As a Brazilian fan of MsgPlus, I must support Heyder and his work.

I prefer to use MsgPlus in english than use Portuguese from Portugal translation. It´s simply irritating read "Ficheiro", "Palavra Passe" (incompressible), and the 'c' in "contacto", "actualizar" and others.

Please Patchou, make the translation offcial to us.  I´m sure that this act will made the MsgPlus more Popular than ever in Brazil (it´s already popular).  Brazil is one of biggers Internet Country User, just see the researchs. In Orkut, Fotolog, we are majority. The numbers of MSN users in Brazil are at least 8x greatter than MSN users in Portugal.



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A little comment about the closed thread:

Gonçalo Ferreira says soo many nonsenses in his post that make me sick.

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two things a) the differences are in fact rare and not significant (if you know how to read the language)

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I don’t know if this is the correct way to say this in english

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Well, it's known that in Brazil many words are adapted (or realy are) from the english, like that one could probably be, and I believe that way you can more easily understand what it's referring to, but there are
some reasons not to use it, namely a) there's a clear translation, so there's no reason not to translate it, b) the whole translation is supposed to be read by any kind of people, including doctors and children that only know it's mother language and c) the whole translation must be absolutely formal, direct to the point, and in absolute conformity with the grammar (I must also add that our translation is checked by a certified and experienced portuguese teacher apart from the team, so I can honestly tell you that our translation would certainly fit on any iso-certification rules )

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We have it as "ficheiro" and you changed it to "arquivo" (archive). Well, obviously "ficheiro" is the most correct way to translate "file".

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but the reason not to use it is that "palavra passe" is more accurate to the situation, "senha" is not so catchy for first-time users and less experienced users on computres, not to mention that other portuguese software’s use "palavra passe" so we decided to keep the uniformity on this one.

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After talking to some brazillian friends, the only actual difference to their way of speaking by looking to our translation is just the "c"s which is, in their own words, "irrelevant".

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My friend Eduardo,
Thank you very much for their solidarity words and defense in my favor. Is for people like you (and so many other Brazilian) that me cheer up in continuing to post the translation,  ignoring the that only know to do critics no constructive and accusations futile to my work. ...thank you for the help.
Be comfortable to collaborate, to point my mistakes of translation with the objective of getting better, to give ideas, better words, finally. . . Two heads thinking with a common objective is always better than just one. I thank your solidarity once again.

Meu caro, Eduardo, valeu!
Muito obrigado por suas palavras de solidariedade e defesa em meu favor. É por pessoas como você (e tantos outros brasileiros) que a gente se anima em continuar postanto essa tradução, alheio aos que só sabem fazer críticas não construtivas e acusações hilárias ao seu trabalho. Você realmente foi incisivo (curto e grosso, como se diz) em suas afirmações... obrigado pela ajuda.
Fique à vontade para colaborar, apontar erros meus de tradução com o objetivo de melhorar, dar idéias, melhores palavras, enfim... Duas cabeças pensando com um objetivo comum é sempre melhor que apenas uma. Agradeço mais uma vez sua solidariedade.

Dr. Heyder

[OFF TOPIC]

xBellox, mind you that there are already tons of threads about this discussion and it actually didn't needed yet another one as everything is already been said before. You might as well revive an old (still open) thread about it if you like....

Simply searching the forum would have revealed them.

And thus one of the reasons why the thread is closed is because there are already several of them and none have added more information then others....

[/OFF TOPIC]

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Anyways, from an outsider point of view...

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Originally posted by xBellox

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two things a) the differences are in fact rare and not significant (if you know how to read the language)

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Are you really a translator??? This is a kind of afirmation that none translator should say. The differences are NOT rare neither not significant.

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Originally posted by xBellox

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I don’t know if this is the correct way to say this in english

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Ok, now you have answered me the previous question

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Originally posted by xBellox
Man, you REALLY don´t known NOTHING about Portuguese from Brazil. Many words in Brazil are in English and is in OFFICIALS dictionaries like "DICIONÁRIO HOUAISS DA LÍNGUA PORTUGUESA" and "Melhoramentos". One of those words is, peharps, "status".

So don´t try to tell us, how we should to translate our own language.

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Originally posted by xBellox

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After talking to some brazillian friends, the only actual difference to their way of speaking by looking to our translation is just the "c"s which is, in their own words, "irrelevant".

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I´m certainly not your friend, but the "c"´s aren´t relevant to understand, but is the same to say that we don´t need to translate for eg "no" because everybody understand it.

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i hate that "ficheiro" and 'c' too

just cant look it

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from what I've seen by comparing the two translations (the one from Heyder and the official portuguese one), the differences _are_ very rare.

So either he did simply copy most of it, or either there is not real difference between the written langauges (note that there is a difference between a written language and a spoken language)

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About dictionnaries: they aren't the holy grale! They contain many mistakes too

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i hate that "ficheiro" and 'c' too

just cant look it

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Originally posted by xBellox

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Cara, eu hoje não estou muito bem humorado e dei o azar de ler as asneiras que um dos administradores deste forum escreveu pra mim no trecho que foi simplesmente MOVIDO do meu thread. Assim, minha resposta foi curta e grossa.

Sabe, eu já estou de saco cheio de alguns babacas deste forum. Vou simplesmente postar minhas traduções e pronto. No máximo, responderei aos brasileiros que postarem pra mim. Ficaria grato se você pudesse me ajudar na tarefa de tradução (pense como e sugira). Outra coisa, vou falar português apenas por aqui. Você viu o que esses bundões fizeram? Além de fechar meu thread com argumentos mentirosos, moveram-no para o lixo. Pra mim chega. Eu não tenho saco de papai noel...

BAIXA BRASIL !!! Messenger Plus! v3.6.144 em português do BRASIL:
Clique aqui: --->>> http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=51158

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Originally posted by xBellox
Another question, if those lanaguages are soo similar (and they aren´t), why don´t use the most spoked, most used language as the primary?

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It isn't only about what is spoken the most.

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Yeah!

Great job Heyder, let´s do an "pedaaallaaaa robinho" or "pedallaaaa babacas" on the closed minds of this forum. Let the Gonçalo with his ego, because he knowns that his translation are less popular than yours

Keep with the good job!

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É isso ai Heyder deixa esses bbabbacas pra lá... Eles têm uma mente muiito pequena. Parabens pelo excelente trabalho! Nem conferi ainda, mas tenho certeza de que a legenda está ótima

Jeeeeeeeeeeeez!

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Originally posted by xBellox

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It isn't only about what is spoken the most.

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So, is about what?

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In my p.o.v. the Brazilian Portuguese might be considered as an "evolution" of the difference between the English used in the United States vs United Kingdom.
Besides the different accent (much like the spoken American English it to British), they got rid of the "c" and "p" in words where they were typed but not spelled, introduced many half Portuguese-half English words and have many more slang words that became official and some more minor differences. For example we use "ficheiro" a direct translation from "File" but they use "Arquivo" that is a direct translation of "Archive". That's pretty much it, most of the differences come from similar words that are no longer used fluently there.

I'm from Portugal and therefor am in a better position to talk about the differences. Since most of the Brazilians see us Portugal as a 3rd world country and don't care much about our culture. Here we have a lot of Brazilian shows on TV (like soap operas) and on Cable we have some Brazilian channels too.
So the culture flow is much bigger from there to here.
I'd like to read some comments about this from some Brazilians too.

Many, many, many other programs have only Brazilian translations, and probably because of the "flow" that I referred before, the Portuguese users got used to that more easily.
But in this case the Portuguese translation came before the Brazilian one. It's not that they can't understand it, it's just that they're not used to it. And as you can see the "arquivo" is the result of a bad translation.

Like shown in the other Thread, most of the languages' conflicts grow from the misuse of some words or expressions.
I dare you to find programs with Brazilian-only translations and point those which have forum threads of Portuguese users complaining.

I'm don't disagree with a Brazilian translation. If someone shows a great work, why not using it?

Thats very good i really support the idea and i strongly disagree with Gonçalo and the other guy which even told me to shut up in a pm..stupid guy..
I hope you people dont think all portuguese people are the same.


Patchou explained his reasons not to include the translations of the countries who adopted a certain language as their own but i still dont think its fair.


Be happy.

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Originally posted by paperless
1) Thats very good i really support the idea and i strongly disagree with Gonçalo and the other guy which even told me to shut up in a pm..stupid guy... 2) I hope you people dont think all portuguese people are the same. 3) Patchou explained his reasons not to include the translations of the countries who adopted a certain language as their own but i still dont think its fair.

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Hi Heyder,

I'd like to congratulate you for your great work. Your individual initiative and effort deserves a loud clap from all of us Messenger Plus Brazilian users.

Since I've read the discussion over pt x pt-BR, I'd like to leave my two cents:

Although Brazilian Portuguese was born from "European" Portuguese, they can not be considered as being the same language. Distant grown brothers, if we consider the written Portuguese, and really distant cousins if we consider the talked Portuguese . Languages are live things, that evolve and transform, adapting itself to the cultural and economic context. And Brazilian Portuguese grew apart from its distant brother, receiving influences from native people ("indios") and immigratory waves (japaneses, italians, germans, lebaneses etc). It's why it's called "Brazilian Portuguese", and not only "Portuguese";

Due this characteristic the "Brazilian Portuguese" is much more flexible and prone to accept neologism and foreignism. We do not bother in keep the word "mouse" to designate the input device, because the device does not resemble a "rato" for us. We use "monitor" (a short for "monitor de video") instead of "écran" (nobody knows the word "écran" in Brazil) because we already had this word from TV (sometimes we use "tela" to designate the specific area of the "monitor" where the images are displayed). We use "arquivo" for "file", and it is OK for us, because a "file" can contain a lot of "documents" - the same way a real "arquivo" does. And if somebody insists in the word "ficheiro" as a more specific translation for "file", even so it wouldn't be the correct word for us, because we use "fichário" instead of "ficheiro";

As we can see the roots of our language can be the same but nowadays there are some differences. And in specific areas, as computers and technology, there is *a lot* of diferences. It is so clear that a lot of big players in the software industry translated their softwares to Brazilian Portuguese. My Win2K is pt-BR. My Office2k too. And my CorelDraw Suite, my children's "The Sims 2", my TextPad (if somebody asks for an European company) are pt-BR. And my OpenOffice 2.0, and my Firefox too! And, mainly, my Messenger is pt-BR...

Well, what more can I say? It's really a pity that the author of the this great software don't deserves some attention to your initiative. Maybe you hadn't started it in a so organized way, as the "pt team" stated. But, wait! Was they a "managed", "organized" and "efficient" team when *they* started? I don't think so...

A final thought: don't get annoyed by some comments made by the "official portuguese team". What I could seen through these posts was not collaboration or constructive criticism. It's mainly vanity and jealousy. As our desire to use a good Brazilian localized version would be a threat for their "establishment"... I don't give a damn (sorry) to people who think like them. You shouldn't too. Keep the good work going, and if I can help you something you can count on me.

Um abraço

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Originally posted by m@c@ub@

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[SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC]

Discussing this issue is good. Telling your thoughts is good. Even making suggestions or build upon and giving arguments is good.

But please stop the accusing and name calling towards some people, and especially towards Patchou.

It is extremely annoying that this name calling and hidden flaming keeps going on!!! This does not make your case look good. In fact if you keep this up, more and more people will start hating you for that.

What is so hard to understand that there are rules to be followed for adding a language? This has got nothing todo with Patchou not caring or even hating Brazilian people, because he does not!.

I constantly read insuations in the posts of Brazilian people that all non-Brazilians, and especially the Portuguese, are just jealus and can't give positive or constructive critism? Sorry but you do exact the same with these constant insinuations...

If you can't understand that not adding the translation has got nothing todo with Patchou not caring or hating Brazilian people, then it is not time for the others to rethink their arguments or motives, but you...

The objectivness I try to maintain while reading these discussions as an outsider is constantly dropping and my sympathy for this case  is more and more shifting towards the Portuguese side instead of staying in the middle....

I don't think these constant insinuations towards others and especially Patchou help at all in making the brazilian translation being added... on the contrary...

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Originally posted by xBellox
let´s do an "pedaaallaaaa robinho" or "pedallaaaa babacas" on the closed minds of this forum.

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Originally posted by m@c@ub@
t's really a pity that the author of the this great software don't deserves some attention to your initiative.

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Originally posted by m@c@ub@
What I could seen through these posts was not collaboration or constructive criticism. It's mainly vanity and jealousy. As our desire to use a good Brazilian localized version would be a threat for their "establishment"... I don't give a damn (sorry) to people who think like them.

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Originally posted by Heyder
Is really a sad that Patchou don't care with the Brazilian peoples.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
1) But please stop the accusing and name calling towards some people, and especially towards Patchou.
2) What is so hard to understand that there are rules to be followed for adding a language? This has got nothing todo with Patchou not caring or even hating Brazilian people, because he does not!.
3) I constantly read insuations in the posts of Brazilian people that all non-Brazilians, and especially the Portuguese, are just jealus and can't give positive or constructive critism? Sorry but you do exact the same with these constant insinuations...
4) If you can't understand that not adding the translation has got nothing todo with Patchou not caring or hating Brazilian people, then it is not time for the others to rethink their arguments or motives, but you...
5) The objectivness I try to maintain while reading these discussions as an outsider is constantly dropping and my sympathy for this case  is more and more shifting towards the Portuguese side instead of staying in the middle....
6) So after constantly reading these accusations I don't find it strange at all that other people heavly oppose the question for adding the Brazillian translation.
7) Is this how all Brazillians are? I hope not...

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Read the quotes in my previous post... those quotes are made by you and others. And those quotes are CLEARLY name calling and uncalled-for accusations which has got NOTHING to do with why BR is not added...

And the reasons why BR is not added as of yet, have been CLEARLY stated over and over again. But if you (plural) fail to read and understand them that's not our fault and not Patchou's fault... and is BY NO MEANS a freeguide to start accusing Patchou from things which have got absolutely nothing todo with this.

I just answer for me, not for others.
I insist: Patchou makes a great work and Messenger Plus! it is an excellent software. However, his support to the Brazilian language is almost anything.
Please, CookieRevised, could you mention (to enumerate) the "rules" that justify NOT adding the translation BR? I think that so, all the Brazilians will CLEARLY be able to analyze the reasons.

Thank´s,
Dr. Heyder
BRasil

What, Mr.CookieRevised??? Did I accuse Patchou something? Did I say he hates Brazilian People???? Did I say that "non-Brazilians and especially Portuguese are jealous etc."? Sorry Mr., or you are going insane, or is trying to start a fight using a coward's strategy: gossip!!

If you read carefully what I wrote in my previous post you'll notice that: 1st) I thanked Mr. Heyder; 2nd) I said why I think the pt-BR should coexists with the pt version; 3rd) I regretted that Mr.Patchou hadn't payed attention to Mr.Heyder efforts (did he return his e-mail? did he even say a simple "no tanks"?); 4th) I said: "Maybe the way Heyder had started his volunteer work was not so good. But did he found a receptive community that, with it's experience and will, helped him to find the right way?" Well, some tried, but it was eclipsed by the behavior of some people that lead me to my final comment:

"don't get annoyed by some comments made by the official portuguese team"

And this "some comments" is related mainly to Mr.Gonçalo F. and his totally unproductive post, that instead of try to elucidate and help tried to put Heyder down with obnoxious nonsense comments. Not only he said nonsense, but certainly he was the worse one. Maybe in my anger to support Mr.Heyder initiative I made a mistake of generalize saying "the official Portuguese team", and I apologize myself for those who don't think and act like Mr Gonçalo. And this is MY opinion Mr Gonçalo. You don't need to loose your time answering me, because I won't loose mine replying you.

And that is, Mr.CookieRevisited. I didn't want to cite names because I didn't want to start that argument again, but you forced me to do it, since you tried to put lies in my mouth. And what for? I really don't know.



Olá Heyder,

Estava aqui redigindo a resposta ao amigo biscoito e estava prestes a entrar no mérito do porquê do outro distinto ter falado um monte de besteiras, quando me dei conta: "Peraí? Por que estou perdendo meu tempo nessa briga besta? Se o próprio dono do programa não está nem aí para o problema, se eu não vou ganhar nada com isso, se o programa, apesar de bom e divertido, não é essencial para o meu estudo e trabalho, por que vou ficar esquentando a cabeça com isso?"

Desculpe se te criei algum problema na tentativa de defendê-lo. Não era minha intenção. Infelizmente vou ter que deixar um mínimo de resposta ao amigo biscoito porque ele está fazendo um joguinho sujo que generaliza uma posição ruim para os Brasileiros. Mas não vou me estender além disso, porque não vale a pena.

Deixo um abraço para você, e reitero a minha oferta inicial de ajudá-lo enviando qualquer problema que eu descobrir, ou, caso você queira a minha opinião sobre alguma coisa é só me chamar.

M@c@úb@

p.s.: desculpe, mas não consigo deixar passar: vá até o www.guiadeportugal.pt, informe "casa de pasto" na busca por restaurantes e veja o resultado. Pode ser até que o termo esteja caindo em desuso, ou designe mais um boteco do que um restaurante. Mas daí para dar uma de "indignado", somente para criar celeuma e tirar o foco da discussão, foi realmente uma estratégia baixa. E é exatamente o mesmo que o amigo biscoito está tentando fazendo agora... Bom, chega desse assunto improdutivo! Um abraço novamente, Heyder.

quote:

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Originally posted by m@c@ub@
What, Mr.CookieRevised??? Did I accuse Patchou something? Did I say he hates Brazilian People???? Did I say that "non-Brazilians and especially Portuguese are jealous etc."? Sorry Mr., or you are going insane, or is trying to start a fight using a coward's strategy: gossip!!

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Originally posted by m@c@ub@
Olá Heyder, (...)

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Grande m@c@ub@!

Antes de mais nada, mais uma vez obrigado por sua solidariedade e tentativa de ajudar no esforço de despertar algum interesse do criador deste programa nos Brasileiros. Agora, essa foi muito boa!!! Foi fantástica essa procura por "Casa de Pasto" no site www.guiadeportugal.pt, obrigado. É mesmo incrível o número de estabelecimentos "Regionais" obtidos!!! Isto é porque a palavra não existe por lá...

Meu amigo, concordo com você. Eu já tinha chegado a essa conclusão: que é perda de tempo ficar argumentando sobre o assunto de adicionar o pt-BR ao setup do Messenger. O meu problema é que, como você, não "aguento" ler certas colocações ridículas por aqui sem postar alguma coisa... mas vou tentar me controlar (risos)...

Não há de quê se desculpar, amigo! Uma "discussãozinha" destas faz a gente rir um pouco das bobagens e interpretações errôneas escritas... Você não me criou nenhum problema não! Quem cria problemas por aqui são aqueles que interpretam mal o que se escreve, os que escrevem besteira e os que, ao invés de ajudar, atrapalham.

Gostaria, sim, de contar com você e sua ajuda crítica para qualquer sugestão quanto à tradução. Noto que você redige bem, além de escrever de forma clara e simples. Isso é importante e bem vindo a uma tradução. Quem sabe na próxima versão do Messenger Plus!, se você quiser e puder dispor de tempo pra isso, a gente faz as adaptações juntos. Por enquanto, se quiser, faça uma revisão crítica da minha tradução e, de comum acordo, podemos postar uma revisão D. Fique à vontade!

Grande abraço e não suma!

Dr. Heyder
BRasil
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Thank´s for his solidarity and attempt of helping in the wake effort some interest of the creator of this program in the translation Brazilians. It fantastic the search for "Casa de Pasto" in the site www.guiadeportugal.pt, thank you. It is really incredible the number of "Regional" establishments!!! That is because the phrase doesn't exist...

My friend, I agree with you. I already the had conclusion: is waste of time to be arguing on the subject of adding it pt-BR to the setup of Messenger. My problem is that to read certain placements for here I always posting something...

You don't need to excuse. You didn't create me any problem. Who creates problems for here, are those that interpret badly that it is written, the ones that write nonsense and the ones that, instead of helping, cause disturb.

I would like, yes, of counting with you and his critical help for any suggestion for the translation. I notice that you write well, writing in a clear and simple way. This is important and well coming to a translation. Possibly in next version of Messenger Plus!, if you want and it can disposal of time for that, we make the adaptations together. If you want, make a critical revision of my translation and, of common agreement, we can post a revision D. Thank´s!

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
This said, I also do hope that Mr Heyder takes up on your offer into helping him making the translation more accurate.

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