"open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. - Printable Version
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"open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-09-2005 at 01:24 AM
ok, here’s the thing that has been bugging me for quite a while. I apologize in advance for making this thread if it is in any way irrelevant or somehow stupid. 
(or if there was already a thread like this... thought i didn't see one)
we all know (or should know) that block checkers do not work… for the reasons stated here
but would I be correct in saying that it is possible to detect if a person blocked you if you have an open conversation window notifier?
I am asking this since open conversation window notifiers (such as wouter’s openconvo) or messengerdiscovery can detect blocking, when the person who blocked you opens a conversation window with you.
I tested this thoroughly and although I admit that it is a rather limited way of detecting blocking… it still works. -> the “only” limitation is obvious -> the conversation window needs to be open in order to detect blocking.
I mainly tested wouter’s openconvo for this, but I think messengerdiscovery uses the same method of detection.
(also.. for some reason this method of detection did not work well for me with msn 7.0.0777, but did for msn 6.2 up to (.632) does now again with the newest version of msn 
i'm not sure why that is though)
so where does all this fit in with block checking? can we or I, tell a person who asks that “block checking” is possible? or no?
also, another question. I not even once got a false “open conversation” notification (if the person who opened my conversation window, simply signed in offline or changed their status to offline, and didn’t block me). so WHY is it possible at all to detect if a person opened your convo window, if they blocked you? 
I’m just wondering how this works.
Edit: i added the links to wouter's openconvo notifier.. and messengerdiscovery:
openconvo
messengerdiscovery
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by L. Coyote on 06-09-2005 at 01:50 AM
Do you know if the contact has StuffPlug and the "talk offline" option on?
This is what I think about it:
Afaik, when you block someone and open a window, there's a boolean that tells if you're blocking the person or not (thus, it allows or not you to talk to them). StuffPlug puts the value so that it's not true for YOUR client that you're blocking them. This will start a session with the person you opened the conversation (alerting their client, even if you appear offline to them).
I'm not sure if it's like that when you're blocking someone without StuffPlug. If it works also for those who don't have the plugin, it might be the same. But I dunno. This is all I think it does, but I'd like to see what Cookie has to say about it. 
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-09-2005 at 01:59 AM
quote:i thought this too
Originally posted by Killov
Do you know if the contact has StuffPlug and the "talk offline" option on?
, but from what i tested it doesn't matter if they have stuffplug and the option enabled or not, it seems to make no difference eitherway when it comes to the notifications.quote:
Originally posted by Killov
but I'd like to see what Cookie has to say about it.
me too.
cookie where are you when i need you?Edit: oh yeah just to add something.. when the stuffplug "talk to blocked contacts" option is enabled (for the person who blocked someone), the appropriate notifications show for each time the person opens or closes the conversation window
when that option is not enabled, two notifications show up simultaneously (one for opening and one for closing, both at the same time) and only upon opening of the conversation window
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by haydos on 06-09-2005 at 08:56 AM
Yeah i have noticed something somewhat similar to this. A family friend who uses messenger (who I am 100% sure does not have stuffplug, let alone Plus!) is on my MSN. On a few occations, the window has popped up signifying that they have opened a conversation with me when they are offline.
I am assuming that I am not blocked because i sometimes see this contact online, instead, I think this is occuring while the contact is Appear offline. I dont know if or how this is related to blocking a person but it can fit in above.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by RaceProUK on 06-09-2005 at 09:22 AM
It could also happen if the client requests a display picture, as this opens a conversation.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Millenium_edition on 06-09-2005 at 10:09 AM
quote:windows can't be opened on appear offline mode, so he has either blocked you, either you're having network problems and you didn't see his status change.
Originally posted by haydn
I am assuming that I am not blocked because i sometimes see this contact online, instead, I think this is occuring while the contact is Appear offline. I dont know if or how this is related to blocking a person but it can fit in above.
quote:don't, you can't rely on that, because seriously, who opens a conversation with someone you have blocked? ¬¬
Originally posted by Joa
so where does all this fit in with block checking? can we or I, tell a person who asks that “block checking” is possible? or no?
quote:the only difference is that stuffplug stops msn messenger from closing the windows straight after opening it.
Originally posted by Joa
but from what i tested it doesn't matter if they have stuffplug and the option enabled or not
quote:i think it stops the controls from being disabled and the window from being closed
Originally posted by Killov
Afaik, when you block someone and open a window, there's a boolean that tells if you're blocking the person or not (thus, it allows or not you to talk to them). StuffPlug puts the value so that it's not true for YOUR client that you're blocking them. This will start a session with the person you opened the conversation (alerting their client, even if you appear offline to them).
stuffplug or not, the conversation is still openedquote:that is why the open convo notifier has been classed as "unreliable" i think =/
Originally posted by raceprouk
It could also happen if the client requests a display picture, as this opens a conversation.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by haydos on 06-09-2005 at 01:46 PM
quote:If you have blocked somebody and you see the toast for them signing in you may click it, hence, opening the conversation
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
quote:don't, you can't rely on that, because seriously, who opens a conversation with someone you have blocked? ¬¬
Originally posted by Joa
so where does all this fit in with block checking? can we or I, tell a person who asks that “block checking” is possible? or no?
quote:errrrmmmm yes you can, I just tested it. I switched my status to appear offline and if you right click and go to Send an Instant Message to this person it will work
Originally posted by M_e
quote:windows can't be opened on appear offline mode, so he has either blocked you, either you're having network problems and you didn't see his status change.
Originally posted by haydn
I am assuming that I am not blocked because i sometimes see this contact online, instead, I think this is occuring while the contact is Appear offline. I dont know if or how this is related to blocking a person but it can fit in above.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Anubis on 06-09-2005 at 03:22 PM
quote:True. However as raceprouk said, when a client asks the other one for a display picture it gives the same response as an "open window". Even if the contact is blocked.
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
don't, you can't rely on that, because seriously, who opens a conversation with someone you have blocked?
quote:In this case it doesn't matter, if the contact looks like they are offline and opens a window (even if it is an unreliable result from something else) it means that they are really online. So in this case, that factor works to an advantage.
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
that is why the open convo notifier has been classed as "unreliable" i think =/
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Millenium_edition on 06-09-2005 at 04:11 PM
quote:you don't see toasts of blocked people...
Originally posted by haydn
If you have blocked somebody and you see the toast for them signing in you may click it, hence, opening the conversation
quote:the protocol session isn't opened though...
Originally posted by haydn
errrrmmmm yes you can, I just tested it. I switched my status to appear offline and if you right click and go to Send an Instant Message to this person it will work
quote:true... to obtain good results, change your display picture regulary though
Originally posted by Anubis
In this case it doesn't matter, if the contact looks like they are offline and opens a window (even if it is an unreliable result from something else) it means that they are really online. So in this case, that factor works to an advantage.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Anubis on 06-09-2005 at 04:32 PM
quote:Actually, that gave me an idea, if the plugin instantly changed your display picture to a random image for 5 seconds, it would show the contact up.
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
true... to obtain good results, change your display picture regulary though
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by CookieRevised on 06-09-2005 at 05:15 PM
Joa, Killow, I've just read the thread. To explain it all you are best to learn the protocol. Only in this way you truly can understand how it all works and how it is related (also note that since MSN Messenger 7 many changes concearning these beheviours have changed, and changed again)... All this said, the people who already posted in this thread explained it pretty well, although it may seem very confussing though. But then again, as long as you don't know the protocol by hart it indeed is confussing 
(note: I don't know the protocol by hart either )...
Conclussion, there are some methods to detect blocking, but they depend on the knowledge of the interpreter of the signs. And even then, they aren't always accurate, reliable or even don't always work. Because of all this, it is extremely hard to make a decent computerized, non-human interpreter (aka a program, block checker) to detect and analyze this kind of stuff.
The only people who could truely explain it in great detail (but then again, it may sound like "Chinese" to most of us) are the ones who study the MSN protocol and work with it every day. I'm thinking of people like Inky, etc...
quote:nice example of how theory will not always work in practice. eg: The sole fact that a connection can take more then 5 seconds to be established; the fact that not everybody has MSN Messenger 7 in the first place; the fact that not all people show DP's; etc... etc...
Originally posted by Anubis
quote:Actually, that gave me an idea, if the plugin instantly changed your display picture to a random image for 5 seconds, it would show the contact up.
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
true... to obtain good results, change your display picture regulary though
There simply isn't a reliable way of block detection; there are only small unreliable signs to be interpreted in the correct context and with the proper knowledge.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-09-2005 at 06:15 PM
quote:nah, with "openconvo" you never get false notifications. like i stated in my other post, you do not get notifications when the contact opens your window while just changing their status to or signing in offline.
Originally posted by haydn
I am assuming that I am not blocked because i sometimes see this contact online, instead, I think this is occuring while the contact is Appear offline. I dont know if or how this is related to blocking a person but it can fit in above
like m_e said the protocol session isn't open when you choose to simply appear offline.
quote:it still could happen though.
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
don't, you can't rely on that, because seriously, who opens a conversation with someone you have blocked? ¬¬
quote:exactly. though i didn't get false notifications while blocked
Originally posted by Anubis
In this case it doesn't matter, if the contact looks like they are offline and opens a window (even if it is an unreliable result from something else) it means that they are really online. So in this case, that factor works to an advantage.
(when they changed their dp etc.)quote:i dunno. i tried this -> me and contact had no dps at all, and i still got "openconvo" notifications eachtime they opened my window after they blocked me.
Originally posted by Anubis
Actually, that gave me an idea, if the plugin instantly changed your display picture to a random image for 5 seconds, it would show the contact up.
quote:it is not so hard to tell. all you have to do is notice the "open window" message while they appear offline. and i mean, openconvo can actually log the events eachtime your window has been closed or opened. you can just search for the contact you think that blocked you in the logs and see if they appeared offline at the time you got a notification.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
There simply isn't a reliable way of block detection; there are only small unreliable signs to be interpreted in the correct context and with the proper knowledge.
i don't think it is unreliable, since it does show a pop-up -> everytime the window has been opened. you don't get false notifications at all. the only thing is that it is limited, since it all depends on the contact who blocked you -> whether or not they open your convo window.
try it yourselves. with the current msn (like i said 7.0.0777 was the only version i had any problems with), and windows messenger it works everytime.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Anubis on 06-09-2005 at 06:30 PM
quote:Yes, you do. OpenConvo is just like the others, it will now give notifications when a contact who is using MSN Messenger 7 or above has their client on and it tries to download your display picture.
Originally posted by Joa
nah, with "openconvo" you never get false notifications
quote:It's when you are blocked and change your display picture, does the other person apear that they've blocked you.
Originally posted by Joa
(when they changed their dp etc.)
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-09-2005 at 06:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
Yes, you do. OpenConvo is just like the others, it will now give notifications when a contact who is using MSN Messenger 7 or above has their client on and it tries to download your display picture
what i meant was that you don't get false notifications in the sense that -> when a contact chooses their status to appear offline, and opens a convo window with you, you will not get notifications.
quote:yes, i know this. it is possible (and happens occassionally to me when i am not blocked by the contact, or have blocked them)
Originally posted by Anubis
It's when you are blocked and change your display picture, does the other person apear that they've blocked you.
but all i'm saying is while testing this while being blocked, i did not get notifications when i changed my dp, or they changed theirs.sorry if i was unclear, but i do undertand the concept
_______
quote:i just want to correct myself, with one of my contacts (while disabling the dp from showing) i did not get any notifications.
Originally posted by Joa
i dunno. i tried this -> me and contact had no dps at all, and i still got "openconvo" notifications eachtime they opened my window after they blocked me.
so the conclusion is that it is best to have a dp displayed.
i mean, i tried this with 20 of my contacts (i have no life
) and it only happened with 1. so it does happen, although gathering from my results.. quite rarely.RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by CookieRevised on 06-10-2005 at 02:19 PM
quote:It simply can mean they have the status "appear offline", it doesn't nessecairly mean they are blocking you...
Originally posted by Joa
quote:it is not so hard to tell. all you have to do is notice the "open window" message while they appear offline. and i mean, openconvo can actually log the events eachtime your window has been closed or opened. you can just search for the contact you think that blocked you in the logs and see if they appeared offline at the time you got a notification.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
There simply isn't a reliable way of block detection; there are only small unreliable signs to be interpreted in the correct context and with the proper knowledge.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Millenium_edition on 06-11-2005 at 10:35 AM
quote:read the thread... the protocol session isn't opened when on appear offline
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It simply can mean they have the status "appear offline", it doesn't nessecairly mean they are blocking you...
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by haydos on 06-11-2005 at 10:47 AM
quote:Then how does Stuffplug allow you to start a conversation in Appear Offline mode?
Originally posted by Millenium_edition
quote:read the thread... the protocol session isn't opened when on appear offline
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It simply can mean they have the status "appear offline", it doesn't nessecairly mean they are blocking you...
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Anubis on 06-11-2005 at 11:03 AM
quote:StuffPlug-NG doesn't, it will let you with blocked contacts if both have the conversation window open, however in that case the protocol is in full effect, just one contact reads you as offline. And yes, in MSN, you can open a window with a contact when at appear offline, but you can't use this to communicate with the other person in anyway.
Originally posted by haydn
Then how does Stuffplug allow you to start a conversation in Appear Offline mode?
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-12-2005 at 12:32 AM
ok so in the end... it is true that block checking IS possible > although limited because it largely depends on the person who blocked you (whether or not they open your convo window). although, even than there is a possibility of getting a notification, when they don't open your convo window, but the client requests a dp.
and the information you get is accurate, because the notifications you get can only happen if the person who blocked you is online.
so i can say that block checking is possible than right? 
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by jin11 on 06-12-2005 at 02:52 AM
Well the point stands that if a user is offline, but you see them opening a conversation window with you, it has to be that they blocked you.
But that still is one of the worst ways of a block checker really, if someone blocks you, I'd really doubt they'd wanna open a conversation window immediately.
And when you appear offline, your client doesn't request for DP's so that's out of the question.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by -DarkAngel- on 06-12-2005 at 02:54 AM
how do you get that plugin that one that tells you when someone opened a convo with you..and the one that tells u when someone blocked you...?..lol
RE: RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-12-2005 at 03:05 AM
quote:go to my first post (there are links there)
Originally posted by -DarkAngel-
how do you get that plugin that one that tells you when someone opened a convo with you..and the one that tells u when someone blocked you...?..lol
and read this whole thread, since there are limitations when it comes to block checking.
also refer to cookie's post to find why openconvo notifier's are not as reliable with msn 7.
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=38...d=379129#pid379129
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by jin11 on 06-12-2005 at 03:06 AM
There is no plugin to tell you if you have been blocked now. It's gone, it used to be in MD. You can use block checker websites, but as it has been said they are not accurate. It has worked for me sometimes, but not always.
Try the one on: blockchecker.msnfanatic.com
As for the open window plugin, you can download Messenger Discovery 3 or the plug-in for Msg Plus, but be warned it is not efficient with MSN 7 due to changes in the protocol. The user must be smart enough to distinguish a true "open" notifier from a random DP request which MSN automatically does.
Search for the plug-in on this board, the thread with it should be here.
EDIT - just check the link posted above.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by Joa on 06-12-2005 at 03:29 AM
quote:yes, but it seems that it is the only way you "can" check if somebody blocked you. (unless you actually go and look at their list at their home or something
Originally posted by jin11
But that still is one of the worst ways of a block checker really, if someone blocks you, I'd really doubt they'd wanna open a conversation window immediately.
And when you appear offline, your client doesn't request for DP's so that's out of the question.
). you can't really call it the worst way, since the bug in msn's protocol has been fixed there is no other way to check blocking.also, it is true when you sign in offline OR change your status to offline the client does not request the dp.
so if you want to check if somebody blocked you, you both have to be online at the time and it is best that you have a display picture. also, the person has to open your window. (there is a possibility of getting a notification when the client requests your dp, this has been already discussed in this thread though). i know it is a very limited way of detection, but there is no other way.
quote:this option is still in md
Originally posted by jin11
There is no plugin to tell you if you have been blocked now. It's gone, it used to be in MD. You can use block checker websites, but as it has been said they are not accurate. It has worked for me sometimes, but not always.
check their feature's page
also, the reason why the sites which determine whether or not you have been blocked sometimes work, is because the contact who has blocked you has the "Only people on my Allow List can see my status and send me messages" option left unchecked.
RE: "open convo notifiers" as block checkers.. by jin11 on 06-13-2005 at 08:49 PM
Another funny little thing that I was trying out. If a user is online on your list and you open a conversation with them and download their DP and can clearly see it.
Then they go offline, and you keep the window open and if you notice that their DP changes, it means you've been blocked. This has worked for me and has happened. I don't think this can work if the user is Appearing Offline, but then again I wasn't sure at that time if they were Appearing Offline or Blocking me.
But that was a weird enough situation, and it's a cool way to notice.