So many languages - Printable Version
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+---- Forum: Translation (/forumdisplay.php?fid=24)
+----- Thread: So many languages (/showthread.php?tid=25564)
So many languages by dragonball on 05-20-2004 at 11:28 PM
I see there are discussions about why the valencian language is included when its so close to catalan.
Well I would also say, why have catalan, when 100% of the people living in catalonia have spanish as a mothertounge too, just as catalan. Catalan should be obsolete.. 
Anyway... I guess people should be able to use their prefered language... So what about dialects? I would like the dialect of Stavanger to be added to the languages of MSN Plus. 
Am I asking for too much now? I hope not! 
RE: So many languages by Weyzza on 05-21-2004 at 12:33 AM
If you want to, you can translate Plus! in your own dialect(s) 
.
Unfortunately, like we have discussed before, dialects will not be included to the installer.
Dialects can be posted in Translation forum, if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe some people need it.
RE: So many languages by dragonball on 05-21-2004 at 01:03 AM
Then I'll do it 
Btw, how can one say that valencian is not a dialect of catalan?
RE: So many languages by Weyzza on 05-21-2004 at 01:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Btw, how can one say that valencian is not a dialect of catalan?
I can't answer your question since I know nothing about it
.However, after a quick search, I found this http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=17...d=155088#pid155088
RE: So many languages by matty on 05-21-2004 at 01:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Then I'll do it
Wait for Sunday tho when Messenger Plus! is released, that way your not updating an older Language file
RE: RE: So many languages by dragonball on 05-21-2004 at 01:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Then I'll do it
Wait for Sunday tho when Messenger Plus! is released, that way your not updating an older Language file
Thanks mate! I was about to start now...
RE: RE: So many languages by dragonball on 05-21-2004 at 01:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by thekid
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Btw, how can one say that valencian is not a dialect of catalan?
I can't answer your question since I know nothing about it
However, after a quick search, I found this http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=17...d=155088#pid155088
Hehe... I dunno very much about neither spanish nor catalan, but they also look very similar.. Maybe like norwegian and swedish? 50% of the words have a cutted ending in catalan (Catalán -> Català, and estación -> estació for example),
and ix (ca) -> j (es), baixa -> baja
and ñ (es) -> ny (ca), Cataluña -> Catalunya
Maybe I step on some catalan toes now... Hehe... But take it easy all catalan patriots! Visca Catalunya!
I think I will work on getting Stavangersk registered as a language
Anyone with me? (I like this emoticon)
RE: So many languages by matty on 05-21-2004 at 01:58 AM
Please edit your posts instead of double posting.
You seem to know alot of english why not just translate the Default English File to the language you want
RE: So many languages by Choli on 05-21-2004 at 09:15 AM
Catalan is diferent from spanish and I agree on that language being included in Plus, the same as if there were languages like galician or basque. About valencian, well, it's more similar to catalan than to spanish and that's the reason why people complained about it being included in plus. They said that catalan and valencian are very similar languages (that's true) and that valencian was a dialect of catalan (this can be debatible). Anyway, if valencian has been included in plus and as long as there are some people who cares about translating plus into valencian I think it shouldn't be removed from plus.
quote:just coincidences. take a look at these plus 3 texts:
Originally posted by dragonball
50% of the words have a cutted ending in catalan (Catalán -> Català, and estación -> estació for example),
and ix (ca) -> j (es), baixa -> baja
and ñ (es) -> ny (ca), Cataluña -> Catalunya
salir (es) -> eixir (ca)
por favor (es) -> si us plau (ca)
ventana (es) -> finestra (ca)
añadir (es) -> Afegeix (ca)
RE: RE: So many languages by dragonball on 05-21-2004 at 12:29 PM
quote:just coincidences. take a look at these plus 3 texts:
Originally posted by Choli
and ix (ca) -> j (es), baixa -> baja
and ñ (es) -> ny (ca), Cataluña -> Catalunya
salir (es) -> eixir (ca)
por favor (es) -> si us plau (ca)
ventana (es) -> finestra (ca)
añadir (es) -> Afegeix (ca)
Yeah.. I know that there are many words that are very diffrent in catalan, and that talking catalan is quite diffrent from spanish (broader L's, no arabic sounds etc), and the sentences looks more like a mixture of spanich, french and maybe italian... And por favor can also be per favor? And many v's change to b's? Hehe... Interesting the language situation in Catalonia
Some day I want to learn both Spanish and Catalan.I also agree that Catalan should be a part of the included languages in msgplus, but if Valencian is included, then also other dialects...
Btw, anyone who knows this:
1. How many people talk and write Valencian?
2. People from other parts of spain, how well do they understand Catalan (without learned it yet).
And by all means, I do love catalans and their culture... Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing etc)...
RE: So many languages by Choli on 05-21-2004 at 01:45 PM
quote:more or less the same as in the case of catalan
Originally posted by dragonball
How many people talk and write Valencian?
in this map, the Comunidad valenciana (where valencian is spoken) is in blue. btw, i live where the red circle is
quote:that depends.... catalan isn't a very complex language for spanish people. (at least if they only want to understand it)
Originally posted by dragonball
People from other parts of spain, how well do they understand Catalan (without learned it yet).
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing, bloodfiestas etc)...
![[Image: headbang.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/headbang.gif)
catalan's culture is the same as spanish'
RE: RE: So many languages by dragonball on 05-21-2004 at 02:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing, bloodfiestas etc)...
catalan's culture is the same as spanish'
No way! I though bullfighing had nothing to do with catalan culture, and that catalans didnt attend to it
RE: So many languages by KeyStorm on 05-21-2004 at 02:38 PM
quote:Nope: take a look at Torrente, there are lots of Españolitos but I don't know about any real Catalan Torrente
Originally posted by Choli
catalan's culture is the same as spanish'
.Btw, dragonball, you should know that some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered. But, tbh, you hardly need to be able to speak Spanish to live well in Catalonia.
And let's point out some things about dialects:
Dialects are exactly the same as their mother-languages. Any word in a dialect exists in the mother language. For example, Choli said quit is 'eixir' in Catalan, that's correct, but in Valencia, they're used say 'eixir' and in Catalonia we're used to say 'sortir' and sortir is accepted as 'central Catalan'. However, saying 'eixir' in Catalonia is correct as well. The same with 'açí' - 'aquí' (here).
Valencian is spelled as Catalan, but they are pronounced differently. (f.i., most assonant e and o are not pronounced as a and u in Valencian while they are in Catalan).
Some dialects wrongly pronounce words of the mother language:
Spanish: cansado, Andalusian: [cansao] (=tired)
German: gut, Berlinian: [jut] (=good)
...
So why are Valencians debating about Valencian being a language and not a dialect?
Easy, many words are slightly different from Catalan and thus wrong in Catalan.
Article el is lo (even written)
Verb forms like aparegui are apareixca (would appear)
...and so on.
It's up to you to define it a language or a dialect. It's actually both, as you can see.
I'm always happy that people like to learn Catalan, since many paople in Spain hate it.
RE: So many languages by Choli on 05-21-2004 at 05:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dragonball
No way! I though bullfighing had nothing to do with catalan culture, and that catalans didnt attend to it
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Nope: take a look at Torrente, there are lots of Españolitos but I don't know about any real Catalan Torrente
@ both quote:that's true, but I don't think those people have a computer where install plus
Originally posted by KeyStorm
some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered.
. Btw, the same happens with valencian. Some people only (and i mean only) know, can speak and understand valencian. not spanish 
RE: RE: RE: So many languages by jpg050 on 05-23-2004 at 11:27 AM
quote:
And by all means, I do love catalans and their culture... Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing etc)...
Spanish culture is the same as the catalan one XD Not the one that appears in MI:2 Burning sancts in Seville pretending to be Valencian Fallas (mixed with easter processions) xD
RE: So many languages by KeyStorm on 05-23-2004 at 11:35 AM
I'm afraid it's not.
Dragonball know about catalans, and he knows what he's talking about (not judging MI:2 traditions).
Starting over with language and ending up with traditions Catalans are different from Spaniards (there wouldn't be nationalism if Catalans felt like Spaniards ).
Anyway we're kinda assuming the european culture more as the time passes.
RE: So many languages by jpg050 on 05-23-2004 at 12:03 PM
Then what about the bullfighting thing... thought that myth was desterrated long ago...
Anyway, I must say catalonian culture has two good things...
Barcelona is a better organized city than Madrid...
...and the lyrics in the dragonball songs actually met the rythm and length of the music ... xD
About the nationalisms... I think it's highly exagerated... things like having a C on the car planks instead of an E, or the protests for not having a catalonian national football team (long ago they had the whole Holland one ) seem nonsense to me... but that's not the topic...
About the language, language packs could be made... can't thing of another way...
RE: So many languages by CookieRevised on 05-23-2004 at 12:12 PM
quote:Speaking in general and about dialects, in many (small) regions in the world there are people talk who speak dialects only, and don't understand the proper motherlanguage, or have a hard time speaking it. Mostly these are older people living sometimes a bit isolated...
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Btw, dragonball, you should know that some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered.
quote:Totaly not true. A dialect can contain many words which don't exist in the motherlanguage.
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Dialects are exactly the same as their mother-languages. Any word in a dialect exists in the mother language.
Also, some "signs" of dialects include: words which are spelled differently or the same words but that have a totaly different meaning in the dialect. So this isn't a valid argument of saying that some language isn't a dialect...
RE: So many languages by KeyStorm on 05-23-2004 at 12:13 PM
quote:Sorry? Catalan is a language like Italian, Soumi, and Japanese, full stop.
Originally posted by jpg050
About the language, language packs could be made... can't thing of another way...
Apart from that I thinkl you don't really know about catalan people nor nationalism. Nationalism is a far more complicated thing than what you pointed out.
It's usual that many no nationalists can't catch the sense of it. I'm not blaming you, it's just facts.
As for this nationalism usually means that culture and/or religion are different. Just take a look at Palestina. If they where the same there wouldn't be an open war.
Culture is a result from the history and Catalonia and Spain have different history and hence different cultures.
edit:
quote:
Totaly not true. A dialect can contain many words which don't exist in the motherlanguage.
There isn't a red line between dialect and language. If a dialect has new words it can be considered a language, too. Like in Valencian.
It depends on the government who decide if a dialect is a language or vice-versa. Of course if there are few daily used words and the rest is the same, there is no point in saying "that is a language". Though.
RE: So many languages by jpg050 on 05-23-2004 at 02:07 PM
Let's see, I think you've misunderstood me... about the language packs I was talking in general, not discussing about if catalán is or isn't a language... whether you feel it is, it is. Full stop. The topic was about ther are a lot of languages, and, as long as somone takes his time to translate it, we should include it... It's not nice to inflate the exe tough, so in a matter of time the only solution would be to make language packs, like Nero (tm or whatever) does, with common languages (Europeans in one pack, Asiatic in other... etc, or putting some ones in the main program and the others as packs, it is doubtful that I speak both Spanish and Japanese, but it's more common to use both Spanish and Catalan, e.g.)
About the nationalisms, I just was pointing out some things that I think are an exageration of a nationalism. I accept the solid foundations of the cultural and historic differences, and I'm not discussing them, (Just said that because I think I'm no barbarian and I haven't seen a bullfight in my life) but things like the ones I pointed out seem out of place for a nationalism, and are ther ones that disturb me. (And they are real cases XD) Anyway, everytime we talk about Valencian we end up talking about politics, so let's end this xD
RE: So many languages by KeyStorm on 05-23-2004 at 02:45 PM
quote:I agree, I would personally call som of the signs nationdemagogy
Originally posted by jpg050
the ones I pointed out seem out of place for a nationalism
I'm sorry I misunderstood you, hope you can accept my apologies
.I thought you were talking about Catalan, because we were discussing the cultural differences.
Anyway I heard once language files are compressed a lot and that it's not a matter of size. So I don't see the point of language packs, which would maybe confuse people who are not used to computers.
RE: So many languages by Choli on 05-23-2004 at 02:58 PM
quote:language files (the same as any other files of the plus installation) are compressed in zip format inside the setup program so they take about 10 kb or so each ... however what patchou doesn't want is to include lots translations that only would be used by very few people (because those very many ones multiplied by 10 Kb could be something to care about it).
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Anyway I heard once language files are compressed a lot and that it's not a matter of size.
RE: RE: So many languages by yonki on 05-24-2004 at 10:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:language files (the same as any other files of the plus installation) are compressed in zip format inside the setup program so they take about 10 kb or so each ... however what patchou doesn't want is to include lots translations that only would be used by very few people (because those very many ones multiplied by 10 Kb could be something to care about it).
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Anyway I heard once language files are compressed a lot and that it's not a matter of size.
Juas, parece mentira que esteis discutiendo en ingles. De todos modos si de verdad fuera un problema de tamaño solo se incluiria un español, porque todos lo entendemos(los de america, los catalanes, los valencianos, etc). Pero como ese no es el caso no se pa ke discutir, de todos modos muy divertido
Lo que me extraña es que no este el euskera pk el galego ya lo vi.Los guiris deben de estar flipando, 4 idiomas solo pa los españoles, y todavia falta otro, que orgullo ser español
Keep up the good work!!
RE: So many languages by KeyStorm on 05-24-2004 at 10:54 PM
We are discussing in English because we want anyone to understand what we are talking about (si no fuera así ya estaríamos hablando en otro idioma, collons ).
Dragonball started this thread. He doesn't understand Spanish nor Catalan, but he's interested in these languages. We're replying in Esnglish because it is the best way to get him to understand us 
.
Anyway... maybe you're right about that Spanish would be enough, but Patchou is looking for full internationalization, not slim packages. Most people have broad-band connection, it's almost not a matter of size anymore. And if it is... you will enjoy having waited one hour to download such an excellent bit of software!