Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] - Printable Version
-Shoutbox (https://shoutbox.menthix.net)
+-- Forum: MsgHelp Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=58)
+--- Forum: Skype & Technology (/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+---- Forum: Tech Talk (/forumdisplay.php?fid=17)
+----- Thread: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] (/showthread.php?tid=29557)
Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by KeyStorm on 08-05-2004 at 10:31 PM
In the last month there have been many changes in the browser-world.
After the red alert of MSIE about all security holes and bugs in it and the respawn of the old good browse-war, in which other browsers have been re-discovered and like mystified, sometimes.
Facts are facts: IE has losed average 5% of presence after many years of a predominantly stable 95%, even when IE was cause of trials in which it was reckoned as a monopolizing activity.
In the meanwhile a new Gecko based browser (like Netscape and Mozilla) appeared as the new face of the Mozilla tech front-end: Firefox. With the alerts its version 0.8 increased its presence a 20% in a couple of months.
But...
In 5 weeks there have been 4 updates of Firefox where many security-related bugs (some even fosilized old Gecko-kernel ones) have been discovered and fixed: 0.9, 0.9.1, 0.9.2, 0.9.3...
Doesn't it look like as in Microsoft where any security bug is being patched?
Should we understand this since it is a (late) beta version?
PS: I would not like to turn this into a BrowseWars-Thread. This is completely about Firefox. Do not try to advertise other browsers with better features, less bugs or whatever. Just post what you think about Firefox' evolution and future 
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? by Jeronimo on 08-05-2004 at 11:17 PM
Sadly I can't vote in your poll as none of the answers really suit how I feel about Firefox. I shall endeavour to elaborate 
I think as Firefox gains popularity, more and more bugs will be discovered. Many of these will be small, and some like recently will be quite critical and require immediate fixes.
The latest bug fixes were made before any code was written to exploit it. And such bugs are fixed fairly rapidly and distributed accordingly. The question is, should we worry that the Firefox developers are keeping us safe, albeit by releasing new versions within a relatively small space of time? I am happy to download new versions when they are released. People on slow connections might not be so willing to do so however.
Your point about Firefox being a beta (or preview as Mozilla like to call it) is quite an interesting one. On the one hand you could argue that since Firefox hasn't yet reached version 1, update and bugs are to be expected. On the other hand, you will find people that will argue that major flaws should be less frequent as we get closer to a final release version.
People will always compare Firefox to IE, which is not surprising considering IE is what most people are "switching" from. IE is currently in its sixth revision, so there has been far more time to refine it and fix bugs and security flaws. Does Firefox benefit from security from obscurity? Is it less popular and thus less subject to attacks? Will we see a vast number of new bugs as Firefox grows in popularity? To be honest I think not. In any large piece of software, you will get bugs, and things people are not happy with. A web browser is a huge piece of technology, even though it can seem simple to some people. I think the Firefox developers are doing a great job.
Firefox is doing what Opera, Netscape and even Mozilla haven't done. And that is to seriously start to threaten IE's dominance on the global stage. The amount of press that Firefox gets is untrue for something yet to hit version 1.0
We can have all the ifs and buts, but lets look at the now. Currently I would say Firefox is more secure than IE. Currently. Currently Firefox outstrips IE for features that I find genuinely useful. Anyone who uses Firefox as their main browser does not like going back to IE. I sure don't! In short, at this current point in time, Firefox is easily the best browser currently available for me personally.
Finally I would say not to worry. Bug will be found, bugs will be fixed. Its that simple. If in future things change, then things change, lets not get over excited about it. Heck, just over 18 months ago, I had never even heard of Firefox (probably because it was called Firebird back then )
![[Image: getfirefox_large2.png]](http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/buttons/getfirefox_large2.png)
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? by bach_m on 08-06-2004 at 12:10 AM
* bach_m is on the .9 branch
its got better features.
I think that Firefox is on its way to maturity, and as this is "crunch time," the developers are becoming more concerned with making the most-bug free version.
As well, these arn't major updates to warrant a major version number increase. they have bugfixes mostly. no new features make it into these new releases. It is an effort to make people upgrade. most people wouldn't download a new nightly everyday, so they make it a "security release"
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? by Mike on 08-06-2004 at 06:50 AM
Add a vote option "I think that Firefox is buggy" so i can vote...
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? by Pipish on 08-06-2004 at 08:26 AM
i love firfox and i did not know it was in beta stages but i am very happy with it just the features are great for me and i love the themes i am very happy with firefox and will use it forever and no i do not think it is buggy
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? by Anubis on 08-06-2004 at 08:30 AM
I'm part of the .9 group...As soon as I updated I felt the browser somehow felt smoother and haven't had any bugs...I like the new free animated image display, whatever the framerate it looks very smooth, this may sound small but when you look at all the animated .gifs out there and then we can see them looking nice for once. The decision I made to upgrade to 0.9 was one of the best...I can't wait for the final release of Firefox...
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by KeyStorm on 08-06-2004 at 08:57 AM
(I just added one option and made the "buggy" option clearer)
Btw, I'm 90% with Jeronimo, although I don't have much time now to explain (it takes a whole while more for me to express myself in English properly 
).
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Jeronimo on 08-06-2004 at 09:44 AM
Only 90% ? 
Now you added that option I could finally vote. This is a good topic Keystorm, and one you can see that I am quite interested it
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Garndell on 08-06-2004 at 01:10 PM
People will use the Beta argument to cover up flaws in the program. It's just too easy in my opinion. IE has such popularity that many bugs are found AND FIXED. Mozilla is still crappy & unknown to the majority of Internet Users so fewer people to find bugs in the code.
Not voting as all the options are Pro-Mozilla or Anti-IE in some form. Not neutral or just Anti-Mozilla.
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Menthix on 08-06-2004 at 01:33 PM
quote:Well, it isn't the same...
Originally posted by KeyStom
Doesn't it look like as in Microsoft where any security bug is being patched?
Internet Explorer has security bugs which takes them over a month to fix (donload.ject for example), FireFox has serious security bugs fixed in several hours.
Every program has bugs and security issues, and the more popular a program gets the more people will try to find security holes. I'm sure a lot of new security bugs will be found during the next years in both IE and FF, but as long as they are fixed properly and fast this doesn't have to be a problem.
What i still miss about Firefox at this moment is a simple way of upgrading. It's not really a problem for me, but inexperienced users coming from IE sometimes have problems upgrading. At this moment it is still recommended to un-install your old Firefox first and then install the new one.
What i would like to see is an automatic update system that checks to see if there is a new version, if there is one it should notify the user and ask if he/she wants to update now. If the user clicks yes it should just install the update full-automatic without having to un-install the old one first or anything. And the same goes for the updating of extensions, i know it is already possible to check automatically for updates in the current Firefox, but a lot of extensions don't support the update checking because it costs them to much bandwith, if Mozilla could host the automatic updates theirselves that would be sweet.
quote:Firefox doesn't use their beta stage as an excuse, some of their users may do that. But the development team is very much concerned about stability.
Originally posted by Garndell
People will use the Beta argument to cover up flaws in the program. It's just too easy in my opinion. IE has such popularity that many bugs are found AND FIXED. Mozilla is still crappy & unknown to the majority of Internet Users so fewer people to find bugs in the code.
As you can read in their roadmap ( http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html ), almost everything they will do is fixing bugs and making sure everything is stable before the 1.0 final release.
You might ask why all those bugs are there in the first place? Firefox is as they call it a "Technology Preview" or beta as most say, it is just a completely diffrent strategy then IE which you compare it to. Internet Exploer doesn't do public beta's, so they would have waited with releasing their browser until they have a stable production release, ofcourse they expect to have bugs in their, but those should be minor and way less then in a beta. Firefox on the other hand chooses to have public beta testing, and in this way they actually hope that people will find and report bugs (Just like when Messenger Plus! would be beta tested). Every bug that is found in Firefox and gets reported in the proper way will be checked seriously by the developers. Ofcourse they can't fix everything at once, that is bugs are divided in category's, major critical bugs will be fixed inmidiatly, minor bugs will have less priority. But is saying "this product is still beta, so yes it has bugs in it" used to cover up flaws? I don't think it is, a public beta is just an oppertunity to test and use a program before it's first production release. If they didn't do a public beta you would have still not known about Firefox know. Consider it a bonus, installing is at your own risk, if you don't want to face problems... wait untill the final release, this release is basicly only ment for testing.
quote:Well, if you compare it to Internet Explorer i have to disagree. Intenet Explorer is closed source which means only the Internet Explorer team itself, certain other Microsoft employees and certain people who take part at the Microsoft Shared Source can actually access the source code and find and fix bugs in it. Firefox is open source which means anybody on the whole world can access the code and find/fix bugs. And when you'll take a look at their buglist ( http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?product=Firefox ) you'll see that a lot of bugs actually do get reported and fixed.
Originally posted by Garndell
fewer people to find bugs in the code
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by GiantSpider on 08-06-2004 at 01:43 PM
Well to say alot of people use a BETA (preview) browser over a well established browser with 6 versions is a point in it's-self. The point Jeronimo made about it being updated very frequently I think is a sign of willingness to make it the best out there. Even if it is a hinderence to dial-up users. Willingness to make it better and alot of user's is a good combination. I can see the V. 1.0 being very good.
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Jeronimo on 08-06-2004 at 02:15 PM
quote:I am going to add something of a twist to your argument. Many people use Firefox and certainly don't think its crap. Having said that, one man's meat is another man's poison. I happen to think IE is not a very good browser in the face of the competition. In itself, there is nothing wrong with IE, it just lacks in features compared to some other browsers
Originally posted by Garndell
People will use the Beta argument to cover up flaws in the program. It's just too easy in my opinion. IE has such popularity that many bugs are found AND FIXED. Mozilla is still crappy & unknown to the majority of Internet Users so fewer people to find bugs in the code.
You claim Firefox is unknown to the majority of internet users and hence fewer bugs are found. I put it to you though, that people who tend to know about and install Firefox are more technically minded than the ignorant, and so have better skills which can be used to find bugs and submit them. Once Firefox 1.0 hits the shelves, I assure you there will be a wave of advertisement, and larger numbers of people will be willing to give it a try. By then, hopefully the more experienced users will have worked most of the bugs out of the system
Might I just ask, which flaws are troubling you the most? What bugs are people really so annoyed about, it stops them giving Firefox a fair chance?
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Anubis on 08-06-2004 at 02:32 PM
quote:Not necessarily, a lot of bugs are usually due to a conflict...and the more people (whoever they are) who have Firefox will have a wide range of software that could cause conflicts. And the more technically minded will know how to avoid the majority of problems...Its the n00bish mistakes that usually shine a big hole of bugs...However I think when Firefox 1.0 comes out there will be a fair bit of advertising but not loads, I can see Firefox having a bright future...
Originally posted by Jeronimo
and so have better skills which can be used to find bugs and submit them
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Menthix on 08-06-2004 at 02:38 PM
quote:Excuse me for quoting myself, but i just wanted to say i found an anwser for my own wish, Proper Software Update has been planned: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253220 .
Originally posted by Myself
What i still miss about Firefox at this moment is a simple way of upgrading. It's not really a problem for me, but inexperienced users coming from IE sometimes have problems upgrading. At this moment it is still recommended to un-install your old Firefox first and then install the new one.
What i would like to see is an automatic update system that checks to see if there is a new version, if there is one it should notify the user and ask if he/she wants to update now. If the user clicks yes it should just install the update full-automatic without having to un-install the old one first or anything.
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Jeronimo on 08-06-2004 at 02:40 PM
quote:Yeah but its not the n00b's that submit the bugs. When was the last time someone's mum went "Ah yes, I think I'll submit a bug report to Microsoft today"?
Originally posted by Anubis
Its the n00bish mistakes that usually shine a big hole of bugs...
And Mozilla is pushing Firefox as the future, so I think it will get a decent amount of press. Certainly there are more sites out even now carrying news of Firefox than of IE development
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Garndell on 08-06-2004 at 08:32 PM
I used Firefox, Mozilla & IE and none of them did what I wanted when I wanted it. The only browser to come close to my requirements has been AvantBrowser. When I sell a PC, the customer knows that by installing Firefox or Mozilla if a problem occurs that can be routed to that program I will no longer provide support for it. I am not a M$ Employee (although I am a MCSE qualified engineer) but I reccomend that users of XP use IE over a Open Source browser.
If they are getting Linux the support I give will be complete. I get no complaints and come highly reccomended in the area.
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Jeronimo on 08-06-2004 at 08:51 PM
I think for n00bies IE is great, Microsoft's support is excellent. But for those of us that can maintain our own computers, IE is far too lacking in features for heavy use.
I think the issue of open source is a none issue. PHP is open source and is very successful.
Then again it all goes back to what suits the person.
The fact is, Firefox isn't that buggy. I use it for hours a day, every day, and I am yet to find any significant problems
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by KeyStorm on 08-06-2004 at 09:16 PM
Well, I don't like much the amount of memory it sucks, the time it takes to load (even when restoring it from running in background or minimized) and the load it gets when you open the extensions panel: it freezes a couple of minutes before reacting (Athlon2800+, 256MB, XP/Pro).
There are indeed some things to improve, but all the rest is really good: costumizable, open-source, free, fast, with many good features...
It will be very good when it reaches the final release and it will be able to compete seriously with IE.
Btw, Garndell: the CERT suggested not to use IE and try out alternate browsers that may not be much more safe, but aren't an exploit target right now ([1] [2]...)
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Chestah on 08-06-2004 at 10:39 PM
firefox to me is clearly better then IE with way more features that are USEFULL to users. Its still in beta testing period so there is to expect some bugs in the application. What would u like more? Mozilla not releasing quick updates to fix security bugs or to wait a few months while releaving them open =/? i think we all know the answer to that one.
With so many users switching to a browser that is still BETA over IE which has been out for years! its definitly challenging $M and has great potential for the future i'm sure i have more to say but i can't remember at the moment
Cheers
Chestah!
EDIT: KeyStorm nice thread and nice work with KSMAS whens the next version coming out to the public? thanks
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by KeyStorm on 08-06-2004 at 11:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chestah007
EDIT: KeyStorm nice thread and nice work with KSMAS
whens the next version of KSMAS coming out to the public?
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Garndell on 08-07-2004 at 12:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well, I don't like much the amount of memory it sucks, the time it takes to load (even when restoring it from running in background or minimized) and the load it gets when you open the extensions panel: it freezes a couple of minutes before reacting (Athlon2800+, 256MB, XP/Pro).
There are indeed some things to improve, but all the rest is really good: costumizable, open-source, free, fast, with many good features...
It will be very good when it reaches the final release and it will be able to compete seriously with IE.
Btw, Garndell: the CERT suggested not to use IE and try out alternate browsers that may not be much more safe, but aren't an exploit target right now ([1] [2]...)
As a UK citizen & resident it is wiser to NOT listen to the US. I don't use IE, I use a browser with IE as it's core. Both Mozilla & Firefox on it's own still do not meet my requirements. All the PC's on this network have Linux & Windows, Firefox & Avant. I am still waiting for the first person to browse the web with Firefox. 16 PC's all with people of various knowledge.
RE: Mozilla Firefox: buggy or dynamic? [Poll updated] by Concord Dawn on 08-07-2004 at 02:02 PM
I can't really talk since I use Mozilla suite for my main browser, but I did use Firefox before that so I have some experience. The real reason that a lot of people are still using IE is that it is bundled into the OS, it is relatively simple to use and works with every website. Firefox and other Gecko-based browsers have trouble supporting sites that aren't standarized. I think that Firefox is more feature-rich and more personalizeable with its plugin support. I think that in the long run Firefox will be a replacement for IE, but that that time is still a while off.
PS: I switch to the suite because it has the features I need.