Hey guys. I was just thinking around for a new, controversial thread that will undoubtedly bring the world to its knees, and I think I've struck it. What's all your opinions on the whole 'downloading of mp3' versus 'actually going out to the shops and buying the music' issue? I imagine a lot of you use Kazaa and all that, and I myself am against the idea of free downloads of music, because it robs collective artists of billions of dollars every year. What do you guys think?

I only download what I like the sound of, the fact I download from original bought CD's doesn't enter it.  As a UK resident it is illegal to even RIP your own CD's for PERSONAL use.

I have a MP3 player (not an iPod due to my hatred of that brand) and how am I supposed to get MY MUSIC onto it other than to RIP it or download it off the net.  Screw the legality of it Is ay, I paid for it I should be able to RIP it so I can use it on my MP3 player.

I have downloaded songs before, but I 90% of the time go out and buy a CD it is on (Car has a CD Player & parties need CD's) so that should not be a crime.

Just my 2 pennies worth

Whys a song worth 99c? Artists hardly make a profit anyway. Download Korn- Y'all want a single (the video clip) and you'll see some facts.
I download single songs (not albums or dvds e.t.c) because i like that one song, singles are a rip off $5 for one song you will listen to and two or three remixes that you wont, and for $3, you can buy a top quality cd with a case to burn as many songs as u want.

I buy an album when i like the whole, or most of it. when they stop making an album with 3 good tracks and 15 tracks of S*it i'll buy it. Not saying i dont buy CD's because i have two 80-stackers next to my desk, full of audio cd's and a few computer cds. id say 60% of the time i buy the cd.

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Originally posted by Garndell
it is illegal to even RIP your own CD's for PERSONAL use.

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Originally posted by Garndell
it is illegal to even RIP your own CD's for PERSONAL use.

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Originally posted by Wabz

Now I always got told you were allowed to make a copy of your disks.  As long as it is for your own personal use.

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This has been discussed so many times before (and the world still exists... hehehe...).... search the forums

I was just in fact reading this and you may or may not be interested but it might clear up the issue from the Canadian stand point anyway.

Canadian Ruling made June 30

lol, i do it all the time in fact i've downloaded at least 200 songs since march..

i don't buy cds, i just download them on the web.. and so what?

what i usually do:

i go download some songs from a cd and evaluate them

if i see that it worth that i buy the cd so ill go and buy at the shop...

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Originally posted by sim1
what i usually do:

i go download some songs from a cd and evaluate them

if i see that it worth that i buy the cd so ill go and buy at the shop

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Originally posted by toddy
what is the point in that ?

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I've got a supply of almost 3,000 mp3 files of which approx half of them have come from my own collection of bought CD's.

The others are albums that are out of print or extremely hard to find, and as a result the prices for said albums is through the roof (sometimes up to 10 times the price of the original sticker price).

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Originally posted by Tochjo

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Originally posted by toddy
what is the point in that ?

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When you buy the song, money goes to the artist...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
And most often the quality of the song on CD is heaps better then the downoaded song. And also, you are certain you have the complete original song....

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by saying that you clearly show that you don't get what it is all about and don't have a clue about how much it "costs"/takes for the artists to do their stuff....

IMO, very sad if that is your opinion ...

I hope you will think a bit different when you are a bit older, have a job, etc.... I'm sorry, this may sound like "daddy is speaking", but it is the truth....

all rite then, i don't understand "what it is all about"

Both good views.

I download like, 1-4 songs from an album, if I like at least 2 of them, I purchase the CD usually.  If I dont, I just keep the songs I like.

I download songs myself.

If I truelly like all the songs that come from the artist I will buy the CD (Like Weezer)

But if I only like 1 or 2 songs from the artist I will just download them.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
"costs"/takes for the artists to do their stuff...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
I hope you will think a bit different when you are a bit older, have a job

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I'll download music, and then most of the time I will actually go out and buy the CD for the better quality version. This is the same for a lot of users and i'm sure if the RIAA looked at the statistics they would know that since the introduction of P2P sharing programs such as Kazaa that the record sales have been the highest in a long time.

Going by the idea that it is illegal to rip your own cd's depends on your own country's laws. I know here in Australia it is illegal, which also means there is NO point for MP3 players such as the IPOD. It is also still illegal in Australia to record television shows with a VCR. I quote from PCAuthority (Au July Edition):

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Leaving aside the debate on whether its 'right' or 'wrong', it is illegal to rip your CD collection to any digital format for any reason in Australia under the 1968 Copyright Act without first obtaining the copyright owner's permission.

Copyright law in the United States differs significantly from Australia in that many "domestic copying" activities which are legal in the United States are illegal in Australia..... they (Australians) may be under the mistaken belief that private non-commercial copying which is legal for an American is legal for an Australian.

Using your VCR to record a movie on TV tonight and watch it tomorrow night doesn't require a second thought. Except in Australia, doing that is illegal.

.. In Australia, due to the overly and unfairly restrictive "fair dealing" rights granted by the Copyright act, there are practically no legal uses for an MP3 player.

Article 2004, PC Authority

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has anyone been arrested for recording a tv program ???

No, dont think so... It just happens so much the law has degraded and no one really pays any attention to it.

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
No, dont think so... It just happens so much the law has degraded and no one really pays any attention to it.

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Originally posted by toddy

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
No, dont think so... It just happens so much the law has degraded and no one really pays any attention to it.

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oh so people do record then, coz my next question was gonna be, do shops sell blank video's ? as there would be not much use to them if u couldn't record tv

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
I'll download music, and then most of the time I will actually go out and buy the CD for the better quality version. This is the same for a lot of users and i'm sure if the RIAA looked at the statistics they would know that since the introduction of P2P sharing programs such as Kazaa that the record sales have been the highest in a long time.

Going by the idea that it is illegal to rip your own cd's depends on your own country's laws. I know here in Australia it is illegal, which also means there is NO point for MP3 players such as the IPOD. It is also still illegal in Australia to record television shows with a VCR. I quote from PCAuthority (Au July Edition):

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Leaving aside the debate on whether its 'right' or 'wrong', it is illegal to rip your CD collection to any digital format for any reason in Australia under the 1968 Copyright Act without first obtaining the copyright owner's permission.

Copyright law in the United States differs significantly from Australia in that many "domestic copying" activities which are legal in the United States are illegal in Australia..... they (Australians) may be under the mistaken belief that private non-commercial copying which is legal for an American is legal for an Australian.

Using your VCR to record a movie on TV tonight and watch it tomorrow night doesn't require a second thought. Except in Australia, doing that is illegal.

.. In Australia, due to the overly and unfairly restrictive "fair dealing" rights granted by the Copyright act, there are practically no legal uses for an MP3 player.

Article 2004, PC Authority

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Interesting, huh?

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Originally posted by toddy
if all the money when to the artist, minus the cost of the cd n recording the song. i would go out and buy the cd, coz then i kno the money is off to the artist, who as you have said works hard to produce the song.

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what i don't see, is how ppl can sit at the back of a cinema, with a tripod and a camcorder, record films, and not get caught!! outrageous

i still buy the pirates though

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
it still will be stealing if you simply download songs without buying the CD

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I have a Thomson mp3 player that I bought legally in the UK with software to rip CD's included, so I don't really care whether ripping my CDs is legal because its not my job to research information such as that when I can buy the ability to do so in any UK Argos store...They imply it is legal and should not sell goods with no evidence that it is illegal...
The P2P music debate is identical to the taping of music from the radio decades ago, eventually it will dissipate and be regarded as a publicity outlet for music...

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Originally posted by Anubis
I don't really care whether ripping my CDs is legal

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I don't need to buy CD's because in Canada - music downloading is LEGAL

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Originally posted by blade
music downloading is LEGAL

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Originally posted by toddy

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Originally posted by blade
music downloading is LEGAL

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i thought it was still illegal, there was just no way of trackin people beacuse of laws about keeping information. so there was no way to track ip's

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Originally posted by blade

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Originally posted by toddy

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Originally posted by blade
music downloading is LEGAL

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i thought it was still illegal, there was just no way of trackin people beacuse of laws about keeping information. so there was no way to track ip's

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but the courts ruled that in CANADA it's LEGAL....they said it was "...like having a photo-copier in a library full of copyright materials..."

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
And all the money, minus the other costs, goes to the artist.

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Originally posted by toddy
like you don't have speed camera's

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Originally posted by Johnny_Mac

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Originally posted by toddy
like you don't have speed camera's

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Damn canada.

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drunk

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Originally posted by blade
No, that's just here in BC

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It is Law.  It is Illegal to copy any Music without Copyright holders permission.

http://forum.playzen.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4940

&

http://www.pcmag.co.uk/Features/1139612

LEGAL EAGLES: TAKE CARE TO STAY WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE LAW
British copyright law is one of the tightest in the world, designed to prevent any copying of original work.

"You are not allowed to make a substantial copy of any copyright work, either as a whole or any component part," explains Anna Booy, a solicitor specialising in intellectual property law. There are very few exceptions to this.

Teachers and students are allowed to cite quotes out of copyright works for study purposes, and critics may reprint short sections in reviews.

Well, downloading a song IS illegal, as CookieRevised said. However, take a look at the inflation.

The way a typical $15.00 should be priced:

$0.80 MAXIMUM per CD
$0.50 MAXIMUM per case (these are very cheap, look at the prices at your local store for CD cases)
$2.00 for the artist for the "Thought in there song"
$2.00 for the recording company and studio time
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$5.30 is the price you must figure a CD should be

Thats very affordable, Plus it will generate more revenue. (More people will buy something cheaper than something expensive).  Multiply that and the artist/record company/cd companies/cd case companies get $5,300,000 PER every 1,000,000 Albums Sold.

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Originally posted by eXoenDo
Well, downloading a song IS illegal, as CookieRevised said. However, take a look at the inflation.

The way a typical $15.00 should be priced:

$0.80 MAXIMUM per CD
$0.50 MAXIMUM per case (these are very cheap, look at the prices at your local store for CD cases)
$2.00 for the artist for the "Thought in there song"
$2.00 for the recording company and studio time
=========
$5.30 is the price you must figure a CD should be

Thats very affordable, Plus it will generate more revenue. (More people will buy something cheaper than something expensive).  Multiply that and the artist/record company/cd companies/cd case companies get $5,300,000 PER every 1,000,000 Albums Sold.

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Originally posted by eXoenDo
Well, downloading a song IS illegal, as CookieRevised said. However, take a look at the inflation.

The way a typical $15.00 should be priced:

$0.80 MAXIMUM per CD
$0.50 MAXIMUM per case (these are very cheap, look at the prices at your local store for CD cases)
$2.00 for the artist for the "Thought in there song"
$2.00 for the recording company and studio time
=========
$5.30 is the price you must figure a CD should be

Thats very affordable, Plus it will generate more revenue. (More people will buy something cheaper than something expensive).  Multiply that and the artist/record company/cd companies/cd case companies get $5,300,000 PER every 1,000,000 Albums Sold.

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These figures are ridiculous. What are they based on, 8,000,000 singles sold? 25 sold? Its impossible to use figures to prove a point like this. It all works on economies of scale.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
And where are the printing costs for the booklets and leaflets, and where are the costs for the promo, and where are the costs for the distributers, etc... etc...?

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That's beside the point and only an example of missing costs (like merchandising, which goes together with promo, but is also needed to get a CD on the market, and I can think of more things...)

But what I wanna show is that such calculations (widely used by many people to show that a CD should costs almost nothing) are in fact very very incomplete and don't show the whole picture....

That doesn't change the fact that some CD's are indeed to expensive or that some stores charge to much money for some albums... But overall, a CD is priced very fairly... be sure of that....

Also, the arguments that selling a CD on the net is cheaper so why not use the same prices in the stores are wrong. If a CD is ONLY sold on the net then you cut out many costs (like store-profit, distributers-profits/costs, people to do the promo "on the street", etc...) So that's why CD's sold ONLY on the net are often cheaper. That doesn't mean they can sell them for the same price in the store because that includes more costs....

like some artists say themselfs: "If the song isn't officialy put on the net and you download it, then that's stealing our hard earned money. But if that illegal downloaded song makes you buy the CD, then that's great, but still stays a bit wrong... Downloading full CD's of the net is stupid and keeps us from earning the money to make more music." <= collective quote from some bands currently playing on Rock Werchter...

They are also forgetting Marketing, Gigs and the fact that some have to HIRE a band to make it (Dave Grohl doesn't of course).

On this topic.

I'm a bit pissed actually.

I bought a single off MSN Music (UK) yesterday. I downloaded the track, which I only recieved 1 track off a normal single (which has 3 tracks... others usually being B sides)

In the United Kingdom that CD (with 2 additional tracks) would have cost me £2.99 (or less) from a store. This one track from it cost me 99p. Fair enough, I was happy with that. I wanted to support music.

Now I come to put my new downloaded and fully paid for single on a CD. And it tells me I'm not allowed as its a violation of the copyright?

My point is I should have just have borrowed my mates copy of the CD and copied the thing for myself and used my own 99p disk.

I thought I'd do a decent thing and buy a single online to support the industry, when in the end im gonna copy my mates CD so i can use it in my CD player anyway! I dont see how this system will work.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Also, the arguments that selling a CD on the net is cheaper so why not use the same prices in the stores are wrong. If a CD is ONLY sold on the net then you cut out many costs (like store-profit, distributers-profits/costs, people to do the promo "on the street", etc...) So that's why CD's sold ONLY on the net are often cheaper. That doesn't mean they can sell them for the same price in the store because that includes more costs

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Originally posted by eXoenDo
Well, downloading a song IS illegal, as CookieRevised said

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Originally posted by eXoenDo
The way a typical $15.00 should be priced:

$0.80 MAXIMUM per CD
$0.50 MAXIMUM per case (these are very cheap, look at the prices at your local store for CD cases)
$2.00 for the artist for the "Thought in there song"
$2.00 for the recording company and studio time
=========
$5.30 is the price you must figure a CD should be

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Originally posted by Johnny_Mac
On this topic.

I'm a bit pissed actually.

I bought a single off MSN Music (UK) yesterday. I downloaded the track, which I only recieved 1 track off a normal single (which has 3 tracks... others usually being B sides)

In the United Kingdom that CD (with 2 additional tracks) would have cost me £2.99 (or less) from a store. This one track from it cost me 99p. Fair enough, I was happy with that. I wanted to support music.

Now I come to put my new downloaded and fully paid for single on a CD. And it tells me I'm not allowed as its a violation of the copyright?

My point is I should have just have borrowed my mates copy of the CD and copied the thing for myself and used my own 99p disk.

I thought I'd do a decent thing and buy a single online to support the industry, when in the end im gonna copy my mates CD so i can use it in my CD player anyway! I dont see how this system will work.

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Originally posted by Garndell
DRM (Digital Rights Management) strikes.  Thisis M$'s new angle on MP3's designed to stop just what you are doing, copying to a CD.  By doing that you would Violate UK Copyright Laws.  It sucks yeah, but it's what is happening nowadays.

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There is lots of debates going on on the net about DRM and what it means.  The majority it seems see it as a bad move.  It means MP3 players will have to be DRM compliant in the future which could up prices on them.  £2.99 for a single, seems like a lot but the last single I bought (The Music - Take The long Road And Walk It) has a bonus track called Alone.  I really like that song & if i'd downloaded the single i'd have missed out on the "B-Side".

I would much rather have MP3's than CD's when walking in the summer.  Carrying all the CD's I'd need to get the songs I like best would mean filling a bag with them.  Thieves would try & have a field day (they can try but will fail) and would you want to carry a bag full of CD's everywhere?

CD's are great for at home but not exactly that portable are they.

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Originally posted by Garndell
CD's are great for at home but not exactly that portable are they.

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Well im not for or against either strongly, i do both.  I download songs on Kazaa but not major downloading like *cough my bros cough* and i buy cds so im stuck between the two

i dont see why companies in their right mind would try and make money off SELLING songs when you can get them for free. 

my opinion on IPOD:

Ipod is primairily an american based product * i think* but they are still sellin in Canada.  The thing is tho, there are no LEGAL ways of downloading music to your Ipod in canada.  So my theory is, buy an Ipod, download illegal music, and then when the company sues me i will sue Ipod and make money because they failed to set up a proper way of downloadin music to their product legally..

right ill stop now... woooo

I just have 1 thing to say people...
Who is going to buy, for ex. , a house compilation for 40 € ,kinda... (4 guys)...when that same cd can be downloaded for ZERO on the net, kinda :many: (lots of them) listen copyright defender guys..there's no way millions of people are going to start buying cd's( 'cause they just know that no1 is going to get them...e supose ...

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Originally posted by ClassroomDevil
i dont see why companies in their right mind would try and make money off SELLING songs when you can get them for free.

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Originally posted by ClassroomDevil
So my theory is, buy an Ipod, download illegal music, and then when the company sues me i will sue Ipod and make money because they failed to set up a proper way of downloadin music to their product legally..

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i donwload most songs, but if i really like the artist i will normally just buy the album.
i think £10-£15 is pretty reasonable for an ALBUM containing about 15-20 song., but £5 for one single containing 3 songs is just a rip off!, so downloadin is a hell of a lot betta

a good way to get music is buy a big and go to www.conect.com/canada

Meh, okay, add $2.00 more to cover Cover Design, Printing, and Promos, your still at $7.30, when the average american CD is $15.00+

, your forgetting, every CD pays for the "big picture", so that cover designer is prolly getting a lot more than there design is worth, just cause they're being paid PER CD.

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Originally posted by eXoenDo
, your forgetting, every CD pays for the "big picture", so that cover designer is prolly getting a lot more than there design is worth, just cause they're being paid PER CD.

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Originally posted by Johnny_Mac
..and like CD's for the keepsake

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Originally posted by Johnny_Mac


And £5 for a single? Huh?! According to The Official UK Charts Company Website, the min price for a single CD is £1.20; otherwise the single is not eliabgable for entry. So surely no one would charge £5 for a single.

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Originally posted by dom.

Your forgetting that CDs go off. Apparently, the stuff used in the insert reacts with the stuff in the CD and after approx. 20 years, the CD becomes unuseable.

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Originally posted by Vazza
I read that it was disks made way back like when CD's were first made

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£5 for an E.P. Maybe...

But I am yet to see a single with its B-sides at anything over £3.50.

i think that downloading music is fine as it promotes the artist, some popular not, but from the artist's view Aren't they making alot of money?, there just being greedy

They are not being greedy.... (the people who download illegal are greedy)
And it certainly doesn't make them a lot of money...

But...
Many artists are happy that their music is spread in that way, but at the same time they aren't happy about the fact that people will download their songs without paying, because all in all, they ARE loosing money because of it! (and you can argue about the costs of CD's, about your principles, etc... all ya want, that doesn't change the fact that artists loose money because of the illegal downloads).

On the other hand, big artists, don't need that kind of spreading/promotion anymore and they don't have anything to gain  about the whole thing...

And this trend can be seen more and more btw: Small artists often put there songs on the net, because it IS a good place to promote. Although many people will take advantage of it, the true fan will buy the CD nevertheless. But big artists often don't do it anymore, because they don't need that kind of promotion anymore....


Thus...

Money and promotion aren't the same! You can make a lot of promotion, but loose a lot of money at the same time. And this is certainly true on the net.

The idea that if you make enough promotion you will make enough money is a bit utopian...

first, to address every single comment about how little CD's cost to produce and how much ppl charge for them, the basic logic within that is flawed

ur arguement is basicly like walking into a resturant and asking them how they can charge you $10 bucks for a plate of spaghetti and meatballs when u noe that the raw materials would only cost $3 per say, ur completeling forgetting the ppl who work in the studios recording the songs, the mixers, the editors, the ppl who work at the factory that makes the CD's, the truck drivers who ship them, the person who stocks CD's at ur music store, the cashier and so on and so forth, not to mention the utilites involved in running these operations, maybe u don't realize that they rely on this industry to keep them afloat and alive. The music industry employs millions of ppl and to say that it is "unfair" for them to charge you $15 Canadian Dollars for a CD is unreasonalbe in itself

next, is to everyone who thinks that you can just download music ALL THE TIME forever, if everyone were like you, you do realize that there would be no more new music in the world. this may come as a complete shock to those naive and arrogant enough to believe that downloading music has absolutely no impact on anything and that recording labels are just greedy. has it ever occured to you that people are just trying to make a living? Although i do download music, i also almost always buy the artists CD after, unless i find that they are just a fluke. this way, i can assure that more music will be recorded in the future. does this make the artist or the labels seem so greedy? people work hard just to make music. harder than most of us will probably ever know. to ppl like toddy and johny, i hope you realize that nothing in this world is truly free. wut if one day, u lost your job because the world was cheap and decided the service/product could be gotten for free? maybe that would open your eyes to how the world really works. but for now, you just keep doing what you do but remember that "what goes around, comes around" or you could just try buying an album, maybe you might enjoy it, you never know.