Treat the forum like a real community - Printable Version
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Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-22-2007 at 11:56 PM
I'm pretty much tired of everyone being so angry on here.
Every time someone posts something they don't care about, there's always a flock of people right there to spit in their face.
The Flamer attitude that people have causes anger to the Flamee.
The Flamee retaliates to some extent, be it big or small, in more anger.
Flamers, with big enough post counts, use their privilege of giving reputations to degrade the Flamee to the extent that he is even more angry.
The attitudes of many forum members, make that community members are too much.
This may just be my opinion. If so, I need to find somewhere else to visit.
Is this just my opinion?
(You'll probably see a couple posts that resemble the ones of which I'm speaking)
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Menthix on 01-23-2007 at 12:00 AM
Is it this time of the year again? Ladies and gentleman, please welcome the great and dramatic quarterly "This is a nazi forum" topic.
But seriously tho, how much more of these topics will there be?
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by albert on 01-23-2007 at 12:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MenthiX
But seriously tho, how much more of these topics will there be?
Blah, this one seems to be talking about a specific issue, compared to others which were well more general.. And although I started hating this kind of threads, I don't mind this one at all.
Back to the subject,
I just want to say that I share your opinion.
(Although I realize there is not much that me posting this will change.)
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by prashker on 01-23-2007 at 12:07 AM
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/calendar.php?action=event&eid=404
Guess it came early .
I set that calendar event when NiteMare did his rant 
And I set that 6 months later from the day he ranted ..
And it's 404
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-23-2007 at 12:10 AM
quote:Dang. I missed it..
Originally posted by SonicSam
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/calendar.php?action=event&eid=404
Guess it came early
I set that calendar event when NiteMare did his rant
And I set that 6 months later from the day he ranted
And it's 404
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by L. Coyote on 01-23-2007 at 12:11 AM
It's actually funny when it comes from people who go around repping positively members who break the rules all the time, and then call the rest of us names in those reps.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by banky on 01-23-2007 at 12:21 AM
Atown =), lol I have to agree with you though it has changed alot since back when I used to come around alot.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Rolando on 01-23-2007 at 12:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MenthiX
Is it this time of the year again? Ladies and gentleman, please welcome the great and dramatic quarterly "This is a nazi forum" topic.
But seriously tho, how much more of these topics will there be?
Natzi forum.
Hm.. I always think twice before giving a new to someone. And some members do deserve the flaming, and it helps them change (most of the times, *ahem*).. and then people update their reps.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Lou on 01-23-2007 at 01:07 AM
Look, I don't enjoy having to be the one to say it, but if you aren't happy, how about reporting the posts instead of making this useless thread in the first place.
![[Image: report.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/report.gif)
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by NiteMare on 01-23-2007 at 01:37 AM
quote:its not meaning less, i agree with him, the quality of this forum HAS degraded seriously, reporting posts doesn't change the attitude, the damaged still gets done, the only way to get it change is everybody changes their attitude. and stop flaming the shit out of anybody with an opinion different then yours, unless its totally off the wall like "lets all cut off our balls and send them to <insert forum member here>"(and even then if you know they're obviously joking, then ignore it), then you should respect their opinion.
Originally posted by .Lou
Look, I don't enjoy having to be the one to say it, but if you aren't happy, how about reporting the posts instead of making this useless thread in the first place.
A difference of opinion is not a wrong opinion.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Nagamasa on 01-23-2007 at 02:39 AM
It did get slightly better after traxor's rant, however, it has once again degraded.
In this case, flaming is like peer pressure. Someone with a reasonable post count starts, and everyone does too to avoid negs (or their mentality thinks something along the lines of that). It a hard situation to deal with, and I come in contact with it first hand (peer mediation!!). It's an inevitable situation.
quote:
Originally posted by .Lou
Look, I don't enjoy having to be the one to say it, but if you aren't happy, how about reporting the posts instead of making this useless thread in the first place.
However, getting one of these periodically make us think about our actions, and perhaps correct those mistakes that we have made. We all have made mistakes before. But we need to know what they are and how to correct them. So this kinda thread triggers that thought.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Weyzza on 01-23-2007 at 02:50 AM
quote:People "flame" to avoid negative reputations?
Originally posted by Nagamasa
In this case, flaming is like peer pressure. Someone with a reasonable post count starts, and everyone does too to avoid negs
Wow, that's some perspective
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-23-2007 at 02:54 AM
quote:Of course.... by people who ignore others who try to help by deleting threads....
Originally posted by NiteMare
the quality of this forum HAS degraded seriously
But of course, a different opinion is not a wrong opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by NiteMare
A difference of opinion is not a wrong opinion.
Btw, nubs who refuse are to be told.......
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Nagamasa on 01-23-2007 at 03:00 AM
quote:Late night thinking sorry for the misunderstanding
Originally posted by Weyzza
quote:People "flame" to avoid negative reputations?
Originally posted by Nagamasa
In this case, flaming is like peer pressure. Someone with a reasonable post count starts, and everyone does too to avoid negs
Wow, that's some perspective
People follow a leader, which shows power somehow (which includes flaming). Others are then peer pressures indirectly and follow suit, although it might be just coincidentally that all the members feel the same way.
And another analogy is a bully. Teachers tell you not to bully (like how this thread is telling you not to flame), but people still do, and it exists because there is an audience, which gives the will to flame. Some of the audience dont have the power to stand up (and post little comments here like me), or just leave it as is. But sometimes its for a good cause, which is totally fine, but I've only seen it a few times here. There is, once again, no easy way out of this.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by L. Coyote on 01-23-2007 at 03:17 AM
I hear what you're saying, but I don't see what's the point.
There is a reason why some members get flamed. And that's not peer pressure or whatever. It's because they spam.
I see a new tendency that started after one of the rants a few months ago:
* New member spams.
* New member gets a negative rep saying he spams and should read the rules.
* Old member reps the new member saying all the people who gave a neg to the new member are idiots and they should remember when they first joined, blah, blah...
Basically, people are forgetting something: You don't rep people because of pity or because when you first joined you spammed like crazy and now you see the errors of your ways and feel that this new member deserves something you didn't have back then.
You're basically doing all the contrary to the
Different opinion != Wrong opinion
thing you preach. 
If 15 people and an admin think a user is spamming, it tells you something. It doesn't mean peer pressure.
You get tired of telling the same person over and over again to read the rules, stop double posting, stop trying to get your post count to increase by making pointless or repeated threads outside of T&T, stop insulting others in public or in PMs, etc.
Then someone comes along and reps the guy with a + and says: "aww, you were noobs too! 
"
That's something that irks me. It's like it doesn't matter anymore that you're trying to point people into the right direction.
I think THAT'S what's actually degrading this forum. Giving spammers a pat on the back every time someone's trying to make them stop.
So, go ahead, mask it with peer pressure, evil reppers or "we were noobs too", but I think you bring this upon yourselves.
Btw, I was a noob too. But I never had to be told twice to read the rules.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Hank on 01-23-2007 at 03:20 AM
quote:didnt think you had any
Originally posted by Time
My nuts yearn for your sanity.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by NiteMare on 01-23-2007 at 04:00 AM
quote:its those kinds of comments that ruin this forum, why would you bring that up. that was over a month ago. it serves no purpose but to try to make me angry, and THAT is exactly what we're talking about.
Originally posted by Voldemort
Of course.... by people who ignore others who try to help by deleting threads....
the new attitude of this forum includes:
-anger
-constantly egging on already pissed people
- who then get flamed for getting mad.
-mass negging(you post a neg and then everyone jumps in on it)
-new member berating
-constant spaming
and don't be reading this and think it doesn't apply to you, its probualy 98% of this forum that has done one of the above.
bottom line, give people the respect they deserve, everybody screws up once and a while, don't pick them to death over it
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by FineWolf on 01-23-2007 at 04:04 AM
Just a comment on mass negging here. If I neg, it is usually because the user deserved it, and I do provide proof in my descriptions (PIDs or TIDs). I do not look at a user's previous reputation before negging. Same applies for my positive responses. I either give proof or a general comment about the user which applies to the majority of his posts.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Rolando on 01-23-2007 at 04:27 AM
I do realize when a person has a negative reputation it encourages you/makes it easier for you to decide if you want to give them a negative.
But, the thing is.. most of the times they deserve those negative reputations, and maybe they're taking to an extreme.. but everyone should have the chance to explain how they feel.
RE: RE: Treat the forum like a real community by markee on 01-23-2007 at 04:29 AM
quote:If I remember rightly there was someone else who did this same thing after you, so don't just assume he was pointing the finger at you alone.
Originally posted by NiteMare
quote:its those kinds of comments that ruin this forum, why would you bring that up. that was over a month ago. it serves no purpose but to try to make me angry, and THAT is exactly what we're talking about.
Originally posted by Voldemort
Of course.... by people who ignore others who try to help by deleting threads....
Personally I agree with most actions of the people on the forum. The only thing I don't agree with is the comments made by some members that have no use other than to degrade others obviously and they continuously do this. Though I must say, recently these people have become better IMO and there is less of it.
A newb should be treated with only a little more care than an ordinary member IMHO. A newb should try to fit in with the dynamics of the forum and abide by the rules set, if they don't then they should expect the consequences. I personally have realised my mistakes when people have said something and then I didn't do it again and in turn I haven't received any negative rep for it (furthermore, I haven't even received a neutral, but thats not the point). People need to learn from their mistakes, not just keep on do it until they are forcefully dealt with.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-23-2007 at 04:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NiteMare
its those kinds of comments that ruin this forum, why would you bring that up. that was over a month ago. it serves no purpose but to try to make me angry, and THAT is exactly what we're talking about.
quote:We differ in opinion. Different opinions, as you nicely pointed out, are not wrong, and are to be respected, nightmare.
Originally posted by NiteMare
A difference of opinion is not a wrong opinion.
quote:Just wanted to point out that reps are just opinions.... anyone can give me a neg because we disagree...(as its already done
Originally posted by markee
I personally have realised my mistakes when people have said something and then I didn't do it again and in turn I haven't received any negative rep for it (furthermore, I haven't even received a neutral, but thats not the point).
)....quote:Exactly.
Originally posted by markee
People need to learn from their mistakes, not just keep on do it until they are forcefully dealt with.
What some people forget is that the guy who triggered these refused to listen to most regulars and admins (WDZ), you do know that patience has an end....
btw, my posts are:
quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort
*All posts are a purely speculative hypothesis based on abstract reasoning.
RE: RE: Treat the forum like a real community by WDZ on 01-23-2007 at 04:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by FineWolf
Just a comment on mass negging here. If I neg, it is usually because the user deserved it, and I do provide proof in my descriptions (PIDs or TIDs). I do not look at a user's previous reputation before negging. Same applies for my positive responses. I either give proof or a general comment about the user which applies to the majority of his posts.
But with the thread/post IDs, it's important to remember that posts can always* be deleted or edited to get rid of the evidence, which could render your vote reason useless.
* Unless the thread is closed.
RE: RE: RE: Treat the forum like a real community by FineWolf on 01-23-2007 at 04:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by WDZ
But with the thread/post IDs, it's important to remember that posts can always* be deleted or edited to get rid of the evidence, which could render your vote reason useless.
* Unless the thread is closed.
Yes... but who closes or deletes the threads...
The important part of the reputation system is to help the admins and moderators identify problematic users. This is why I rep, and I report (as you might of noticed) alot of users and posts.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Nagamasa on 01-23-2007 at 12:08 PM
YAY for Nick!
Looking back at my PMs, he did really change a lot. A lot of noobs go for the post count at the beginning, then once they realize, they stop. That was why he did stop spamming (with the help of others), and became a 'normal' regular.
Now, he's getting along with pretty much everyone, and his rep soaring, while mine is stuck around +17...he also made lotsa friends too!
I would just say that if we dont spaz each time a new-comer spams, the spam will eventually decrease themselves, as the way people think tend to change.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by plus on 01-23-2007 at 04:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by atown44
I'm pretty much tired of everyone being so angry on here.
Every time someone posts something they don't care about, there's always a flock of people right there to spit in their face.
The Flamer attitude that people have causes anger to the Flamee.
The Flamee retaliates to some extent, be it big or small, in more anger.
Flamers, with big enough post counts, use their privilege of giving reputations to degrade the Flamee to the extent that he is even more angry.
The attitudes of many forum members, make that community members are too much.
This may just be my opinion. If so, I need to find somewhere else to visit.
Is this just my opinion?
(You'll probably see a couple posts that resemble the ones of which I'm speaking)
now you know how i feel
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Oxy on 01-23-2007 at 06:33 PM
Yeah, i completely understand what is being said here, and i admit i am one of the (apparent) 98% forum members who neg rep a newbie. after reading this thread, i have indeedly decided to delete my rep from .2007's (and others) reputation to try and make it easier for him/her/them to repair. However, i am against people doing rep-backs (Pos. and neg.)
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-23-2007 at 10:27 PM
quote:You do consider sometimes people refuse to listen, and that it does not work sometimes?
Originally posted by Phillip
Now about the n00bs..!!1! If someone is pissing you off send them a PM. Look at Ebfl. He was the most annoying little bastard ever. I sent him a PM asking him to settle down a bit and try fit in a bit more and now he has more rep than me. It only took me what.. 1 minute to change a n00b spammer
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-23-2007 at 11:20 PM
quote:Sometimes.
Originally posted by Voldemort
quote:You do consider sometimes people refuse to listen, and that it does not work sometimes?
Originally posted by Phillip
Now about the n00bs..!!1! If someone is pissing you off send them a PM. Look at Ebfl. He was the most annoying little bastard ever. I sent him a PM asking him to settle down a bit and try fit in a bit more and now he has more rep than me. It only took me what.. 1 minute to change a n00b spammer
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by foaly on 01-24-2007 at 12:12 AM
I thought the rep system was there to show people that you think they are a positive or negative addition to the forum...
Everyone was a newb once... true but not everyone had a negative rep when they just joined...
And when people get mass neg reps then (most off the time) they deserve it...
By making this kind off threads you change someone's opinion about someone else...
ebfl (for example) should change his rep for .2007 and others because he thinks they changed, not because off this thread...
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-24-2007 at 12:41 AM
The rep. system only shows necessity in that It would show someone whether or not to trust the poster. What else does it do for the forum? Remind you that you hated that guy?
I'm not saying the rep. system needs to be removed, or even changed, there just needs to be a better usage of the necessity.
There are arguments about whether the new people don't follow the rules correctly, or whether or not they should be given leeway because they are new, saying they should read the rules.
News Flash:
quote:
Originally posted by msghelp.net/rules.html
Respect: Members should respect others, and avoid making derogatory comments or giving rude treatment ("flaming"). Also respect the privacy of others, and don't share their personal information without permission.
There is also the Swearing rule, which states not to use such words toward another member. I've seen a few people disregarding this, including myself.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-24-2007 at 12:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by atown44
he rep. system only shows necessity in that It would show someone whether or not to trust the poster.
And that is a pretty big deal... I've seen some posts that post the worst 'advice' (if it can be called that) i've ever seen
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Hank on 01-24-2007 at 01:05 AM
i Say We Turn The Rep System off an see how the community goes if it improves or not,, if it doesnt, then turn the rep system back on,
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-24-2007 at 01:07 AM
quote:I said it shows necessity. It's good when used the right way, but it can be misunderstood.
Originally posted by Voldemort
quote:
Originally posted by atown44
he rep. system only shows necessity in that It would show someone whether or not to trust the poster.
And that is a pretty big deal... I've seen some posts that post the worst 'advice' (if it can be called that) i've ever seen
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Lou on 01-24-2007 at 02:03 AM
quote:That's not an option. It's been discussed in the past, and the admins decided it was staying. I really don't see how it would help anyway. All of this talk for nothing. A simple reminder from time to time that someone's actions are against the rule (or such), by private message, really should be enough for everything to stop. I don't see how, once again, discussing possible solutions (which, 1. aren't up to you to decide, but the admins. and 2. are a lot less likely to work/happen than simple private messages) is going to solve any problems.
Originally posted by HSV
i Say We Turn The Rep System off an see how the community goes if it improves or not,, if it doesnt, then turn the rep system back on,
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by NiteMare on 01-24-2007 at 04:05 AM
its not the reputation system thats the problem, its peoples attitude towards it
not only that, but towards everybody else, nobody seems to just drop issues once they're finished, or give anybody a break
one little slip up and BAM, a ton of people slam down on the person, and CONTINUE to do it, for weeks after. and thats why so meny newbies, look so bad, because everybody just reads what everybody else has said, thinks its valid and then negs then, i think if somebody does something bad. only one person should neg them for that, then let it be... why should somebody be neg by 20 people for 1 little mistake.
if seen on other forums, reputation systems that you can only add a reputation in a post or in a thread, and once somebody else has reped them, then you can't for that post anymore.
i'm not suggesting that modifacation, i'm just suggesting alittle restrant with your reps, negs and pos's
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by WDZ on 01-24-2007 at 04:14 AM
quote:That's how it was before I rewrote it, and it really sucked.
Originally posted by NiteMare
if seen on other forums, reputation systems that you can only add a reputation in a post or in a thread, and once somebody else has reped them, then you can't for that post anymore.
There's a big discussion about it here: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=24273 (from 2004).
The latest versions of MyBB now work exactly the same as this board.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-24-2007 at 04:16 AM
Why? My opinion differs.
Reps are for opinions, you may think x of me, so you go and write it,
i see someone that is spamming/offending, i neg rep. Another person sees another spammy post, so they neg rep or pm the person who refuses to change...
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by John Anderton on 01-24-2007 at 04:23 AM
As MenthiX said, is it that time of the year already?
Seriously, these threads come up every 6 months, get some replies about how right the author is, a few promises by spammers saying "we wont do this again" and then finally a few weeks later this thread with a few hundred posts is forgotten.
quote:I hate that method!
Originally posted by NiteMare
if seen on other forums, reputation systems that you can only add a reputation in a post or in a thread, and once somebody else has reped them, then you can't for that post anymore.
Leads to mass ganging up and people having thousands of votes. The modifications WDZ made are way better imo
IMO the rep system is fine atm. We've gone through this a million times. Stop trying to abuse it and stop cribbing about how you got "unfair reps." Everyone should read the reputation reason guideline and remember it. When voting, remember to keep your votes within the bounds of the rules. If you think a vote you have is against it, PM the guy in return. Don't fight or anything, just a polite question. Doesn't work? PM WDZ.
I think WDZ looks at most (if not all) of the reps some time or the other. I think he must have some sort of "new reps given" page
Anyway, you guys need to report a rep to the admins and they'll do the rest
Reps aren't your life so move on, please.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by markee on 01-24-2007 at 04:24 AM
If there was someone as equally useful as the reason for the negatives then they would get about the same amount of positive rep for it. Outstandingly bad and outstandingly good will get you about the same amount of rep IMO, just in different directions and so I see no reason for changes in behavior towards the reputation system. Furthermore, if you could only give them one rep per post/thread for the person then why wouldn't you just go look at another post of theirs and do it to that one? It seems a little stupid to me.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Voldemort on 01-24-2007 at 04:42 AM
quote:I'm 90% sure he has one... <3 rep deleting...
Originally posted by John Anderton
I think he must have some sort of "new reps given" page (Smilie)
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Joe on 01-24-2007 at 05:04 AM
quote:If I hadn't said this, there'd be no arguments on the rep. system. Let me clarify.
Originally posted by atown44
The rep. system only shows necessity in that It would show someone whether or not to trust the poster. What else does it do for the forum? Remind you that you hated that guy?
I'm not saying the rep. system needs to be removed, or even changed, there just needs to be a better usage of the necessity.
There's nothing wrong with the rep system, it's the treatment of the system.
RE: RE: Treat the forum like a real community by markee on 01-24-2007 at 05:36 AM
quote:He has said previously in the shoutbox that he checks all of the rep given everyday as this is easier than people getting heaps of PM about the reps.
Originally posted by Voldemort
quote:I'm 90% sure he has one... <3 rep deleting...
Originally posted by John Anderton
I think he must have some sort of "new reps given" page (Smilie)
In other words, WDZ has no life
* markee runs
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Adeptus on 01-24-2007 at 10:31 AM
It really needs to be better understood that reputation on this forum is not an important criteria of life quality.
In my time with this community (well over a year), I have noticed that certain members seem to habitually neg-rep newcomers, over relatively minor things new members are bound to do before they learn better. Greater restraint in that area would be helpful; at least, I would suggest sending a private message first, to anyone you are contemplating for a negative reputation. People shouldn't care about reputations, but they do -- let's try to not alienate anyone before they've had a chance to do something positive.
Where the reputation system really shines is controversial personalities. I will refrain from naming anyone, but these are the characters that seem to have a negative for every two positives, and still end up with a higher positive reputation than most. They polarize the community, and for the most part, this is good.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by J.J on 01-24-2007 at 10:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by HSV
i Say We Turn The Rep System off an see how the community goes if it improves or not,, if it doesnt, then turn the rep system back on,
Tbph, i think the rep system keeps some people in their places. Removing it would do more harm than good imo. This suggestion has always been turned down, so there is no reason to bring it up again. As a long time forum member, i'm sure you would be aware of the several previous discussions the community has had in the past.
During my time in this community I never have really payed attention to these threads (which is well over two years now). I've chosen to stay out of the forum arguments, and keep to myself, as arguing is not something i like doing. But this is something that i will say...
Some forum members really need to step back and lower their egos. If someone new is making mistakes, then lead him or her to the right answers and teach them the proper way of presenting themselves to others in the community. If this person continues to disregard the Forum rules, or continues on with any type of ridiculous behavior, it is NOT a forum members job to deal with the problem. The moderates and admins are here for a reason, and all of the forum members flaming foolish behaviour and creating arguments does not help make an admins or moderators job any easier.
When i first joined this forum, I made a few mistakes, as I was totally unaware of certain things and how things worked. And yes, i was rightfully explained by Anubis and Cookie about how to deal with such things at the time, and i became a better member because of it.
I must stress that flaming other members, or retaliating to mediocrity just makes these problems worse. The rep system is there for a reason - that is where forum members should have their say, and by saying that, that does not mean degrading the person when giving a negative vote, but professionally explaining what the member has done to deserve such a vote. The Mods and Admins are here to deal with forum members who go beyond certain guidelines and boundaries in this community.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by L. Coyote on 01-24-2007 at 12:44 PM
I can't believe people are actually arguing about the RS.
I think people need to learn to discern a reputation from a personal attack.
And move on in life, your rep does not dictate what kind of person you are.
You can have +45 and be an asshole. 
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by ShawnZ on 01-24-2007 at 01:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by L. Coyote
You can have +45 and be an asshole. (Smilie)
or +38
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by John Anderton on 01-24-2007 at 03:16 PM
rofl at both Leo and ShawnZ.
When will people learn reps don't count?
Probably never i guess. sigh.
RE: Treat the forum like a real community by Svip on 01-24-2007 at 03:18 PM
Angry? This is a Microsoft flavoured community! Of course they are angry, their antitrust lawsuit forces them to appear so.
Also, don't use my reputation as a references, I am Svip, that is a million multiplier right there.