[split] Tab Suggestion - Printable Version
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RE: Messenger Plus! Future by Poom on 08-30-2005 at 01:29 PM
Though I don't see Patchou replying here anymore, I have some idea of tab conversation for Patchou to consider. I lazily made a picture in Paint for this.
![[Image: tab-con.PNG]](http://www.alpha-oa.com/EXEBROS/tab-con.PNG)
The most left button is the open a new tab button. The most right button is the close tab button. The second right button is the moving current tab out of this window. And the last ones, the third right button are the up and down buttons to view the upper/lower group of tabs, similar to scroll keys in places like web browser. Anyway, the dark blue up arrow indicates that you can scroll up, while the light blue down arrow indicates that you can scroll down.
I actually think that this way is actually very convenient and does not waste much space. I hope Patchou will read this...
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Eljay on 08-30-2005 at 02:09 PM
well the "new tab" should be very easy as all it has to do is launch the "Send an instant message" window in msn
and all the functions you want these buttons to do are also already existing features so i dont see any problem with them being implemented
good ideas 
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 08-30-2005 at 02:44 PM
Well, point by point:
Open new contact window: I see several problems. People might think it means add a new contact to the list, add/invite a contact to the conversation or open a new conversation with this contact. This, ofcourse would be partially solved with accurate tooltips and titles, but still it would not be as intuitive as it should. Also, it takes one double click on the Messenger tray icon to open the contact list and choose the contact. Send an instant Message is not modified by Plus!' Custom Contact Names, so what users with that option enables (quite a few), will only see email addresses, like in the invite box. Also it is much easier to open a conversation from the Contact List. It would be a problem, in my honest opinion.
Close button: Exactly below there is an exact equal button that closes the conversation/tab. If any use, it had to close _all_ tabs. However this would be very dangerous, because it may be mistaken with closing only a tab with catastrophic effects.
Detach button: I'd agree on that if it wasn't for the next reason: It is hardly used and there's already a mouse combination to do it (Middle-click, but probably double-click in the future beta versions)
Navigation Arrows: They already exist. Not in a form of "navigating through tab groups", but scrolling across tabs that ay be hidden outside the visible tab bar for space reasons.
Sorry to be skeptic, but we're testing it and I can tell you what is needed, what not, and what would annoy. 
RE: RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 08-31-2005 at 10:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well, point by point:
Open new contact window: I see several problems. People might think it means add a new contact to the list, add/invite a contact to the conversation or open a new conversation with this contact. This, ofcourse would be partially solved with accurate tooltips and titles, but still it would not be as intuitive as it should. Also, it takes one double click on the Messenger tray icon to open the contact list and choose the contact. Send an instant Message is not modified by Plus!' Custom Contact Names, so what users with that option enables (quite a few), will only see email addresses, like in the invite box. Also it is much easier to open a conversation from the Contact List. It would be a problem, in my honest opinion.
Close button: Exactly below there is an exact equal button that closes the conversation/tab. If any use, it had to close _all_ tabs. However this would be very dangerous, because it may be mistaken with closing only a tab with catastrophic effects.
Detach button: I'd agree on that if it wasn't for the next reason: It is hardly used and there's already a mouse combination to do it (Middle-click, but probably double-click in the future beta versions)
Navigation Arrows: They already exist. Not in a form of "navigating through tab groups", but scrolling across tabs that ay be hidden outside the visible tab bar for space reasons.
Sorry to be skeptic, but we're testing it and I can tell you what is needed, what not, and what would annoy.
Open a new tab: I actually find that right-clicking+send an instant message is way better. Offline contacts are not included. Besides, it is not laggy. I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list. :/ If you think that the send an instant message thing is too hard because it is in e-mails, then I guess that Patchoue could make a new window for contacts in nicknames, or even just a list like the start menu. As for the confusion that may cause due to the add new contact button, like I have said, I lazily made the picture and the buttons can be something else.
I think that people won't be that confused though, since when you click at the button once, you know what it does and should be able to remember what it does. Besides that, the button is near the tabs, which indicates that it does something about tabs.Close button: I thought that the default close button is for closing the window, not a tab. If that is for closing a tab and the upper one is for closing a window, then that is weird IMO. The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.
Detach button: Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use. For example, when there are two people chatting with you very actively, you would be annoyhed when you have to switch tabs all the times. Seperating the tabs into different windows makes life a lot easier to me.
Navigation Arrows: If it already exists, then there is no problem to talk about this now.
My main concern is how the tabs bar is horizontally above the con, while the current thing plus! (beta) has (according to some blog) is actually vertical and wastes a lot of space, IMO.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 08-31-2005 at 01:47 PM
quote:You can group them out and contract the group, like I do.
Originally posted by Poom
Offline contacts are not included
quote:Well, the only difference is that you have to double-click on the tray icon. And if the contact list is laggy for you, hide the DPs and make the buddies small.
Originally posted by Poom
I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list
Besides, that dialog does not show any aparent order other than alphabetical, no groups, no hidden groups... etc
quote:Have you ever used Word?
Originally posted by Poom
The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.
Lower close button: close document
Upper Close button: close application
No how many times have you missed the button and closed the whole application?
Middle click on the tab closes it. This means any tab. Esc closes current tab. I agree there should be a conbo or a context menu option to close all tabs, but I wouldn't add a button. Also, the tab can be set to the top or to the left of the convos, so it wouldn't have much sense to place a close button anyway.
quote:It does indeed: right click > Ungroup this chat.
Originally posted by Poom
Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use.
If you become used to it, you can use Ctrl+F8, which is quite faster than putting a whole new button. Also, as I said, there may be a mouse combination for that.
RE: RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 08-31-2005 at 02:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
quote:You can group them out and contract the group, like I do.
Originally posted by Poom
Offline contacts are not included
What if the user likes grouping the contact in groups, not online/offline. This actually limits the options, obviously. I'd rather have a new window popping up with all online contacts.
quote:quote:Well, the only difference is that you have to double-click on the tray icon. And if the contact list is laggy for you, hide the DPs and make the buddies small.
Originally posted by Poom
I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list
Besides, that dialog does not show any aparent order other than alphabetical, no groups, no hidden groups... etc
Like I said, what if someone wants the contact list with dps. This limits the options. Also, like I said, I'd rather have a new window than limitting my contact list. Besides, the new windows could be coded so that it can be sorted in different ways.
quote:Have you ever used Word?
Originally posted by Poom
The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.
Lower close button: close document
Upper Close button: close application
No how many times have you missed the button and closed the whole application?
Middle click on the tab closes it. This means any tab. Esc closes current tab. I agree there should be a conbo or a context menu option to close all tabs, but I wouldn't add a button. Also, the tab can be set to the top or to the left of the convos, so it wouldn't have much sense to place a close button anyway.
Did you mean know instead of no? If it is no, then it doesn't make much sense there. >.> Anyway, I have used Words and know how it is. This is just a suggestion and could be adjusted to be better. It would be better if we have close tab and close window buttons seperated. There it is, a possible way of having both buttons. Of course, there can be better ideas, but having two of them seperated is better than having one. As for the shortcuts, I use those stuff my self for firefox, but normal people won't use them. Typical computer users do not use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. So, I think it'd be better if we have a button, not just a shortcut or a right click menu. Besides that, isn't it Patchou who decides whether the button shall be put or not? =P Let's hear Patchou's opinion.
quote:Like I said, typical user won't use those Ctrl shortcuts and would like a button instead of a right click. I like Ctrl shortcuts myself, but the fact is that the majority uses buttons. There is actually no harm at all putting a button there, taking up only about 10x10 pixels. It is better than having to right click then choose the option. Having a button is better than not having one to me.quote:It does indeed: right click > Ungroup this chat.
Originally posted by Poom
Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use.
If you become used to it, you can use Ctrl+F8, which is quite faster than putting a whole new button. Also, as I said, there may be a mouse combination for that.
I don't know why you do not want them so much, but I can't see any harm in adding the buttons for those Ctrl shortcuts. Of course, this is just a suggestion and it could be compromised to make the best choice. Besides that, this is actually an interface suggestion and I don't see why you would bother adding Ctrl shortcuts to the conversation. Right-click has something to do with interface, but I don't really see the point of putting Ctrl shortcuts here.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by qgroessl on 08-31-2005 at 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
Ctrl+F8,
Why ctrl+F8.... haha... I'll never remember that...it should be something that is ctrl+a letter, but just one that's not used for anything else.
RE: RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 08-31-2005 at 02:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by qgroessl
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
Ctrl+F8,
Why ctrl+F8.... haha... I'll never remember that...it should be something that is ctrl+a letter, but just one that's not used for anything else.
That is actually posted by KeyStrom, not me, since I do not have the beta anyways. Actually, that is excatly what I am saying. You see now, KeyStrom? Typical users won't remember those Ctrl shortcuts. This quote proves what I have said.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 08-31-2005 at 03:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
Typical users won't remember
Typical users won't use the ungroup feature more than maybe once a month if ever, trust me
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
What if the user likes grouping the contact in groups, not online/offline.
Oh dear... you can do both.
quote:Nah, I meant "now".
Originally posted by Poom
Did you mean know instead of no? If it is no, then it doesn't make much sense there. >.> Anyway, I have used Words and know how it is. This is just a suggestion and could be adjusted to be better. It would be better if we have close tab and close window buttons seperated. There it is, a possible way of having both buttons. Of course, there can be better ideas, but having two of them seperated is better than having one. As for the shortcuts, I use those stuff my self for firefox, but normal people won't use them. Typical computer users do not use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. So, I think it'd be better if we have a button, not just a shortcut or a right click menu. Besides that, isn't it Patchou who decides whether the button shall be put or not? =P Let's hear Patchou's opinion.
There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that. I'm just discussing it _should not_ be another close button. Better than that a key combo like Ctrl-Esc. Sure, typical users don't really know much about combos, but they don't have any option to close all coversations anyway, except maybe for closing or logging out Messenger. Adding another close button will be more a problem than a solution.
quote:I and any minimally smart UI programer would bother adding key combinations, yes. Combinations are part of the User Interface.
Originally posted by Poom
I don't know why you do not want them so much, but I can't see any harm in adding the buttons for those Ctrl shortcuts. Of course, this is just a suggestion and it could be compromised to make the best choice. Besides that, this is actually an interface suggestion and I don't see why you would bother adding Ctrl shortcuts to the conversation. Right-click has something to do with interface, but I don't really see the point of putting Ctrl shortcuts here.
You should think that adding too many buttons to a GUI scares people. And I don't think it's necessary to add a specific button for this rather obscure feature. It's not fundamental and will be rarely used anyway. Those who would ever want to use it, will discover there are ways to achieve it whether using the context menu or the key combination.
I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons. I bet for adding only those that are really needed.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-01-2005 at 11:01 AM
quote:I don't think so. Girls that spend most of theri time IMing would have multiple cons at the same time and they would, most likely, ungroup the tab to avoid changing the tab very often. Besides that, if you have a key combination and you don't have any button for it, many would not know that there is really one. Of course, there is the right-click thing, but it is not noticable enough for a user, trust me.
Typical users won't use the ungroup feature more than maybe once a month if ever, trust me
quote:So, have you got my point yet? I think that it is very straight forward. C'mon, admit it. =_=a
Oh dear... you can do both.
quote:I've said this and I will say it again, then. Typical users won't know Ctrl+Esc. OK, think about it, majority of Plus!'s users are not registerred to the forums and won't bother finding every shortcuts. Most teen agers, at least the ones I know, don't even know many options in Plus! because they don't bother looking for the ones that are not visualized. My friend does not know that there are those "Hello", "My patience has its limit...", and so on sounds untill 3.5 comes. Most of them are worse.
There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that. I'm just discussing it _should not_ be another close button. Better than that a key combo like Ctrl-Esc. Sure, typical users don't really know much about combos, but they don't have any option to close all coversations anyway, except maybe for closing or logging out Messenger. Adding another close button will be more a problem than a solution.
I have actually got a better idea, putting the close button at the right of each tab, for closing the specific tab.
quote:From this, I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users. Sorry if this is wrong. Well, sir, then you havn't known that most, I mean 80% would not know those shortcuts and would not try to use them. Besides that, I still can't see how 3-4 small buttons can be such "bloats". >.> Seriously, it takes even less space than the DP frame. I have tried to tell you how useful ungroup buttons are, though you still don't understand it. Well... maybe it talking to two people (or more) at the same time is very rare for you, but not for those who spend their time to CHAT, yes, those girls. I actually think that people would like tab features with a new tab button, a close tab button, and an ungroup tab button than having only the navigation arrow. They would be "Shouldn't there be buttons for these shortcuts? My friends won't even know these shortcuts. Oh well, gotta tell them." While, if you have those buttons, they would probably be like "Oh, we can also do these stuffs. Cool, this is actually handy. I thought that there would only be tabs."
I and any minimally smart UI programer would bother adding key combinations, yes. Combinations are part of the User Interface.
You should think that adding too many buttons to a GUI scares people. And I don't think it's necessary to add a specific button for this rather obscure feature. It's not fundamental and will be rarely used anyway. Those who would ever want to use it, will discover there are ways to achieve it whether using the context menu or the key combination.
I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons. I bet for adding only those that are really needed.
If you hate those buttons so much, there could be, in preference, options to disable those buttons, though I actually find them very useful in many situations.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 09-01-2005 at 01:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
Typical users won't know Ctrl+Esc. OK, think about it, majority of Plus!'s users are not registerred to the forums and won't bother finding every shortcuts. Most teen agers, at least the ones I know, don't even know many options in Plus! because they don't bother looking for the ones that are not visualized.
This is already known and discussed. But these users won't bother either to close all the tabs at once and adding another button will only confuse them more. Also the shortcuts are clearly stated to the left of their menu accesses and/or on the tooltips. There is no need to go on the net and do some research. Also, people used to shortcuts will notice they are standard, like Ctrl+(shift+)Tad, a combination that is used by the majority of tabbed applications to navigate across them. People who don't know about this, won't bother using the mouse as this is what they do mostly. If they are ever are interested in anything as complex as detaching conversations they will try context menues and discover ways to achieve it. But this feature is not a high priority. Usual users will whether use grouped convos or not grouped at all and not a mixture. The girlie you mention will probably not bother using grouped convos. If she does, then she has the capacity to detach them using menues or shortcuts.
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
So, have you got my point yet?
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons.
quote:How about reading with more attention. The great majority of this 80% you mention (that I don't argue at all, it's probably even more user who don't know about shortcuts) will not bother using advanced functionalities of tabbed conversations. They will probably find them geek or useless. If, I repeat, some of them become interested in using them, they will discover how to and will learn the shortcut or will use the menu. No one is expecting users to already know the shortcuts. Shortcuts are stated to the left orf their menu options. If someone feels as used to that feature as to use shortcuts, trust me they will learn them. If they don't they can still use the menu entry. I've been testing beta's for more than 2 years now and I can tell you the less buttons are added, the better the impact on the girlie-user.
Originally posted by Poom
80% would not know those shortcuts and would not try to use them
quote:And I can pretty much tell you are wrong.
Originally posted by Poom
I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users
quote:Heh, I'm pretty sure I've IMed more and longer than you.
Originally posted by Poom
Well... maybe it talking to two people (or more) at the same time is very rare for you, but not for those who spend their time to CHAT, yes, those girls.
quote:I'm not so immature to think only for myself. I'd even use thos buttons, probably. But I'm telling you most users will feel sick and confused if that much is added. Actually we could add all sorts of functions to the GUI. Like, why not add fixed buttons for formatting?
Originally posted by Poom
If you hate those buttons so much, there could be, in preference, options to disable those buttons, though I actually find them very useful in many situations.
Or A direct button to the preferences? Or buttons for scheduler, quoter, Come-back messages, perso status...?
It doesn't make any sense!
So please, I've heard and understood your points, it's time for you to consider listening to mine.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Sunshine on 09-01-2005 at 02:04 PM
Poom, i don't see what your problem is really. Every computeruser oughta know the basics (buttons, shortcuts etc), they are throughout every single windowsprogram you use! This is not a 30+ thing at all! Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...instead of flaming maybe you could learn something? Like how you can group offline contacts together even when using groups (contacts > sort contacts on ..choose groups..go to the menu again and find the "group offline contacts together" option).
Adding loads of buttons will only confuse the user even more...because they won't see wich button is for what anymore..accidently click the wrong one etc. and foremost they will never learn the basic shortcuts in windows..do you want every single program to add lil shortcutbuttons?
Also the option to group and ungroup are in the menus, there's no need for extra (confusing) buttons.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-02-2005 at 01:07 PM
quote:
Poom, i don't see what your problem is really. Every computeruser oughta know the basics (buttons, shortcuts etc), they are throughout every single windowsprogram you use! This is not a 30+ thing at all! Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...
Ugh.... Am I really flaming? Since when did I flame him with age? All I did was guessing that he is 30+ and I never said anything bad about it. Besides that, if you may want to read the whole debate for a minute, KeyStrom actually agrees that 80% won't remember the shortcuts, while you are telling me the opposite. I don't get why you are trying to oppose me in such ways, really. Since when did I flame KeyStrom? So, to you, any discussion with something that can not be agreed is flaming? To me, it is more like a debate. I never got angry and flame him. Tell me if I did cross the borderline. Saying something like that does not get much appreciation from me either.
quote:Since when did I say all? All I was suggesting is 3 buttons, other than the arrows wihch are implemented. The add new tab button exists in Firefox and other tabbed browser, and it is not so confusing to me. There is a close tab button in Firefox too. Besides, ungroup button is in a program like Trillian. There are ONLY 3 buttons I am suggesting and they exist in tabbed programs.
Adding loads of buttons will only confuse the user even more...because they won't see wich button is for what anymore..accidently click the wrong one etc. and foremost they will never learn the basic shortcuts in windows..do you want every single program to add lil shortcutbuttons?
KeyStrom does get my point a little bit, but he thinks that they are not useful as they are supposed to be.
@KeyStrom:
quote:Then I am sorry. There was no offense intended in anyways. Sorry if it does offend you.
And I can pretty much tell you are wrong.
quote:
Heh, I'm pretty sure I've IMed more and longer than you.
I can say that you are wrong too, because I do spend a lot of time during weekend chatting, mainly chatting with hot girls.
quote:
I'm not so immature to think only for myself. I'd even use thos buttons, probably. But I'm telling you most users will feel sick and confused if that much is added. Actually we could add all sorts of functions to the GUI. Like, why not add fixed buttons for formatting?
Or A direct button to the preferences? Or buttons for scheduler, quoter, Come-back messages, perso status...?
Since when did I say to add all shortcut buttons into the GUI? I think that this conversation is going in the wrong direction. All I am suggesting is 3 buttons. I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much. The new tab button will be used very often, that is for sure. The ungroup button maybe useful to some, while not to the others. As for the the close button, you may think that it is dangereous or useless. Well... I get your point there, but it can be adjusted to make it less confusing. I will try to think of that in a minute. Again, I am suggesting 3 buttons. 3 buttons that will be used a lot when it comes to tabs, only 3! I am not saying that all the shortcuts should be added. Of course, only the important ones I am suggesting. I don't know why you guys are thinking that I want so much buttons that will create much bloat, but please read my post with more attention. KeyStrom, I do read your posts with a lot of attention, but I find that you do not get my main point there. We are not discussing about shortcuts and buttons, we are discussing about 3 buttons for tab conversation, which will take less space that one tab.
Sunshine, please change your attitude towards me. I actually want Plus! to be good and satisfying to users, not flaming KeyStrom. If you actually think of me that way, then I am very appauled. If my suggestions for making Plus a better plugin means flaming an official tester to you, then there is nothing else to be said. If the attitude still remains the same, then I guess that all I can do is downloading the new Plus! and use it, not giving back any feedbacks nor posting here.
I thought that I have made my points clear enough and tried to hold a debate, not an arguement. If it appears to you that this whole talk has became a flamewar, then I have nothing else to say. Remember that the person who gives feedbacks actually pays attention to the program a lot and hopes that it can improve. TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions. Oh well...
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 09-02-2005 at 02:08 PM
quote:Maybe much more than the tab detacher and the tabadder.
Originally posted by Poom
I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
As for the the close button, you may think that it is dangereous or useless
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that.
quote:You should maybe change your macho-attitude, too, towards those girls. That still doesn't proof you IMed more than I did, but well, be happy you do at least.
Originally posted by Poom
I can say that you are wrong too, because I do spend a lot of time during weekend chatting, mainly chatting with hot girls.
quote:You repeat yourself. I read with attention. Maybe you should listen to my words.
Originally posted by Poom
please read my post with more attention
For a start, you shouldn't have ever used tabbed browsing yet in MSN Messenger and you may be having a false conception of what it does and how it works. We the testers and Patchou ar having long discussions on what should be included and how things should work. Adding buttons for every function to the tabs is definitely not an option.
quote:Then maybe this is not the place you should ask for that. Also, SPNG is known for having some disputedly useful features and this goes most times against its populaity. However, many good other features are the main appeal for its users. SPNG has a different target market (if you want to call it this way), where most users are powerusers.
Originally posted by Poom
TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions.
Ok, now look at your conversation window? How many function buttons have been added to it?
2. And they're very relevant: Plus! Menu and Sounds Panel.
You want to add some superflual buttons to detach tabs and add tabs when this can be done in similarly easy ways with the same effort and success? This is called bloating a GUI. And maybe tomorrow comes someone new requesting buttons for setting statuses from the convo, and the day after someone requests format buttons...
Well, if you don't get it now, then sorry, but there's nothing else I can try to explain you, because you don't seem to pay much attention to what I'm saying:
quote:* KeyStorm actually agreed that 80% don't KNOW or can't GUESS the shortcuts yet.
Originally posted by Poom
KeyStrom actually agrees that 80% won't remember the shortcuts
It makes me very angry that you purposely misunderstand me!
quote:You can trust she pretty much reads with attention, unlike you.
Originally posted by Poom
Besides that, if you may want to read the whole debate for a minute
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Sunshine on 09-02-2005 at 02:17 PM
Poom: I'm not sayin you can't make suggestions. I see this as flaming because you drag personal things like age (and things like chatting often, assuming those speaking here don't) into it to justify your ideas. Us betatesters work on this alot, meaning we also chat alot to test..to me dragging these things into it shows lack of respect.
Honestly take a look at the picture you posted, would you in one glance be able to tell wich button is for what? I sure couldn't. People not beeing able to tell wich is for what is exactly what we are trying to prevent here.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-03-2005 at 03:50 AM
quote:Perhaps, you may be the one who should change your attitude towards me. I am the person who tries to suggest new things to Plus, but SunShine is saying that I am flaming.
You should maybe change your macho-attitude, too, towards those girls.
quote:
Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...instead of flaming maybe you could learn something?
That, my friend, is more offensive that what I posted.
quote:
From this, I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users. Sorry if this is wrong.
quote:
Honestly take a look at the picture you posted, would you in one glance be able to tell wich button is for what? I sure couldn't. People not beeing able to tell wich is for what is exactly what we are trying to prevent here.
quote:
As for the confusion that may cause due to the add new contact button, like I have said, I lazily made the picture and the buttons can be something else.
quote:
You can trust she pretty much reads with attention, unlike you.
Now, that is an example of not paying attention to what I posted. I said that the buttons could have some workaround to make it better. Besides that, you, KeyStrom, did not pay much attention to my post either.
quote:
You want to add some superflual buttons to detach tabs and add tabs when this can be done in similarly easy ways with the same effort and success? This is called bloating a GUI. And maybe tomorrow comes someone new requesting buttons for setting statuses from the convo, and the day after someone requests format buttons...
quote:
Since when did I say to add all shortcut buttons into the GUI? I think that this conversation is going in the wrong direction. All I am suggesting is 3 buttons. I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much.
And you are saying that you get my point while I am the one who does not pay attention? I have never known that Plus! testers are this immature. I never said a single thing about adding those buttons. I am suggesting 3 buttons, but never said about adding all buttons possible. That is actually sarcasm that does not even fit this conversation.
quote:My point is that TB does take feedbacks nicely, unlike you two who does not even get my point and try to offend me. I am not paying attention? Ya right, then I guess that I wouldn't be searching for screenshots of the beta and suggesting comments here if I am not paying attention. If you think that I am ignorant, then why am I suggesting you something? You guys really do not make me feel like giving feedbacks. If I am trying to flame you two, then perhaps I would not be quoting like this, but more like
Then maybe this is not the place you should ask for that. Also, SPNG is known for having some disputedly useful features and this goes most times against its populaity. However, many good other features are the main appeal for its users. SPNG has a different target market (if you want to call it this way), where most users are powerusers.
quote:
"YOU SUCK! YOU DO NOT FACKING UNDERSTAND A THING, GODDAMN MORON".
quote:Yes, and that is what I am going to do right now. I will wait for Plus! 3.6 to come out, even if there is any flaw that can be improved.
I actually want Plus! to be good and satisfying to users, not flaming KeyStrom. If you actually think of me that way, then I am very appauled. If my suggestions for making Plus a better plugin means flaming an official tester to you, then there is nothing else to be said. If the attitude still remains the same, then I guess that all I can do is downloading the new Plus! and use it, not giving back any feedbacks nor posting here.
I thought that I have made my points clear enough and tried to hold a debate, not an arguement. If it appears to you that this whole talk has became a flamewar, then I have nothing else to say. Remember that the person who gives feedbacks actually pays attention to the program a lot and hopes that it can improve. TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions. Oh well...
I demand a lock. Thank you.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 09-03-2005 at 04:18 AM
Well you're requesting a feature, we have reasoned why this should not be added. Full stop.
To accept feedback does not mean blindly accepting everything people come and say.
Some suggestions may be good, others may not. This one certainly isn't for us testers.
Since when did you accept "workarounds" instead of "buttons". There already are workarounds I've been trying to explain you all the way through. But you don't seem to read. And then yet come and yell at us for being immature and ignoring your points.
Remember some others may have ignored or flamed you in our feet. Never forget it.
And sure we're pleased to hear your suggestions, but think that they may not be accepted and thank we just explained why.
Also, don't demand a lock that's being immature and not accepting other's replies to your acusations. Shame on that.
RE: RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-03-2005 at 06:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well you're requesting a feature, we have reasoned why this should not be added. Full stop.
To accept feedback does not mean blindly accepting everything people come and say.
Some suggestions may be good, others may not. This one certainly isn't for us testers.
Since when did you accept "workarounds" instead of "buttons". There already are workarounds I've been trying to explain you all the way through. But you don't seem to read. And then yet come and yell at us for being immature and ignoring your points.
Remember some others may have ignored or flamed you in our feet. Never forget it.
And sure we're pleased to hear your suggestions, but think that they may not be accepted and thank we just explained why.
Also, don't demand a lock that's being immature and not accepting other's replies to your acusations. Shame on that.
It is not the accepting or not accepting part. I understand if you are going to accept or not, but the way you are saying it does not make me want to contribute anything anymore, EVER. No, I am not the person who is not reading your posts, you guys are the people who are not reading my posts. See the quotes above. You guys are being plain ignorant at what I am saying and say something totally irrelevant. I suggested 3 buttons, while you guys are talking about buttons and shortcuts, which are irrelevant. From seeing the responds of other members here, I can say that they like the idea. It is just that you guys are not reading my posts, not me who is not reading your posts. Immature? If you say that talking about age is flaming and so on, aren't you the one who is immature? You guys also do not admit your mistakes, being ignorant at what I posted and plain pessimistic. I asked for a lock to avoid worse situation. In forums, there are lock features to avoid worse situations. Besides that, the point of this topic has been changed by the comments of you two and it is not what the topic is meant to be for anymore. That is why we need a lock. I have been a forummer for 2 years and I have my own forums. I know when we need a lock request and what flaming is. If you think that I am immature, sir, you are totally wrong. You guys are the ones who take my feedback as something I did not mean and is accusing me of flaming, being immature, and so on and so forth. If you read my posts with such attention, then you would know that I want 3 buttons, not buttons to format, buttons to change status, and so on. If you read my posts well enough, then you should have known that my intention is to suggest, not to fight with you guys. Since this has become a fight without my intention, this needs to be locked.
This is from a mouth (or maybe hands) of the person who never wanted a fight and got accused of flaming and acting immature without having done such things. I have had several debates and I can say that this is not a debate, but a fight. Who started this? Don't let me state the obvious. This needs to be locked. Period.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by albert on 09-03-2005 at 06:44 AM
I gotta admit I didn't read the whole thread, but some of the ideas seems good in a way, but Keystorm's also right in another way..
I think it is pretty hard for me to say weither yes or not I would like these features included, but I would say that it all comes down to Patchou at the end.. so.. ye that's his decision
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by multimillion2k on 09-03-2005 at 07:00 AM
Normally, I'd sit back and watch the blood spurt, but I do think that Poom was given the short end of the stick. The accusations of flaming were started by Sunshine and were unfortunately not justified, but I'm sure she had a busy day
I see no reason to stop the conversation, both Poom and KeyStone have made valid arguments. However, I suggest everyone shakes hands, hugs each other and cries as they reminisce about the good old days.
Regarding the extra buttons? I would not add them (perhaps one or two?) - sometimes making everything easy and accessible actually has quite the opposite effect.
edit:I've just reread the thread, and honestly? I think there has been a bit of misinterpretation going on. Perhaps by previously pointing the finger at sunshine I've just proved my own point..
(Sorry Sunshine! I know you weren't trying to flame Poom. I wasn't trying to flame you either. I mean, I'm still not trying to flame - I mean I wasn't - not - um..
* multimillion2k sighs)
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by viper2681 on 09-03-2005 at 07:12 AM
I kept telling myself I wouldn't join this petty argument, but I need to agree with PooM on this. Granted the average user should be smart enough to know the basics, but face the facts; the average user is shifting from teenagers to first time users. They won't know how to use shortcuts, and they don't know what the F1 button does. There are probably 25 to 30 percent of users that know the basics, and then there's the other 70 to 75 percent that make companies like Geek Squad rich over 404 Errors (yes, I've seen this happen).
Only a small fraction of computer users actually know what keyboard shortcuts are. Unfortunately, the only people that beta test are people that know what they're doing. I've seen a large amount of people going into my local CompUSA asking to buy a new computer because they're not able to go to a certain website, or their computer won't save images as anything but Bitmaps. If, by your standards, the average user is smart enough to know basics, then 70 to 75 percent of users are below average.
On a side note: Demanding a lock when a person feels a thread is spiraling out of control (which, I may add, this thread was), then the thread does in fact need to be locked. This is coming an Administrator of two forums, and a Moderator of three, with ties to people that have been PAID to be operators of IRC channels. It is not immature to do so at all, it would be called 'Stopping the fight before it starts' in this case.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Sunshine on 09-03-2005 at 10:16 AM
If Poom had not gone into asumptions this convo would have been done with already. Seriously what does our age have to do with it, or how much we chat? To me this felt like he was telling us we aren't doing our jobs properly (lack of respect). Keystorm explained everything, yet Poom wasn't reading and kept holding on how "good" his idea is. I explained the whole thing in a different way, same result.
Dragging TB into the whole conversation was wrong aswell and totally not to the point (this was again an assumption that we don't listen).
[OFFTOPIC]
Poom, take a look at my Bio (in profile)..you can see i also betatest stuffplug and therefor work closely with TB aswell (yup, we met even..search forums for Paris and/or London).
[/OFFTOPIC]
quote:Even so, that is not a reason to bloat Plus! with buttons..wich imo makes everything more confusing even (and ugly to look at). If they don't know, they can learn right? It will benefit them in the long run. And there's always the rightclick menu, what is so hard about that (that's another thing that is basic in every single program)?
Originally posted by viper2681
Granted the average user should be smart enough to know the basics, but face the facts; the average user is shifting from teenagers to first time users. They won't know how to use shortcuts, and they don't know what the F1 button does. There are probably 25 to 30 percent of users that know the basics, and then there's the other 70 to 75 percent that make companies like Geek Squad rich over 404 Errors (yes, I've seen this happen).
quote:You can rest assured that the tabbed convo feature is tested properly and that we are and will make suggestions in how to make it better before it is released to the public to make sure everybody will be pleased with it (experienced and inexperienced users). Patchou and betatesters work closely together to make all this possible. We do listen to suggestions, but also comment on it (because we know what we are talking about)..if this is taken the wrong way then sorry (don't expect us to cheer for every single suggestion made).
Only a small fraction of computer users actually know what keyboard shortcuts are. Unfortunately, the only people that beta test are people that know what they're doing.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 09-03-2005 at 12:46 PM
Well, I share the opinion of Cookie (another Tester and a senior in this board as great helper):
There's two ways to make interfaces: The easy dumb-making way and the learner's way.
The dumb-making way is based upon users not having any knowledge about shotrtcuts and context menues and having it all displayed and placed obvious and/or non-standard to make the use easier. This won't help people to get used the way WIndows works. All applications have features hidden to the first look (and specially MS apps)
The learner's way is based upon adding methods the user may not know, but helping to discover them. This will help them understand there's a series of features and methods that, although relatively unknown, they should learn to be more productive with all other application. Like using Photoshop without shortcuts makes you like 30% slower. A couple of days ago I suggested something that would make several things easier to "girlie-users" but still not have it all simply displayed on screen (see [suggestion] Tip of the day).
For the others, don't get on Sunshine, because it's true that he stated wrong supossitions trying to ofend me (although stating the opposite). I mean what kind of argument is stating that I'm 30+. I know 30+ people who never used a computer and I know 30+ who are compute genius.
He was also presuming I don't use Messenger while I wouldn't be Elite nor Tester nor Translator if I didn't.
To make some things clear to you, Poom:
Poom. I've been using Messenger Plus! for 3 years now, I've been in these forums for 2 years and I'm driving my (helped by several other Hispanic people around) own successful Hispanic Messenger Plus! forums for 1 year. As an admin you may post the last locking post because your decision is the last decision, but here you aren't and you can't "demand" a lock in such way, not letting people reply to your acusations! This is common sense, so don't come calling us immature, because it's you whos behaving like that!
Also, I spend everyday at least some time for chatting with friends, co-workers, co-admins, colleagues helping people in solving their problems and I'm usually online 24h.
This should not interest anyone, but as it seems you think you're top and better than the rest, I'm telling you that you get back on earth and stop thinking so selfishly acusing us of being inaccurate or insensible.
RE: RE: RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by CookieRevised on 09-03-2005 at 01:49 PM
quote:Be very sure that we (testers) _do_ read whole threads (if we don't, we say so) and understand posts very good and quick. The thing is that we also immediatly see beyond what is suggested, what the consequences are of some suggestions, etc. We don't stare blindly on the suggestion only, we immediatly see further then that (and that's the difference between a reply with "I like this" and the replies you got).
Originally posted by Poom
No, I am not the person who is not reading your posts, you guys are the people who are not reading my posts. See the quotes above. You guys are being plain ignorant at what I am saying and say something totally irrelevant.
Thus it is exactly about that what KeyStorm and the others were telling you about. So, please don't accuse KeyStorm and the others for not reading and what not! They understand your points very well, in fact they may understand it better then you do (in a way) as they do have access to the beta's and the knowledge of the whole picture (as adding a feature is _never_ an easy streat forward job; there are always things you need to take in concideration). Also, the testers consist of people who know what they are talking about when it comes to (G)UI's and making something userfriendly, they know how both new users and experienced users interract with a program, in fact some are even professional designers of these things...
This not being ignorant or even irrelevant at all.
If you want to accuse us of something, then you can only accuse us of immediatly beginning to talk about all the underlying stuff and consequences of suggestions etc, instead of simply stating "I like this" or "I don't like it" without any arguments or whatever. If you interpret that as not reading and not listening (as this is how this discussion started), then I'm sorry to say it, but then you're wrong.
Anyways, back to the subject...
quote:They are certainly not irrelevant. This is one of the things I talked about above; those are things which we think about immediatly if you add such buttons. They go hand in hand...
Originally posted by Poom
I suggested 3 buttons, while you guys are talking about buttons and shortcuts, which are irrelevant.
quote:Liking something and seeing the bigger picture of something being added are totally two different things. And if I may be so blunt, non-testers have, in this case, not the knowledge to talk about/see all the consequences of this as they don't have access to the latest private beta's (where things are already different than in the leaked beta you based your suggestion on).
Originally posted by Poom
From seeing the responds of other members here, I can say that they like the idea.
quote:If you think beyond your simple suggestion then this is what it is going to be. People will "demand" for more buttons. Buttons which are far less usefull. There is a line to be drawn. And that line is currently no extra buttons with doubtfull usefullness.
Originally posted by Poom
If you read my posts with such attention, then you would know that I want 3 buttons, not buttons to format, buttons to change status, and so on.
And about those buttons:
1) the add contact buttons is pretty useless, double clicking on the tray icon opens your contactlist and from there you can choose whoever you want _and_ in the way you want it sorted and viewed. This can't be achieved by the method you mentionned. And there wont be an extra dialog be made especially for this, as it will be nothing more then a stripped down contactlist on its own, making it again pretty useless and double work (unless a second contactlist is made, which is obviously double work for nothing).
2) the ungroup/group buttons aren't needed also as this will be achieved directly with the mouse. And you also have shortcuts and a context menu you can use. Because of these available ways, adding buttons aren't nessecairly needed and thus it would only make the GUI bloated and confusing.
3) the close buttons aren't needed also. The standard close button (the cross) will simply keep its function. This is the most logical and most intuitive way. Closing all tabs together isn't something which will be done many times (in fact, very rarely) and thus adding a button especially for that is not needed. Furthermore, it will make the chance of accidently closing all convo's very big. Thus, not user friendly at all.
4) The arrows, to navigate, or of course already there.
----------------
quote:It is mostly in the way he asked it. Demanding is not something you do on a board and especially not when you're new or in such a situation like this. It could have been asked in normal friendly manner...
Originally posted by viper2681
On a side note: Demanding a lock when a person feels a thread is spiraling out of control (which, I may add, this thread was), then the thread does in fact need to be locked. This is coming an Administrator of two forums, and a Moderator of three, with ties to people that have been PAID to be operators of IRC channels. It is not immature to do so at all, it would be called 'Stopping the fight before it starts' in this case.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-03-2005 at 02:13 PM
quote:
If Poom had not gone into asumptions this convo would have been done with already. Seriously what does our age have to do with it, or how much we chat? To me this felt like he was telling us we aren't doing our jobs properly (lack of respect). Keystorm explained everything, yet Poom wasn't reading and kept holding on how "good" his idea is. I explained the whole thing in a different way, same result.
Now, I think that you three are getting wayyy too biassed. You lef out your own mistakes and try to mention only my mistakes, which is a few comparing to yours. What about saying that I am flaming? I see that the word "flaming" has gone from your mouth when you realised that it is your mistake. Also, I see that the whole thing about immature by demanding lock request has gone. What you are accusing me now is saying 30+ thing and the chat often or not.
Of course, you do not get what the 30+ thing means. I did not try to offend you in anyway and I already mentioned that. The point is that when people are getting older, they like simpler programs. Dynamic DPs and such are "bloats" to the older target group, while my friends like them. There is a difference when people get old. I have never said such thing that 30+ people are dumb and do not program well, KeyStrom.
As for the chatting a lot, that is for the ungroup button. If you acutally chat to, say 5 people at the same time, talking in tabs WILL BE VERY ANNOYING. I chat with 5 people at the same time in Trillian a lot. Is that relevant? Is that offending you?
Since when have I said that you guys are not doing your jobs properly. I have never said those things at all. Have I said that you guys are dumb old people who do not have anyone to chat to? That is all the accusation you guys are putting towards me. What about the part that you directly insult me as immature when I wanted a lock to avoid further fight? Isn't that even worse? What about accusing me for flaming when there is no sign of flaming?
How could this chat end when you guys are accusing me of things that I have never done? It is as if 3 of you are trying to gang up on me without a reason. Maybe Cookie has received biassed information. In history, we learn to look at both sides and don't depend on one source. Cookie, look there for a minute and see if I have insulted KeyStrom or SunShine. KeyStrom directly insulted me as immature while SunShine directly accused me of flaming without the truth. Now, SunShine is not using the word flaming anymore. There are things that you guys need to think about.
KeyStrom, I am lazy to quote, but no, I did not ask for a lock request because I am wrong. I asked for a lock request because the topic is not what it is meant for and you are starting a fight. I have never said that I am the top in anyway. Since when did I say that? Accusing you guys? Isn't that MY word? Isn't your "I've been using Messenger Plus! for 3 years now, I've been in these forums for 2 years and I'm driving my (helped by several other Hispanic people around) own successful Hispanic Messenger Plus! forums for 1 year." more like "I am the best" than what I posted? Dude, you are saying what I am supposed to say. I don't know when I have accused you without accuracy, more like what you are doing. I give prooves, but where are yours? You say that I think I am the best and that I accuse you of the wrong things, but where are your prooves? I am giving you proofs.
Besides, if you really read my posts with attention, what about the things I quoted? Don't you admit your mistakes? You are accusing me without anyquote nor any truth.
Demanding a lock is something that is actually something you do on a board. Maybe you havn't been in many webbaords, Cookie. There are lots of lock request in messageboards and it is not something immature. Saying that it is not something on a board shows that you havn't been in enough messageboard and makes you look immature, not me.
If you have worked with TB a lot, then what about the comment KeyStrom made towards Stuffplug? That is a very bizzare thing.
Stop all the program stuff and admit your mistake first, or else the conversation will never go in the right direction.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by CookieRevised on 09-03-2005 at 02:22 PM
quote:Yes you did. In the way you said certain things (eg: the age thing; if you said that like you did in that previous post than there wouldn't have been any flaming about that. The first time you mentionned it was indeed not very friendly towards +30's and could easly be taken as offensive (I took it offensive also)). So, you may not have insulted them directly, but you surely did indirectly...
Originally posted by Poom
Cookie, look there for a minute and see if I have insulted KeyStrom or SunShine.
And they insulted you back directly.
quote:There is that demanding tone again
Originally posted by Poom
Stop all the program stuff and admit your mistake first, or else the conversation will never go in the right direction.
we don't need to do anything. Also, there were no mistakes made, there is nothing to admit (excl. the flaming from _both_ sides)...
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Poom on 09-03-2005 at 02:29 PM
=_=a You sure read my posts with real good attention.[/sarcasm]
I indirectly insulted you guys? Sine when have I? When does "You 30+ years old!" become an insult? Didn't I clarify what I actually meant? Besides, isn't direct flaming the act of imature? This is very bizarre, VERY BIZARRE. Yuo guys don't even read my posts and say that you "understand things very well without having to read much". I don't know since when has the word "30+" become an insult to you when I actually said that there was no offense intended and sorry if I did offend you with that. I have also explained why I have said that. If I really want to be the best and am out of earth, I would not have said such things, especially "sorry". I am a buddhist and buddhism does not teach me to try to be the best, but to humble and admit when a mistake is made.
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by Patchou on 09-03-2005 at 06:11 PM
Why oh why such kind of thread ended up like this? please, everyone, cool down and go back to the original post. I really don't want to see this kind of attitude on the forum, let's all be friend, hands in hands .
Thank you for the suggestions Poom however, it's a little early for that. I suggest you wait and try version 3.60 and after using it, feel free to come back and post your suggestions to improve it .
RE: [split] Tab Suggestion by KeyStorm on 09-03-2005 at 06:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Poom
KeyStrom directly insulted me as immature
It's not an insult, its a founded opinion, others may be sharing with me or not. Don't take things out of context, once again.
And my pseudo is KeyStorm.quote:
Who said that? Firstly, you're not wrong, you just have an opinion Sunshine, Cookie and I don't share. Secondly, you didn't ask for a lock, you demanded a lock.
Originally posted by Poom
I did not ask for a lock request because I am wrongquote:
This is just for you to stop making wrong suppositions about me, which is very offending in my culture, and I'm pretty sure in your's, too.
Originally posted by Poom
more like "I am the best" than what I posted?
My life is uninteresting to you and I don't like to tell what I am and what I'm not. But I plainly can't accept epople coming and making blind and stupid remarks about what I do and what I don't.quote:
I've been showing you with arguments and proofs why I don't share your opinion and why I find your words towards me offending during all the damn thread. Will you just read?
Originally posted by Poom
I am giving you proofsquote:
Demanding, demanding, demanding... That makes you immature. You just demand things to be done your way and if someone (namely me myself) opposes your opinion you raise with sarcasm, ignoring, and distorting our words. What else do you expect form us? To apologise? For what, gods' sake?!
Originally posted by Poom
Demanding a lock is something that is actually something you do on a board. Maybe you havn't been in many webbaords, Cookie. There are lots of lock request in messageboards and it is not something immature. Saying that it is not something on a board shows that you havn't been in enough messageboard and makes you look immature, not me.
quote:
Happy you, then you yourself will not discover you're making mistakes unless you listen to others. If you don't want to listen to us, then just don't annoy us with your sarcasm and "I know best" posting. We have explained you with plenty of reasons why we don't like that concept UI additions. You don't seem to want to listen to us and just wanna hear people approving your work.
Originally posted by Poom
I am a buddhist and buddhism does not teach me to try to be the best, but to humble and admit when a mistake is made.
Well, then I humbly think that goes against your culture/religion, I blindly assume that, because it's a way to ignore the bad critics one gets from outside.
You should not feel sorry for people in the age of 30+ If I understood right. I think people of 30+ may feel offended because you state wrong things about them that should in your opinion be linked to that age.
Edit:
^This is my line, it's true, the thread should not go on this way...
quote:I humbly offer my hand.
Originally posted by Patchou
hands in hands