Hey mates, Valencian and catalan are the same language!!! And as a valencian, and a linguist, I'm very ofended that you separate them as different language. That offended that I stopped the downloading of the msn plus and I'm not gonna download it until this is corrected!

Just ask any linguist, and they will inform you. And if you want to keep different translation (because of the minimmum dialect differences) just name it Catalan (Valencian) or something similar. As if you make the diference between American and British English. You don't call it American and British and classify them as separate languages!

And another thing: I'm not very happy with msn because an other reason: it is SO difficult to get a link to complain about your services, and that make users feel quite abandonned!

well if u tell us what complaints u have about messenger...ill try and pass them on for you


also we have Catalan and Valencian becuase we have translators for both, and it would be illogical to have 2, they must be different

The complaint I would like to do is that of you considering Valencian and catalan different languages.

What does "they must be different" mean? Have you check it with professionals? Of course, if you tell me you want a valencian tranlation about something, i would call it valencian, but if I had known you had already one called catalan, i would adivice you about the situation: they are the same language! Is like american english or british one, if you ask for a british translator, he/she would translate into his/her dialect, but will never consider it as a different language!

I don't understand the reason why you wrote "they must be different" without checking! I'm not writing here because I have nothing else to do, I'm actually very busy and I'm spending this minutes just because I'm really ofended of seeing my language devided in msn, and plus, reading the replies you sent me, because they are nonesense! I though msn, as part of microsoft, was a serious stuff, and at least, before replying anything, it checked it with professionals, that is, linguists!!!

And I would be very gratefull if you pass this complain on somewhere where users are listent properly!

First of all, this forum has nothing to do with MSN!

This forum is about Messenger Plus! an addon for MSN Messenger. Messenger Plus! is written by Patchou and he, nor Messenger Plus!, nor this forum, nor people on this forum have anything todo with MSN, nor with Microsoft...

Messenger Plus! is not MSN Messenger. Like said before Messenger Plus! is an addon that adds some extra features to MSN Messenger. Both are independant programs... MSN Messenger is written by the company Microsoft/MSN and Messenger Plus! is written by 1 guy named Patchou....

Second...

What your are talking about are the languages supported in Messenger Plus! (so, nothing todo with msn).

Those languages are made by common people who like the fact that their language is supported, not by professionals. We (the translators) don't get any money for doing that and we put a lot of time in it to make it as good as possible. All this, just because we like Messenger Plus! and just for fun....

Personaly, I realy can't understand why you would be offended if a language/dialect/whatever is supported (unless politics comes in mind).

I don't think any British person would be offended if both British English and American English was supported....

And the same goes for Dutch for example, you can split that up in Dutch Dutch (Netherlands) and Flemish Dutch (Belgium). And if that is called "Dutch", "Flemish", "Dutch (Flemish)", "Belgian" or whataver, I would never be offended by it. How could I? They only remark I could make about it is that it is similar to American English and British English...

Third....

Normaly a pure "dialect" wouldn't be put into Messenger Plus! (otherwise you could add 10000's of languages). The discussion about Valencian being put in or not or being a dialect or not is an ongoing discussion, like there are others (PT Portugues vs. BR Portuguese). If you search the forums you can see/read that...


Fourth....

If you don't want to use Messenger Plus! just because it has Valencian in it, then so be it, nobody is going to force you, but personaly I think that is a bit of a lame excuse... I realy suggest you to reconsider this as Messenger Plus! is a very great addon and nobody forces you to choose Catalan/Valencian/whatever as your userinterface language. If you don't like a language, then don't use the language (heck you can even delete the translationfile if you like)...

quote:

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Originally posted by laiabe
And another thing: I'm not very happy with msn because an other reason: it is SO difficult to get a link to complain about your services, and that make users feel quite abandonned!

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Translations are done by volunteers, -I am Catalan translator-. There were some people who wanted to create a Valencian translation. Hence by popular demand it was accepted.
You can search the forums for the word "Valencian". And you'll find threads like "Valencian [Updated translation]" were this topic was widely discussed.

We don't want to start the same discussion over and over again each time someone feels like to complain about Valencian being in MP!.

Anyway, please contact Valencian translators and solve with them any controversial issue about the addition of Valencian or the way to add it.

I mean, the translation is done, so why should we leave those guys alone with their translation? And think that you may choose the best between two Catalan versions.

OK, understood, this is an individual thing.

And yes, I'm offended because there's a lot of politics behind this, that's the only reason. Of course a dialect is a language, actually, a language is a summ of dialects, and noone speaks A LANGUAGE, everyone of us speaks our personal dialect in our regional area, in the dialect of a certain period of time, etc. I'm a linguist (and a Catalan translator specialized in Valencian dialect), and don't need dialectology lessons.

What I was trying to say since the beggining is that if anybody wants to remark the Valencian peculiarities of the Catalan language (the dialect from Catalonia has different peculiarities, like others), it could be named like "Catalan (Valencian)", but as it is now is as if they were 2 different languages, and that's the fact that can offend Valencians (and Catalans).

I thought this was a place run by msn, and translated by professionals, that's why I was complaining that hard. If it's a personal place, then take my opinion as a suggestion and a recomendation to be more "professional".

Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.

ok, noted...

but as it is now, sublanguages (let's call it that for now) are named by there local name in Messenger Plus!, not by their languagegroup (if that is the correct word). You have to look at it at the users perspective. People don't say "I can speak Catalan (Valencian)", they say "I can speak Valencian". And that is what is used in Messenger Plus!...

So we have (or could have) "Brazilian" and not "Portuguese (Brazil)", "Portuguese", "Dutch", "Flemish" (and not Dutch (Belgium)), etc... (<= not in English but translated to their own local language)
Hence "Valencià" and "Català"...

And doing it this way is equaly proffesional as doing it the other way.

Well, Valencians and Catalans felt offended when it was accepted.
My personal opinion (as I posted in my second archived post -hehe, long ago-): Let them do. It's not a real essential thing to decide if it could be considered as a language or rather as a dialect. You'll agree that it's somewhere between. This discussion also occurs in real life. (wait, I'm not a linguist ). I mean, Valencian is more different from Catalan than other Catalan dialects (well, since there's more lilkely to be more specialists in Valencian than in Central Catalan, Alguer Catalan or Northern Catalan, right?).

So among all Catalan dialects, Valencian seems to be a kind of special dialect. (ok, cleared below)

I don't think you should feel offended as Valencian anyway . I understand you care about things being called as they should ('Catalan (Valencia)', for instance), but seriously there is no real point to feel offended. I ratrhe believe Valencian is Catalan, but I don't see like people ar standing on my toes in translating MP! into Catalan . And if some believe Valencian should also be a translation (no matter if it's a dialect, a language or something between both), let them do. Some Valencians might want to use it, and some other Valencians will choose Catalan.

We obviously can't add every dialect (be proud your speciality is included ), but maybe some exceptions can be done.

I hope this cleared somehow the reasons why it was added and solved this controversial issue a bit.

Edit: Btw, There are less differences between AmE and BrE than between Catalan and Valencian, aren't there?

The thing is that when you say 'I can speak Valencian" you are using it as a synonim of "Catalan", it's inclusive, not exclusive. If you do create as different languages Brazilian/Portuguese/Flamish/Dutch/American/English/Scotish/Australian/French/Quebequian etc, then ok, everything would be understandable. But again, as it is, it's very confusing and implies politics, while languages in itself shouldn't have nothing to do with politics! But if you consider just English, or french, etc, then it's not logical.

quoted: So among all Catalan dialects, Valencian seems to be a kind of special dialect.

That's not true: Valencian is almost the same as the Catalan spoken in Lleida and in Tortosa and in Aragon, some people which are not experts could not tell the difference between someone from Tortosa and another from Castelló, for example. And that's not that far away from the central catalan spoken in Barcelona and surroundings. There are more variation in the Balearic islands or Alguer. The Valencian peculiarity are the politics, which again, they should be left apart!

Well, I don't see politics in calling it Valencian. The language spoken in Valencia, besides from Spanish, is Valencian (a variant/dialect of Catalan). Noone in Catalonia speaks Valencian Catalan as long as they're not Valencians themselves. Hence it doesn't imply any political meaning, just geographical, in my honest opinion.
But it's true, political tendences use to deploy language as a sword for their cause and, in this case, claim Valencian to be a language or a dialect, leaving any philologic proof out.

Edit: use the Edit button

Thanks for clearing that for me
At least it's the most spoken dialect, and it's true that it has similarities with some dialects of Teruel (that all I can say).

The name is not the problem, the problem is the use of it. If it's between other names like Spanish, Portuguese, Engish atc, and plus, there's catalan around, it seems you are referring to an other language, that's why I suggested either to put ALL the names of different languages (American, English, Australian, etc) and keep valencian and catalan (plus balearian), or name it Catalan (valencian).
And believe me, the name is SO politized, that's why is always worthy to be specific.

quote:

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Originally posted by laiabe
the name is SO politized

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quote:

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Originally posted by laiabe
American

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[off topic] oh no!! another catalan/valencian thread [/off topic]

hi laiabe, i'm the spanish (spain) translator of plus (just so you know me). I only want to say one thing (i'm a bit tired of these threads, there have been quite a lot of them; you can search them and read my replies).

About it being a political issue: I don't tihnk so. Translators (of both catalan and valencian) have put all their effort in make a good translation and i'm sure they weren't thinking about if this or that is or not a dialect or if they should or not put this because of politic reasons...


And the more important part of people related to plus: its users. They just want the software being translated in a language where they feel better reading it. I don't think users think about politic when they choose the language. For example, I can use plus in english, catalan, valencian and spanish-latino; however I choose spanish spain. Why? because i feel more confortable in that language and don't care about anything more.

So, sumarizing, as KeyStrom has said: if they (the valencian translators) have done a work and spent their time; why remove it or change it? just let that translation be there. It doesn't hurt anyone.

pd: oh the post is longer than what i wanted to write

Well, I'm Disablez, the other Spanish translator. And having in mind that I'm surely going to get a ban someday, I'll just say things in a calm way... not exactly the way I'm thinking them but...

Why the hell can't you stop complaining about Valencian ? THIS IS A DAMNED WEBSITE ABOUT A MESSENGER ADDON, not a demonstration nor a congress, most people here don't give a **** about politics, if you can't really live with Valencian calling itself Valencian, go see Bill Gates and tell him your disgraces, or buy a van and create your own Catalan Genetically Enhanced Liberation Army, but stop it here ok ?

As people has said, the language has been accepted popularly, even if it's a dialect, even if it's not recognized as a full language, so let it be called whatever the author wanted to call it, or the people who uses it wanted to call it. Of course disliking it is acceptable, but being offended ? Grow up a bit, man, surely there are things and injustices in this world that deserve your hatred, just a little more. You just remind me about those people that can't speak in Spanish to you, knowing you don't know a word about Catalan. Little children. I'm Spanish and I'm talking in English here, so everyone can understand me, that's what a language is for, even if UK has Gibraltar so I'm totally angry at English people so I can't speak English... plain absurd.

</IRONY MODE ON>
And if we're going to extremes, Spanish is the one and only language aceepted as official in all Spanish territory. You all HAVE TO know it, you all can use it, so let's kill Euskara, Catalan (badly talked Spanish, btw), Valencian, Catalan(Valencia)... even Galician if someone dares to translate it...

</IRONY MODE OFF>

Que, como he dicho otras veces, una cosa es tener una cultura propia, y otra llorar porque las matrículas llevan una E, o porque no me aceptan el carnet vasco...

Will this be the last Valencian thread? Will I be banned?  Never know...

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
Catalan (badly talked Spanish, btw)

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I agree with jpg050's post.

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
or buy a van and create your own Catalan Genetically Enhanced Liberation Army,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tarry
Una cosa es que no te guste que Franco haya muerto, o que no te guste que haya otras realidades furea de las que vives, la otra es que te pongas en un rincón a cerrarte en tu mundo y veas cosas que no son.

La única palabra para definirte no la voy a usar porque me banearán.

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Ironia - n.f. Forma de burla fina y disimulada que consiste en modificar o cambiar el valor de las palabras, en hacer entender lo contrario de lo que se piensa.

En cuanto a Franco, mira q cosas q ni le conocí...  y de facha tengo poco... así que por ahí lo siento pero no. Si le guardas rencor personalmente, o te han educado en la gloria "catalufa", que no catalana (esto último contado por un catalán), quizá eres tú el que debiera entender que hay otras realidades, que estás dentro de otros mundos, que uno puede ser catalán y poder hablar en español, en gallego o en lo q se le salga de ... mientras que el otro le entienda...  que un lenguaje es para ENTENDERSE, no para usarlo políticamente, hacerse el guay en el congreso hablando en catalán, ni para cabrearse por llamarlo de un modo u otro, es lo mas ridiculo del mundo... si tan liberal es defender una lengua propia (con lo cual estoy de acuerdo), por qué tanto rollo con reprimir, fagocitar y reclamar el valenciano como versión cutre del catalán? A ver si, después de todo, no voy a ser yo el amante de Franco...

 

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
And if we're going to extremes, Spanish is the one and only language aceepted as official in all Spanish territory.

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quote:

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Artículo 3
1. El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. Todos los españoles tienen
el deber de conocerla y el derecho a usarla.
2. Las demás lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas
Comunidades Autónomas de acuerdo con sus Estatutos.
3. La riqueza de las distintas modalidades lingüísticas de España es un patrimonio
cultural que será objeto de especial respeto y protección.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
Que, como he dicho otras veces, una cosa es tener una cultura propia, y otra llorar porque las matrículas llevan una E, o porque no me aceptan el carnet vasco...

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Key, como bien ha dicho Choli, eso está dentro del modo ironía... , de todos modos el artículo 3 no me contradice, yo decía que el español es el único idioma oficial de TODA España... 

And if we're going to extremes,


Spanish is the one and only language aceepted as official in all Spanish territory. You all HAVE TO know it, you all can use it

El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. Todos los españoles tienen el deber de conocerla y el derecho a usarla.


no sé si bien traducido o no... pero se parece bastante...

Y lo de la política, en el último thread que contesté, que entre medias habrá habido otros pocos,  ya expliqué esa frase del carnet vasco... que una cosa es reclamar una herencia cultural, que me parece perfecto, y otra entretenerse en pijadas políticas de si se llama Catalán valencianítico o catalán a secas... o si en la matrícula pone tal o cual... o me dirás q no es absurdo armar la q se arma por una matrícula que ni la va a mirar nadie ? ¿O que cada 15 dias haya que escuchar rollos sobre el valenciano ? Espero que los chinos no empiecen a hablar sobre si es mejor el Big5 y el simplificado es impuro...

quote:

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[irony]
Spanish is a wrongly talked Arabic and jpg050 is a real Torrente
[/irony]

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Well, I go on in English, not because I don't want do speak Spanish, what would be stupid, but because I want anyone else interested in this pseudo-ligual-political-cultural conflict to get my point, at least.

3.3 says any culture in Spain must be respected as well as the co-official languages. If some people feel comfortable to have MP! in the language they are used to (that doesn't depend on politics or on whatever the COnstitution says) they have the right to use it in MP!.

If that language is spoken by many poeple potentially interested in having that language included in MP! it should be included.

Let's not convert this into a political thread, ok
Thanks.

Edit:

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
que ni la va a mirar nadie

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quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
pijadas políticas de si se llama Catalán valencianítico o catalán a secas...

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Perfect for me.

What about Wikipedia's opinion?

Entenc perfectament que hi ha altres realitats, per exemple no deixo de ser català per continuar el post que estic escrivint en anglès.

I don't think if you speak Spanish you are less Catalan. I'm speaking in English now and I feel myself Catalan.

Pero nadie me ha educado para ser así. Mis padres no son independentistas, yo sí. A mis padres no les importa si hablo catalán o francés, a mi sí. Los profesores de mi escuela nunca dijeron nada sobre qué les parecía la autodeterminación del pueblo catalán o más aún, sobre su opresión, en cuanto a lengua y cultura, pero yo sí lo digo. Es más, ellos se limitaron a decir la verdad: que se habla la misma lengua desde Salses a Guardamar y desde Fraga a Maó, la misma lengua y la misma cultura, oprimidas y reprimidas por los españolitos que piensan como tú.

Nada, nada, que tens la ment tancada.

Lo weno de las wikipedias es que son muy objetivas...

Pues suerte en tu lucha contra la opresión judeo-masónica, yo dejo la política que he visto pegatinas del toro de Osborne de oferta... pero... el mismo respeto que pides, dádselo a los que llaman valenciano al valenciano (que pal caso es de Valencia).

En fin, Borja Díaz, una cruzada cada día...

(Sin ironías... que me parece muy bien, pero que este no es el sitio, asi q paso de seguir)

Es decir, que llamas a los catalanes igual que los llamaba Franco. [irony] [/irony].

Pues eso, que... ARRIBA FRANCO! Pero bien arriba, para que no moleste.

No te termina de entrar lo de la ironia eh... ains...

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
Lo weno de las wikipedias es que son muy objetivas...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Choli

quote:

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Originally posted by jpg050
Well; as always these catalan vs valencian threads go too far and end with stupid discussions.... It doesn't worth continuing with the discussion (just my opinion)

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I Agree With this.

Please let the translators make his job, at the end the user decides which translation likes more.
The Catalan is a very GOOD translation, but  i prefer the Valencian translation because is nearest to me.

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Summary: Users do the translating, if users want a particular language to suit their needs, then so be it.

Thread talked to death, and now closed.