. if not set, send them a ping, or send them a ping anyway cause they could be on any computer, anywhere on this damn planet.
And I don't know about you, but I find it quite irritating when I meet someone who for example doesn't have plus, and I have to find out the hard way. I can ask that person, or I could find out by him/her responding like "I can't see that", but wouldn't it be much easier that messenger/plus would automaticly detect that? Just to let you know, I talk to nearly 1000 DIFFERENT people each month.
Also, I'm sure it won't be THAT hard to dig a bit deeper and tap into the socket. It has been been done by many small plugins, why not Plus? Or does it already? I don't know about you, but to my knowledge I don't see any messages appearing in my textbox which are automaticly send on for example /ping... It has to come from SOMEWHERE, which indicates it already uses the socket directly.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Pappapishu on 03-08-2004 at 12:01 AM
i heard of the idea of putting a plus! icon like the webcam one, that would be rather simple and useful!
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by BooGhost on 03-08-2004 at 12:23 AM
quote:yeqh but i do't know why it's not being added
Originally posted by Pappapishu
i heard of the idea of putting a plus! icon like the webcam one, that would be rather simple and useful!
well now with the 3rd version comming up it could be thought again
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Patchou on 03-08-2004 at 03:20 AM
It's a violation of protocol and a violation of privacy. If bots want to know if you have Plus!, they can always send you a ping .
Note: and no, Plus! is not violating any Messenger "rules", it's 100% legal (if it was not, Microsoft would already have send me a letter, as they did with Trillian and the others).
Patchou
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-08-2004 at 08:27 AM
I do not see why it's a violation of someone's privacy to be honoust. To give you an example.. Let's say you go the local grocer, and buy banana's.. Everyone in that grocer knows you got banana's.. And it's not like you put them under your jacket "cause you want no one to know you are going to buy banana's".
But ok, I can understand you might find it a violation of the protocol..
Anyway's, it was only an idea, I just thought to suggest it
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Pappapishu on 03-08-2004 at 11:20 AM
but, it could be like the wabcam thing, there could be the choice of letting people know through the icon or disable it!
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-08-2004 at 03:16 PM
quote:This is the idea, but there's a way to get to it. Not so simple
Originally posted by Pappapishu
but, it could be like the wabcam thing, there could be the choice of letting people know through the icon or disable it!
The fact is that it's a violation to ping silently in that way, but I'm sure there should be another way to do this without protocol terms violation. Touching the headers makes it obviously illegal, I'm afraid
.Let's say... sending a special character at the end of the name the first time a message sent in a IM-window and the receiver would acknowledge it with sending the character once along with the nickname back (and so each time an im-window is opened or a contact is added to the convo, just like adding the auto-message to the end of the nickname).
Of course it can be made optional so you can turn it off or ask the user during the setup if s/he wants to let others know s/he has MP! installed. Nice and clean.
PS.: It can be a series of characters so it cannot be easily hacked (microtime seed)
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-08-2004 at 03:22 PM
Nice idea 
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by CookieRevised on 03-08-2004 at 04:07 PM
euhmmm... I thought all this would come up.... There is a confusion here...
The original idea is NOT invasion of privacy! (invasion of the protocol is another thing, that's true)....
With the /ping command YOU find out if YOUR contact has plus or not... In doing so, your contact MUST be warned about this, otherwise it is an invasion (Plus! does this by showing the text and thus not conflicting with privacy).
With the original suggestion, YOU tell OTHERS that you have plus!, not the other way around! You don't find out if someone else uses Plus! (that's why there is /ping), You tell others that you have Plus!. So there is NO invasion of privacy. And this is only send to a contact, when you start a conversation.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-08-2004 at 04:14 PM
I was discussing bots, not just your contacts. It isn't very handy if you have to /ping each time you want to determine if someone has MP, cause that will be needed.
Again, may I remind you I talk to nearly 1000 different people a month, which makes it quite frustrating to find out if someone has plus, or to ask them each time yatty yatty ya.
I don't see any privacy violation or anything with this, especially if you can disable or enable it to will.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-08-2004 at 04:22 PM
Privacy is not violated as long as there's an option to keep some information private. The way I suggest, violates neither the protocol nor the privacy. If you want to tell others you have MP!, it tells, if you don't there are two ways:
1- Keep seeing if others have Plus! automatically (if they have the option enabled)
2- Not allow to see automatically if they have. So there's none secretly tracking Plus! users. Ping feature should still be used in those cases. This would be just a way to prevent sun-glasses-wearing clients.
regardless of the option there's no violation, as said. And you would get a warning at setup or the first time, so you can set whether you want this to happen or not.
In my opinion, I defend the 
-avoiding theory, so it's right for people who kind of hide themselves from tell they're using Plus! (which I accept and respect) not to see others who don't do so.
If you're really worried about privacy, you could even handle groups or single contacts to be able to see this info sent by you. And even to be prompted each time you add someone to your list.
Sounds better now?
quote:I think you didn't get my explanation very well (very likely because of my poor English
Originally posted by CookieRevised
With the original suggestion, YOU tell OTHERS that you have plus!, not the other way around! You don't find out if someone else uses Plus!
) The information, ie the charachters automatically being sent, as long as the option is enabled, tells other MP! users you use MP!. Reglar users don't notice anything. This wuoldn't work as a PING (in the original meaning) but would let others find out if you have MP!.
And vice-versa, of course, because, when there's something sent, the client may sent an acknowledge back telling s/he's using MP!, too.
JM said: [We have a button that looks like this:
![[Image: edit.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/edit.gif)
feel free to use it]. But editing doesn't send an e-mail notification
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by CookieRevised on 03-08-2004 at 05:56 PM
KeyStorm, that's exactly what I said....
quote:No, not vice versa, there is a small difference. There shouldn't be any acknowledgement. It still isn't: "let's see if someone uses plus!" (ack needs to be send, just like with the /ping)... It still is: "lets tell people I'm using plus!" (both clients send this to eachother, so no acknowledgement; just like sending /ping whenever you send a message, but without the other client responding to it). The client doesn't actively looks for the string. It gets the string parsed. There is a small difference there...
Originally posted by KeyStorm
And vice-versa, of course, because, when there's something sent, the client may sent an acknowledge back telling s/he's using MP!, too.
The only options that should be available (and turned off by default) is: "Tell others I use Plus!" and "show <something> if others use Plus!". This is indeed very similar of how the webcam-icon works.
So anyway, we mean the same... but I was more referring to other posters (including Patchou) who start talking about "let's see if someone is using plus!", which is different.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-08-2004 at 06:24 PM
quote:Yeah, I agree. But let's say I open a convo with you, and I don't have MP! installed: nothing will be sent along with my name. So it's rather useless that you send the information I won't parse in any way. If I had sent this information, and you don't have MP! nothing would happen, and I would not know whether you haven't MP! installed or you simply disabled the feature.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
So anyway, we mean the same... but I was more referring to other posters (including Patchou) who start talking about "let's see if someone is using plus!", which is different.
If we both had MP! (just like we do
) And I opened a convo with you, I'd send the data and you would send your data, since you know my client can parse it.I understand it's simple formality, but that would decrease load in bot servers, for example.
The other thing I meant with the sunglasses is to not allow people with this option disabled to see if others have Plus, but I think that would be a little dodgy, as the client should decide, although knowing who uses Plus, whether to show "X has MP!" or not.
To manage who does and who doesn't see that you use3 MP is useful, but its kinda overkill, after all, I think.
Hope Patchou finds this useful and understands there's no privacy violation
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by CookieRevised on 03-08-2004 at 06:39 PM
quote:No it isn't, you could've installed plus! but disabled the "show I use plus!". So you will know I have Plus!, but I wouldn't know you have it. (that is without the sunglasses-theory)
Originally posted by KeyStorm
...let's say I open a convo with you, and I don't have MP! installed: nothing will be sent along with my name. So it's rather useless that you send the information I won't parse in any way.
quote:I wouldn't worry about serverload, it would be only a few bytes more with each convo, so...
Originally posted by KeyStorm
I understand it's simple formality, but that would decrease load in bot servers, for example.
But to implement this like we would see isn't a privacy breach, but it is indeed illegal use of the protocol, so...
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-08-2004 at 06:43 PM
No, it isn't. in the name one can write whatever one wants, so there's no violation .
A couple of weird chars don't harm.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by siebe on 03-08-2004 at 06:44 PM
Well it would give us a reason to start using Plus in BOT2K3.. We never used it untill now (well except for a color function) because we do not want the person using it to be dependend on a piece (very nice piece though) of 3rd party software.
If we can easily detect if we can use MP with a user that would be the step to using it. We can only hold xx in our database, and keeping track of everyone's plus use, or preferences is too server consuming I'm afraid.
So yes, I urge you to think about it again...
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Choli on 03-08-2004 at 10:30 PM
uff.. too much discussion here .. anyway, for a bot, I still think the best is ask the user to send a command to the bot to enable (or disable if it's enabled by default) plus features or the bot may send Ping? [msgplus] to see it the contact has plus. That's easy, will work with everyone (with plus 2.50+) (no need to upgrade to 3.0) and don't imply changing the nick, cheating with the protocol or storing per each user who used the bot if s/he has or not plus installed.
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by KeyStorm on 03-08-2004 at 10:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
cheating with the protocol
If you use those weird-functional chars (backward status text, wingdings-font), are you cheating with the protocol? Noway.
So why should this do so?
Well, I think it's a good idea and would open a door to ineroperability and major features for MP! beacuse of a less restrictive compatibility issue
RE: Letting other's know you have Plus! by Choli on 03-08-2004 at 11:08 PM
quote:i meant adding those headers, etc...
Originally posted by KeyStorm
If you use those weird-functional chars (backward status text, wingdings-font), are you cheating with the protocol? Noway.
So why should this do so?
Well, I think it's a good idea and would open a door to ineroperability and major features for MP! beacuse of a less restrictive compatibility issue