If this post is in the wrong place I apologize... but I've moved this stupid thing twice now because it was apparently posted in the wrong place. If there is a forum or topic area where someone can make a suggestion regarding a new "nice to have" MsgPlus feature it isn't jumping out at me.. sorry...

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So here it is...

I have several friends and family members that I talk to using Messenger and not all of the people I talk with are in my time zone or even in the same country. I think it would be extremely useful if the current date and time (where they are located) could be optionally displayed along side their name... I don't know of an IRC application that enables you to associate date and time information for the location of someone in your chat list.

Seems like a useful idea, but couldnt you just ask the person you're talking to?

I suppose so... but I could also ask them their status or ask them their name or ask them what music they were listening to... I'm not interested in the time for time's sake... I may want to coordinate a conversation between myself a a couple of other people and we may all be in different timezones or countries... there are any number of reasons that being able to see what time it is where they are is useful to me...

You can write down anything per contact with MsgPlus!, such as the timezone (GTM -0300, for example).

Simply right-click on the contact, on the "Messenger Plus! Extras" sub-menu pick "Contact Information...". You will be able to write anything for that specific contact. You can also access this by the commands /whois or /info

I know this isn't an automatic solution, but it's an alternative.

Thanks, but I realize that anything can be written into the notes including the time reference. However, as you pointed out - it doesn't automatically calculate the time and I don't have the desire to calculate current GMT -3 or GMT +10... The time wouldn't necessarily need to be next to the name if, for example, in addition to having name, status, notes, etc when you run the mouse over someone's name the time in their location were included... as for the local time being inaccurate... that's always a possibiity... its also possible to spell your own name wrong too I guess...

Sounds nice to add, but it is actually very difficult to add this in a decent correct and automatic way considering all the different DST settings and different times around the world when DST is enabled/disabled. And DST times are not fixed and can change from year to year, etc. They aren't even always enabled at the same (relative) time around the world...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Sounds nice to add, but it is actually very difficult to add this in a decent correct and automatic way considering all the different DST settings and different times around the world when DST is enabled/disabled. And DST times are not fixed and can change from year to year, etc. They aren't even always enabled at the same (relative) time around the world...

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I realize that there are what seem to be an infinite number of places on this planet that use Daylight Savings Time and that not all of them go into effect at the same time nor do each of them end at the same time... however, software is great at allowing one to:

   1. Enter an offset from GMT.
   2. Indicate IF DST is applicable.
   3. Enter WHEN DST BEGINS
   4. Enter WHEN DST ENDS

Certainly, more difficult problems with far more variables have been solved by software engineers than this...

Of course it is possible, I never said it wasn't.

But I do pointed out that such a feature isn't that trivial and easy to implement just like that as how it first was portrayed, hence why I posted my previous reply.

As you pointed out, there are also other things to consider when creating such a plugin other than simply adding a field where you put the GMT offset in. And because of the nature of time offsets, it is as good as impossible to do everything automatically without much user input as it first was requested.

It indeed requires a lot of user input (filling in all the variables) and this input needs to be redone each year from scratch btw. But once this is done, it could run nicely.

But because of this, the question rises weither this is a good thing to do; the right way to follow... Isn't there a better method for all this? eg: instead of putting all those variables in, put 1 variable in connected to a website which does have all this info updated (DSTs) and check from there. One sush website is http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

Sure... requesting information from a pseudo-standardized source is one implementation... not one I'd be in favor of...  simply because of the tradeoffs... One that comes to mind is the dependency on a data source that could very easily go away. Another... data formats can be independently changed without notice.

I think that the basic time calculations are fairly straight forward - the time (without considering DST) is a predictable calculation from a known standard. DST is optionally applicable and when it is (applicable) it's basically plus or minus one hour from the current time depending on whether or not the date of the calculation falls inside or outside the DST window. The data storage requirements are relatively small...

You'd need:
   byte gmtOffHrs;                // range: 0 to 14 (hours)
   byte gmtOffMin;                // range: 0 or 30 (minutes)
   boolean plusMinus;          // 0 = +GMT, 1 = -GMT
   boolean useDST;              // 1 = DST,  0 = no DST
   unsigned long dstBegin;  // GMT timestamp when DST begins
   unsigned long dstEnd;     // GMT timestand when DST ends

I may have left something out... but I don't see any real advantage in requesting the data from an external source when the requirements for the calculation is so small...

I would disagree that the implementation would be difficult (I'm not saying it's trivial either). I also disagree that there is a "lot of user input" - I don't see it as any more than is required for a basic Windows installation... I also disagree that it would need to be re-entered every year... most DST windows have remained the same for years... but for the sake of argument let's assume that the dates do change... I don't see it as a show stopper.

The manual user input required (thus without using a reliable datasource) is input which most people even don't know about or input which needs to be looked up on external datasources anyways.

It is not size of the user input which is a problem, it is the constant changing (from year to year) and variations in the required input which is the problem.

If one searches the forum for deadlines of releases of software where the deadline is set at x hour GMT+-y, you'll see that extremely many people (even the ones who initially set the deadline) will get these variables wrong and mix things up (especially when DST is involved).

About external datasources, such sources are extremely reliable and will not change for many many years. In fact the lifespan of such sourcers is many multiples higher than the lifespan of such plugins.

There are source code examples on the internet that can easily calculate dates and times for different locations and they take into consideration Daylight Savings Time in those locations... here is one such example in VB:

http://vbnet.mvps.org/index.html?code/locale/gettimezonebias.htm

This code example along with others (on the same site) show that it isn't that difficult to accomplish what we've been discussing here. I also don't think that it's that difficult for someone to enter a few pieces of relevant time information. I didn't understand the analogy about software deadlines and software writers unless you were trying to imply that if someone that writes software can screw up a date then there is no hope for someone to get it right if they don't write software... Software writers are not exempt from screw ups... thats why there are bugs...

This has been "fun"... You are probably right... a suggestion like this probably isn't going to find itself in the codebase of MsgPlus... it's not as exciting as changing the color of the font for a contact or being able to configure Personalized Status... I would find it useful only because many people in my contact list are in different parts of the world... maybe I'll just write a plugin for myself... it might be a fun excersize...

The APIs used in question aren't that accurate and DST is specified year by year and can change year by year (and have changed in the past). There is no fixed rule to state when DST is applied and when not (despite that those APIs use such makeshift rules). It is revised and applied year after year by profound research institues and announced when needed. Said this, usually you can indeed "predict" (and thus that is all what these API's actually do) when it will be applied where, but you will never be certain unless you look this up on those websites or other sources instead of relying on questionable "predicting" APIs.

Also, this still does not rule out the specific location input that you need from the user. As DST is not applied everywhere the same in the same timezone! And that is not something which those APIs take into account. The country location is very mandatory in reference to DST, thus not only the GMT offset is important.

Thus, this makes the circle full again and you'll come back to what I suggested before: Since you need the specific country to make this calculation accurate, you might as well dish everything from those "guessing" APIs and strait away look up country specific information on a trusted, always updated and well known online source.

This rules out the very common user input mistakes regarding GMT offsets, DSTs, etc. If the user wants to get it right he needs to look these things up on those very same sites for starters anyways. So why not skip all the possible error making and only ask for the country and look things up yourself instead of relying on the user to do it.

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Originally posted by grinch
I also don't think that it's that difficult for someone to enter a few pieces of relevant time information. I didn't understand the analogy about software deadlines and software writers

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