After watching american dad... this question came to mind.... whats your view?

Born that way.  If you're straight, could you happily choose to be gay and have sex with the same gender?  If you're gay, could you happily choose to be straight and have sex with the other gender?  No, therefore: born that way.  (Or possibly a combination of factors while growing up, but not a conscious choice)

Why isn't there an option, "Does it really matter?"

Sounds weird to choose. It's just like that. You can't just change the way your body reacts. Therefore, born as it.

Born gay, in my opinion.

It's a common mistake to think people can choose, because they confuse "choosing to be gay" with "choosing to be with a gay", which is an entirely different matter. One thing is to experiment and another thing is to invest feelings in a relationship.

I can't imagine how your sexual preferences can be determined while you're still in the womb... O_o

There are gay babies?

You could inherit being gay from your parents ...

Oh wait, you can't

(Not my point just a joke)

I don't think it's about the genes.

I read somewhere that it's actually during the hormone waves the baby goes through in the womb. The ones that determine what sex we'll have and how our brain will react to it.

It is thought that sometimes the hormone "waves" don't correspond. Thus, the person grows up with different preferences or behavior than the biological sex. Other times both sexes develop (intersex people).

Depending on how strong the waves are, the person will be straight, man, woman, intersex, gay, transexual, etc.

I think the theory went like that.

I don't think its either, it can't be genetic because the gay gene wouldn't be passed on. However, I don't think people choose to be gay.

Its probably a nurture thing, with the surrounding people are brought up in, not things like being forced to gay porn every day, but very suttle things.

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Originally posted by saralk
Its probably a nurture thing, with the surrounding people are brought up in, not things like being forced to gay porn every day, but very suttle things.

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Originally posted by John Anderton
Why isn't there an option, "Does it really matter?"

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Through a vast range of numerous different factors, a person can end up living a life of which he/she prefers to be attracted and have relationships which people of the same sex. These factors can be down to ...

1. The upbringing- If a child has homophobic parents then the child would find it hard and often resist any feelings he/she may have to a person of the opposite sex. If the childs parents has gay friends and is openly positive towards any homosexual people. The child would find it easier to handle any homormones that would produce homosexual feelings.

2.Genes- It is true that the cromozones within the gene structure can often alter the behaviour and feelings of the child. Although this is often only a small factor of turning out to be a homosexual.

3.Experiences- *Most people* throughough their lives will have had some homosexual thought or experience, it is just how you react to these feelings or experiences that will ultimately result in the hetro/homo sexuality of the person. If a person completely ignores the feelings they may be having towards a person of the same sex, this can just pass by but if somone takes action on these thoughts and say has a homosexual encounter.. And enjoys it.. This can be gay enforcement to their hormones.

I believe no person can be born gay, people can be born with more homosexual orianted hormones within their body, but through different situations throughout their life, this would ultimately determin whether or not the person would turn out to be gay.

Well that is basically what i think.

P.S i am not gay.
P.P.S i have nothing against gays.

copy pasting is lame.
homos are homos.

In between.

You can be gay when you're born, but you can choose to show your 'gayness', and be a heterosexual with babies...might be harder though...

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Originally posted by Voldemort
copy pasting is lame.
homos are homos.

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Its like the way you grew up, and the environment, i dont think you could be borned with it, thats the point imo

Maybe also the treatment you got in your childhood (i had read about people violated or aislated that then became gay

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Originally posted by WDZ
I can't imagine how your sexual preferences can be determined while you're still in the womb... O_o

There are gay babies?

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Originally posted by saralk
I don't think its either, it can't be genetic because the gay gene wouldn't be passed on. However, I don't think people choose to be gay.

Its probably a nurture thing, with the surrounding people are brought up in, not things like being forced to gay porn every day, but very suttle things.

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I think... Very few people are born gay, and I'd put that down to something like what Mr. Riddle () was saying to do with the hormone "waves". I think other gay people make that choice because of how they are influenced, be it by adults, or friends, or whatever, whether they think it's "cool" or something, and it can happen anytime in life, so I suppose I believe that, in a way, some gay people do have a choice. Sometimes I'd even reckon people simply say it to be different or whatever. I'm not a homophobe, it just irks me how it seems so many people are that way nowadays, and I don't believe that very many of them were truely born that way.

Meh. Just my opinion.

I got a question for you. When I look at guys (I'm not gay!!) and think 'wow he's cute' just because I want to think like my GF. Just to see what could please her or what not (you got me), am I gay then?? Or sometimes I look at guys to see who's nicer guys or gals. And ( I don't want to sound arrogant) in my country the guys are the sexeh . Anyways, sometimes I have my fancies with guys ... Anyways. If you had been 'verarscht' (translate yourself) by girls that many times like me then you would think other... And stuff... WTF @ that thread? YTF am I replying????

traxor is gay..


I know that much.

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Originally posted by Stigmata
traxor is gay..


I know that much.

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Originally posted by saralk
I don't think its either, it can't be genetic because the gay gene wouldn't be passed on.

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Originally posted by andrewdodd13
he was "sleeping" with girls when we were 13. And smoking weed. And drinking.

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Originally posted by saralk
Its probably a nurture thing, with the surrounding people are brought up in, not things like being forced to gay porn every day, but very suttle things.

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Originally posted by Dazmatic

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Originally posted by flanders56
i sware i didnt copy and paste ANY of this honestly my mum is a councillor and she has to deal with this sort of thing so she tells me about it and ive asked her this same questions before about if som1 can be born gay or not .. but really i didnt copy and paste this

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You can tell, you type in fuckwit and that was in pure English, no spelling mistakes.

I really think it is up to the person to choose to be gay or not, no one can be born gay, i think thats impossible. plus i know someone who was straigt and now they are gay..

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Originally posted by ins4ne
I got a question for you. When I look at guys (I'm not gay!!) and think 'wow he's cute' just because I want to think like my GF. Just to see what could please her or what not (you got me), am I gay then?? Or sometimes I look at guys to see who's nicer guys or gals. And ( I don't want to sound arrogant) in my country the guys are the sexeh . Anyways, sometimes I have my fancies with guys ... Anyways. If you had been 'verarscht' (translate yourself) by girls that many times like me then you would think other... And stuff... WTF @ that thread? YTF am I replying????

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Originally posted by andrewdodd13

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Originally posted by saralk
I don't think its either, it can't be genetic because the gay gene wouldn't be passed on.

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In today's day and age, that's not true.

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Originally posted by flanders56
I type in fuckwit.

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Its got nothing to do with genes or genetics...unless nature intended us not to replicate and to die out as a species.

It is a persons choice; and while it may be influenced by childhood and enviroment, its still his choice.

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Originally posted by flanders56

2.Genes- It is true that the cromozones within the gene structure can often alter the behaviour and feelings of the child. Although this is often only a small factor of turning out to be a homosexual.

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Originally posted by flanders56
i sware i didnt copy and paste ANY of this honestly my mum is a councillor and she has to deal with this sort of thing so she tells me about it and ive asked her this same questions before about if som1 can be born gay or not (Smilie).. but really i didnt copy and paste this

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Originally posted by .Norma
Its got nothing to do with genes or genetics...unless nature intended us not to replicate and to die out as a species.
It is a persons choice; and while it may be influenced by childhood and enviroment, its still his choice.

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Originally posted by ins4ne
Anyways, sometimes I have my fancies with guys (Smilie)

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Originally posted by flanders56
Through a vast range of numerous different factors, a person can end up living a life of which he/she prefers to be attracted and have relationships which people of the same sex. These factors can be down to ...

1. The upbringing- If a child has homophobic parents then the child would find it hard and often resist any feelings he/she may have to a person of the opposite sex. If the childs parents has gay friends and is openly positive towards any homosexual people. The child would find it easier to handle any homormones that would produce homosexual feelings.

2.Genes- It is true that the cromozones within the gene structure can often alter the behaviour and feelings of the child. Although this is often only a small factor of turning out to be a homosexual.

3.Experiences- *Most people* throughough their lives will have had some homosexual thought or experience, it is just how you react to these feelings or experiences that will ultimately result in the hetro/homo sexuality of the person. If a person completely ignores the feelings they may be having towards a person of the same sex, this can just pass by but if somone takes action on these thoughts and say has a homosexual encounter.. And enjoys it.. This can be gay enforcement to their hormones.

I believe no person can be born gay, people can be born with more homosexual orianted hormones within their body, but through different situations throughout their life, this would ultimately determin whether or not the person would turn out to be gay.

Well that is basically what i think.

P.S i am not gay.
P.P.S i have nothing against gays.

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I believe it to be an unconscious choice for a person to be gay. Just like every thing in life, it's your choice whether you like it or not, this works the same way. It's a choice that you do not realize you are making, but you make anyway. If this is true, it would make sense to say that certain people adapt to everything, and are therefore bisexual. If it is a person's choice, then it is perfectly normal for it to happen.

Apparently, 10% of the human population is gay or bisexual (gay can be for males and females btw.).

Turns out that the 10% fact is false, according to wikipedia. See here.

Unfortunately, in modern society, being gay or bisexual isn't quite accepted yet. A discussion like this could very well lead to arguments of whether it is O.K to talk about this or not.

Wikipedia ain't 100% y'know.

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Originally posted by flanders56

2.Genes- It is true that the cromozones within the gene structure can often alter the behaviour and feelings of the child. Although this is often only a small factor of turning out to be a homosexual.

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Originally posted by vaccination

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Originally posted by flanders56

2.Genes- It is true that the cromozones within the gene structure can often alter the behaviour and feelings of the child. Although this is often only a small factor of turning out to be a homosexual.

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Chromosomes*

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[OFF TOPIC]

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Originally posted by MC Inferno
Wikipedia ain't 100% y'know.

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I think it is a subconscious thought that is developed after birth. Someone will know if they are gay, once they are introduced to it's nature. Can someone be gay if they dont know what being gay is? Not that I know what i'm talking about, just a thought. Iy shouldnt matter anyways, equality shouldnt involve people being categorized.

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Originally posted by Dazmatic
I really think it is up to the person to choose to be gay or not, no one can be born gay, i think thats impossible. plus i know someone who was straigt and now they are gay..

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Nah you can be gay and just know it till later on life.

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Originally posted by MC Inferno
Nah you can be gay and just not know it till later on in life.

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Originally posted by linx05

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Originally posted by Dazmatic
I really think it is up to the person to choose to be gay or not, no one can be born gay, i think thats impossible. plus i know someone who was straigt and now they are gay..

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Case closed everyone. I think Dazmatic here just proved that you aren't born gay.

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saralk's statement is true. There's no such thing as a gay gene.
That's what scientists agree on, and I agree on saralk's post.

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:/ it's hard to put across sarcasm on the net. For everyone now on in, my post was just sarcasm at Dazmatic.

I do not feel it is possible to choose your orientation. In my personal opinion, the concept is ridiculous -- ludicrous, even. How can people choose the fact that they are attracted to a certain gender (or both, but that isn't the point)?

People do not have a say toward the people they might fall in love with, nor their orientation; it's the same thing. Your orientation is something you are born with. It is impossible to decide that you would like to be interested in and fall in love with others of the same gender... Love isn't something you decide on, it is something that decides for itself.

Why would anyone choose to be gay? To be bashed at, laughed at, getting beaten up by low life figures?

It's not a choose! You are gay or you are not! You can't become one if you want, or otherwise.

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Originally posted by speedy_kevin
Why would anyone choose to be gay?

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This is an interesting topic to pop up in General Chit Chat.

Well speaking from the other side of the pool, namely, bisexuality, I can say it isn't a choice, and I should say I don't take offense to people claiming it to be a choice, however, when they compare it to something as lowly as trend setting and cutting of the arms, I do take offense, much of it. I didn't expect to see something so outright ignorant like that outside of, oh, the Ukraine. Sheesh? I'm going to go with Sheesh, Tom.

I think it's largely shaped by a person's experiences, and I don't think it can be changed, I think people can lie to themselves long enough for the dream of normality, but eventually they come around, which is the case with older men who have been married for possibly decades suddenly "turning" gay, in my opinion.

I feel that people are "Gay" to a certain extent, I don't mean being attracted to the same sex of course, I mean something along the lines of finding features about the same sex themselves attractive, to even somewhat appealing in a non-sexual way. Though I also believe some people are indeed bound to be "gay" from birth, I know of a few people who fall into that category, and have shown near-stereotypical signs of it from a very young age.

I suppose, for most anyhow, it depends largely on their environment and family, their upbringing, but I disagree that this is the only source of homosexuality.

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Originally posted by WDZ

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Originally posted by MC Inferno
Nah you can be gay and just not know it till later on in life.

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(Corrected quote to what I assume you meant)

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Originally posted by WDZ

If nobody* knows you're gay, then you're probably not gay. O_o

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Originally posted by .Norma

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Originally posted by speedy_kevin
Why would anyone choose to be gay?

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Because they think they like guys more then girls and are willing to accept the downside of it.

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First, I think we have to define 'gay'. Is it a person who has a sexual relationship with the same sex or a person who is interested in girly things.

You are surely not born to be gay who has a sexual relationship with the same sex, you evolve into having an interest towards the same sex over time.  You are born though, as a person who likes girly things.

I don't know if you understood what I just said now. This is just a summary of my thought about this subject. I felt I needed not to even talk about this thoroughly as it doesn't even need discussion as there is nothing wrong with being gay. If a person feel comfortable being this then why the hell not? Why do psychologists even need to investigate this matter. I think that is just not needed at all.

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Originally posted by Revrant
Well speaking from the other side of the pool, namely, bisexuality, I can say it isn't a choice, and I should say I don't take offense to people claiming it to be a choice, however, when they compare it to something as lowly as trend setting and cutting of the arms, I do take offense, much of it. I didn't expect to see something so outright ignorant like that outside of, oh, the Ukraine. Sheesh? I'm going to go with Sheesh, Tom.

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So you're sticking by the basis of that rude and ignorant example? Good move. Alright, no grievances there, one has the right to believe it's something like "over analyzing" one's "feelings", akin to cutting of the wrists and defying trendiness, I'm sure that's the basis of it, "choosing", by golly I wouldn't be surprised if you "chose" your defects from birth or if you "chose" your parents.

It's all a matter of will.

Moving on

Sik: That's definitely the most interesting theory I've seen so far, people are referring to homosexuality, and well, to be fair, one develops an interest in the opposite sex over time too, leading us to the middle ground, human asexuality.

It is a persons choice to be gay
A person is born gay

what f it is neither?

what if it's their enviroment, say they were sexually abused as a child making them gay .. it's not their choice and they werent born with it.

* WDZ thinks M73A should add a new "It's their environment/upbringing" option to the poll...

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Originally posted by WDZ
* WDZ thinks M73A should add a new "It's their environment/upbringing" option to the poll...

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Originally posted by Weyzza

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Originally posted by WDZ
* WDZ thinks M73A should add a new "It's their environment/upbringing" option to the poll...

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* Weyzza votes that option.

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Originally posted by WDZ
* WDZ thinks M73A should add a new "It's their environment/upbringing" option to the poll...

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I don't think you're born gay, nor is it a result of how you are raised. It's a matter of what your hormones are like, if you're attracted to the same sex, you are, if you arn't you arnt. If you're attracted to both, you're attracted to both.

I won't even get into if we "choose" to be gay. That's like asking do African American's "choose" to be black.

I agree with wdz, you can't be born gay, it just doesn't make any sense. When you're born you have that innocence and you're unaware of anything sexual, including your preferences toward men or women. My sister is gay, and she slowly turned gay after liking men less and less.

I don't think you're gay straight away, you become aware that you're gay once you experiment with people etc. It's all dependant on who you grew up with, I'm sure that if you grew up in an entirely gay community (somehow?) that you'd be inclined to be gay, or be completely not gay, just not homophobic at all.

If you're surrounded by gay people, would you really want to conform or find out what's going on in the outside world? Not sure, but you know.

I don't want to act like an expert on this though, being gay is a life choice it's not something you're born with, the only thing you're born with are different schemas, such as the "sucking reflex" which is for babies who need feeding etc.

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Originally posted by traxor
I agree with wdz, you can't be born gay, it just doesn't make any sense. When you're born you have that innocence and you're unaware of anything sexual, including your preferences toward men or women.

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Originally posted by alexp2_ad
I disagree, I read an article that said the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to be gay.  They suggested that this was because the mother's woman became more adpet at fighting off the testosterone for male development, so if the child became a boy he would exhibit more feminine tendencies than might be expected.

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Originally posted by traxor

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Originally posted by alexp2_ad
I disagree, I read an article that said the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to be gay.  They suggested that this was because the mother's woman became more adpet at fighting off the testosterone for male development, so if the child became a boy he would exhibit more feminine tendencies than might be expected.

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Can you direct me to this article please?

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Originally posted by alexp2_ad
Originally posted by traxor

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Originally posted by alexp2_ad
I disagree, I read an article that said the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to be gay.  They suggested that this was because the mother's woman became more adpet at fighting off the testosterone for male development, so if the child became a boy he would exhibit more feminine tendencies than might be expected.

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i wouldnt take stuff like that litteral, i'm pretty sure scienetist can proove anything theese days with research over a large scale such as people who like nuts [food ] are more likely to be gay etc.

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Originally posted by Fuse101
i wouldnt take stuff like that litteral, i'm pretty sure scienetist can proove anything theese days with research over a large scale such as people who like nuts [food ] are more likely to be gay etc.

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there bron gay.
trust me

are you gay?

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Originally posted by xxhannahxx
there born gay.
trust me

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Originally posted by EnglandBoyForLife.

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Originally posted by xxhannahxx
there born gay.
trust me

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How can someone be born gay?
Its there choice.
I knew people who were straight but then they chose to be gay.

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i dont think you chose to be gay, but you arent born with it either.

something that happens during your up bringing.

oh and dont just say 'trust me' , bring some points to support your idea - im not saying your wrong but 'trust me' hasnt convinced me

I don't think its an issue to have a poll on. Being "gay" isn't a thing to debate about, its just the way people are, wether there born that way or choose to be, some people are gay all there life and some suddenly wake up one day and find a person of the same person absolutley beautiful and decide theyre gay. Either way, who cares

Gays, Lesbians and Transsexuals - Research shows that the basic template for the body and brain of a human foetus is female in its structure. As a result men have some redundant female features such as nipples. Men also have mammary glands which do not function but retain the potential to produce milk. There are thousands of recorded cases of lactation in male prisoners of war where starvation led to a diseased liver failing to break down the hormones essential for breast-feeding.

As we now know, six to eight weeks after conception, a male foetus (XY) receives a massive dose of male hormones called androgens which first forms the testes, and then a second dose to alter the brain from a female format to a male configuration. If the male foetus does not receive enough male hormone at the appropriate time, one of two things may happen. Firstly, a baby boy may be born with a brain structure that is more feminine than masculine, in other words, a boy who will most likely be gay by puberty. Secondly, a genetic boy may be born with a fully functioning female brain and a set of male genitals. This person will be transgender.
This is a person who is biologically male but feeling as if he is a female. Sometimes a genetic male is born with a set of both male and female genitals. Geneticist Anne Moir in her ground-breaking book Brainsex documents the many cases of genetic boys being born looking like girls and being raised as girls, only suddenly to find that they have penis and testicles that 'appear' at puberty.
This genetic oddity was discovered in the Dominican Republic and a study with the parents of these 'girls' shows that their parents typically raised them as girls and encouraged stereotypical behaviours such as feminine dress and playing with dolls. Many of these parents were then shocked to discover that they'd ended up with a fully fledged son at puberty when male hormones took over and their 'daughters' suddenly had a penis and reverted to male appearance and typical male behaviour patterns. This change occurred despite all the social conditioning and social pressures for female behaviour.
The fact that most of these 'girls' successfully lived the rest of their lives as males highlights the point that their social environment and upbringing had a limited impact on their adult lives. Clearly, their biology was the key factor in creating their behavioural patterns.

Homosexuality is Part of History - Among the ancient Greeks, homosexuality was not only permitted, it was highly respected. The slim, boyish, youthful figure was their ideal of beauty, and paintings and statues were erected in its honour. Poems were written about the love that prominent older men had for young men. The Greeks believed that male homosexuality served a noble, higher purpose and it inspired youths to become worthy members of the community. They also found that young gay men proved to be some of their most courageous, successful warriors as they would fight 'side-by-side in love with each other'. In Roman times, Julius Caesar was described as 'every woman's man and every man's woman.' When Christianity frowned on same-$€X relationships and God reportedly brought his vengeance down on the City of Sodom, homosexuality was banned, disappeared into the closet and wasn't seen in public again until recently. The Victorian era refused to acknowledge that homosexuality existed and, even if it did, it must be the Devil's work and would be severely punished. As we enter the 21st Century, most older generations still believe that homosexuality is a recent phenomenon and an 'unnatural' act. The reality is that it has been around for as long as male foetuses missed out on their sufficient share of male hormones. Amongst primates, homosexual behaviour is used as a way of bonding members of a group or as a form of showing submis201 sion to a superior, as is also the case with cattle, cocks and dogs. Lesbianism gained its name from the Greek island of Lesbos. It has never been looked upon with the same contempt as male homosexuality, probably because it is associated more with intimacy, and not labelled so much a 'perversion'. Is it Genetic or a Choice? When Body Language author Allan Pease and geneticist Anne Moir appeared together on British television in 1991 for the launch of their books Brainsex (Mandarin Books) and Talk Language (HarperCollins), Moir revealed the results of her research which highlighted what scientists have known for years - homosexuality is inborn, not a choice. Not only is homosexuality mostly inborn, but the environment in which we are raised plays a lesser role in our behaviour than was previously thought. Scientists have found that as an adolescent or adult, parents' efforts to suppress homosexual tendencies in their off-spring has practically no effect. And because the impact of male hormone (or lack of it) on the brain is the main culprit, most homosexuals are males. There is no solid evidence that upbringing affects the likelihood of a child becoming homosexual. For every lesbian (female body with a masculinised brain) there are about eight to ten gay men. If the gay and lesbian movement was to embrace this research and, if the education system taught these findings, homosexual and transsexual people would not encounter as much prejudice. Most people are more tolerant and accepting of a person who has inborn differences than they are of a person who, in their opinion, makes an unacceptable choice. Take, for example, Thalidomide babies, Parkinson's sufferers, autism or people who have cerebral palsy. The public is more accepting of these people because they are usually born with these conditions, as opposed to homosexuals who supposedly choose their lifestyle. Can we be critical of a person who is born lefthanded or dyslexic? Or with blue eyes and red hair? Or with a female brain in a male body? Most homosexual people believe that their homosexuality is a choice and, like many minority groups, often use public forums to display their 'choice', which generates negative attitudes from many members of the public. He was a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac. He'd lie awake all night wondering if there really was a dog. Sadly, statistics show that over 30% of teenage suicides are committed by gays and lesbians, and that one out of every three transgenders commits suicide. It seems that the realisation of being stuck in the 'wrong body' for the rest of their lives is too much for them. A study into the upbringing of these homosexual teenagers has shown that most were raised in families or communities that taught hatred and rejection towards homosexuals, or in religions that had tried to save some of the 'victims' with prayer or therapy.

Why People Look to the Father - When a boy turns out to be gay, the father may often be blamed. Family members claim that he criticised the son for not being involved with, or competent at, male pursuits as he grew up. This theory holds that the boy rebelled against the father and became gay to spite him, but there is no scientific evidence to support this view. The likely explanation is that the boy was more interested in female pursuits rather than football, motorcycle racing, cars or boxing matches. This would have been a constant source of annoyance for a father with high expectations of his son's male development. In other words, the son's effeminate tendencies are more likely to have contributed to the father's critical or aggressive attitude than vice versa. Red hair and freckles has the same occurrence as homosexuality. If the public understood that scientific evidence shows that most, if not all homosexuality is inborn, there would be as much interest in a gay rally as there would be in a rally for people with red hair and freckles, a genetic combination that occurs at the same rate as homosexuality. The public would be more accepting of homosexuality and gays and lesbians would not have as many problems with self-esteem, and would be treated with more dignity, and far less rejection and ridicule. Ignorance on both sides keeps both apart.

Can the 'Choice' Be Changed? - Gays and lesbians do not choose their sexual orientation any more than heterosexuals do. Scientists and most human sexuality experts agree that homosexuality is an orientation that is unchangeable. Researchers believe that most homosexual orientation develops in the womb, that homosexual patterns are firmly fixed by around age five and that it is outside the control of the person. For centuries, techniques have been used to suppress homosexual feelings in 'sufferers' which have included breast amputation, castration, drug therapy, uterus removal, frontal lobotomy, psychotherapy, electric shock therapy, prayer meetings, spiritual counselling and exorcism. No therapies have ever succeeded. The best they have been able to achieve is to make some bisexuals confine their sexual activities to members of the opposite $€X or force some homosexuals to become celibate through guilt or fear, and to push many others to suicide. Scientists have shown that homosexuality is an orientation that is unalterable. It's not a choice. There is a greater than 90% chance that you, the reader, are heterosexual. Think about how difficult it would be to feel sexually attracted to someone of your own $€X and you will begin to understand how it is virtually impossible to create feelings that do not already exist. If it was a choice, as many proclaim, why would any intelligent person choose a way of life that exposes them to so much hostility, prejudice and discrimination? Hormones are responsible, not human choices.

The Case of Identical Gay Twins - Extensive research has been carried out on identical twins who were separated at birth and raised in different families and environments. Numerous tests have been conducted to reliably establish whether certain human traits are genetic or determined by social conditioning. This type of research shows that many human traits are genetically inherited, including neuroticism, depression, introversion/extroversion levels, dominance, a facility for sport and the age of first sexual activity. Assuming that around five percent of the male population is gay, if you analysed 100 gay identical male twins who had been separated from their twin at birth then you would expect that around five percent of the other twins would also be gay, based on the assumption that homosexuality is a choice. Various research groups who studied this question have all come up with the same answer. That answer has been demonstrated by American researchers Dr Richard Pillard of Boston University and psychologist Michael Bailey of North Western University who studied the sexual orientation of sibling boys raised together. Their conclusions were: The chance of sibling homosexuality is: • 22% for non-identical twins • 10% for non-twin or adopted brothers • 52% for identical twins who share the same genes The collective research into the gay identical twins who were separated at birth, reveals that over 50% of the lost twin brothers were also gay. Of these, the researchers generally agreed it was likely that 10%-20% of the twins who claimed to be heterosexual were probably homosexuals who were too deep inside the closet to admit it, or bisexuals who chose to describe themselves as heterosexual. This brings the real percentage of gay twins with identical genetic make-up to between 60%-70%, or two out of three, proving convincingly that most homosexuality is created in the womb. It also confirms that upbringing has little, if any, impact on sexual orientation. It's in their Genes Based on the theory that gayness is created in the womb, you would expect that all identical gay twins would also be gay, so why is this not the case with the other 30%-40% of the gay twin brothers? Genes have a property called 'penetrance' which is a measure of the gene's power to become effective, and determines how likely that gene is to be switched on and become a dominant gene. For example, the variety of gene that causes Huntington's disease is 100% penetrant, whereas the gene that causes Type One diabetes is only 30% penetrant. This means that if identical twins each have both the Huntington's gene and the diabetes gene, each has a 100% chance of developing Huntington's disease but only a 30% chance of developing diabetes. Those carrying the 'gay gene' as it is now called, have a 50%-70% chance of becoming gay and this theory explains why all the identical twins brothers were not gay. It is estimated that about 10% of all males carry the 'gay gene' and about half these males will become gay due to the 50%-70% penetrance factor of the gene. Laboratory experiments with rats and monkeys have proved that this sequence of events also happens in other species. While performing these types of sexaltering experiments on humans is illegal, and consid207 ered to be ethically wrong, we are aware that these have been successfully conducted in Russia with the same conclusive results. The 'Gay Gene' Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute in the USA compared the DNA of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers and discovered that 33 had the same genetic markers in the X928 region of the X chromosome, which has been determined to be the approximate location of the gay gene. He also compared the DNA of 36 pairs of lesbian sisters but no corresponding pattern was found. This study further shows that not only is homosexuality mainly a condition affecting males but it is almost certainly genetic. The likelihood of the gene becoming penetrant appears to be largely dependent on the presence of the testosterone hormone six to eight weeks after conception. In addition, there is a small chance that other factors, including social conditioning, may activate the gene in early life, usually before age five. Gay Fingerprints and Family Studies In 1998, Canadian brain research pioneer Dr Doreen Kimura reported that she had conducted a study of the number of ridges between two specific points on a person's fingerprints. She discovered that people with high ridge counts on the left hand are better at 'feminine' tasks. She found that most men have more ridges on their right hands, but that, on average, women and homosexual men are likely to have more ridges on their left hands.

Fingerprint ridge counts - Another study of gay men by the National Cancer Institute has shown that homosexuality runs in families. Data collected on the genetic family members of 114 gay men shows there is a three times greater than average chance that gay men's brothers, uncles, cousins or parents were also gay. Most of the gay male family members were on the mother's side of the family and fewer were on the father's side. This can only be caused genetically, and it indicates that there is a special gene somewhere on the X chromosome. This chromosome is the only one a mother can provide (she has two Xs), further demonstrating the genetic transferability of male homosexuality. Experimental Changes Rats are a favourite for scientific research. They have hormones, genes and a central nervous system like humans, but their brains do not develop in the womb like a human's - they develop after birth which allows us to see what's going on. Castrate a male rat and he thinks he's a she and becomes a social, nest-building rat. Give testosterone hormones to a newborn female rat and she thinks she's a he, becomes aggressive and tries to mount other female rats. Some female birds, such as canaries, can't sing but if they are injected at a young age with testosterone, they can sing like a male. This is because testosterone affects the wiring of their brain and therefore their abilities. To achieve this $€X-changing result the brain must be altered when it is in an embryonic state. Similar tests on adult rats, birds and monkeys failed to produce such dramatic results because the brain is 'set' during the embryonic stage. For humans the brain is 'set' six to eight weeks after conception. It means that older rats won't change much and neither will older humans. During a seminar tour of Russia, we met a professor of brain surgery from a local university who disclosed to us that secret brain-altering experiments had been carried out in Russia on humans for some time and that their results were the same as with the rats - they had changed boys into girls and girls into boys by altering their brains in the womb with male hormone. They created their own gay, lesbian and transsexual people. He also reported that there had been occasions where the foetus was not given enough male hormone or was given the hormones at the wrong time of its development. One result was a baby boy with two sets of genitals - a male set and a female set. This genetic accident also occurs from time to time in nature (as it has done in the Dominican Republic) and explains how a baby is born looking like a girl and then suddenly becomes a boy at adolescence. This research shows what scientists know but are not willing to discuss - that, by controlling the $€X of the brain with hormones, the sexuality of a foetus can be determined before birth with an injection of a needle at the right time. This would, however, and quite understandably so, raise obvious moral, ethical and humane questions.

It's What Happens in the Womb - If, during the early stages of pregnancy, testosterone is suppressed and the foetus is male, the chance of giving birth to a gay boy dramatically increases because female hormones become the hormones used to configure the brain. One German study in the 1970s showed that mothers who suffered severe stress during early pregnancy had six times the chance of giving birth to a gay son. Research by Professor Lee Ellis of the Department of Sociology at Minot State University in North Dakota also showed that stressed pregnancies equal gay babies. If the foetus is a girl, a baby daughter may become super-feminine and will probably have poor spatial ability. In other words, she's very mothering and nurturing but can't reverse park or find North. Brian Gladue of North Dakota State University has shown that heterosexual men have better spatial skills than homosexual men, and lesbians have better spatial skills than heterosexual women. Why? More male hormone was involved in the wiring of their brains. So what suppresses testosterone? The main factors are stress, sickness and some medications. We have known for some time about the dangerous effects of alcohol and nicotine on the unborn baby and of the positive effects of the right diet and stress-free living. New research by experts such as Dr Vivette Glover at London's Chelsea Hospital shows that pregnant women who suffer stress give birth to babies who are also unable to deal with stressful situations. Dr Glenn Wilson of the Institute of Psychiatry in London has also studied this area extensively. He concluded, 'Certain chemical drugs can interfere with testosterone function and the result can be the birth of a gay baby.' If the foetus is a genetic girl (XX) and the brain is dosed in male hormone, the result is a female body with male brain circuitry. As children, these girls are usually called 'tomboys' and they play rougher and harder than their female peers. They are likely to grow more body and facial hair than other girls at puberty, they are better at hand-eye and ball skills and as adults are sometimes described as 'butch'. A high percentage become lesbians. Accidental dosing of male hormones can occur if the pregnant mother is taking certain medications that contain high levels of male hormones, like some contraceptive pills, diabetic drugs and other medications. One study of diabetic women who were pregnant during the 1950s and '60s shows a high ratio of baby girls who became lesbians after adolescence because their brains received too much male hormone from the diabetic drug at the critical period of brain development of the foetus. Similarly, another study showed that women of the same era who received female hormones such as oestrogen in the belief that it would help pregnancy had a five to ten times greater chance of giving birth to a gay baby boy. It's not until adolescence that the brain circuitry is switched on by the massive surge of hormones that race through a teenager's body and the real sexuality of the teenager becomes apparent. Echoing these findings, researchers at the Kinsey Institute in America found that mothers who had taken male hormones during pregnancy had daughters who were described as having high levels of self-reliance, self-assertiveness and were likely to be involved in aggressive sports such as kickboxing or football. As children, many were described as 'tomboys'. Mothers who had taken female hormones had more daughters who were described as more 'feminine' and sons who were softer and gentler than their peers, were more dependent on others and were not physically active.

The Transsexual Brain - Transsexuals feel from early childhood that they were born in the wrong-$€X body. The area in the brain essential for sexual behaviour is called the hypothalamus and this area is markedly smaller in women than in men. Researcher Dick Swaab and his team from the Netherlands Institute for Brain Research were the first in 1995 to show that the hypothalamus in male transsexuals was female-sized or smaller. This further confirms research showing that gender identity stems from an interaction between the developing brain and $€X hormones. This theory was first proposed by German scientist Dr Gunther Dorner who found that the hypothalamus of homosexual men responded in the exact same way as a female hypothalamus when injected with female hormone. Swaab reported, 'Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals.' In other words, it's a woman's brain trapped in a man's body. The psychiatric label for a transgender person is that they are suffering Gender Identity Disorder and around 20% of these people undergo the $€X-change operation. This involves removing the testicles and cutting the penis in half lengthways and removing the inside tissue. The penis skin remains attached, the urethral tube is realigned and the skin from the penis is then folded inside a surgically made cavity to line an artificial vagina. In some cases, the head of the penis becomes the clitoris and is capable of orgasm. Tragically, the suicide rate for transsexuals is five times that of the general population. One in five attempt suicide.

Are we Slaves to our Biology? - Scientists know how to change the sexuality of rats and monkeys in the womb. Some groups claim that we can control our likes and dislikes by will or choice and they insist that we can all reverse park or read street directories with the same ease. But scientists know this is unrealistic. You don't need to be a scientist to see that rabbits can't fly, ducks are lousy runners, most women have difficulty reading maps and men reading newspapers are temporarily deaf. Understanding brain structure differences makes us more tolerant of each other and allows us to have greater control over our destiny and to feel positive about our inclinations and choices. Human intelligence has evolved to a point where we are more in control of our emotions than other animals and can think through our choices. Other animals don't think: they react to circumstances and this makes them slaves to their biology. Our biology is the motivation behind many of the choices we make that sometimes don't seem to make sense to us. So while we are more in control of ourselves than most other animals, we still can't completely buck the system. The biggest obstacle facing most people is their rejection of the idea that we are just another animal with a smart brain. This refusal makes these people victims of their biology. Why Gay Men Aren't All Alike In simple terms, there are two main centres associated with homosexual behaviour, the 'mating centre' and the 'behaviour centre'. The 'mating centre' is located in the hypothalamus and decides which $€X we will be attracted to. In males, it needs to be dosed in male hormones to convert it to male operational function, so that a man will be attracted to a woman. If it receives insufficient male hormones it will remain, to a greater or lesser extent, female in operation and so the man will be attracted to other men. The 'behaviour centre' in the brain may not, however, receive enough male hormones to give a man masculine behaviour, speech and body language. If it doesn't receive enough for male reconfiguration, the man's behaviour will be significantly feminine. How the mating and behaviour centres can receive different amounts of male hormone is still a mystery, but it certainly demonstrates why not all effeminate males are gay, and not all macho men are heterosexual. Lesbian Differences If the brain of a female foetus inadvertently receives additional male hormones, it can masculinise the mating centre. This means that as a woman she will be attracted to other women. If her behaviour centre is also masculinised, she will take on masculine behaviour, speech and body language, and may be described as 'butch'. If her behaviour centre is not converted by male hormones, on the other hand, she will remain feminine in behaviour, but will still be attracted to other females. These results have also been shown in experiments on female rats and monkeys. While 'butch' lesbians can be plainly seen to be the result of their biology, many people today still resist the idea that feminine lesbians are also prisoners of their make-up. They suggest these women must have actually chosen to be gay, because they most definitely do not look gay. Just witness the number of men who say, when they see a very feminine, or 'lipstick', lesbian, 'I bet I could get her to change her mind'. These women, however, really are attracted to other women.

Well done. Now go home.

http://www.hollowshrine.uni.cc/forums/viewtopic.p...f9af90f218e511dfc6
neat

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Originally posted by mogster
If the brain of a female foetus inadvertently receives additional male hormones, it can masculinise the mating centre.

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Originally posted by Dr4g0n

But tbh who cares, lesbians are hot.

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Originally posted by Voldemort
http://www.hollowshrine.uni.cc/forums/viewtopic.php?t=41&sid=0a51ba3f0969f0f9af90f218e511dfc6
neat

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you honestly think I'm going to read that? you coulda just said I think that its_______ and this is why______(short paragraph explaining why)

imo, it doesnt matter and it just can't be explained                     

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Originally posted by alexp2_ad
Born that way.  If you're straight, could you happily choose to be gay and have sex with the same gender?  If you're gay, could you happily choose to be straight and have sex with the other gender?  No, therefore: born that way.  (Or possibly a combination of factors while growing up, but not a conscious choice)

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