Which religion am I? - Printable Version
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Which religion am I? by segosa on 09-14-2006 at 03:07 PM
Basically, I'm trying to figure out which religion I belong to.
First of all, the choices:
- Atheist - firm belief that there is no God
- Agnostic - belief that since God's existence can't be proved, religion is irrelevant to life
- Irreligious - lack of religion and/or hostility to religion
And here is how I think:
The claim that there must have been a God to create the universe, because nothing can exist without a creator, is highly flawed. If the universe needed a creator (i.e., God) then the creator needed a creator. If this creator didn't have a creator, but just "existed", then that raises the possibility of the universe already existing, in a "tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago". There no longer is a need for a creator.
I am also hostile towards religion. I hate religion. Maybe I am irreligious?
I don't know which one I belong to.
NOTE: I'm not trying to start a stupid religion debate. And if anyone dares to say or even think that I'm narrow-minded then all I have to say to you is this: provide me with one credible piece of evidence that there is a God, something that hasn't come out of someone else's mouth, and I'll open my mind. I will. Until then, no.
RE: Which religion am I? by Vilkku on 09-14-2006 at 03:13 PM
Do you belive there is any higher being... God, designer aliens, Earth Mother etc.? If you don't, you are a atheist, if you do you are irreligious. Can you be one of those and agnostic at the same time? No idea, but if you can, then that is a different story.
RE: Which religion am I? by absorbation on 09-14-2006 at 03:16 PM
Find something that makes you happy, as long as you are happy, believe what you want. The belief in God is keeping people alive (and also killing people), whatever makes you feel whole, you should do.
RE: Which religion am I? by markee on 09-14-2006 at 03:16 PM
I think irreligious encoumpases the other two so I would say you fit that one better.
I would like to know of a religion that hails beer for its magical ability of lowering inhibitions, does anyone know something like that? I know there's an anti-beer movement (Alcoholics Anonymous) but that doesn't help me. Mayb I belong to AAA (anti-alcoholics anonymous ![[Image: msn_tongue.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/msn_tongue.gif)
)
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 03:40 PM
I would say that I am irreligious (well now I've seen your definitions I would, because I have a lot of hostility toward religion 
Always thought of myself as atheist before). I don't neccessarily go by the lack of evidence FOR religion as you do, it's more the abundance of "evidence" (there - the quotation marks protect me against dodgy religious people being picky ) AGAINST religion.
Sure, there's no hard proof of either, but there's not one ounce of anything, apart from a book written thousands of years ago (yeah, not every religion, I know) to say that religion is a realistic option towards which to dedicate your actions and your life.
I am by no means narrow minded, and have listened to every argument imaginable for why my opinions are wrong, but the fact remains that it is a totally, totally bizarre thing. It's unlike anything else at all - it's like many years ago people believed in witchcraft, but then science has tought us that the thought of witches is absurd, and everybody has accepted that, because they can see that it is logical. The same should be true with religion, but because there's been a few books/documents written about the religion (bible, torah, etc etc), people seem to refuse to let go of the idea, even though science (if you wanna tell me "science is still just theories", go jump off your roof and tell me gravity is nothing but a theory) completely states that the idea of creationism and the existance of gods is ridiculous.
A friend of a friend at college had a badge that said "I believe in Jesus". Not wanting to start an argument about it, because I would have gone on for hours, I asked her what exactly it was that made her believe in Christianity. She told me that it was the thought that she would go to heaven when she died, and live on after death. I think this perfectly sums up the majority of believers of, mostly, Christianity. (I see Christianity of one of the weak religions. Whilst I still disagree with them, I at least have a form of respect for religions such as Islam, who clearly do not base their beliefs on the thought that when they die, they can go and see Grandpa). It's a lovely idea, yeah, but maybe that's why I don't follow Christianity (as I was raised in a very Christian environment and went to a Christian school, so don't say I don't have the facts, or haven't given religion a chance ) - because I quite prefer the idea of dying, then rotting, then nothing. The idea of eternal life doesn't sound all that appealing to me, personally. Some people evidently need this reassurance though, hence the phrase I used to have in my sig - "Christianity is a crutch for the weak minded" *.
I could say more, but you're probably getting bored of me. Congratulations if you bothered reading all of this
And segosa, in reponse to your question, I would say you are irreligious
* - I removed it when I got a PM stating "Christianity is NOT a crutch for the weak minded". Way to argue your case 
(I removed it so I wasn't subjected to more ridiculousness like this )
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 03:40 PM
I feel that there is no God, however I find it hard to believe that there is nothing after life. As we cannot imagine nothing, we can't just disappear, if you think about "nothingness" you're actually thinking about something.
However, my official religion is Catholic.
RE: Which religion am I? by Stigmata on 09-14-2006 at 03:49 PM
I'm fully fledged Catholic..
(Except i dont go to church much...)
but i find the idea of god to be a safety blanket for people who are too narrow minded to understand that some questions dont have answers.
RE: Which religion am I? by Lourix on 09-14-2006 at 04:02 PM
Surely if you believe in no God then you do not belong to any religion.
RE: Which religion am I? by Stigmata on 09-14-2006 at 04:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lourix
Surely if you believe in no God then you do not belong to any religion.
I cannot change the first 12 years of my life
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stigmata
I cannot change the first 12 years of my life
Sure you can. I've been baptised, gone to the world's most horribly Christian primary school, and been brought up around many many Christians, and I hate religion more than anyone
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 04:54 PM
As you described, you'd have the stamp "Irreligious"
Me, I'm a christian, been baptised 'bout a year and 2 months
now. It was my own choice (no child baptism)
I've been raised as christian, and got in a dip a few years ago, I never expierenced God personally. I was beginning to doubt if he existed. So I asked Him to proof he exists...
The first thing I read in the Bible was Job 40:25-41:26, it describes a crocodile. So I asked God, if he existed I would see at least 3 crocodiles within the next week...
The week lasted, and nothing happened, I was getting a bit dissapointed...
Until at the end of the week I saw the movie about Moses, which had a crocodile in it, a while later in the movie I saw another 2
It was a christian movie, with 3 crocodiles... There was my prove
At that point I decided to get baptised.
In the week after that I saw alot more crocodiles. Even the hype about Schnappi (not known...) started that week. Never has a clip about a cartoon crocodile been so popular (Believe it was at the top of the charts for a while too)
For so far my 'little' Bio.
I can not believe there is no God...
How did we get here? Evolution...
Not likely. There's a very small chance every condition neede for us to live is met
And how do we evolve? If more than a dozen human DNA gens gets changed the person dies... the step from ape to human is about 5% which are thousands of gens
Survival of the fittest? what good is a reptile with half wings, half arms? he can't fly and he has a disadvantage in hunting
But I think you're indeed Irreligious (getting back on topic)
And I think people too easily say: "prove first, believe later"
Try asking God for proof, you have nothing to lose, do you?
Got questions? PM me. Flame me? PM me too, I don't mind
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 05:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
For so far my 'little' Bio.
I can not believe there is no God...
How did we get here? Evolution...
Not likely. There's a very small chance every condition neede for us to live is met
And how do we evolve? If more than a dozen human DNA gens gets changed the person dies... the step from ape to human is about 5% which are thousands of gens
Survival of the fittest? what good is a reptile with half wings, half arms? he can't fly and he has a disadvantage in hunting
What about dinosaurs? That would mean that we were around when dinosaurs were "created" by God, it's not right.
Evolution is the most approved theory of how we got here, thinking about it... It's the only one that makes sense.
What good is a reptile with half wings, half arms? Not a lot really, which you kind of answered yourself "survival of the fittest", they aren't here anymore, yet there is proof that they were here. The reason they're not here is because they died out, they didn't manage to survive only the fittest of the animals survived, ones that could scrape a living. The leaders of these are actually apes, yes that's the same league as humans. We've simply evolved better, have better brains etc.
I saw God once, in Jesus Christ Superstar, that was all I needed as proof that... God exists.
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 05:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
The first thing I read in the Bible was Job 40:25-41:26, it describes a crocodile. So I asked God, if he existed I would see at least 3 crocodiles within the next week...
The week lasted, and nothing happened, I was getting a bit dissapointed...
Until at the end of the week I saw the movie about Moses, which had a crocodile in it, a while later in the movie I saw another 2
It was a christian movie, with 3 crocodiles... There was my prove
At that point I decided to get baptised.
In the week after that I saw alot more crocodiles. Even the hype about Schnappi (not known...) started that week. Never has a clip about a cartoon crocodile been so popular (Believe it was at the top of the charts for a while too)
don't happen to live in a particularly crocodile-infested area by any chance?
..... ... .
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 05:08 PM
Not at all... I live in the netherlands far from any crocodile (only in the zoo, and I don't get there often)
@Traxor, writing a reply, please hold...
quote:Yeah, God created dinosaurs... People in Africa report sightings of a great dinosaur living in a swamp. People, I believe somewhere near India, report sightings of a ptearodactyl (however you spell it) Also, dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible, in the book of Job 2 dinosaurs a described, named in the bible as Leviathan and Behemoth, and according to their description most likely a kronosaurus and a brachiosaurus
Originally posted by traxor
What about dinosaurs? That would mean that we were around when dinosaurs were "created" by God, it's not right.
Evolution is the most approved theory of how we got here, thinking about it... It's the only one that makes sense.
What good is a reptile with half wings, half arms? Not a lot really, which you kind of answered yourself "survival of the fittest", they aren't here anymore, yet there is proof that they were here. The reason they're not here is because they died out, they didn't manage to survive only the fittest of the animals survived, ones that could scrape a living. The leaders of these are actually apes, yes that's the same league as humans. We've simply evolved better, have better brains etc.
For more information about evolution and the bible search on google vid for Kent Hovind, or
Sorry it took a while, but I had to search things, people talking, ....etc
RE: Which religion am I? by Fanta on 09-14-2006 at 05:31 PM
When I read "religious" experiences like that, I'm always strongly reminded of the Jehova's whitness people I send from my door each year. (what's their right to pester me unasked?!)
I just like to point out, that what one person sees as proof that God exists, the other finds a huge coincidence.
In the example withthe crocodiles, I see a lot of holes and weaknesses. It's still a belief that you have. It's not a fact. Don't treat it as such.
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 05:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
Yeah, God created dinosaurs... People in Africa report sightings of a great dinosaur living in a swamp. People, I believe somewhere near India, report sightings of a ptearodactyl (however you spell it) Also, dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible, in the book of Job 2 dinosaurs a described, named in the bible as Leviathan and Behemoth, and according to their description most likely a kronosaurus and a brachiosaurus
For more information about evolution and the bible search on google vid for Kent Hovind, orclick hereCouldn't find it, I owe you this one (almost all of his vids) It does take a lot of time to watch those, as every vid is about an hour
Sorry it took a while, but I had to search things, people talking, ....etc
Sightings? Surely if there's a massive dinosaur, then there would be more coverage on it, somebody would've taken at least one picture of it, and what are the chances are there only being one, there aren't any, because they don't exist. The same with a pterodactyl, nobody would be able to even miss one of those, they're flying creatures, that i'm pretty sure flew during the day-time! They'd be pretty easy to see! "Job 2" isn't a book, Job is a book, 2 is a chapter in that book. I have a bible in the bookshelf and it says nothing about Leviathan or Behemoth.
I'm not going to bother watching those videos, it's probably just a man shouting at the screen as to why God exists and that why scientists are all dickheads.
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 05:50 PM
The sightings where of people whom came from a jungle area, I'm not really sure about that though... and they said the saw more than one...
Also think about the loch ness monster, I don't think someone just made that up for fun... I do believe people eploit them after one person sighted it...
I said "in the book of Job 2 dinosaurs are described" it's about two dino's not the second chapter of Job...
Your bible doesn't say anything about behemoth or leviathan, cause those names are translated as hippopotamus and crocodile, its in Job 40-41 (maybe end of 39 too)
This translation is incorrect, as it says in the bible "It has a tail like a cedar tree". ever saw a hippo with a tail like that?
"He finds his food in the mountains" ever saw a hippo up there?
And it describes the "crocodile" as having a breath of fire, and smoke coming out of his nostrills..
Really sounds like those dragon legends, from medieval times.. I believe they existed then too...
As for the vids...
He is not at all shouting at the screen about the scientists...
He was a scientist himself, he thinks there's nothing wrong with science, but he also thinks there's no evidence for evolution
Please judge after you've watched the video's or don't judge at all
-edit-
quote:Jehova's whitnesses are not exactly christians, they believe you get in heaven when you do good deeds, for example bringing the "good news" to people...
Originally posted by Fanta
When I read "religious" experiences like that, I'm always strongly reminded of the Jehova's whitness people I send from my door each year. (what's their right to pester me unasked?!)
I just like to point out, that what one person sees as proof that God exists, the other finds a huge coincidence.
In the example withthe crocodiles, I see a lot of holes and weaknesses. It's still a belief that you have. It's not a fact. Don't treat it as such
As a christian we do not believe in good deeds for heaven, we believe Jesus is our way to heaven
I never said it was a fact, it was just my proof to believe
-edit2- I also found the site: Here
Especialy the seminars are informative
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 05:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
but he also thinks there's no evidence for evolution
what?! that's like saying there's no evidence for... bread!
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 06:03 PM
quote:Wtf, the bible != medieval. If you believe in dragons, you're either from Finland or mental.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Your bible doesn't say anything about behemoth or leviathan, cause those names are translated as hippopotamus and crocodile, its in Job 40-41 (maybe end of 39 too)
This translation is incorrect, as it says in the bible "It has a tail like a cedar tree". ever saw a hippo with a tail like that?
"He finds his food in the mountains" ever saw a hippo up there?
And it describes the "crocodile" as having a breath of fire, and smoke coming out of his nostrills..
Really sounds like those dragon legends, from medieval times.. I believe they existed then too...
Some people are extremists about their faith, they look at it like "God send me some water if you're real!" Then you see a Tescos van drive past with some Malvern Springwater on it...
I think there's more than enough proof that evolution is right.
RE: Which religion am I? by Menthix on 09-14-2006 at 06:09 PM
quote:No, but I haven't ever seen a talking snake either. Yet Adam and Eva were convinced to eat forbidden fruit by a snake, weren't they?
Originally posted by Shondoit
it says in the bible "It has a tail like a cedar tree". ever saw a hippo with a tail like that?
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 06:14 PM
It also states the punishment for the snake...
It couldn't walk anymore, perhaps also not talk\
And ever heard of babylon? perhaps the animals got lost in translation too (that's my view on it...)
To get back to Traxor,
I didn't say the bible is medieval...
I only said, it describes a creature similiar too the dragons from medieval ages
I don't believe the people from the middle ages made it up, and made it a 500 year lasting hoax, but that's my opinion
As for the "springwater" thingy...
I asked God to show me crocodiles, it would be a coincidence if I saw a crocodile, but I don't believe in coincidenc if I saw multiple on one day, and on the next day... and the next week a nationwide hype, and even in surrounding countries, about a crocodile. And I saw many more...
The chance of that would be very small
And if you take into account almost the only crocodile I get to see around "by chance" is on an animal network, the chance is almost nill
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 06:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
I asked God to show me crocodiles, it would be a coincidence if I saw a crocodile, but I don't believe in coincidenc if I saw multiple on one day, and on the next day... and the next week a nationwide hype, and even in surrounding countries, about a crocodile. And I saw many more...
Yeah, I had a weird thing like that. I asked God to show me a red car, and then everywhere I look, there is red cars! I saw dozens today! There was even a red car on the news.
There is a point I'm making there, it's not just sarcasm
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 06:29 PM
The chance of seeing a red car is 1 in 10 maybe 1 in 25 tops, and how many cars do you see in a day? couple of hundred...
So by then you'd have seen 4 red cars...
The only crocodiles I see is on an animal network, which I almost never look...
The chance of seeing a crocodile on there is 1 in 25 I think IF you watch
I don't watch so the chance would drop to about 1 to 2500 (accidantly zapping trough, we have it at the end of our channels, so little chance, I always stay with the first and middle channels of our TV), within a week I would have seen 0,0028 crocodile... that's a little less than three
But I never saw a crocodile on that channel...
I saw it on a different channel, which has almost no chance of bumping into a crocodile...
And also the chance of a crocodile in the music top 40? It NEVER happened before in the netherlands (at least when I was alive)
So in total, it's not just because I pay more attention to it, or I just have alot of chance to see a croc...
RE: Which religion am I? by ayjay on 09-14-2006 at 06:34 PM
Well all I can say is that it's a good job I don't ask God to show me a giraffe, then someone asks him to show a hippo, then someone else a rhino, then an elephant, then a cow, then a snake....... you see where this is going?
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 06:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
The chance of seeing a red car is 1 in 10 maybe 1 in 25 tops, and how many cars do you see in a day? couple of hundred...
So by then you'd have seen 4 red cars...
The only crocodiles I see is on an animal network, which I almost never look...
The chance of seeing a crocodile on there is 1 in 25 I think IF you watch
I don't watch so the chance would drop to about 1 to 2500 (accidantly zapping trough, we have it at the end of our channels, so little chance, I always stay with the first and middle channels of our TV), within a week I would have seen 0,0028 crocodile... that's a little less than three
But I never saw a crocodile on that channel...
I saw it on a different channel, which has almost no chance of bumping into a crocodile...
And also the chance of a crocodile in the music top 40? It NEVER happened before in the netherlands (at least when I was alive)
So in total, it's not just because I pay more attention to it, or I just have alot of chance to see a croc...
Your statistics are estimations, they're not even the right ones! What are you talking about... EVEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?!
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
I didn't say the bible is medieval...
I only said, it describes a creature similiar too the dragons from medieval ages
I don't believe the people from the middle ages made it up, and made it a 500 year lasting hoax, but that's my opinion
Urr, zombies are real then? Zombies were invented, werewolves, vampires! Yet they're not real, they're fictional just like dragons.
Dragons aren't "hoaxes" they're myths.
The Bible isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's just got meanings, ways to live. For instance, the fact that adam and eve were made etc. didn't mean literally that they were created, it all has moral meanings, not literal meanings.
Crocodiles are some of the most common creatures to be in films to be honest, as they're both prehistoric AND terrifying.
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 06:43 PM
Yes, the're estimations?
so? I just point out that it's not coincidence...
Zombies, werewolves, vampires, ...etc were all thought up in later years, when people started to get concious about fiction
I don't say dragons are real, I just find it interresting that the story in the Bible describes what seems to be a dragon...
Not taking the bible seriously is your opininion... I believe the Bible is true, and others with me. Alot of people don't. It's just a matter of opinion
-edit- As animal in a film, crocodile are common creatures, yes. (after the dog, and I think the horse is more common too, but that aside)
Animals are a rarity in films, at least crocodiles. nowadays it's all sci-fi (almost no animals), fantasy (fantasy animals), drama (only people) and action (most common a dog, and sometimes a crocodile)
The movie I saw wasn't an action movie, but an animated movie, somewhat drama
RE: Which religion am I? by saralk on 09-14-2006 at 06:57 PM
I don't beleive in religion for one simple fundamental rule.
Religion started a long time ago, and its primary function was to solve the question of "why are we here?" and so people explained this by saying we are here on the whim of a much more powerful creator, someone so amazing that our minds can't even understand.
So now, we are just faced with an even bigger problem, how does he exist?
Another thing that annoys me, is that religions have to be old, if a new religion is created, its called a cult? Even though these modern religions probably are more relevant to current issues than older ones. People work on Sundays even though the bible forbids it, and its unrealistic to expect someone not to work on Sundays.
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 07:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by saralk
I don't beleive in religion for one simple fundamental rule.
Religion started a long time ago, and its primary function was to solve the question of "why are we here?" and so people explained this by saying we are here on the whim of a much more powerful creator, someone so amazing that our minds can't even understand.
So now, we are just faced with an even bigger problem, how does he exist?
Another thing that annoys me, is that religions have to be old, if a new religion is created, its called a cult? Even though these modern religions probably are more relevant to current issues than older ones. People work on Sundays even though the bible forbids it, and its unrealistic to expect someone not to work on Sundays.
You said it in 2 paragraphs, exactly my beliefs.
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
Yes, the're estimations?
so? I just point out that it's not coincidence...
Zombies, werewolves, vampires, ...etc were all thought up in later years, when people started to get concious about fiction
I don't say dragons are real, I just find it interresting that the story in the Bible describes what seems to be a dragon...
Not taking the bible seriously is your opininion... I believe the Bible is true, and others with me. Alot of people don't. It's just a matter of opinion
-edit- As animal in a film, crocodile are common creatures, yes. (after the dog, and I think the horse is more common too, but that aside)
Animals are a rarity in films, at least crocodiles. nowadays it's all sci-fi (almost no animals), fantasy (fantasy animals), drama (only people) and action (most common a dog, and sometimes a crocodile)
The movie I saw wasn't an action movie, but an animated movie, somewhat drama
So you're saying people in the past were ready to believe anything really?
Therefore the people who wrote the bible were ready to BELIEVE anything they though was TRUE, even if it was completely irrational and couldn't be true in let's say... 2000 years?
You just owned yourself I do believe.
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 07:10 PM
A religion is about believing isn't it?
And how is it irrational and not true in 2000 years?
I haven't owned myself in any way... in my opinion
RE: Which religion am I? by haydos on 09-14-2006 at 07:13 PM
quote:To be honest, that doesn't make it right.
Originally posted by Shondoit
A religion is about believing isn't it?
I feel that the main issue with the crocodile story isn't about the chances of you seeing 3 crocs, it's more that you based your entire religion upon one coincidence.
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 07:17 PM
I don't believe it's a coincidence...
And that's not the only thing that happened...
And I watched those vids I posted earlier, and creation makes more sense to me than evolution
RE: Which religion am I? by haydos on 09-14-2006 at 07:23 PM
If you change the words "one coincidence" to chance in my above post it still gives the same meaning. You're basing a lot on one small thing.
RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 07:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
I don't believe it's a coincidence...
And that's not the only thing that happened...
And I watched those vids I posted earlier, and creation makes more sense to me than evolution
That's the worst sentence I've ever heard? How can in make more sense to you?! Somebody saying... hey, just taking ONE of your ribs, a bit of mud... "Wait a second, you want a rib? What are you playing at?" Making a woman of course... because that's what we need! "Ah, I wondered what that long thing dangling between my legs was for!" No No No No! That's not there for that at all, you're not gonna know what it's for either, but please yeah... stay away from that tree! "Why?" because I put it there, it's mine! "Urr, why put it there then?"
okay, got carried away.
RE: Which religion am I? by DarkMe on 09-14-2006 at 07:28 PM
quote:Totally indeed
Originally posted by saralk
I don't beleive in religion for one simple fundamental rule.
Religion started a long time ago, and its primary function was to solve the question of "why are we here?" and so people explained this by saying we are here on the whim of a much more powerful creator, someone so amazing that our minds can't even understand.
So now, we are just faced with an even bigger problem, how does he exist?
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 07:33 PM
@Traxor, Did you know the only bone in the body that regrows, is the lower rib? Why is that... another coincidence ofcourse.
why make a tree in the middle of the paradise if God knew they would gonna eat from it anyway? to give them a choice
Would you like your son to have no choice but follow everything you say. You want to give him liberty, to some extent
@Haydn, I'm a logical man, I think before I act.
I'm better at the logical classes at school... etc
It's more logical for me to believe in God than in the evolution...
I think it's more logical to say a God created it all, then some big bang out off nothing created a lot of matter, and made us in a billion years...
RE: Which religion am I? by NiteMare on 09-14-2006 at 07:34 PM
![[Image: crisp.jpg]](http://liberalserving.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/crisp.jpg)
<--Proof!!!
RE: Which religion am I? by paperless on 09-14-2006 at 07:53 PM
Ive been baptised but i dont really give a penny about religion..im not against it everyone believes in what they want..
RE: RE: Which religion am I? by user27089 on 09-14-2006 at 08:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
@Traxor, Did you know the only bone in the body that regrows, is the lower rib? Why is that... another coincidence ofcourse.
why make a tree in the middle of the paradise if God knew they would gonna eat from it anyway? to give them a choice
Would you like your son to have no choice but follow everything you say. You want to give him liberty, to some extent
@Haydn, I'm a logical man, I think before I act.
I'm better at the logical classes at school... etc
It's more logical for me to believe in God than in the evolution...
I think it's more logical to say a God created it all, then some big bang out off nothing created a lot of matter, and made us in a billion years...
That's wrong, a lot of bones grow back. Well no it's not coincidence, once again it's evolution. The rib-cage protects the vital-organs, even the lowest rib is protecting something.
So if a rib-bone breaks, then it needs to grow back otherwise our vital organs would be under severe risk.
Why give somebody a choice of good or evil, why not completely eradicate evil and make a world live in harmony, instead of the world we live in today, with terrorism, genocide etc.
I want my son or daughter to believe in what they want, I don't want them to hate all religions, I just want them to be rational in what they say, think and do. If they want to be catholic, they can be that if they want, but I'd hope they're not catholic, as with most people if they have the choice they wouldn't have any religion! That's why I think it's wrong to baptise children at such an early age, they have no choice in the matter whatsoever.
So what you're saying what is logical, is the fact that an "entity" who has always been there (always, wait a second... he had to have came from somewhere hasn't he? Just at one point there and another not there, that doesn't make sense) to have created everything including man... That dinosaurs etc. never did exist (as we know for a fact they never lived when humans existed) and that humans came first, nothing else...
It's a hell of a lot more logical to believe in a theory of evolution rather than a theory of creation. Considering the evidence we have that evolution has existed and still does exist, fossils, yet evolving species etc. We're evolving all the time, no matter what... From generation to generation we're evolving, both mentally and physically... We're becoming cleverer and we're also adapting to the ever-changing environment.
Disagree with me all you want, but religion is simply a belief, it is not fact. There is no proof that there was a God, or that the creation story was real, apart from a book wrote 8000 years ago (we know that the world is billions of years old) by some Jewish people. How did somebody 8000 years ago know what happened all of those billions of years ago? They couldn't, simply because stories cannot be passed on that long without modification.
It's the same issue with the new testaments, the gospels were not actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... They were written in around 400-500AC by people who had been told the stories, by people who'd actually learnt how to write. Through the years that story has changed and changed simply because somebody had been told the story and added something to it, the person then told another the story exagerrating it even more so and so on and so forth. Imagine the constant exagerration from person to person over A BILLION YEARS. Nobody would even be able to remember that even if we were created, which we weren't.
What you're saying is completely ludacris, and is an argument that I'd expect somebody from the Vatican to say to me, yet I've always got a valid argument to that, with proof that there was life BEFORE we existed, and that it couldn't have been created by God... We couldn't have been created by God at least, as we'd all be dead right now, just as the same fat the dinosaurs had before mother nature sorted herself out again.
RE: Which religion am I? by Voldemort on 09-14-2006 at 09:35 PM
you know what i think?
the bible is a big metaphor book, god made everything evolve and come out as it did.
RE: Which religion am I? by fluffy_lobster on 09-14-2006 at 09:35 PM
Erm, can I ask why creation is being treated as an opposing theory to evolution? Genesis is hardly specific about how God made the world; for starters, when the earth was made, that's all it says - it was made. Just because it doesn't say specifically "and beneath the earth were fossils and skeletons of dinosaurs and neanderthals containing ancient levels of carbon-14 isotopes and he saw that it was good" doesn't mean that's not how it is. That's what I suspect myself, though anyone who thinks they have proved how the world works is very very much mistaken.
Traxor, I can't even pretend to know enough about the Bible's history to be an authority, but at least the latter part of the new testament, Paul's letters to various churches and people were written by Paul a few years after Jesus' death, before Herod died, and there are an abundance of manuscripts from around the time to back up the existence of the letters. Incidentally, there are more historical records, both religious and from authorities such as the Roman empire, of Jesus' life than any other historical figure.
RE: RE: RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 09:46 PM
quote:Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Originally posted by traxor
That's wrong, a lot of bones grow back. Well no it's not coincidence, once again it's evolution. The rib-cage protects the vital-organs, even the lowest rib is protecting something.
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?
quote:So we would not be like drones. A father doesn't want his son to follow him like a drone, but wan't him to give freedom... (you seperated my statement in two parts)
Originally posted by traxor
Why give somebody a choice of good or evil, why not completely eradicate evil and make a world live in harmony, instead of the world we live in today, with terrorism, genocide etc.
quote:I agree with you on that, it's one of the points I don't like about catholics (along with the maria worshipping) Babies don't have a choice whatsoever... I'm not going to baptise my children as babies. My parents didn't either. It was my own desicion
Originally posted by traxor
I want my son or daughter to believe in what they want, I don't want them to hate all religions, I just want them to be rational in what they say, think and do. If they want to be catholic, they can be that if they want, but I'd hope they're not catholic, as with most people if they have the choice they wouldn't have any religion! That's why I think it's wrong to baptise children at such an early age, they have no choice in the matter whatsoever.
quote:Do you understand eternity? no beginning, no end? I don't quite get it too... but who says God had to come from somewhere? (don't quote me on this one, I don't understand eternity either)
Originally posted by traxor
(...) an "entity" who has always been (always, wait a second... he had to have came from somewhere hasn't he? Just at one point there and another not there, that doesn't make sense)
quote:Why didn't dinosaurs live with humans? what facts? The geological column? Carbon dating? both proven to be wrong
Originally posted by traxor
So what you're saying what is logical, is the fact that an "entity" who has always been there to have created everything including man... That dinosaurs etc. never did exist (as we know for a fact they never lived when humans existed) and that humans came first, nothing else...
The geological column is not the same at every point, At some places in the world the're missing some layers, meaning the era wouldn't have existed at that place...
Carbon dating is even more wrong, it is only accurate for less than 14.000 years, and if the earth's CO2 levels remained constant troughout that time. Tests showed out that a 25 year old carcass whas misdated at few thousand years. The skin of a mamoth was dated a few thousand years older/younger than it's bones...
It's all described in the videos (especialy Seminar 4)
If you have the time, please do...
quote:Fossils are not prove of evolution, you can not say that fossil evolved into another species... You weren't there, you don't know if it had any children...
Originally posted by traxor
It's a hell of a lot more logical to believe in a theory of evolution rather than a theory of creation. Considering the evidence we have that evolution has existed and still does exist, fossils, yet evolving species etc. We're evolving all the time, no matter what... From generation to generation we're evolving, both mentally and physically... We're becoming cleverer and we're also adapting to the ever-changing environment.
You have evolution and evolution, many people say animals are evolving, so evolution is true.
But the're different kinds of evolution, I'll use two of them, macro and micro evolution. Macro evolution is from one specie of animal, to another specie of animal. Micro evolution is from kind of animal to another kind of animal, within the same species. the latter one is true, no doubt... You have thousands different kinds of dogs, and all those dogs adapt to their surroundings. I agree
But then many people say that people evolved from monkeys. Monkeys and humans are totally different species and cannot bread which eachother (that would be another argument against evolution, how would the new evoluted specie breed?)
quote:I already said it before, Religion is a belief, I don't disagree with you on that. How do you know the earth is billions of years old? carbon dating? Several arguments that the earth can not be billions of years old (also in the vids)
Originally posted by traxor
Disagree with me all you want, but religion is simply a belief, it is not fact. There is no proof that there was a God, or that the creation story was real, apart from a book wrote 8000 years ago (we know that the world is billions of years old) by some Jewish people. How did somebody 8000 years ago know what happened all of those billions of years ago? They couldn't, simply because stories cannot be passed on that long without modification.
quote:Where you there? wasn't it rewritten? copied... They knew how to write even before Jesus' birth...
Originally posted by traxor
It's the same issue with the new testaments, the gospels were not actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... They were written in around 400-500AC by people who had been told the stories, by people who'd actually learnt how to write. Through the years that story has changed and changed simply because somebody had been told the story and added something to it, the person then told another the story exagerrating it even more so and so on and so forth. Imagine the constant exagerration from person to person over A BILLION YEARS. Nobody would even be able to remember that even if we were created, which we weren't.
"which we weren't", that's open for discussion, it's not a fact...
quote:Please give me the proof that life existed BEFORE us, as you say...
Originally posted by traxor
What you're saying is completely ludacris, and is an argument that I'd expect somebody from the Vatican to say to me, yet I've always got a valid argument to that, with proof that there was life BEFORE we existed, and that it couldn't have been created by God... We couldn't have been created by God at least, as we'd all be dead right now, just as the same fat the dinosaurs had before mother nature sorted herself out again.
-edit- fluffy_lobster is a super n00b
(saw this when I posted..
weird 
)RE: Which religion am I? by prashker on 09-14-2006 at 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
btw, how do you add your attachment as an image in the post?
[img][attachment][/img]
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-14-2006 at 10:21 PM
Okay, thx
Thought it was [img]attachment[/img] but it wasn't working. needed the brackets...
RE: Which religion am I? by segosa on 09-15-2006 at 09:08 AM
Shondoit: you claim the universe has a creator, right? Who created this creator? I assume your response to that will be that the creator was always there? Well in that case, why do we need a creator?
If you are allowed to come to the conclusion that this creator always existed, then suddenly the need for there to be a creator in order for this universe to come to existence becomes irrelevant. After all, if God could just "always be there", who's to say the universe couldn't "always be there" in its "tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago" (source).
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-15-2006 at 09:40 AM
The Creator was always there...
Why do we need a creator? That's the same as asking why does a watch need a creator? If the creator didn't make the watch, it would not exist. this argument is not flawless, because you could say that the universe always existed, without a creator (but what about the Second law of thermodynamics? If it existed billions of years? all energy would be spread throughout the universe, instead of clutter together...)
When I read that Wiki article, the first thing I notice is: "the Big Bang is the scientific theory (...)"
A theory, not a fact...
I don't really have the time now, as I'm quite busy with school 'n stuff. But if I have the time, I'll post some arguments that are covered in the videos...
(perhaps one or two at a time...)
RE: Which religion am I? by Underlord on 09-15-2006 at 11:23 AM
I consider myself agnostic and irreligious.
quote:Your argument doesn't cover the fact that the watch maker was created by his parents.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Why do we need a creator? That's the same as asking why does a watch need a creator? If the creator didn't make the watch, it would not exist.
quote:No one is disagreeing with you there.
Originally posted by Shondoit
When I read that Wiki article, the first thing I notice is: "the Big Bang is the scientific theory (...)"
A theory, not a fact...
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-15-2006 at 11:26 AM
No it does not...
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.
RE: Which religion am I? by haydos on 09-15-2006 at 01:32 PM
quote:Then why use the analogy?
Originally posted by Shondoit
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.
Going back to a previous post...
quote:You're using this as an argument to say Evolution is wrong yet God is right. It's a rib growing back... so what? That doesn't make any religious opinion right nor wrong.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?
RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-15-2006 at 01:57 PM
quote:Because almost everything has a creator... becuase you don't know him doesn't mean he doesn't exist...
Originally posted by haydn
quote:Then why use the analogy?
Originally posted by Shondoit
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.
quote:I didn't say it was proof for religion. I only state that it's interresting only the lowest ribs grow back, the one God created Eve from, so it says in the Bible
Originally posted by haydn
Going back to a previous post...
quote:You're using this as an argument to say Evolution is wrong yet God is right. It's a rib growing back... so what? That doesn't make any religious opinion right nor wrong.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?
Now, you may believe it or not. But fact is that they regrow, up to you to decide why only those regrow
RE: Which religion am I? by andrewdodd13 on 09-15-2006 at 02:19 PM
I usually like taking part in these discussions, unfortunatly I missed this post (oops)...
I'm definetly Athiest and some other stuff that I really cant be bothered looking up to find out what.
The first thing you have to understand is what the difference between science and religion are:
- Religion is making up stories and then looking for evidence
- Science is collecting evidence and piecing stories together to fit the evidence.
There is a clear difference here, especially in the fact that religions usually shape the evidence to their needs.
A main point that seems to be in everyones arguments is "What created the creator (or big-bang, etc)?". Well, being human, it's fairly complicated for us to understand infinity. The main way I stop myself from getting confused is like this:
Take a piece of graph paper, and plot the graph y = x^2 + 1. Where does it cross the x axis? No where. No matter how far on you go, either tending to positive or negative infinity, the graph will never touch or end up below the x axis.
It's the same for the point before the beginning. Whatever "created" (and I use the term loosely) us existed forever. Now, if you believe in the big bang it's easy enough to say "Well, due to the laws of relativity time probably didn't actually exist until after the start of the big bang" which confuses the issue even further, but meh. It actually makes sense to me, in a way.
And as for evolution, evolution is waaay more logical than "omfg we appeared because someone made us!".
My prime example is the evolution of small bacteria into plant and animal life. Most people say, "well how the hell could I have evolved from a plant?". The answer is fairly simple.
In the beginning you have two types of cell: Plant Cells and Bacterial Cells. Plant Cells as most people know, take in CO2 and produce Oxygen. Bacterial Cells (at the time) simply used Glucose and ATP <-> ADP + Pi as a form of energy (glycolysis). This produced minor amounts of CO2 (for the plants). Suddenly, once there was enough Oxygen available, we begin to see the evolution of aerobic respiration, which produces 19 times more energy than glycolysis alone, (via Krebs Cycle and the Cytochrome System), and the beginning of life as we know it begins.
I see no mention of this in the holy book of any religion, but you'll see it in lots of science textbooks. 
PS. The thing about the lower rib is because the lower rib directly protects the diaphragm, which if damaged is pretty damned bad. (You won't be able to breathe) It's also much more sensitive than the other organs, the heart and lungs could survive minor forces on them, the diaphragm wouldn't be so lucky.
RE: RE: Which religion am I? by segosa on 09-15-2006 at 02:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
quote:Because almost everything has a creator... becuase you don't know him doesn't mean he doesn't exist...
Originally posted by haydn
quote:Then why use the analogy?
Originally posted by Shondoit
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.
Why do you get to decide what does and what doesn't? So you're allowed to claim that the universe couldn't exist without a creator, but this creator could exist without being created? That's completely absurd. It contradicts everything.
It's very simple:
If God can exist without a creator, then the universe could also exist without a creator, taking away the necessity of there being a God.
RE: RE: Which religion am I? by Shondoit on 09-15-2006 at 02:55 PM
quote:then welcome
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
I usually like taking part in these discussions, unfortunatly I missed this post (oops)...
quote:Religion is not finding evidence to match the stories, religion is faith. You have to believe, because there are no evidences. That's up to you to decide if you believe it or not...
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
The first thing you have to understand is what the difference between science and religion are:
- Religion is making up stories and then looking for evidence
- Science is collecting evidence and piecing stories together to fit the evidence.
quote:Nice metaphor
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
A main point that seems to be in everyones arguments is "What created the creator (or big-bang, etc)?". Well, being human, it's fairly complicated for us to understand infinity. The main way I stop myself from getting confused is like this:
Take a piece of graph paper, and plot the graph y = x^2 + 1. Where does it cross the x axis? No where. No matter how far on you go, either tending to positive or negative infinity, the graph will never touch or end up below the x axis.
this can also be seen as God being infinitequote:How did the very first bacteria survived? It needed oxygen from somewhere? Where did it come from? How did the bacteria get so complex? You need alot of parameters to be just right for a bacteria to transform O2 and glucose to CO2 and water, and for the Plant cells the other way around...
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
My prime example is the evolution of small bacteria into plant and animal life. Most people say, "well how the hell could I have evolved from a plant?". The answer is fairly simple.
In the beginning you have two types of cell: Plant Cells and Bacterial Cells. Plant Cells as most people know, take in CO2 and produce Oxygen. Bacterial Cells (at the time) simply used Glucose and ATP <-> ADP + Pi as a form of energy (glycolysis). This produced minor amounts of CO2 (for the plants). Suddenly, once there was enough Oxygen available, we begin to see the evolution of aerobic respiration, which produces 19 times more energy than glycolysis alone, (via Krebs Cycle and the Cytochrome System), and the beginning of life as we know it begins.
quote:Perhaps because it is not true... Did you see any prove of it being possible? I cannot believe we evolved from two ver complex things that need eachother to survive. If evolution was true, it would have taken at least a couple of thousand years to create such bacteria, after which the oxygen, that never existed, would have been used... And how would all those molecules that a bacteria exists of come together? chance?
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
I see no mention of this in the holy book of any religion, but you'll see it in lots of science textbooks.
@Segosa
I do not claim the universe can't exist without a creator... I only infer it.
As for the creator-universe thing, A creator usualy has intelect, a creations doesn't have anything, no intellect no conciousness. even the universe
You can't say "if God exists forever, than the universe can too", You can't compare those two
RE: Which religion am I? by andrewdodd13 on 09-15-2006 at 03:54 PM
quote:
Religion is not finding evidence to match the stories, religion is faith. You have to believe, because there are no evidences. That's up to you to decide if you believe it or not...
Sorry, but to me, that's crazy talk. Believing something that you have no proof that it exists is irrational.
quote:I think you misread what I wrote. The first cells did not require oxygen to be present to break down glucose. All they done was convert it into two molecules of pyruvic acid with a net gain of ATP being created from ADP + Pi.
How did the very first bacteria survived? It needed oxygen from somewhere? Where did it come from? How did the bacteria get so complex? You need alot of parameters to be just right for a bacteria to transform O2 and glucose to CO2 and water, and for the Plant cells the other way around...
Besides that, you missed my point about the bible never mentioning anything about single-celled amoeba and the likes, simply because they'd never heard of such things.
quote:If this is true, then human beings aren't conscious, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.
As for the creator-universe thing, A creator usualy has intelect, a creations doesn't have anything, no intellect no conciousness. even the universe
On a side note, I partially agree that humanity may never build robots out of metals which function with the same intelligence as we do - it's all to do with the way in which non-metallic materials bond with each other as opposed to metallic bonding. (Non-metals tend to form small molecules - with the exception of pure carbon, whereas metals join in lumps). In this way it does show that we are limited by what we can do, but again, this does not prove that life must be created by "God" or whatever.
Religion was a good tool for maniplating people into doing other peoples' bidding, however I feel that as we have less and less use for it, religion will eventually be phased out. As someone said, any knew "religions" that form are simply classed as "cults", because basically that's what they are.
The only thing they've ever provided is faith, but the only thing I'll ever be found to put my faith in is the fact that I'll wake up tomorrow morning, knowing still that the chances of that are governed by reason, not by a "Godly force".
RE: RE: RE: Which religion am I? by segosa on 09-15-2006 at 04:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shondoit
@Segosa
I do not claim the universe can't exist without a creator... I only infer it.
As for the creator-universe thing, A creator usualy has intelect, a creations doesn't have anything, no intellect no conciousness.
What? Are you telling me humans have no intellect or conciousness? Humans can't create? You're using a computer right now created by a human. The human is far more complex than the computer. God is far more complex than the human. Therefore, God has a creator, right?!
RE: Which religion am I? by John Anderton on 09-15-2006 at 04:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
What? Are you telling me humans have no intellect or conciousness? Humans can't create? You're using a computer right now created by a human. The human is far more complex than the computer. God is far more complex than the human. Therefore, God has a creator, right?!
But god is supposed to be the ultimate creator so basically this is a contradicting statement and thus, our original assumption that God does exist is not true(./?)
Thus God doesnt exist(./?)
quote:Hmm if you really want to choose, can humanity be an option?
(15-Sep-06) (21:59:03) <JAnderton> segosa: your question was "What religion am I?" right?
(15-Sep-06) (21:59:13) <JAnderton> my answer is "does it really matter?"
Infinite wars have been fought and are being fought, many a cruel acts have taken place on the pretense of "religion" (yes "religion" and not religion)
RE: Which religion am I? by CookieRevised on 09-15-2006 at 04:47 PM
[ON TOPIC]
To try to answer the original question (thread's topic):
@Segosa
For starters, reading your description I would say, like everybody else, you're an atheist (firm belief that there is no God).
As for being an agnostic (belief that since God's existence can't be proved, religion is irrelevant to life), that depends on the definition of 'agnostic'.
Taken in general an agnostic still believes in a something! The only difference with a religious person is that an agnostic also says that you can not proof a God exists or not, whereas a religious person accepts that a God exists and sees proof in every day life.
So, imho, no you're not an agnostic.
As for being irreligious (lack of religion and/or hostility to religion, that realy depends on the definition as irreligious can include important differences depending on context.
In one context, an irreligious person doesn't nessecairly believe that there is nothing, they can still believe in something.
In another context, an irreligious person can be hostile towards religion (I hope you aren't 
). This means you don't respect other people's religion and actually get hostile when one says he is Chatolic for example.
So, imho, I think you're an atheist...
quote:
lol, I believe you. However, it was very predictable that it would end in one
Originally posted by segosa
NOTE: I'm not trying to start a stupid religion debate. just like every browser question ends in a browser-war...
[/ON TOPIC]
--------------------------
[OFF TOPIC]
quote:As long as humans existed, humans always had a notion of fiction. This was so in the early humans, and this was certainly so 2000 years ago... eg: Greek and Roman myths, legends, sagas, etc (way before Jesus' time)... Or even take a look at the written history of the Egyptian culture, Maya culture, etc...
Originally posted by Shondoit
Zombies, werewolves, vampires, ...etc were all thought up in later years, when people started to get concious about fiction
quote:The people argumenting with you here DO take the bible seriously, however they don't take they bible literally like you do. There is a major difference between taking something seriously and literally.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Not taking the bible seriously is your opininion... I believe the Bible is true, and others with me. Alot of people don't. It's just a matter of opinion
quote:This shows exactly how much you know (not saying this disrespectfull; just saying you still need to learn a hell of a lot and need to be very carefull in basing all your believes on something which you didn't learned yet).
Originally posted by Shondoit
Fossils are not prove of evolution, you can not say that fossil evolved into another species... You weren't there, you don't know if it had any children...
Dispite everything, why don't you try to learn about how science works and how they can know why that fosil is an ancestor of that other fosil.
Maybe just learn about how a father-test works, how cloning works, etc. All that can be prooven and seen(!) with your own eyes if you wish, and all are based upon the very same scientific theory.
quote:This is certainly not an argument against evolution at all, even in the lightest sense.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Monkeys and humans are totally different species and cannot bread which eachother (that would be another argument against evolution, how would the new evoluted specie breed?)
Also 1) monkies and humans share 99% of the same DNA, gens, etc.
2) Ever heared of cross-specie breeding? It happens in nature (even without interference of humans), it even is seen and documented by humans.
quote:Please, everything you say here is seriously misquoted, put out of context and what not.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Why didn't dinosaurs live with humans? what facts? The geological column? Carbon dating? both proven to be wrong
The geological column is not the same at every point, At some places in the world the're missing some layers, meaning the era wouldn't have existed at that place...
Carbon dating is even more wrong, it is only accurate for less than 14.000 years, and if the earth's CO2 levels remained constant troughout that time. Tests showed out that a 25 year old carcass whas misdated at few thousand years. The skin of a mamoth was dated a few thousand years older/younger than it's bones...
It's all described in the videos (especialy Seminar 4)
If you have the time, please do...
Such stuff is gladly used by those trying to explain the creation theory while conveniently forgetting that mistakes in dating things are rare. Forgetting that carbon dating is only one of the many methods used. Forgetting that carbon dating has come a waaaaaaaaaay long way since then.
Also you speak of errors of a few thousand years. So what? The earth is billions of years old. Because I can't pinpoint to the exact second when I ate french fries for the last time, doesn't mean I can't pinpoint to the year when I was born... Some dating methods are indeed not accurate to the nearest 100 years, but that doesn't mean they aren't accurate to the nearest thousand years.
Your arguments sound exactly like those arguments used by so many conspiracy believers and what not.
quote:almost everything? So there are things which don't have a creator? Like the universe?
Originally posted by Shondoit
Because almost everything has a creator... becuase you don't know him doesn't mean he doesn't exist...
quote:Don't turn this around. You say because it is written in the bible that God created Eve from Adam's rib, that this is why ribs grow back...
Originally posted by Shondoit
Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone.
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?
(....)
I didn't say it was proof for religion. I only state that it's interresting only the lowest ribs grow back, the one God created Eve from, so it says in the Bible
It is the other way around. Since ribs grow back, the writter of genesis used that as a metaphore to explain something.
And that is the big difference between people taking the whole bible literally and people taking the bible for what it is: a historical document trying to give sense to what people don't understand or didn't understand yet at that time (which is in that context not any different than other texts and books talking about human moral, behaviour, expectations, good and evil, etc). Yes the bible does contain historical facts too, but those facts are not things like God created the universe, those are things like there was a man called Jesus and he was loved by many and had many followers.
Anyways, a rib grows back because that is how evolution works. aka: how we, humans (and animals for that matter), are build.
And that is, btw, prooven science!
It has todo with the gens. Scientists can input/manipulate certain gens so that other limbs do grow back. This is btw even used today in medical science to grow skin, liver, etc to be used as transplantation material in burn wounds for example.
This has absolutely nothing todo with religion or God since it is prooven science.
And fyi, even 2000 years ago people already knew about some medical stuff and some stuff about how the human body worked.
To put it in an extremely short way: the bible or any religion texts are written based upon what people saw and experienced and they used a lot of analogies, and mostly metaphores to explain stuff like moral, good behaviour and what not.
Compare it to what parents do today (and even also already did 2000 years ago): they tell bedtime stories and fairytales to their children. In the first place to entertain them, but in the second place (and willing or not) to teach them stuff... "the moral of the story is...".
I'm not saying the bible is one big fairytale, but it sure can be compared to that in the way some parts are written. Sagas, myths, fairytales and yes even the bible all use a massive amount of metaphores. It doesn't mean it all should be taken literally.
quote:It is not up to us to decide. It is prooven science why they may regrow (and others not). This has got nothing todo with what you may 'believe', but everything with science.
Originally posted by Shondoit
Now, you may believe it or not. But fact is that they regrow, up to you to decide why only those regrow
quote:It is a theory because they can't proof yet HOW the universe evolves during time because they don't have a mathematical model yet. That doesn't not mean they say that God created the universe.
Originally posted by Shondoit
you could say that the universe always existed, without a creator (but what about the Second law of thermodynamics? If it existed billions of years? all energy would be spread throughout the universe, instead of clutter together...)
When I read that Wiki article, the first thing I notice is: "the Big Bang is the scientific theory (...)"
A theory, not a fact...
And even then, many theories exist about many stuff, and certain theories go even against others, yet when taken in context, both theories are very valid and prooven!
eg: What you learn today in school about physics, isn't even usefull and doesn't even work when doing stuff on the smallest scale. For that there is quantum physica and those laws don't hold ground on the biggest scale, etc... All that only means scientists don't have a 'mother formula' yet to explain all in 1 go. And with other stuff it would be way to complicated to put everything in one formula, but not impossible. All that does not mean all that stuff is false and God's doing.
It seems to me that you're very confussed about stuff and still searching for your exact 'religion' and what to believe or not.
In other words, try not to proof that God exist (nobody, ever, have been able to do it) and certainly don't drag things into this which you can't explain/understand (yet) yourself as arguments to back this up as all you do is showing you don't understand those things. Certainly do not use scientific facts as arguments...
Moral: not understanding something doesn't mean it's God doing. You may not understand something today, but that is why people are capable of learning and studying. And in the end people will scientifically proof and thus understand stuff. Not everything, but more than enough to even proof that dinausaurs existed, how humans evolved out of animals, how the earth was formed, how the planets were formed...
To give you an example of what is in the bible which people didn't understand at that time, and thus explained it as something by the hand of God: The burning bush which is describe in the bible which Moses saw. That bush actually does exist and is actually a type of plant found in some desert which produces flameable gasses. When the heat is big enough those gasses ignite and the bush burns out. After that, its seeds come to live and because the fires destroyed nearby plants too, the seeds have more chance of growing in the newly furtalised ground.
quote:1) not all bacteria need oxygen
Originally posted by Shondoit
How did the very first bacteria survived? It needed oxygen from somewhere? Where did it come from? How did the bacteria get so complex? You need alot of parameters to be just right for a bacteria to transform O2 and glucose to CO2 and water, and for the Plant cells the other way around...
(...)quote:Perhaps because it is not true... Did you see any prove of it being possible? I cannot believe we evolved from two ver complex things that need eachother to survive. If evolution was true, it would have taken at least a couple of thousand years to create such bacteria, after which the oxygen, that never existed, would have been used... And how would all those molecules that a bacteria exists of come together? chance?
Originally posted by andrewdodd13
I see no mention of this in the holy book of any religion, but you'll see it in lots of science textbooks.
In fact, there are far more bacteria which don't need oxygen than bacteria which do.
Bacteria can also live in cicumstances you can't even imagine. eg: space, 500°C hot water under a massive amount of pressure (black smokers on the bottem of the ocean), they can survive without any sunlight (caves), they can feed on highly possiness chemicals, etc, etc, etc...
2) of course you need a lot of 'parameters' for live to exist. But that does not mean it is impossible and the evolution theory is rubbish.
3) And yes it takes millions of years for something like that to happen and for species to evolve. That is EXACTLY what the evolution theory tells us and has pooven us... as opposed to God creating everything in 7 days...
4) And yes, it takes some chance for stuff like that to happen, and again this is what the evolution theory tells us and what scientists has prooven to be possible.
Again, it is not because you don't know something, that it isn't possible and/or true and must be the hand of God. I challenge you to actually study some physics and chemistry and stuff before using arguments like that. You would be surprised...
If you then still believe everything is the hand of God, then that's your good right and it will be respected. But at least then you also know how stuff really works (or how scientist have prooven over hundreds of years how stuff works) because as it seems now you only 'believe' because you have no (or little) notion of science and how things work, not because you think God has created everything.
It is not because I don't know how a car exactly works, that it means there is some magic thing going on inside or that it is even God who is pushing the car.
--------------------------------
Also, to think that we, humans, were created by the image of the almightly universe ruling God while there billions of other species and even billions of other planets with possible life in the universe, seems a bit waaaaaaaaaay selfish to me (and I though being selfish is something God does NOT want the humans to be; so this creation theory actually goes against your own religion!!!!!!!!! Hell, this is proof that every religion is flawed and thus shows that religion is a creation of men.)
Not to mention that it is even way more and undescribable selfish of those who believe in Jesus and God to think that they only speak the truth, seeing all the thousands of cultures, religions and what not.
Religion is something humans themselfs have created, not vice versa...
and
quote:
Originally posted by traxor
Religion is simply a belief, it is not fact.
[/OFF TOPIC]
RE: Which religion am I? by John Anderton on 09-15-2006 at 05:08 PM
quote:Do you see visible signs on intelligent life on any of the other 7 (lolpluto
I cannot believe we evolved from two ver complex things that need eachother to survive. If evolution was true, it would have taken at least a couple of thousand years to create such bacteria, after which the oxygen, that never existed, would have been used... And how would all those molecules that a bacteria exists of come together? chance?
) planets in the solar system. If there was a creator, why would he make such a huge space and keep us alone? If you really are a creator, why not put more life into it. Surely, thats what id do.Do you make a computer, put an OS and one software on it and just leave it there? No you put other softwares on it. Do more things ....
If anyone can conclusively prove anything to me, im willing to believe it.
You say god is there, prove it. Saying he is there cause anyof the afore said reasons is true wont work. Like segosa said, give me your own answer, if you can convice me, ill believe in god.
You say he isnt there, prove it. You havent seen, hence he is there isnt valid since there are a lot of things that you havent seen.
If you ask me what do you believe in, my answer will be I believe in myself, the holy complier (like dt so eliquently put it
) and any of the above conditions you are able to conclusively prove (to me).
RE: Which religion am I? by Lourix on 09-15-2006 at 06:21 PM
For me God is everything from Plants to humans. Believe in yourself that is what really counts
RE: Which religion am I? by John Anderton on 09-15-2006 at 07:01 PM
Atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
Irreligious - hostile or indifferent to religion
Indifferent - marked by a lack of interest (Just incase someone didnt know 
)
Religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
God - the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe
Thus, Religion - a strong belief in God. (From definitions 3 and 4)
Definitions courtesy google define: term searches
I would say you are kind of indifferent to it and you are clearly deniying gods existance in your explanation.
My answer would be atheist mainly but you are also irreligious.
If you are an atheist, you deny the existance of god, thus you dont believe in religion. Religion is a "strong belief in God" and thus you dont believe in God. I belive this implies/could imply that you dont care about this matter ie you are indifferent to it. And thus you are irreligious.
Thus being an atheist implies that you are pretty much irreligious (in an indifferent manner and not the hostile one) but you cant make an implication in the opposite direction.
Your hostility (in the sense aggrevation), if restricted to the dumb things people do in the name of religion like here then i wouldnt really consider that hostility.
Thus my answer is you are an atheist (and this implies you are irreligious as well i guess )
RE: Which religion am I? by CookieRevised on 09-15-2006 at 08:18 PM
quote:you can be atheist without being irreligious...
Originally posted by John Anderton
I belive this implies/could imply that you dont care about this matter ie you are indifferent to it. And thus you are irreligious.
Thus being an atheist implies that you are pretty much irreligious (in an indifferent manner and not the hostile one) but you cant make an implication in the opposite direction.
Thus my answer is you are an atheist (and this implies you are irreligious as well i guess (Smilie))
Irreligious is a general grouping term for things like atheist; it is not another 'category' next to atheist if you will, etc. Irreligious isn't a fixed term either, it very highly depends in what context it is used and what definition you give to it, and some definitions even contradict eachother...
Just as you can be an atheist and still be interested in religion.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
In one context, an irreligious person doesn't nessecairly believe that there is nothing, they can still believe in something.
In another context, an irreligious person does not believe in something and can even be hostile towards religion. This can mean you don't respect other people's religion and actually get hostile when one says he is Chatolic for example.
Imho, the term irreligious actually means absolutely nothing as it doesn't have a clear definition and is used in all sorts of (even contradicting) contexts. The term should never existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion
RE: Which religion am I? by FrozenDaggers on 09-15-2006 at 09:53 PM
Just be all 3. If you dont like/believe in Religion, then what's the big deal with finding you 'relgion' against it? lol...
Edit: Btw, if someone else said that, I apologize. I cba with reading the 7000 posts before this. 
Yes, I'm lazy
RE: Which religion am I? by Chrono on 09-15-2006 at 09:57 PM
You're chronguian seg
RE: Which religion am I? by John Anderton on 09-16-2006 at 05:36 PM
quote:Why do you think i showed googled definitions and stuff. Anyway, if the answer has to be from the given options, ive already stated them and if its an open question (which it isnt) ive still stated my answer
Originally posted by CookieRevised
The term should never existed.
quote:No, he's segonian. He meant what other religion is he.
Originally posted by Chrono
You're chronguian seg
And no one in their right minds wants to Chronigian
