Use of the Sponsor program - Printable Version
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Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 10-31-2006 at 09:33 AM
As some of you know, and despite what others may think I have been strongly against the used of LOP.COM and similar sponsors being included in freeware programs - such as Plus! regardless of whether it's optional or not. I'm endeavouring to raise this issue in a very respectful way, I mean no disrespect to Patchou, forum administration and moderators, to beta testers, to fellow forum members - or to anyone else (including lurkers etc).
I still strongly feel that if any option should be given it should be given at the time of Download, not at the time of Installation.
I am working on a new section of my website, and partly it will contain anti-adware and anti-wga sections. I know some of you say Patchou deserves to make revenue from Plus! and that Bandwidth costs money - but there are many other options. Firstly he already has advertising on the website itself, secondly if he didn't have the sponsor there would be many file mirrors who would be more than willing to assist him and take that load off of his server. Also, there are many web hosts who would be more than happy to provide domain hosting in exchange for google ads on his pages - and as Patchou HAS the Google ads, AND he pays for hosting he gets to keep all additional revenue.
I know many people may be thinking "who are you to criticize Patchou's use of a sponsor, you do not understand". I can assure you I have made contributions online for a very long time, and I have several scripts (and possibly compiled programs) I will be distributing from my own website - a site with no ads on it, and no PayPal link.
[Admin Edit]
Paragraph removed. Served little purpose to the thread asides from advertising your site and discussing bypassing copy protection (not only illegal, but a violation of forum rules)
[/Admin Edit]
Here is a fantastic site - with no advertising (except for their sponsor) and all their freeware is clean, and does not ask you to install 3rd party adware. This site has MANY fantastic programs - not just one, and is clear proof there are many other options:
http://sysinternals.com/
And finally Patchou gives you NO OTHER support/donation options aside from the sponsor program, so is enough enough? "DVD Jon" gives his stuff away because he has a passion for defeating propriety software systems. DVD Decrypter - perhaps the most famous product based on Jon's code - was free with no strings attached.
ISP's sometimes give courtesy calls to customers when they notice their customer accounts are sending SPAM. They will often ask not only that online virus-scans are run, but also anti-adware software such as Ad-Aware or SpyBot is run - Patchou's sponsor interferes with this.
It is time to face facts: those who install the sponsor don't want it on their system. This poll should reflect how people feel about the sponsor. The questions have been worded precisely - you'll notice there's not a "I specifically discourage people from installing the sponsor" as it's redundant. If there is anyone here who encourages their friends or family to install Patchou's sponsor - please reply personally and explain why you do. Because they way I see it the question isn't "do we have a clear choice" - but if no one (or very few people) encourages their friends and family to install the Sponsor - who is Patchou to encourage them to?
At any rate, I believe this needs to be addressed, I look forward to your replies;
Daniel
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Puniksem on 10-31-2006 at 10:46 AM
I make no bones about the sponsor program, I've had many a time where I've serviced a computer only to find the computer is riddled with spyware/malware and various other types of 'CrapWare' and boy have I had a fight to clear a system of said CrapWare.
I'm inclined to agree with you about the point of having the sponsor program choice when downloading not during installation. this would save alot of accidental installations.
Many people who install the sponsor and similar programs do not even know what it is or what it does when I've asked them, and did not have a clue as to where it may have come from when removing it.
Sorry Patchou, but I for one don't believe you need the sponsor program as a means of income, even though it aides my income to have to repeatedly remove it (by request).
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by RaceProUK on 10-31-2006 at 10:45 PM
quote:Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor. In fact, now you have to choose whether to install itor not in orderto install Plus! itself!And before you say 'Well, people will just tick 'Yes' without reading',yes they will. And they'll do exactly the same on a webpage (that's whyphishing is so lucrative).
Originally posted by Puniksem
this would save alot of accidentalinstallations
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by ins4ne on 10-31-2006 at 10:53 PM
i did those mistakes when i got my computer the first to weeks. after 15 formats i said why did that happen. then i started to read everything. i did read the end user license!! 
its a bunch of crap BUT (omfg) what you accept 
. i never use the sponsor (sorry patchou but i dont like
quote:) and i never encourage others to install the sponsor.
Originally posted by Puniksem
'CrapWare'
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-01-2006 at 12:59 AM
quote:It seems you don't gauge how "automatic" it really is in the same way I do. For instance I have accidentally installed the sponsor program - oh say 3 or 4 times now. Although on every occasion of promptly removed it - it makes my skin crawl to think that this is how Patchou makes money.
Originally posted by RaceProUK
quote:Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor. In fact, now you have to choose whether to install itor not in orderto install Plus! itself!And before you say 'Well, people will just tick 'Yes' without reading',yes they will. And they'll do exactly the same on a webpage (that's whyphishing is so lucrative).
Originally posted by Puniksem
this would save alot of accidentalinstallations
One time I mistyped the switch /SilentInstalNoSonsor - and it proceeded to install the Plus! with the sponsor (try it yourself on Plus!3)! Even if there is a "choice" it's still a bad choice when clearly most of us would never recommend to our friends and family to install the sponsor - who is Patchou to recommend they do?
If Patchou is serious about making money from Plus! he could make it a commercial product. I would prefer this then for it to be bundled with this stuff. And there are still many other options available. Besides I didn't stat this thread to discuss whether or not the choice is sufficient - I started it to discuss if there is anyone who recommends to friends and family to install the Plus! Sponsor.
"Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor."
Here is the Sponsor agreement Window:
![[Image: msgplusliveagreecl2.png]](http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/7269/msgplusliveagreecl2.png)
It reveals that it is AdWare. AdWare is like Windows Live Messenger - ads are displayed in program. But it doesn't fully disclose what is going to happen.
I once made the very basics of MSN Messenger in VB, and believe me I could complete the program if I so desired.
Here - see for yourself http://plamdi.com/files/msnmsgr.zip
It's only a proof of concept really, it was at a time when you couldn't select your status when signing in. You can't start conversations in it. An interesting thing is that if you click "Remove Allow" on a contact you'll appear offline only to that contact, regardless of your status - but the contact is not blocked. This still works. You may wonder why there are "encoding options" for the nickname - again proof that you could write longer nicknames if you used minimal encoding when sending to the server. It was also possible to have &# nicknames when sent in specific ways (I still have &# on one account - although I don't think it's possible anymore to change back to it). The method I used was to use an "invalid" character request between & and # - such as %09 (Tab) ... the server would accept the nickname, and then remove %09 from it, so your resulting nickname was &#... or %26%23... or however you'd encoded it. Before that it was possible to send requests to the server like &%23 or %26# and it would be accepted.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by qgroessl on 11-01-2006 at 04:03 AM
I selected the first one... It's not that I'd tell anybody that wants to download the sponsor not to... I just don't install it... and if anybody asks me whether they should or not I'd say no... But it's not like I'd try to persuade somebody out of it.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by deAd on 11-01-2006 at 04:55 AM
Meksilon, what is with all the random bragging in your posts?
Your Messenger client is completely off topic. You're jumping from Adware to your own client. Advertising for sysinternals.com was also completely pointless, and your Monkey Island patch and the fact that your site has no ads are pointless too.
Your point is very clear, but it is highly unlikely that Patchou will remove the optional adware from Plus!. The adware installation is presented in a way that warns the user more than any other adware-containing software I've seen.
The adware is Patchou's main source of income from the Plus! project. He has all the right to include this in his program.
The way I see it, Patchou is not responsible for people who install the software. In fact, his installer would probably dissuade most people from installing the adware at all. It provides a warning, stating explicitly that the sponsor is adware and telling users that it is completely optional but will help keep Plus! a free product. If users just click "next, yes, next" without reading, it is completely the user's fault. Patchou is not responsible for the stupidity of users not willing to read. If a user does install the adware, Patchou provides instructions with the warning on how to install it. They are very simple: run the Plus! uninstaller. Once the uninstaller is ran, the sponsor can be removed simply and easily with the click of a button.
Patchou has provided users with all necessary information regarding this 3rd party adware, and the necessary tools to remove it. As I've said before, most software would just install it without prompting or pretend it's good software to get users to install it. Patchou leaves it entirely up to the user whether they chose to install it or not, and provides them with examples of both positive and negative results of the matter to make their decision unbiased.
In my opinion, even though many users may install this (accidentally or deliberately) and complain, it does not need to be removed. These users are the users that refuse to read or follow simple directions. Patchou has no responsibility for their actions.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by L. Coyote on 11-01-2006 at 06:02 AM
I don't go around telling people to install it "or else", but whenever someone downloads Plus! because I tell them about it, I mention the sponsor and how safe it is (and the fact that it's friggin' OPTIONAL!).
Btw, if anyone really cares, I voted for the third option. I encourage, not demand. 
quote:I had the impression that WLM was a chat client with ads, not adware. :/
Originally posted by Meksilon
AdWare is like Windows Live Messenger - ads are displayed in program.
Adware is a program which its only purpose is to serve ads, and has an EULA to go with it and all.
Spyware and Malware is when they shove it up your butt without an option and without you even realizing it.
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-01-2006 at 01:31 PM
quote:Well that's your point of view, I simply feel I have nothing to hide. Sysinternals is fantastic, and "word of mouth" is the most effective form of advertising - yes, but it's not like I profit from saying so. In fact, I don't profit from promoting my own site either - and considering the fact I don't really promote it at all I don't see how you can critisize me for "advertising" it.
Originally posted by deAd
Meksilon, what is with all the random bragging in your posts?
Your Messenger client is completely off topic. You're jumping from Adware to your own client. Advertising for sysinternals.com was also completely pointless, and your Monkey Island patch and the fact that your site has no ads are pointless too.
The way I see it, Patchou is not responsible for people who install the software.
Really?
In fact, his installer would probably dissuade most people from installing the adware at all. It provides a warning, stating explicitly that the sponsor is adware and telling users that it is completely optional
They way I see it - you have the choice, you have the warning:
![[Image: cigaretteshealthwarningki0.jpg]](http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3103/cigaretteshealthwarningki0.jpg)
Just because they have it big and clear doesn't change the reality that they're responsible for bad health. This can be directly related to Patchou's installation package. At least smokers WANT to smoke.
but will help keep Plus! a free product.
Again, I have huge problems with thinking this way. I go down to the club and can enjoy a cheap meal and cheap drinks - because of their 100 poker machines - is that fair? No it isn't, and I have huge problems with poker machines in Australia - we have the choice - we have the warnings ... but it's better not to have them at all - much better.
If users just click "next, yes, next" without reading, it is completely the user's fault.
That's a matter of opinion. The letter of the law as it stands puts at fault the other party - not the consenting user. For instance, if I was taken to hospital and the nurse asked me to agree to surgery and referred to it in hospital jargon I didn't understand and then latter I found my legs were removed - I could sue the hospital for it because they had not ensured that I fully understood what I was agreeing to.
Patchou is not responsible for the stupidity of users not willing to read.
I beg to differ - he is directly responsible if he takes advantage of it. The "stupidity of users"? I have know personal friends who have installed Plus! with the sponsor and then removed it. I never recommend Plus! to others, and calling my friends "stupid" is simply not on.
Patchou has provided users with all necessary information regarding this 3rd party adware
Who - after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor - would install it?
Patchou has no responsibility for their actions.
See the above image.
Spyware and Malware is when they shove it up your butt without an option and without you even realizing it.
Again - who after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor would install it?
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by absorbation on 11-01-2006 at 04:27 PM
Well I thank you for your detailed and professional way of posting. We often get things like:
'You suck, i hate you, you gave me a virus'
I also feel strongly about adware. I don't think anti-virus companies portray it right. A lot just simple detect it as a trojan, when it is not. They don't tell you what the program may do. More clear guidelines would stop people pancing. I mean what is a virus nowadays?
C2LOP is not the best adware company. But the software Patchou uses is heavily stripped. I guess you have to take the bad with the good. I agree with you on some levels, because the sponsor is giving the program a bad name. I'm sure Patchou would get rid of it if he could find a better way to make money from his program
People don't seem to give him many offers, I'm sure if he done his research he could make more money without annoying users as much. Maybe he can make a deal with Microsoft in some way, they tend to bundle a lot of things in their installations
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by RaceProUK on 11-01-2006 at 06:59 PM
quote:No, Patchou doesn't disclose that info; however, the sponsor program's EULA does, and if you select 'Install the sponsor', the EULA for it is the very next screen.
Originally posted by Meksilon
But it doesn't fully disclose what is going to happen.
Also, Patchou has struck a deal whereby the sponsor program is much lighter and far less intrusive than Lop's normal software.
Anyway, let's stop all this bitching and arguing. The sponsor is the sponsor, it's here for the foreseeable future, and if people install it without reading, then they should pay a little more attention.
And before you say 'So you read everything?', no I don't, but then the depth of knowledge I have about PCs, Windows, inner workings etc. is more than the average user.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by CookieRevised on 11-02-2006 at 12:49 AM
quote:There would be not much difference.
Originally posted by Meksilon
I still strongly feel that if any option should be given it should be given at the time of Download, not at the time of Installation.
The only difference would be that the setup of Plus! which does include the sponsor, can be falsly reconized by some anti-spyware tools as malicious.
quote:If there are "many other options", Patchou would already have choosen them since a long long time. The truth is that there are no other options which give the same kind of sponsorship. For years and years people have said "there are other options", yet no-one, absolutely no-one, has come up with a concrete working example.
Originally posted by Meksilon
I know some of you say Patchou deserves to make revenue from Plus! and that Bandwidth costs money - but there are many other options.
All too often the sponsorship which is used in Plus! is compared to google-ads and the likes and people say "it works for that site, so why wouldn't it work for Plus!". What they forget and even don't know is the huge number of needed resources for a project as Plus!, which can not be compared to a random "google-ad"'ed site or other software.
Again, if there were other ways, Patchou would have used it already.
As for the rest of your arguments, they are well intended, but show that you don't know what it takes to have something like Plus! running and keeping it free. It simply isn't that easy as you let it seem. If it was, everybody would already be a billionair.
quote:Not only doesn't this have to do with anything sponsor related. It is also against the rules to advertise for such illegal (yes it is 100% illagel what you do) material on this forum and therefore you're post is reported.
Originally posted by Meksilon
In fact, I was the only person EVER (to my knowledge) to offer fully version-modifying patches for Monkey Island 1 and Monkey Island 2 (I preferred not to think of them as cracks, because even when removing copy protection the version was still fully 100% a release version) - and I will be bringing them back online! Other people may have offered cracks - but I analysed the differences between release versions. I also made public the easy simple "backdoor" method to enter MI2 without cracking its copy protection (they always start on the same symbols, if you kit enter immediately they'll always display the same two symbols to you - this in effect is a back-door). I still have the original patches, so they will be back (I no longer have the program I made them with though). Their effectiveness today is muted by ScummVM which removes copy protection Anyway.
And you spreading those tools for free are, with all due respect, absolutely no reference at all to something like Plus! which is downloaded thousand of times each day, which requires many dedicated sound servers to cope with the billions of sound downloads, which requires many more servers for bandwidth, this forum, etc, etc, etc...
quote:Again, no reference at all. The people from sysinternals do not depend on those tools for a living. It is "only" a side-project, a hobby. Not to mention that sysinternals isn't owned anymore by those people (but by MS iirc).
Originally posted by Meksilon
Here is a fantastic site - with no advertising (except for their sponsor) and all their freeware is clean, and does not ask you to install 3rd party adware. This site has MANY fantastic programs - not just one, and is clear proof there are many other options:
http://sysinternals.com/
There is no-one paying Patchou for making Plus!, which _is_ his full-time job afterall. So he does need to make money from something. If the people from sysinternals had to live from those tools, be absolutely sure those tools wouldn't be free at all or that they would come with some advertising in them.
quote:Again wrong... You can support the Plus! project by bying stuff from the online shop for example.
Originally posted by Meksilon
And finally Patchou gives you NO OTHER support/donation options aside from the sponsor program
quote:Again, he doesn't need to make a living from it. Neither does he requires the amount of servers or resources which Plus! requires.
Originally posted by Meksilon
"DVD Jon" gives his stuff away because he has a passion for defeating propriety software systems.
quote:How do you know that? Sure there are people who don't read the _very_ clear options properly when they are installing something. But there are also many people who do know that they install the sponsor and they want it to install.
Originally posted by Meksilon
It is time to face facts: those who install the sponsor don't want it on their system.
quote:Absolutely not.
Originally posted by Meksilon
This poll should reflect how people feel about the sponsor.
For example: I could vote for "I do not recommend people to install the sponsor". But that certainly does _not_ reflect how I feel about the sponsor as I do not recommend to install it, but I also do not recommend to NOT install it. I _do_ recommend to read stuff properly and carefully and let the user desite on their _own_...
In other words: your poll is flawed.
quote:The questions are flawed... see previous reply above. The option "I specifically discourage people from installing the sponsor" is certainly not redundant at all.
Originally posted by Meksilon
The questions have been worded precisely - you'll notice there's not a "I specifically discourage people from installing the sponsor" as it's redundant.
quote:It would make absolutely no difference. Those who don't read the current setup properly and accidently install the sponsor, would also not properly read a website-side setup choice.
Originally posted by Puniksem
I'm inclined to agree with you about the point of having the sponsor program choice when downloading not during installation. this would save alot of accidental installations.
In fact, it will make things even worse as the setup which includes the sponsor would have no option anymore to opt out.
quote:Yes, and people installing the sponsor WANT to install the sponsor.
Originally posted by Meksilon
Just because they have it big and clear doesn't change the reality that they're responsible for bad health. This can be directly related to Patchou's installation package. At least smokers WANT to smoke.
Just as some stupid kiddie who think it is cool to smoke, ignores the warnings (analogy to people who don't read the options presented in the Plus! installer and thus "accidently" install the sponsor).
In short: your comparisson is wrong
quote:It is extremely clear to what the options are, in plain understandable English....
Originally posted by Meksilon
If users just click "next, yes, next" without reading, it is completely the user's fault.
That's a matter of opinion. The letter of the law as it stands puts at fault the other party - not the consenting user.
And according to law, Patchou probably doesn't even need to have the options, the explanation and everything else, as long as the EULA is provided. So he does even more than what the law says...
quote:If you didn't understood what you were agreeing on you also wouldn't have signed the paper. If you did signed it, you explicitly said that you understood. In case something like this happened (god forbid) and you took it to court, you would actually loose.
Originally posted by Meksilon
For instance, if I was taken to hospital and the nurse asked me to agree to surgery and referred to it in hospital jargon I didn't understand and then latter I found my legs were removed - I could sue the hospital for it because they had not ensured that I fully understood what I was agreeing to.
quote:The thing is: he doesn't take advantage of it...
Originally posted by Meksilon
Patchou is not responsible for the stupidity of users not willing to read.
I beg to differ - he is directly responsible if he takes advantage of it.
If he would, he would already be a billionair living on a remote island and not thinking about supporting or bug fixing Plus!.
I never ever seen a virus writer (the ones who _do_ take advantage of people) saying, hey wait, here is a bug fix, or "next month I'll make that virus compatible with Windows X"...
quote:By "stupidity" people mean that those who do not read the clear warnings and option were stupid not to do it. They don't say those people are stupid in every sense of the word.
Originally posted by Meksilon
The "stupidity of users"? I have know personal friends who have installed Plus! with the sponsor and then removed it. I never recommend Plus! to others, and calling my friends "stupid" is simply not on.
If I bump my car into a tree because I didn't saw it, everybody would call me stupid too, eventhough I might be a smart guy (I hope
).quote:This implies you exactly know how each and every one of those millions and millions of users think?
Originally posted by Meksilon
Patchou has provided users with all necessary information regarding this 3rd party adware
Who - after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor - would install it?
As a matter of fact, I do install the sponsor, and I do know what it does and also know what it isn't and doesn't.
quote:That's not the issue of that quote. The issue is that many people throw everything on one big pile, while there are very clear and massive differences.
Originally posted by Meksilon
Spyware and Malware is when they shove it up your butt without an option and without you even realizing it.
Again - who after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor would install it?
You may have different opinions (of course), but state and discuss the stuff by its true terms.
-----------------
To conclude, you may have some small points here and there but in general your points and thoughts/suggestions seriously lack true facts or are held together with very loose, if not wrong, comparissons.
-----------------
It all boils down to:
If there was an alternative, Patchou would already have implemented it.
Untill there is a real other alternative, the sponsor is here to stay in the way it currently is, no matter how much you 'bitch' about it (wrong choice of words, but still...).
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-02-2006 at 02:38 AM
quote:Like this?
Originally posted by RaceProUK
No, Patchou doesn't disclose that info; however, the sponsor program's EULA does, and if you select 'Install the sponsor', the EULA for it is the very next screen.
Also, Patchou has struck a deal whereby the sponsor program is much lighter and far less intrusive than Lop's normal software.
![[Image: bensonandhedgesxd7.gif]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6122/bensonandhedgesxd7.gif)
quote:It is a trojan, depending on your definition of the word. Trojans do not have to be harmful - they just have to be a program that pretends its something else.
Originally posted by absorbation
I also feel strongly about adware. I don't think anti-virus companies portray it right. A lot just simple detect it as a trojan, when it is not.
quote:No it's not.
C2LOP is not the best adware company. But the software Patchou uses is heavily stripped.
quote:Imagine if I wrote a book, and I got sponsorship from Marlboro - and with every book purchased all my customers could have an optional pack of cigarettes with it - but it's their choice. Would I get angry letters from community groups, health organizations and doctors? You bet I would. Would it matter if they were "Extra Mild"? Heck no.
I guess you have to take the bad with the good. I agree with you on some levels, because the sponsor is giving the program a bad name.
Advanced PC users, system professionals - computer technicians and anti-malware groups are writing angry letters all over the internet - and I know that many have written to Patchou's email personally as well. Some probably sent snail-mail as well.
Your declaration that his sponsor is somehow "light" is misleading. The start page has been dropped, and so the toolbar and the pass through bar was removed... but that doesn't change the fact that it adds its sites to your pop-up blocker's safe list automatically - or that it goes through your windows HOSTS file and ensures there's access to its sites through there. All the *content* is still there, and is still displayed. The worst parts of it have not been removed.
And what about the long-standing complaints against C2Media/Circle Development owned sites:
code:And many more? Yes, the last site contains advertisements for x-rated material. I don't suggest visiting any of the three - I'd just thought I'd remind you of which sites Patchou's fantastic sponsor owns.
negativebeats.com
positivebeats.com
x******.com
quote:That is called conjecture - it is a point of view which is not necessarily based on reality.
I'm sure Patchou would get rid of it if he could find a better way to make money from his program
quote:
People don't seem to give him many offers, I'm sure if he done his research he could make more money without annoying users as much. Maybe he can make a deal with Microsoft in some way, they tend to bundle a lot of things in their installations
...
quote:"Falsely"? Many people consider lop.com malware* - and at any rate it actively promotes and advertises malware and spyware and is a computer hijacker (it runs even when Plus! isn't running - and deliberately overrides user's computer settings).
Originally posted by CookieRevised
The only difference would be that the setup of Plus! which does include the sponsor, can be falsly reconized by some anti-spyware tools as malicious.
*From Wikipedia: Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent.
quote:Conjecture.
If there are "many other options", Patchou would already have choosen them since a long long time.
quote:The truth is there are other options.
The truth is that there are no other options which give the same kind of sponsorship.
quote:Because it's not their job to. It's Patchou's responsibility. I have made other suggestions anyway. File mirrors would sponsor him with their bandwidth if not for C2Media.
For years and years people have said "there are other options", yet no-one, absolutely no-one, has come up with a concrete working example.
quote:If all Patchou had was Google ads on every page of his website, they would more than pay for the bandwidth. That is a fact. And it would certainly be true if he had file mirrors to take the load off his personal bandwidth. My free Anti-Virus (with more users than Plus!) has no ads in it.
All too often the sponsorship which is used in Plus! is compared to google-ads and the likes and people say "it works for that site, so why wouldn't it work for Plus!".
quote:Again, conjecture.
Again, if there were other ways, Patchou would have used it already.
quote:It's not free by my definition of the word.
but show that you don't know what it takes to have something like Plus! running and keeping it free.
quote:That makes no sense. I never said Patchou could get wealthy following my advice. In fact - he would probably have to get a real job and do Plus! as his hobby following my advice.
It simply isn't that easy as you let it seem. If it was, everybody would already be a billionair.
quote:LOL, and where are the files? I tell you what, I'll upload one just for you:
Not only doesn't this have to do with anything sponsor related. It is also against the rules to advertise for such illegal (yes it is 100% illagel what you do) material on this forum and therefore you're post is reported.
It's all yours, that patch will convert the Kixx release to the original LucasArts floppy release (it will add the copy-protection). Illegal? You know - you may have me there...
quote:And Patchou shouldn't depend on Plus! for a living - if it's supposed to be freeware. In actual fact - Patchou doesn't make a living from developing Plus!. He makes a living from selling Circle Development Ltd's Product. He makes a fulltime living from people installing Malware. There is a clear distinction.
The people from sysinternals do not depend on those tools for a living.
quote:Neither does Patchou - and he doesn't make a living from developing Plus! - he uses it to help him sell his sponsor's adware.
Again, he doesn't need to make a living from it.
quote:Where are they? Are they the majority of users who install the sponsor - or the minority?
But there are also many people who do know that they install the sponsor and they want it to install.
quote:No I wouldn't. Signing a contract under false pretences voids at least part of the contract - and in most cases would void the entire contract. Hospitals have a duty of care, and part of that duty of care means that you understand what surgery you're agreeing to.
If you didn't understood what you were agreeing on you also wouldn't have signed the paper. If you did signed it, you explicitly said that you understood. In case something like this happened (god forbid) and you took it to court, you would actually loose.
Don't forget the case in England which more than proves I'm right - a woman volunteered to be a test subject for IVF. They then created an embryo, and it died before they implanted it. They realized it had died because it was exposed to air - and then she got so upset about it that she sued them for killing the embryo - she said she did not understand that is what they would do - they did not inform her that it was a possibility that they would cause the death of the embryo ... and she won the case.
It is illegal for doctors or hospital staff to give you information that is not sufficient for you to understand to make an informed choice.
quote:Rubbish.
If he would, he would already be a billionair living on a remote island and not thinking about supporting or bug fixing Plus!.
quote:You're not a general user though. You may as well be the head of Marlboro saying "as it happens I love to smoke". You're biased. General users do not feel the same way.
As a matter of fact, I do install the sponsor, and I do know what it does and also know what it isn't and doesn't.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by deAd on 11-02-2006 at 02:59 AM
quote:And what's that have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. Patchou does provide sufficient information to make an informed choice about installing the adware.
Originally posted by Meksilon
It is illegal for doctors or hospital staff to give you information that is not sufficient for you to understand to make an informed choice.
Also, you'd better think twice before advertising sites and posting illegal content here. We happen to have a rules page which explicitly states that illegal content and advertising is prohibited.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Fanta on 11-02-2006 at 04:00 AM
I think in all actuality, that most people that complain about the sponsor, have not read the installation of plus! carefully, installed the sponsor, and felt stupid they did. They blame someone else to not feel stupid themselves. Because lets face it: it's VERY clear in the installation what you are choosing for. I should know, I've installed the sponsor and uninstalled it about 40 times + by now.
Another thing, is that most people that complain about the sponsor haven't actually used it. The sponsor is a light version of a heavier package. Simply stating "that's not true" is kind of bold. Have you actually tried both?
People keep comparing plus! to other sites, freeware and offers, and conclude that there would be many other options to gain revenu from plus! in different ways. Yet I haven't seen ANYONE actually GIVING those options. If you present an arguement, back it up with facts?
Those who know Patchou, know that he spends a full daytime job on Plus! They know what resourses are needed to keep Plus! running. Combine two and two together and you realise plus! will have to bring in some form of justification to be there, no money = no plus! Of course an option would be to let people pay for the download. (I hope Patch doesn't see this comment ) but what's worse? People having to pay for something, or sponsor plus! by watching some advertisements, advertisements that aren't even abusive or of nasty content.
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-02-2006 at 08:45 AM
quote:I have no problems with the rules - in fact, I've just edited my post to remove the host name to one of LOP.COM's websites (the one which advertises pornography). I was going to do it originally, but as I know how many younger viewers there are here it's only fair to remove it. The "patch" (if you can call it that) I linked to is a grey area of the law, it's not specifically illegal - there is no Monkey Island 2 EULA. And besides, it cannot be used to bypass the copy-protection check (there's another one that does that) like say ScummVM does. Does that make ScummVM illegal? Furthermore, the patch does not modify the executable - it modifies one of the resource files - and it modifies it to a LucasArts-Approved State - I don't think it's illegal, no. Nor do I think the other two pages I linked to are illegal - although you could claim I'm illegally using copyrighted artwork.
Originally posted by deAd
Also, you'd better think twice before advertising sites and posting illegal content here. We happen to have a rules page which explicitly states that illegal content and advertising is prohibited.
As for the rule against "Advertising" - everything you do can be considered Advertising in some way. I'm not trying to advertise, I thought that would be clear to anyone.
quote:What about as I said before how even with the final version of Plus3! if you mistype the silentinstallnosponsor switch it installs plus WITH the sponsor? Isn't that a great DEFAULT?
Originally posted by Fanta
I think in all actuality, that most people that complain about the sponsor, have not read the installation of plus! carefully
quote:Yes, and isn't it interesting that instead of getting paid for that he gets paid for people installing his Adware Sponsor?
Those who know Patchou, know that he spends a full daytime job on Plus!
quote:Not of nasty content? LOP advertises deliberately misleading software, they deliberately override your internet security settings - and that's not nasty? I have all LOP's sites blocked directly in my HOSTS file. If I install Patchou's sponsor it removes them. How is that not obtrusive and nasty? What about how it adds it sites to your pop-up blocker's safe list? That is clearly obtrusive and nasty.
People having to pay for something, or sponsor plus! by watching some advertisements, advertisements that aren't even abusive or of nasty content.
Read the EULA?
quote:Where does it disclose that these changes are going to be made?
PLEASE READ THIS END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT AND PRIVACY POLICY CAREFULLY AND MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THEM. THIS IS A CONTRACT AND BY INDICATING YOUR ACCEPTANCE, YOU ACCEPT ALL THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT AND THE APPLICABLE PRIVACY POLICY.
End User License Agreement
This End User License Agreement ("Agreement") governs use of Circle Developement Ltd.'s ("CiD") software product and related written materials (the "Software") that you are about to install. The term "Software" also includes any upgrades, modified versions or updates of the Software, which may be provided to you from time to time. A copy of the Software will be licensed to you as the registered end user. THE SPONSOR SOFTWARE, IF INSTALLED, WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH ADDITIONAL CONTENT, PROMOTIONAL OFFERS, ADVERTISEMENTS AND OTHER WEB BROWSER ENHANCEMENTS BASED, IN PART, ON KEYWORDS IN THE WEBSITES YOU VISIT. Before you install the Software, you must agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. If you do not agree, you may close this window and choose to proceed without the installation of the sponsor software.
1) By accepting these terms and conditions, the Software will be installed on your computer. The search page for your web browsers auto search option and default error page are set to a web page determined by the Software. The Software does not transmit the URL of any website that you or any user visits to a 3rd party server. The Software will deliver popup advertisements on your computer on a regular basis. Installation of the Software may also add bookmarks to your computer and web browser, and shortcuts to the desktop and various menus. The added bookmarks and shortcuts may be removed manually or via un-installation of the Software. If incorrect host-file entries are detected for this Software's related domain names, those entries will be removed in order for this software to function properly.
2) You represent and warrant that you are at least 18 years of age and that you are the owner or are authorized by the owner of this computer to download and install software on this computer. Because the Software is advertising supported and provides additional content based on keywords in the websites you visit, you agree to provide a copy of CiD's Privacy Policy and this Agreement to any users of this computer and obtain their consent to this Agreement and the Privacy Policy before installation of the Software, unless you can legally accept this Agreement on behalf of all other users of this computer.
3) By accepting this agreement you acknowledge that in order for this software to function properly it must communicate with its host network via the Internet from your computer. You hereby grant your explicit approval for this software to communicate from this computer system through your software firewall or hardware routing system (if present) with CiDs' host network. For users of Windows XP Sp2 this softwares host domain names will be added to your web browsers allowed list for popups. Because this software will incorporate as part of your Internet Explorer web browser package and will run as part of that process when active on your system, your firewall or router may not prompt you for communication access once this software is installed.
4) The use and presence of the Software is voluntary. The Software may be uninstalled at any time from your computer. The only authorized means to uninstall the Software is to use the ADD/REMOVE function on your control panel. Instructions to uninstall the Software are as follows:
1. Access your control panel by going to the Start menu;
2. Select Control Panel;
3. Choose ADD/REMOVE PROGRAMS; and,
4. Select MESSENGER PLUS! for removal.
If you encounter any problems during the uninstall process or have any other questions about the Software, please contact us at "support@lop.com". DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE A THIRD-PARTY UNINSTALLER OR ANTI-SPYWARE PROGRAM, INCLUDING AUTOMATED SCANS AND REMOVAL SWEEPS. The use of a third-party uninstaller or anti-spyware program may damage the Software and/or otherwise constitute a violation of this license.
While you may choose to uninstall the Software from your computer at any time by following these instructions, some third party applications may attempt to delete, disable, or modify the Software with or without notice to you. You agree that you will only uninstall the Software from your computer by following the instructions set forth above and you will not initiate, permit, authorize or assist any third party or application to remove the Software from your computer, or disrupt its operation or the operation of any other user.
5) Acceptance of this Agreement may be indicated by downloading and installing the Software. Bookmarking to a web page whereby this Agreement is by-passed shall constitute an implicit acceptance of the foregoing terms herein set forth for any copies downloaded or installed by such by-pass. You, or any user, may terminate this Agreement at any time, by removing the Software from your computer through any one of the above described methods, and destroying any other copies of the Software.
6) This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the United Kingdom. This Agreement will not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, the application of which is expressly excluded. If any part of this Agreement is found void and unenforceable, the balance of the Agreement shall remain valid and enforceable according to its terms. You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by the laws, restrictions or regulations of the United States or the laws of any other country, which may apply. This Agreement shall automatically terminate upon failure to comply with the terms and conditions and you shall immediately delete and uninstall all copies of the Software upon such termination. This Agreement may only be modified by a writing signed by an authorized officer of CiD.
7) The Software may display advertisements or additional content that contain links to third party websites and such links to third party websites should not imply an endorsement or approval of CiD of the material on such third party websites. These third party websites are not under any control of CiD and CiD is not responsible for the content available on such third party websites. Accessing any such third party websites shall be at your, or the users own risk.
8) The Software is owned by CiD and its Suppliers, and is protected by United States Copyright Law and International Treaty provisions. You agree to not copy, modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or make any other attempt to discover the source code of the Software, CiD's technology and methodology for delivery of additional content, the content of any and all of CiD's and Suppliers communications with the Software, or the content stored on CiD's servers. You will also not rent, lease or sublicense the Software. You also agree to install the Software in a single location on a hard disk or other storage device and will only copy the Software for backup purposes and not for the purpose of using an additional copy. You agree to display all proprietary notices or copyright notices that appear on or in the Software. You agree to not access or use the Software other than through the graphical user interface provided with the Software. You agree to not make any derivative works of the Software and that any and all such modifications or enhancements to the Software are the sole property of CiD or its Suppliers.
9) CiD grants you a non-exclusive, limited license under the terms and conditions of this Agreement to only install and use the most current versions of the Software for the purposes described herein and in the Privacy Policy, including use of the Software only in the manner for which it was designed as provided in any documentation and only for personal and non-commercial purposes. You agree to not allow any use of the Software by any party who has not agreed to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
10) CiD may from time to time, either automatically or through other means, distribute an update to the Software and/or may replace the Software with new versions, and may also modify the Software. CiD may require you to review and accept a new license agreement and CiD's then current privacy policy when a new version of the Software is released and installed on your computer. The installation of new software may occur automatically or through other means. Notwithstanding the foregoing, CiD and its Suppliers and associates have no obligation to make any subsequent versions or updates of the Software available to you.
11) DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS-IS," "WHERE IS," WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND ANY USE OF THE SOFTWARE IS AT YOUR OWN RISK. CiD AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TITLE, ACCURACY, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. CiD AND ITS SUPPLIERS DO NOT AND CANNOT WARRANT THE PERFORMANCE, OR RESULTS YOU MAY OBTAIN BY USING THE SOFTWARE OR DOCUMENTATION, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE CAN BE CORRECTED.
12) LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. BY ACCEPTING THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU WILL RELEASE AND DISCHARGE CiD AND ANY OTHER PROVIDERS, OWNERS, CREATORS, DISTRIBUTORS, SUPPLIERS, BUSINESS ASSOCIATES, ADVERTISERS AND CUSTOMERS ("THE SUPPLIERS") OF THE SOFTWARE FROM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY WHICH MIGHT ARISE. IN NO EVENT SHALL CiD OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY INDIRECT DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOST PROFITS, LOST BUSINESS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, OR LOST OPPORTUNITY, OR ANY INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES INCLUDING LEGAL FEES, ARISING OUT OF THIS AGREEMENT OR CiD'S PRIVACY POLICY OR YOUR INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE, EVEN IF CiD OR ITS SUPPLIERS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, OR FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY THIRD PARTY. CiD AND ITS SUPPLIERS ALSO DISCLAIM ALL LIABILITY WITH REGARD TO YOUR VIEWING OF ANY WEBSITES THAT MAY BE LINKED FROM ANY CiD SUPPLIED MATERIAL OR ANY ADDITIONAL CONTENT PROVIDED BY THE SOFTWARE. SOME STATES AND JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OR THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY MAY LAST, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. IN ANY EVENT, CiD's LIABILITY TO YOU SHALL NOT EXCEED US$10.00.
13) By downloading and installing the Software, you agree to all the terms and conditions of the CiD's current Privacy Policy, attached to this Agreement.
14) During the process of accepting this Agreement, downloading the Software or using the Software, you may be offered the opportunity to download and install software from third party software vendors ("Third Party Software"). Any download or use of Third Party Software shall be governed pursuant to license agreements or other arrangements between such third party vendors and yourself and is subject to different license agreements or other arrangements. CiD, in its sole discretion, may elect to sell, resell, or license any Third Party Software. CiD disclaims any responsibility for or liability related to any Third Party Software associated with the Software. Any questions, complaints, claims or other communications related to Third Party Software should be directed to the appropriate vendor.
PRIVACY POLICY
Your privacy is very important to Circle Developement Ltd. ("CiD"). CiD provides you with the software product (the "Software") free of charge or at a reduced cost in exchange for your agreement to accept advertising and other promotional messages delivered by CiD and third parties to your computer based in part on the keywords in the websites that you or any user of the computer visits. The additional content may include advertisements, promotions, links to third party websites or other materials delivered to your computer that match your interests, based in part on keywords found in the websites that you visit. Your interests are matched to the additional content based on keywords collected from the websites you visit. The keywords are provided to CiD's servers or third party servers, which deliver the selected additional content to your computer in response to the keywords. For example if you visit a website related to travel, CiD or its Suppliers and advertisers may determine the website you are currently visiting is about traveling and present an advertisement that promotes the sale of airline tickets using various browser enhancements and pop-up windows. This Privacy Policy only applies to the Software and not to any additional third party software downloaded in conjunction with the Software or in response to additional content provided to you or a user of the computer.
INFORMATION COLLECTED BY CiD
CiD and the Software DO NOT COLLECT ANY PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE INFORMATION about you, such as your name, address, telephone number or e-mail address. CiD DOES NOT transmit or record the website address (URL) of websites that you visit while you browse the web.
INFORMATION CiD COLLECTS INCLUDES:
Standard web log information and computer settings such as your Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, operating system, CPU speed, browser type and version, screen resolution, time zone selected and the version numbers of some of the software installed on your computer.
Your Software ID is a numeric identifier that is generated by the Software and the Time and Date that you accepted this Agreement and Privacy Policy. This Software ID does not include any personally identifiable information, such as name, age, address, telephone number or e-mail address.
A historical record of content and advertisements delivered by the Software, and the response rate associated with the content and advertisements that was delivered to you through the Software application.
Information provided to any CiD employees, contractors, or technical support members may be stored on CiD servers in archives of CiD's support and customer service department, but such information will not be associated with the information collected or stored in association with your Software ID that may be provided to third parties or the provision of additional content.
While you are browsing Circle Developement owned web sites, as is true of most Web sites, we gather certain information automatically and store it in log files. This information includes internet protocol (IP) addresses, browser type, internet service provider (ISP), referring/exit pages, operating system, date/time stamp, and clickstream data (links you click on the page).
All of the above information submitted to us by your browser or the Software is considered anonymous information and to the extent we share such information with third parties, it is not traceable to any particular user and will not be used to contact you by e-mail, telephone, or mail. We use this information to analyze trends, to administer the site, to track users movements around the site and to gather demographic information about our user base as a whole.
SOFTWARE AUTO-UPDATE
The Software has both client and server-side components. The Software servers communicate with your computer frequently to ensure that you have the most recently released version of the Software. You acknowledge that CiD or parties appointed by CiD may from time to time provide programming fixes, updates and upgrades to you, including automatic updates to the Software, through automatic electronic dissemination and other means. You consent to such automatic updates and agree that this Privacy Policy will apply to all such updates. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, any new features that augment or enhance the Software application, including the release of new Software, shall be subject to terms of this Privacy Policy.
SOFTWARE CONFLICTS
Conflicts may occur with other software applications that may already be installed on your computer. The Software may report back to our servers what applications are running on your computer and this information will be used to help resolve these conflicts whenever possible. This will make the Software more reliable and provide you with products and services that are compatible with your current computer settings. In most cases CiD will only transmit this information back to CiD's servers if a software conflict has been detected. If you are having problems with a software product you have installed you may contact CiD's support department at support@lop.com for help.
WHAT HAPPENS IF CIRCLE DEVELOPEMENT LTD. CHANGES ITS PRIVACY POLICY?
By installing, using, or copying the Software you acknowledge that you have read, understood, given your informed consent to, and agree to be bound by this Privacy Policy. This Privacy Policy is subject to change by CiD at any time. Notice to you shall be made by adding any changes to this Privacy Policy document, which will remain posted at www.lop.com/privacy.html. You agree to review this Privacy Policy from time to time for changes and updates. Notice of any revisions to this Privacy Policy shall be considered effective when transmitted to the Software or posted on http://lop.com/privacy.html .
COOKIES
A cookie is a small file, often containing an anonymous unique identifier. Cookies can be sent to your browser from another computer and stored on your computer's hard drive, or they can be generated by the Software or website and can be stored on your computer. Each server in communication with your computer can store and read only its own cookie. The Software and web pages uses cookies for the following purposes:
To display the most relevant advertising based on your interests and surfing activities.
To identify the affiliate that introduced you to Software, so we know how many introductions that particular affiliate made, and how much to pay that affiliate for the introduction.
To identify which version of the Software is on your computer.
IF YOU WISH TO DISABLE COOKIES IN YOUR WEB BROWSER
In Internet Explorer, on the Tools menu, click Internet Options.
On the Privacy tab, move the slider up for a higher level of privacy.
Select Block all cookies. Cookies from all Web sites will be blocked and Existing cookies on your computer cannot be read by Web sites
SOFTWARE SECURITY MEASURES
The Software uses encrypted data packets to communicate back and forth with its host server. The host server has security measures in place to attempt to prevent the loss, misuse and alteration of the information under our control. All information is for CiD's accounting and registration purposes only. Only employees and affiliates of CiD and its licensor will be authorized to have access to varying degrees of this information.
And here...
Why can't it say:
I am over 18, Install the sponsor program (thank you!)
I refuse to give my support, or are under 18 years old, don't install the sponsor.
And here:
![[Image: mpeulabs0.png]](http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4565/mpeulabs0.png)
There is a back button and a cancel button.
![[Image: mpspeulalx5.png]](http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5136/mpspeulalx5.png)
But here there is not, and many novice computer users may not catch on to the "X" in the corner being the only way to close the dialogue without accepting the sponsor EULA.
Furthermore the You represent and warrant that you are at least 18 years of age text is not highlighted, and it has to be scrolled down to get to it - there should be a more obvious warning for minors.
The Software will deliver popup advertisements on your computer on a regular basis.
No mention though that it will edit your HOSTS file without your permission to allow this if required to continue to serve the pop-ups - the closest you ever get is: this softwares host domain names will be added to your web browsers allowed list for popups this is insufficient.
Because the Software is advertising supported and provides additional content based on keywords in the websites you visit, you agree to provide a copy of CiD's Privacy Policy and this Agreement to any users of this computer and obtain their consent to this Agreement and the Privacy Policy before installation of the Software
Again - although it tells you to - it has no print button, no save eula button... it gives no help to the end user to follow the direction.
Then there's the fact that there is no entry in Add/Remove Programs just for the sponsor - you have to do it from Plus!'s. This is again, insufficient.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE A THIRD-PARTY UNINSTALLER OR ANTI-SPYWARE PROGRAM, INCLUDING AUTOMATED SCANS AND REMOVAL SWEEPS.
The fact that it is incompatible with software recommended by advanced users and system professionals is absolutely terrible.
Acceptance of this Agreement may be indicated by downloading and installing the Software.
I don't think so.
Bookmarking to a web page whereby this Agreement is by-passed shall constitute an implicit acceptance of the foregoing terms herein set forth for any copies downloaded or installed by such by-pass.
I certainly do not think so.
You, or any user, may terminate this Agreement at any time, by removing the Software from your computer through any one of the above described methods, and destroying any other copies of the Software.
There's only one.
This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the United Kingdom.
What utter rubbish, it is governed by the laws in the country in which it is installed. It has no jurisdiction to change this.
Imagine if when you bought a new car "the safety features shall be rated according to the laws of China, where it was made"!
This Agreement will not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, the application of which is expressly excluded.
...
If any part of this Agreement is found void and unenforceable, the balance of the Agreement shall remain valid and enforceable according to its terms.
Wrong again. If a user reads the EULA understanding it have void clauses in it at the time of agreeing to it, the user is in effect agreeing to a void EULA.
You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country or used in any manner prohibited by the laws, restrictions or regulations of the United States
What's this? US law now not UK? And if the program cannot be used in certain countries - the installer should check the user's country.
This Agreement shall automatically terminate upon failure to comply with the terms and conditions
This clause contradicts the previous one:
If any part of this Agreement is found void and unenforceable, the balance of the Agreement shall remain valid and enforceable according to its terms.
Failure to abide by voided clauses according to the EULA itself voids the EULA. I've never seen an EULA with so much crap in it.
This Agreement may only be modified by a writing signed by an authorized officer of CiD.
No, it is modified to comply with applicable laws.
The Software may display advertisements or additional content that contain links to third party websites and such links to third party websites should not imply an endorsement or approval of CiD
I disagree, they are directly responsible for which sites they choose to advertise - and as has been already said, they choose to actively promote 3rd-party Malware.
CiD is not responsible for the content available on such third party websites.
So who is responsible for what "CiD" advertises then, if not CiD?
The Software is owned by CiD and its Suppliers, and is protected by United States Copyright Law
Nice pun, but I clearly remember where it said it was governed by the laws of the UK!
You agree to not copy, modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or make any other attempt to discover the source code of the Software, CiD's technology and methodology for delivery of additional content, the content of any and all of CiD's and Suppliers communications with the Software, or the content stored on CiD's servers.
AGAIN! Clean-room reverse engineering is not a grey area of the law - it's legal. They cannot prohibit this in an EULA.
You agree to display all proprietary notices or copyright notices that appear on or in the Software.
Apparently that makes using the old /SilentInstall switch a breach of the EULA, Patchou.
CiD grants you a non-exclusive, limited license under the terms and conditions of this Agreement to only install and use the most current versions of the Software
And now how do they expect this of users, when users aren't even informed as to which version they're currently installing?
You agree to not allow any use of the Software by any party who has not agreed to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
So why does it install system-wide for ALL users?
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS-IS," "WHERE IS," WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND
It's difficult to believe that disclaimer is legal if they know it's incompatible with leading anti-adware/spyware programs.
By downloading and installing the Software, you agree to all the terms and conditions of the CiD's current Privacy Policy, attached to this Agreement.
Rubbish, the ONLY legal way to agree to all the terms and conditions and the privacy policy is to read it, to understand it and to agree to it.
The sponsor EULA is rubbish.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Phillip on 11-02-2006 at 12:13 PM
I install the sponsor program to support Patchou. I'd rather have a few crappy ads, then fork out $30 for Plus 
Edit: Also I didn't vote because, I encourage people to install the sponsor only if they would like to support something great, but I tell people not to if they don't really know how to use a computer properly.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by foaly on 11-02-2006 at 12:43 PM
The comparisson between smoking, poker machines and the sponsor programm isn't fair...
The sponsor doesn't kill you or get you broke or even addicted in any way or form...
I agree you might accidentely install the sponsor... people tend to click before they read a little to often...
But if you look on this forums or go to the help chat someone will explain how to remove it... (which is quite easy)
And the fact that (almost) nobody reads an eula (you should one time some are very funny 
) is the users fault...
I don't use the sponsor programm... but if people ask me about it... I always say that installing it helps the development...
so in a way I'm encouraging them to install it...
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-02-2006 at 01:21 PM
quote:Smoking doesn't kill you, cancer does. Smoking *may* cause cancer - even if you say LOP.COM is *not* Malware ... they advertise and promote Malware to install!
Originally posted by foaly
The comparisson between smoking, poker machines and the sponsor programm isn't fair...
The sponsor doesn't kill you or get you broke or even addicted in any way or form...
LOP.COM does no one any value or service except for themselves, their clients (like Patchou) and their advertisers. Their software in no way benefits home-users. Smoking has benefits, it reduces stress, it can help you loose weight - there are no benefits at all to the home user from this product. Poker machines can also help with stress when used sensibly. And that is very difficult to say considering I strongly believe poker machines are an immoral source of income.
My hosts file now blocks the bulk of internet ads on websites, including Google Adsense and Bitvertiser. Websites that operate on a basis that they rely on their ads to found them are not going to benefit from users like me who will visit their sites and see no ads. I typically watch recorded Foxtel TV shows and fast-forward through the ads (except of course with sport). Occasionally I'll actually watch an ad - yes that's right I'll deliberately watch an ad for something I may be interested in, especially if it's for a tv program I may like - but the bulk of them I skip.
There are many clear problems with the Sponsor EULA. There is no "I don't accept" checkmark or cancel button on the EULA dialogue itself. And I know you think "well the 'X' button is obvious" - that's not the way novice PC users think, they will be confused and it won't appear to be an obvious way out.
I remove the ads from Windows Live! Messenger too (doesn't everybody?) Ads can be good - but today I see far too many ads, and so I'd rather avoid as many as possible.
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Meksilon on 11-02-2006 at 01:23 PM
quote:Age: 17
Originally posted by Phillip
I install the sponsor program to support Patchou.
Sponsor EULA says:
2) You represent and warrant that you are at least 18 years of age and that you are the owner or are authorized by the owner of this computer to download and install software on this computer. Because the Software is advertising supported and provides additional content based on keywords in the websites you visit, you agree to provide a copy of CiD's Privacy Policy and this Agreement to any users of this computer and obtain their consent to this Agreement and the Privacy Policy before installation of the Software, unless you can legally accept this Agreement on behalf of all other users of this computer.
Patchou: What is your policy regarding this? Is Plus! ever going to check the age of users who install the sponsor?
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by foaly on 11-02-2006 at 01:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Meksilon
Smoking doesn't kill you, cancer does. Smoking *may* cause cancer - even if you say LOP.COM is *not* Malware ... they advertise and promote Malware to install!
LOP.COM does no one any value or service except for themselves, their clients (like Patchou) and their advertisers. Their software in no way benefits home-users. Smoking has benefits, it reduces stress, it can help you loose weight - there are no benefits at all to the home user from this product. Poker machines can also help with stress when used sensibly. And that is very difficult to say considering I strongly believe poker machines are an immoral source of income.
My hosts file now blocks the bulk of internet ads on websites, including Google Adsense and Bitvertiser. Websites that operate on a basis that they rely on their ads to found them are not going to benefit from users like me who will visit their sites and see no ads. I typically watch recorded Foxtel TV shows and fast-forward through the ads (except of course with sport). Occasionally I'll actually watch an ad - yes that's right I'll deliberately watch an ad for something I may be interested in, especially if it's for a tv program I may like - but the bulk of them I skip.
There are many clear problems with the Sponsor EULA. There is no "I don't accept" checkmark or cancel button on the EULA dialogue itself. And I know you think "well the 'X' button is obvious" - that's not the way novice PC users think, they will be confused and it won't appear to be an obvious way out.
I remove the ads from Windows Live! Messenger too (doesn't everybody?) Ads can be good - but today I see far too many ads, and so I'd rather avoid as many as possible.
please don't say you mean this...
the sponsor can provide you with an ad that can save your live..
so in a way it is live saving... the way you argue you can make anything good or bad...
RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by CookieRevised on 11-02-2006 at 02:06 PM
quote:For starters a "trojan" is a term, and a term has a fixed definition. It is not opinion based.... Secondly, the sponsor is not pretending to be something else.
Originally posted by Meksilon
quote:It is a trojan, depending on your definition of the word. Trojans do not have to be harmful - they just have to be a program that pretends its something else.
Originally posted by absorbation
I also feel strongly about adware. I don't think anti-virus companies portray it right. A lot just simple detect it as a trojan, when it is not.
quote:Yes it was. Claiming it was never a stripped down version proofs only your big lack of knowledge about it. And over time it has had more and more features that users found annoying removed (such as the toolbar). So stop pretending you know everything about it.
Originally posted by Meksilon
quote:No it's not.
C2LOP is not the best adware company. But the software Patchou uses is heavily stripped.
Almost everything you say is nothing more than assumptions and your own believes, nothing you say is based upon facts.
quote:Again, how do you know that?... You assume things like you have a magic crystal boll...
Originally posted by Meksilon
Advanced PC users, system professionals - computer technicians and anti-malware groups are writing angry letters all over the internet - and I know that many have written to Patchou's email personally as well. Some probably sent snail-mail as well.
Not to mention "all over the internet"? Excuse me, but what is been written are nothing more than copies of other things with a little of personal biased assumptions from the authors each time that same stuff is copied and copied. I have seen extremely few _real_ facts and _real_ investigations which are _not_ based upon assumptions, biased thoughts, conspiracies and what not. And those very very select few are even written in a style which other highly biased people happily interpret in the wrong way.
Stop assuming stuff, base your things on facts, not on personal believes.
May I note that even in the letter which was written by security MVPs to the MVP leads to revoke Patchou's MVP award because of the sponsor, there were even things which aren't correct and things put in which even didn't had anything todo with Plus! or even Messenger (yes, to the MVPs reading this, I'm talking about the example given in that paper)... All because "to prove their point".
This, just to say that even rewarded respected security MVPs aren't always right, even in their own field of expertise and don't always stick to facts.
Meksilon, if you want to discuss all this I suggest you first learn more about the sponsor, instead of basing your stuff on things you read here and there on the net, and stop drawing your own conclussions. Conclussions which are sometimes so far fetched or unrelated, they belong in a good thriller movie...
Almost everything you've said, word for word, has been handled, discusses and prooven wrong before.
quote:Stop using quotes if you don't understand what it says. Again this wikipedia quote actually proofs you're wrong. The user has given his explicit consent when he ticks the option to install the sponsor. Period. There is absolutely nothing "hidden" in the setup or EULA, unless you're a blind man.
Originally posted by Meksilon
*From Wikipedia: Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent.
quote:yes? like? You would be the first one in years who would come up with an alternative if this was true. So why don't you help the whole internet, and millions of user and enlighten Patchou with it? You would be famous doing it...
Originally posted by Meksilon
The truth is there are other options.
quote:That such a typical lame excuse of an argument/reply when one is asked to actually give a concrete alternative.
Originally posted by Meksilon
Because it's not their job to. It's Patchou's responsibility.
Not only does it suggest you think Patchou did not thought it well over and didn't do research in other alternatives (aka: you calling him greedy/lazy/etc), it also suggest you actually do not know what you're talking about (just like that comparisson with "google ad"'ed sites.
If you can't provide it, stop using it as an argument...
quote:O.o
Originally posted by Meksilon
If all Patchou had was Google ads on every page of his website, they would more than pay for the bandwidth. That is a fact.
Beats me how you know more about the whole costs of the project 'Plus!' than Patchou himself... you must have a crystal boll indeed....
quote:It makes perfect sense... and I never implied you said that.
Originally posted by Meksilon
quote:That makes no sense. I never said Patchou could get wealthy following my advice.
It simply isn't that easy as you let it seem. If it was, everybody would already be a billionair.
If it was so easy to have other alternatives, like you suggested, then many people who use google ads and other means, would already be billionair. The fact is that those alternatives are _not_ sufficient to maintain a project like Plus!. They may be sufficient to pay for a hobbiest's site, or to get him/her a bit of pocket money, but not for something like Plus!.
quote:If he would abondon his income, then yes, Plus! will stop to exist. Patchou needs a living. Again, programming, maintaining and updating Plus! is his job; What he does for living. And it is his choice to keep it free and not ask money for it so everybody can enjoy this tool. Including those who don't have the money to buy such a product. As alternative Patchou offers the choice (note: _choice_) to the user to support him or to use his product without supporting him.
Originally posted by Meksilon
In fact - he would probably have to get a real job and do Plus! as his hobby following my advice.
If Patchou was the mean, selfish guy like some people portraye him to be, there wouldn't be a Plus!Live or even Plus!3 in the first place, there wouldn't be a support forum, he wouldn't personally post on that forum, he wouldn't donate money to charities, etc ...
quote:reread your own post and read what you've said in that post. Consider your post reported... again...
Originally posted by Meksilon
quote:LOL, and where are the files? I tell you what, I'll upload one just for you:
Not only doesn't this have to do with anything sponsor related. It is also against the rules to advertise for such illegal (yes it is 100% illagel what you do) material on this forum and therefore you're post is reported.
quote:???????? So now you're even dictating what somebody else should do for his living? Excuse me?
Originally posted by Meksilon
quote:And Patchou shouldn't depend on Plus! for a living - if it's supposed to be freeware.
The people from sysinternals do not depend on those tools for a living.
And for your information, you should _really_ buy some dictionary or something to look up definiation of terms. Since when can't people make a living out of freeware?????
quote:Again, if you agree upon it you sign it. If you sign it while saying you understand it but without actually understanding you're not only very stupid you're also even lying... you will loose...
Originally posted by Meksilon
No I wouldn't. Signing a contract under false pretences voids at least part of the contract - and in most cases would void the entire contract. Hospitals have a duty of care, and part of that duty of care means that you understand what surgery you're agreeing to.
quote:Time and again you come up with arguments which actually proof the opposite of what you want.
Originally posted by Meksilon
Don't forget the case in England which more than proves I'm right - a woman volunteered to be a test subject for IVF. They then created an embryo, and it died before they implanted it. They realized it had died because it was exposed to air - and then she got so upset about it that she sued them for killing the embryo - she said she did not understand that is what they would do - they did not inform her that it was a possibility that they would cause the death of the embryo ... and she won the case.
Let me spell it out for you: The user _IS_ informed of what the sponsor does. If you're so ignorant to the texts and the EULA in the setup that's your fault.
quote:Sure, if I'm biased then what are you?... At least I try to stick to facts instead of personal believes, my own interpretations of terms, assumptions, loose arguments, hearsay, consiparcy and what not...
Originally posted by Meksilon
You're biased. General users do not feel the same way.
quote:You very clearly show you ae happy to break the rules... Don't come up with such lame replies like SOMI2 hasn't got an EULA therefore it is not illegal or "grey"...
Originally posted by Meksilon
I have no problems with the rules (etc)
As for your other arguments in that post:
1) Even if the the sponsor EULA is agreed upon and the user ticks the checkbox, he can perfectly go back to the beginning of the setup to change his choice when he presses OK.
2) Furthermore the You represent and warrant that you are at least 18 years of age text is not highlighted, and it has to be scrolled down to get to it - there should be a more obvious warning for minors.
plain rubbish tbh, if it was highlighted, then yuo would complain about another thing which must be highlighted/visible at once. If that is also done, you again would complain about another thing. The truth is that the whole EULA is a contract, there are no important or less important parts; they all are important. The first sentence clearly states that you must read it all (again: because it is all important).
3) there is no "The Software will deliver popup advertisements on your computer on a regular basis."
Oh please... Pull of your eyeflaps and read the text right under the "Sponsor" title, which is even before the user has made any choice.
4) about all your "without your permission" arguments: if the user selects the sponsor to be installed and then agrees upon the EULA that _IS_ giving his permission. I dunno what on earth isn't more clear about that (and English isn't even my main language, go figure)...
5) The fact that it is incompatible with software recommended by advanced users and system professionals is absolutely terrible.
It suggest to me that those 3rd party programs are the cause of the trouble. all they need to do is launch the uninstaller or do what the uninstaller does. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to be able to follow those steps and even less of a rocket scientist to be able to run an uninstaller.
Those 3rd party programs are the ones which make it hard.
In fact, it has been suggested and clear how-to's have been given to certain 3rd parties so they could uninstall the sponsor in a perfect way. Yet they don't wanna do it and follow their own crappy methods which abviously will make things even worse.
6) etc.... your contra-arguments are so full of *beep* I don't wanna put any more time in replying to it all... Most of what you come up with has been prooven wrong in the past anyways. It is nothing more than repeating what has already been said...
And as for your arguments against the EULA, they contain of even more rubbish...
*beep* like: The Software is owned by CiD and its Suppliers, and is protected by United States Copyright Law
Nice pun, but I clearly remember where it said it was governed by the laws of the UK!
Learn to read English... "The Software is owned..." and "This Agreement shall be governed by..." Since when is "software" a synonym for "agreement"?
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by Anetten on 11-02-2006 at 11:40 PM
I think your poll should have a fourth option. "I neither encourage nor disencourage people to install the sponsor" - 'cause that's the one most people would choose. Polls like this, that don't give people the most obvious choise, just to make them choose something else, are just stupid.
The sponsor doesn't bother me at all, and it IS a choise, and no matter what anyone says, if people just clicks away and don't bother to read what their agreeing to - well then this is probably the NICEST lesson they will ever learn regarding to installing things without knowing what it is. At least this is removable. And then maybe they would pay a little more attention to what they install in the future, as they should.
You're not stupid because you didn't read it the first time, it was just stupid not to read it. HUGE difference.
RE: Use of the Sponsor program by user27089 on 11-02-2006 at 11:50 PM
I agree with Anetten, the poll is a bit too vague, I think people should install it if they want to, if they don't want it then don't install it. It's their own choice, I don't want to encourage them to do anything.
As you all know, I have no issues with the sponsor or installing it on my computer, the only reason I don't install it is because I have no use for it being there.
RE: RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by LEE123 on 11-03-2006 at 12:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:yes? like? You would be the first one in years who would come up with an alternative if this was true. So why don't you help the whole internet, and millions of user and enlighten Patchou with it? You would be famous doing it...
Originally posted by Meksilon
The truth is there are other options.
Adsense is an easier, cleaner way of allowing users to support Patchou. Anyone can do it without compromising their computer to advertisements. At the end of the day, I use Plus!, I want to support Patchou, but I'm not installing the sponsor.
Considering so many users visit the website, an adsense strip across pages would generate a huge sum of money each month. Hell, my website produces £200 a month and its program has only been downloaded 100,000 times. I see Patchou making a significantly larger amount of money per month.
There are other ways.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Use of the Sponsor program by alexp2_ad on 11-03-2006 at 12:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LEE123
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:yes? like? You would be the first one in years who would come up with an alternative if this was true. So why don't you help the whole internet, and millions of user and enlighten Patchou with it? You would be famous doing it...
Originally posted by Meksilon
The truth is there are other options.
Adsense is an easier, cleaner way of allowing users to support Patchou. Anyone can do it without compromising their computer to advertisements. At the end of the day, I use Plus!, I want to support Patchou, but I'm not installing the sponsor.
Considering so many users visit the website, an adsense strip across pages would generate a huge sum of money each month. Hell, my website produces £200 a month and its program has only been downloaded 100,000 times. I see Patchou making a significantly larger amount of money per month.
There are other ways.
Adsense wouldn't be enough, here's why:
1. Very few people visit the website once they've actually got the program, it's not a YouTube or Digg where the users keep visiting for the content.
2. The bandwidth plus uses is too much to be supported by Adsense alone, with so many people downloading so many sounds when using the sounds feature, it takes a lot of might to keep it going. Might that can't be paid for with that little money.
3. Messenger Plus takes a lot of coding... therefore for it to be as good, it has to be Patchou's full time job. So it has to make enough money for him to live comfortably off it AND pay for all that bandwidth I just mentioned. That needs a lot more than £200 a month... and yes, I know it'd fetch more than that, but not enough more.
I don't like the adware, but I see it's necessity, and you can see Adsense would NOT be enough. Maybe adsense, and text links / other adverts in plus menus and preferences, could that fetch enough? And would people even prefer enforced ads in program to optional ads???