Members behaviour towards new people! - Printable Version
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Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 12:36 PM
I was just reading a thread that was posted on all forums because obviously the poster didn't know where it would fit. Now that isn't good but what i find worst of all is that this person instantly recieves negs for it! None of the ones giving these negs even replied to the guy telling him where the thread should go!!!
Person i'm on about: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/reputation.php?uid=64810
I just read what was put inthere and tbh it's appauling! What has this guy done to be yelled at this much?! Did he yell at you? Did he tell you to" [quoted]die[/quoted]? He came asking for help!
What ever happend to beeing friendly?
In general: All too often new people get responces like "search!"(with or withouth other bad word to accompany that). Why can't you search for them? They are new, give them a break! You are the helper, behave like one! *holds back swearword*
It's this kind of behaviour that gives a forum a bad name!
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Supersonicdarky on 02-21-2007 at 12:39 PM
imo, its s spambot and not a member ![[Image: msn_tongue.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/msn_tongue.gif)
(or atleast someone who registered to spam)
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Hank on 02-21-2007 at 12:42 PM
totally agree with you Sun, its prolly why DZ hasn't bothered to upgrade the forum due to this , but i think its an arguement where maybe we should try disabling the rep system an see if things improve, i cant see what the harm is in doing that
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by markee on 02-21-2007 at 12:44 PM
Exactly Sunshine, I was ashamed that we have members that act like this. At least give the guy some advice, a nudge in the right direction is far better then being told you are stupid and we're going to make you look bad. What is this forum's primary reason? I thought it was to help people with MP!L but apparently people seem to think it is just a place to let out your anger on your unsuspecting prey or to laugh and joke around with friends. I know we volunteer our time but it is not like the people are being abusive to us, they are just looking for answers.
Btw, I think the one that posted in every forum is actually a good idea and I will be writing a script for it because I'm here to help!
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 12:58 PM
Supersonicdarky: you can't see wether it is a bot or not! Why would you rep if it's a bot? Not like bots read those now do they? There is nothin justifying this behaviour.
HSV: i don't think the rep system is at fault here, if anything i believe those who abuse that system should be punished (repping bannage or complete bannage when theres calling names etc involved).
markee: Thanks, i answered the guy but since you are writing a script for it thats where his thread belongs for now (i deleted my reply) 
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Eddie on 02-21-2007 at 01:09 PM
It has been seen on these forums numerous times where people have seemed bad at first appearance because they are "n00bs", but when they have got used to it and got into the "crowd" that seems to be here they are great members with reputations through the roof 
So i agree with Sunshine completely.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Jhrono on 02-21-2007 at 01:28 PM
Oh, somebody else finally realized this.. There's still some hope for this forum then
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 01:38 PM
quote:It's sad that a ranting thread has to be made before people even realise their behaviour is way off.
Originally posted by Jhrono
Oh, somebody else finally realized this.. There's still some hope for this forum then
Now i could have gone to report all them negs...yet i haven't..why? It won't solve anything, i want people to take a look at their own behaviour and see it for themselves so it won't happen again (hopefully).
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Thor on 02-21-2007 at 01:49 PM
Yes Sunshine, sometimes new members are being "knocked off" for asking questions. And yes, it shouldn't be that way, but honestly, lately there has been many threads placed wrong, with poor english, in some cases impossible to read. The forum should be more "gentle", but you can't expect everyone to have the same patient as you.
But as I said, yes the forum should be more "gentle" against new members.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Kenji on 02-21-2007 at 01:55 PM
Well, you cant really tell if it is a bot or not, But People should be given a second chance. Instead of negging them, just report the post or send the person a PM and get on with life. IMO.
Thing that makes me laugh is that when you posted this thread, ebfl changed his neg to a pos...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Phillip on 02-21-2007 at 02:09 PM
Yeah this is where I have to disagree.
Sure we should be more lenient to the newer members, but this guy is just spamming.. Why would you post the same thing in the same forum section twice. How hard is it to click that link up the top that says Help. He obviously doesn't want to come back, he wants us to email him.
Also a rep is nothing more than someones opinion. Why can't we voice our opinions. Isn't that what the rep system is for.
IMO if you have a problem with someones rep Pm the user that repped the person or PM an admin.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vimto on 02-21-2007 at 02:17 PM
Im not really sure about this. Its two sided I guess. On the one hand I agree with Sunshine but on the other I agree with Lip. The only new user I think Ive automatically negged are the many acounts krissy has created. But some new users do abuse the forums and post countless crap and spam.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Plik on 02-21-2007 at 02:20 PM
quote:No! the rep system is to give new people an indication of someones reputation on the forums, you should wait for a while before you decide what that person is like, we all make mistakes when we start doing something, and if we are treated well about our mistakes we usual develop into a good poster.
Originally posted by Phillip
Also a rep is nothing more than someones opinion. Why can't we voice our opinions. Isn't that what the rep system is for.
IMO the mob mentallity of some of the members on this forum scares newbies off, and stops them asking for help.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Phillip on 02-21-2007 at 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Plik
No! the rep system is to give new people an indication of someones reputation on the forums
Edit: Ok I get what your saying here =p
I will happily remove the rep I gave him.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Menthix on 02-21-2007 at 02:25 PM
quote:Agreed. Reputation is something you build up. You can't know someones reputation from just a few posts.
Originally posted by Plik
the rep system is to give new people an indication of someones reputation on the forums, you should wait for a while before you decide what that person is like
Suggestion to WDZ: Disable repping people with less than XX posts
.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 02:26 PM
quote:Please don't make me repeat your initial rep for the person i was on about..it wasn't an opinion at all!
Originally posted by Phillip
So your saying that my reps aren't my opinion about there person =/
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by user44571 on 02-21-2007 at 02:27 PM
If they don't abide by the rules, politely direct them to the rules or where to post their thread.
If they ignore this and do it again, tell them again, perhaps in a PM to get their attention.
If they still don't, then things might get a bit tedious, so just report it.
But let there be peace! <3
* user44571 frolics in the sunflowers
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Phillip on 02-21-2007 at 02:28 PM
quote:Please don't threaten me. I was mislead into thinking it was someone else.
Originally posted by Sunshine
quote:Please don't make me repeat your initial rep for the person i was on about..it wasn't an opinion at all!
Originally posted by Phillip
So your saying that my reps aren't my opinion about there person =/
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 02:33 PM
quote:Will you go apologise for your "not ment for that person" rep to the person you wronged then? Think before you rep someone next time (even tho in my heart i know you're just putting up a petty excuse now). I still know what it said and tbh i don't see why one would deserve a neg rep over it, it says nothin about ones helpfulness on the forums.
Originally posted by Phillip
Please don't threaten me. I was mislead into thinking it was someone else.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Phillip on 02-21-2007 at 02:40 PM
quote:It was not a petty excuse. I will apologize but don't assume things you don't know..
Originally posted by Sunshine
(even tho in my heart i know you're just putting up a petty excuse now)
* Phillip leaves.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 02:43 PM
quote:Don't rep (either pos or neg) people you don't know...
Originally posted by Phillip
It was not a petty excuse. I will apologize but don't assume things you don't know..
* Phillip leaves.
I would also like to point everybody to: Reputation reason guidelines
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Phillip on 02-21-2007 at 02:51 PM
Oh I see.. I get flamed for voicing my opinion. Thanks alot Sunshine you really made me fell like shit.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vimto on 02-21-2007 at 02:54 PM
Wow I could cut this tension with a plastic knife. Erm.
Lets all have a ![[Image: pizza.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/pizza.gif)
Party with some ![[Image: pretzel.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/pretzel.gif)
...
I agree with MethiX, I think that we shouldn't be able to rep people with a certain amount of posts. You shouldnt really judge people on their first few posts.
We were all new once.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by joey on 02-21-2007 at 03:50 PM
we should just PM themor something and let them know what they're doing wrong and im sure they'll soon get the hang of it.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Jesus on 02-21-2007 at 04:46 PM
I agree, sometimes new members don't get a warm welcome. But in this case, I think the neg I gave was totally justified.
I haven't seen a single board in my entire life where people could just go create multiple threads about the same subject without any problems or comments about it. Just because they are *new* and all that doesn't mean they are special and can ignore the rules. The rules are there for a reason.
In most cases where new members aren't welcomed like they should (I do think new members should be welcomed friendly and positively), it is because they either haven't read the rules or just ignore them. If I don't follow the rules I take the risk of being negged, so why would it be different for others? The fact that they are new shouldn't make any difference, they're on the same forum with the same rules. If we have to point every (well, almost every) new member to the rules, we will have hardly any time left to help them with their problem. (bit exaggerated, but you get my point)
IMO, new members should be directed to the rules once they register, and maybe even the first couple of times they sign in to make sure they have taken notice of the fact that there are rules to follow.
My 2 cents.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by user27089 on 02-21-2007 at 05:23 PM
You know that I agree with you, but it really isn't worth moaning to anybody on this forums. Few people on the forum will take it into account and many of those who do will probably only follow it for a few days or weeks then go back to their old ways.
I've posted a few threats like this and people just took the piss, it puts members off of this forum.
It's full of dicks.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Kenji on 02-21-2007 at 05:45 PM
quote:If you dont like it, why dont you just leave?
Originally posted by traxor
You know that I agree with you, but it really isn't worth moaning to anybody on this forums. Few people on the forum will take it into account and many of those who do will probably only follow it for a few days or weeks then go back to their old ways.
I've posted a few threats like this and people just took the piss, it puts members off of this forum.
It's full of dicks.
All forums are like this, if you dont like it, leave. imo.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by marc87 on 02-21-2007 at 06:47 PM
I think the rep thing should be stopped or people should be able to give reps back easier then having to post 100 posts because some of the people can be a little harsh with some of negging and may make people feel like outcasts and might not want to come back on the forum sorry for punctuation i was in the dumbass english class in school
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Oxy on 02-21-2007 at 06:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by marc87
eople should be able to give reps back easier then having to post 100 posts because some of the people can be a little harsh with some of negging
So you want to give neg-backs? that's against the rules..
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by marc87 on 02-21-2007 at 06:54 PM
well its alot harder posting 100 things seeing as im not a scripter i was just giving my opinion on it >.<
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vimto on 02-21-2007 at 06:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by marc87
well its alot harder posting 100 things seeing as im not a scripter i was just giving my opinion on it >.<
I dont understand you
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Menthix on 02-21-2007 at 06:55 PM
quote:Still seems the best solution to me.
Originally posted by MenthiX
Suggestion to WDZ: Disable repping people with less than XX posts
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Jhrono on 02-21-2007 at 06:55 PM
quote:Sure, that's what I did and it didn't make a difference.. Plus, it's a lot funnier to see punks like you acting like they actually had authority
Originally posted by Dazmo
If you dont like it, why dont you just leave?
All forums are like this, if you dont like it, leave. imo.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vimto on 02-21-2007 at 06:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MenthiX
quote:Still seems the best solution to me.
Originally posted by MenthiX
Suggestion to WDZ: Disable repping people with less than XX posts
Yeah I agree with that
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Oxy on 02-21-2007 at 06:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jhrono
quote:Sure, that's what I did and it didn't make a difference..
Originally posted by Dazmo
If you dont like it, why dont you just leave?
All forums are like this, if you dont like it, leave. imo.
you mean, you still got annoyed by us lot even though you weren't here?
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Plik on 02-21-2007 at 07:02 PM
quote:I think stricter banning from the rep system, if people show that they are abusing the rep system then you can't be sure whether any rep they give is vaild.
Originally posted by MenthiX
quote:Still seems the best solution to me.
Originally posted by MenthiX
Suggestion to WDZ: Disable repping people with less than XX posts
Also how about reps expireing after a certain amount of time active in the forum, as some people have been mass neg repped, then changed yet they still have some neg reps left over, because people forget the change them.
Although i still think the rep system should stay the same and people should learn to use it properly
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by WDZ on 02-21-2007 at 07:38 PM
quote:I don't completely agree with that.
Originally posted by MenthiX
Agreed. Reputation is something you build up. You can't know someones reputation from just a few posts.
Not all new members are innocent. Some of them come here knowing full well that they're doing something wrong.
Ban evaders, spammers, advertisers, flamers, porn-link-posters, the list goes on. I actually find it really useful when these people get a bad rep. For one thing, it gives everyone else an easy way to know what's going on. Also, if the dodgy member replies to a support thread, that red number next to his post tells everyone that "this guy probably shouldn't be trusted."
Some boards out there actually auto-ban people based on reputation, which attests to its usefulness as a "troublemaker indicator," IMO.
But feel free to debate...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 08:40 PM
quote:Do the innocent new members have to suffer because of the non-innocent ones? Is it justified to tell them to die and make sexual assumptions in reps? To flame them where they can't even respond back? Yes, it's those responces that made me decide to post a thread about it most of all.
Originally posted by WDZ
Not all new members are innocent. Some of them come here knowing full well that they're doing something wrong.
Ban evaders, spammers, advertisers, flamers, porn-link-posters, the list goes on.
This guy clearly was confused as to where his thread should go and didn't want it to go unnoticed. Nowhere did he flame anyone, spam a porn link or existing threads nor did he advertise in any sense of the word!
Seriously is there no respect at all anymore? To those who think this kind of behaviour is the correct one ask yourself if you would like to be treated that way yourself.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by L. Coyote on 02-21-2007 at 09:04 PM
Why didn't you just link to the Reputation System Guidelines in your first post, instead of the second third page of the thread? Instead of making this into Yet Another Pointless Rant thread, why not remind everyone to follow those guidelines? A reminder is more likely to reach people than a rant.
Did anyone PM the member with the Forum Rules and gave him a pat on the back, telling not to worry about what others said? Did anyone try and explain why people gave him such comments?
Did anyone PM WDZ about the comments that broke the Guidelines, so that he removed the ones he thought were inappropriate?
I'm tired of people who take the easy path and complain about the forum members, instead of doing things themselves. If you care so much, take the time to talk to new members!
The Reputation System doesn't need to change. People need to stop obsessing over it.
If there's a suggestion that should be made is that a new member receives a PM with links to the Forum Rules, explanation of the Reputation System, and that kind of thing.
Something brief, to-the-point, but precise. (Remember, not many people want to read, unfortunately.)
But even that is just pointless, IMO.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 09:15 PM
quote:Because i wanted to discuss the whole behaviour and not just the neg repping.
Originally posted by L. Coyote
Why didn't you just link to the Reputation System Guidelines in your first post, instead of the second page of the thread?
quote:The guidelines are there as a sticky...does it realy need more reminding than that?
Instead of making this into Yet Another Pointless Rant thread, why not remind everyone to follow those guidelines? A reminder is more likely to reach people than a rant.
quote:Yes i did pm that member, told him i understand his confusion as to where a thread should go etc and not to take notice of the negs given. I also asked him to delete his threads that were still unanswered at that point (back then just one got an answer). Those threads were gone later on, i can't see wether he did that himself or if a mod/admin did.
Did anyone PM the member with the Forum Rules and gave him a pat on the back, telling not to worry about what others said? Did anyone try and explain why people gave him such comments?
quote:Simply removing reps isn't gonna teach people how to correctly use the repping system. I'm sorry i didn't screenie the reps that were there when i made this thread now..
Did anyone PM WDZ about the comments that broke the Guidelines, so that he removed the ones he thought were inappropriate?
Guess i'm too nice giving people a second chance on reps they gave...
quote:I did not take the easy path at all...i did pm the new member too. I even took time to try and educate people, tryin to make them see why what they done is wrong. I took the risk of people hating me for "slapping them on the wrist".
I'm tired of people who take the easy path and complain about the forum members, instead of doing things themselves. If you care so much, take the time to talk to new members!
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by marc87 on 02-21-2007 at 09:17 PM
Maybe the staff should have a staff meeting over this and get it sorted quickly. And wdz people can change and just because they have a bad rep does'nt mean they cant be trusted and should be banned
Oh and i just found the rules today. So ill behave and try not to spam anymore.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-21-2007 at 09:32 PM
PS: L. Coyote, I picked your post to reply to and to make my thought clear for general purpose for everybody to read. So I hope others read it as if it is replied to them and that you don't feel that you're the only one who I 'attack'... The next parts are to be read as a response to everybody (your post was simply usefull to be taken for the means of something to reply to)
quote:Because something needs to be done....
Originally posted by L. Coyote
Why didn't you just link to the Reputation System Guidelines in your first post, instead of thesecondthird page of the thread? Instead of making this into Yet Another Pointless Rant thread, why not remind everyone to follow those guidelines? A reminder is more likely to reach people than a rant.
The rep system is not the thing which is/should be discussed here, it is our behaviour what is/should be discussed. But again, it is/was deviated towards the rep system...
Why do you think those 'rant' threads are made? Why do you think those 'rant' threads pop up more and more often? Not because we like to rant... on the contrary...
But maybe because it is time (heck, way past that time IMO) that something drastically needs to be done. And I'm not talking about an upgrade to a new version (which will NOT make things better, an upgrade isn't going to change people's behaviour), a restriction to the rep system or whatever other thing, but about changing how we behave, as a community, towards each other, towards new people...
It is time to start thinking instead of acting... or not acting and ignoring in this case as it is the nth time that people complain and nothing is done about it afterwards (and I don't mean deleting those reps or whatever, but efforts to try and make the community act like a community again with decent and respectfull smart people instead of a bunch of smartass kids)...
quote:Maybe, maybe not... dunno
Originally posted by L. Coyote
Did anyone PM the member with the Forum Rules and gave him a pat on the back, telling not to worry about what others said? Did anyone try and explain why people gave him such comments?
Did anyone PM WDZ about the comments that broke the Guidelines, so that he removed the ones he thought were inappropriate?
But that is not the issue here... The issue here is how people (regulars!!!!!!!!!!!!) behave towards such new members in the FIRST place...
quote:excuse me?
Originally posted by L. Coyote
I'm tired of people who take the easy path and complain about the forum members, instead of doing things themselves. If you care so much, take the time to talk to new members!
You think complaining is easy? You think we like to complain and put our time in writing essays to make it clear that these things can't go any further?
Tbh, it is WAY easier and faster to just hit the report button and write 1 short sentence to the mods and be done with it (aka: ignoring it) than it is to put time and effort into trying to make it clear to people in public that such behaviour is as bad..sorry, worse, than a new member spamming.
quote:Extremely true too
Originally posted by L. Coyote
The Reputation System doesn't need to change. People need to stop obsessing over it.
quote:Thinking it is pointless is _exactly_ why this forum is going downhill IMO.
Originally posted by L. Coyote
But even that is just pointless, IMO.
It has been too long going on already (the ignoring part, and "its pointless anyway so why bother" thoughts, etc...)
------
quote:True. But people will only be banned when they break the rules again. Nobody was ever banned from the first time, even second time, and even third time... The mods give people a lot of chances actually...
Originally posted by marc87
And wdz people can change and just because they have a bad rep does'nt mean they cant be trusted and should be banned
------
quote:Which is something I'm not going to be bother anymore with (as many might have noticed lately). I've done that in the past too long. IMHO, it is time to slam on that table, all this stupid behaviours are gone too far. I cba anymore to be "carefull".
Originally posted by Sunshine
I took the risk of people hating me for "slapping them on the wrist".
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by L. Coyote on 02-21-2007 at 10:04 PM
quote:
Likewise, Sunshine and Cookie.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
PS: L. Coyote, I picked your post to reply to and to make my thought clear for general purpose for everybody to read. So I hope others read it as if it is replied to them and that you don't feel that you're the only one who I 'attack'... The next parts are to be read as a response to everybody (your post was simply usefull to be taken for the means of something to reply to)
(Minus the "attack" part, I don't attack, even if my post sounds angry. I'm just chatting about forum politics.)
quote:Oh, but you linked to the reputation page of a member! How could it not be about neg repping, if not?
Originally posted by Sunshine
Because i wanted to discuss the whole behaviour and not just the neg repping.
That's why everyone jumped in that wagon, after all.Don't get me wrong, it really annoys me when people gang up on newbies.
Yes, this member did nothing bad. Yes, people today are negging for anything. But, if he's only broken a rule (understandable), then the more reason to stick around and learn from the community. If he wants to.
But I'm one who thinks that all these rants focusing on the reputations of new members are the reason why other members actually neg-rep new members. It's putting so much importance in it, that people automatically rep members.
That, and the mistaken idea that the rep system is there for personal reasons or for personal opinions...
quote:I agree that something needs to be done, that it involves people and not the rep system.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Because something needs to be done....
The rep system is not the thing which is/should be discussed here, it is our behaviour what is/should be discussed. But again, it is/was deviated towards the rep system...
However, the rep system is always being brought up in these threads. Why? And I'm not the one who does it, I just follow this trail, as an example of what people do.
Why do people bring it up? Why do they think it's the problem?
Because, like I said before, I think these threads that are supposedly not about the rep system are based on the rep system. Even you acknowledge this. It's giving it too much importance. It's linking community behavior to the reputation system. So people will never learn to discern from neither.
quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine
Yes i did pm that member, told him i understand his confusion as to where a thread should go etc and not to take notice of the negs given. I also asked him to delete his threads that were still unanswered at that point (back then just one got an answer). Those threads were gone later on, i can't see wether he did that himself or if a mod/admin did.
quote:No, you didn't take the easy path. And I'm glad you're not exactly like the countless of other ranters. At least you did something AND ranted.
Originally posted by Sunshine
I did not take the easy path at all...
Some don't take the trouble.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-21-2007 at 10:07 PM
quote:It is not about only giving reputations, it is about the regulars' behaviour as a whole, of which the neg rep giving for that guy is only a clear example of how regulars behave and threat others lately and don't care for order and don't think before doing/saying something.
Originally posted by L. Coyote
quote:Oh, but you linked to the reputation page of a member! How could it not be about neg repping, if not?
Originally posted by Sunshine
Because i wanted to discuss the whole behaviour and not just the neg repping.
quote:As you said futher in your post, they are not focussed on the reps at all.
Originally posted by L. Coyote
But I'm one who thinks that all these rants focusing on the reputations of new members are the reason why other members actually neg-rep new members.
As I said somewhere earlier in this thread: these rants tend to deviate to the reputation system and totally go past the main issue, because others are focussing on it, not the 'rant' starters...
And that is also one of the issues: people gang up, and above all don't think further what the consequences might be or if it is right or wrong before doing something, etc (and I'm not talking about the new members here, for those who still might not get it)...
quote:Because they don't see that the problem is themselfs
Originally posted by L. Coyote
However, the rep system is always being brought up in these threads. Why? And I'm not the one who does it, I just follow this trail, as an example of what people do.
Why do people bring it up? Why do they think it's the problem?
quote:Not at all. They are totally based upon the behaviour of people. Read some of the previous rants, it will make it clear. They always started because some stupid/immature/not-thinking-thru behaviour...
Originally posted by L. Coyote
Because, like I said before, I think these threads that are supposedly not about the rep system are based on the rep system.
The abusing of rep system is only a small, but a clear, example...
quote:Even if the rep system wasn't there, the behaviour and acting of people would still be the same. And that is the whole issue which some people don't understand...
Originally posted by L. Coyote
Even you acknowledge this. It's giving it too much importance. It's linking community behavior to the reputation system. So people will never learn to discern from neither.
The rep system shouldn't be discussed, it is fine as it is. It is the acting and general attitude which need to be discussed...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by L. Coyote on 02-21-2007 at 10:16 PM
quote:I know, I know. But I also said this:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It is not about only giving reputations, it is about the regulars' behaviour as a whole, of which the neg rep giving for that guy is only a clear example.
quote:I actually replied to Sunshine first and then quoted you, so that part you quoted probably didn't make any sense...
Originally posted by L. Coyote
However, the rep system is always being brought up in these threads. Why? And I'm not the one who does it, I just follow this trail, as an example of what people do.
[...]
Because, like I said before, I think these threads that are supposedly not about the rep system are based on the rep system. Even you acknowledge this. It's giving it too much importance. It's linking community behavior to the reputation system. So people will never learn to discern from neither.
What I meant to say, is that if she wanted to speak about behavior, she wasn't helping the issue by linking to a reputation page. Because... [insert those quotes above]
That's it, it's what I think of the matter.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-21-2007 at 10:23 PM
Shit, I was afraid you would already replied... I didn't read your entire post before starting to reply. My post is now edited (while you posted your reply).... I should not have pressed 'post' before I actually finished...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Voldemort on 02-21-2007 at 10:28 PM
@ menthix's suggestion http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=71...d=791795#pid791795
I think members with less than 10 posts (including t&t) should not be reppable, you hardly know them.
I also think that neg repped people should not be able to rep, as they massively pos rep people and they feel compelled to return the rep and the spammer/neg repped gets a huge unjustified pos rep.
I think it's not the negative reps that harm, but the comments to the rep profile linked above.
edit:
You may think of me as an asshole. I do not mind. I strive to be honest and write what I think, even if that costs me my positive rep or my permanence in this forum.
edit 2: this is what i meant above:
"Fecking hell.."
Negatives are okay, being aggresive in them is not.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by WDZ on 02-21-2007 at 10:30 PM
quote:No, I don't think so. There may be a bit of a trade-off, but that's the case with lots of things. I think the members with the ability to give reps just need to be careful to make sure they're fair and justified.
Originally posted by Sunshine
Do the innocent new members have to suffer because of the non-innocent ones?
quote:Of course not.
Is it justified to tell them to die and make sexual assumptions in reps?
Reps like that will not be tolerated, and deleted ASAP.quote:Clearly confused? Umm... ok...
This guy clearly was confused as to where his thread should go and didn't want it to go unnoticed.
quote:So? He still did something wrong, just not those things.
Nowhere did he flame anyone, spam a porn link or existing threads nor did he advertise in any sense of the word!
quote:First they'd probably ask themselves if they would post a thread 5 times, and the answer would probably be no.
Seriously is there no respect at all anymore? To those who think this kind of behaviour is the correct one ask yourself if you would like to be treated that way yourself.
I guess what I mean by that is: the more experienced forum users often don't understand how the newbie mind works. What may be an innocent mistake can be perceived as something mischievous. Personally, I have a hard time understanding how someone can spam the forums with five duplicate threads and think it's acceptable.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Sunshine on 02-21-2007 at 10:32 PM
quote:I have put that link there exactly for the reason Cookie gave in his post. It is a startingpoint, an example on how the behaviour is.
Originally posted by L. Coyote
What I meant to say, is that if she wanted to speak about behavior, she wasn't helping the issue by linking to a reputation page. Because... [insert those quotes above]
quote:Thank you. I don't think i'm known to rant over nothing either (if i was i'd understand it if my rant wasn't taken seriously)
No, you didn't take the easy path. And I'm glad you're not exactly like the countless of other ranters. At least you did something AND ranted.
quote:Deleting them won't teach the one who gave the rep anything. As i said before..i'm sorry i didn't screenie the reps when i started this thread now, you'd see why i started this thread if i had. Instead i chose the hard way and used them as an example trying to make people see they are in the wrong..i prefer them realising that and deleting the rep themselves over a "cover up" (in the end it saves you work aswell, they shouldn't have been made in the first place..if the one who got the rep has read it the harm has been done already too).
Originally posted by WDZ
Of course not. Reps like that will not be tolerated, and deleted ASAP.
quote:He received flaming in return (the things i mentioned earlier).
So? He still did something wrong, just not those things.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Nagamasa on 02-21-2007 at 10:36 PM
quote:Agree...
Originally posted by MenthiX
Suggestion to WDZ: Disable repping people with less than XX posts
quote:If I remember correctly, you were advised to read the rules when you sign up...
Originally posted by marc87
Oh and i just found the rules today. So ill behave and try not to spam anymore.
quote:I'm just going to EBFL as an example here. He was way below the neutral line when he signed up, and now he has gone way above 20 rep...so if the auto-ban was used, then he would've been banned, along with a lot of other people.
Originally posted by WDZ
Some boards out there actually auto-ban people based on reputation,
quote:I cant script. I see myself having more than 100 posts, though it took me around 2 months...
Originally posted by marc87
well its alot harder posting 100 things seeing as im not a scripter i was just giving my opinion on it >.<
quote:3 months to update for all reps? This would make all the information up-to-date. And a pop-up box for this would be nice too.
Originally posted by Plik
Also how about reps expireing after a certain amount of time active in the forum, as some people have been mass neg repped, then changed yet they still have some neg reps left over, because people forget the change them.
quote:that just makes matters worse. Look at what plus! (aka krissy) did when it got 100 posts...
Originally posted by marc87
reps back easier
quote:not really...the rules don't directly specify NO NEG-BACKS...
Originally posted by .OxY
quote:
Originally posted by marc87
eople should be able to give reps back easier then having to post 100 posts because some of the people can be a little harsh with some of negging
So you want to give neg-backs? that's against the rules..
quote:If the new member is a good person, then he/she would either provide correct responses, or not respond at all. He/she would also read the rules. And obviously, people have to be able to understand easily as to what you're saying (e.g., proper grammar!)
Originally posted by marc87
Maybe the staff should have a staff meeting over this and get it sorted quickly. And wdz people can change and just because they have a bad rep does'nt mean they cant be trusted and should be banned
quote:Search for them. Then state, "Please use the search tool at the top of the page prior to posting future help threads..." and a Thank You might help too.
Originally posted by Sunshine
All too often new people get responces like "search!"(with or withouth other bad word to accompany that). Why can't you search for them?
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Voldemort on 02-21-2007 at 10:39 PM
quote:That is one of the spoken rules.
Originally posted by Nagamasa
not really...the rules don't directly specify NO NEG-BACKS...
*shameless plug to my above post*
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=71...d=791991#pid791991
no one would have noticed it, after such long posts.
[16:44] <aaa> the majority of the people on the forums are morons.
Also, it pisses me how some say one thing and do the opposite.
Also, generalizations piss me off
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Svip on 02-21-2007 at 11:01 PM
Can I first of all say how awesome I am? Good.
Now, the reputation system is like Windows. Flawed by design. Therefore it would make sense there should be some more limitations on it. Or do as I would have done... get rid of it.
All that said, you may vote positive for me.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Omar on 02-21-2007 at 11:18 PM
Common courtesy.
Two simple words that mean a whole lot of difference. If you would treat other people the way that you would want to be treated, the world would be a better place. And that works with reps too. Its usually the younger and inexperienced members that place importance upon reps, and it is in my opinion often the suckups or inexperienced members that flock to negrep a screwing up newb.
In my opinion, members screwing up is an item for mods and admin to deal with, not the members. Giving reps is only an indication, and in my opinion should not be used to teach member to behave.
I think that a good option for the repsystem, would be to limit the people that can give out reps. 100 posts is already a good deal, but it doesnīt tell you if anyone is sensible and in general a good member.. so I think the right to give reps should be earned, and should be taken away again when abused.
So in short, I think it is important that negreppers get taken away their ability to rep. Clearly they arenīt worthy of the privilege.
Edit: ooops, sorry, didnīt realise I was logged on as Omar... *is Fanta*
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by surfichris on 02-21-2007 at 11:46 PM
quote:Exactly.
Originally posted by Omar
In my opinion, members screwing up is an item for mods and admin to deal with, not the members.
Which is why people need to report the invalid reputations to us so we can take action against the user - not create threads which bitch and moan about the whole community.
Members who are hassling new members need to be bought to our attention: contact any of the moderators or admins here and we'll look in to it.
The majority of those giving invalid reputations could care less about what an Elite member has to say or any other member regarding it, and that isn't because they haven't read it - it's because they don't care what other people think.
There are clear divisions and groups of people in this forum like that - they have each other on their WLM contact lists, they work on websites together etc. That group sticks together and cares what their group thinks of them - so they'll disregard threads like this.
The only way effective action can be taken place is that you report the reputations to an Administrator where we can make it clear to the users that their actions won't be tolerated: their accounts banned, reputation powers disabled etc.
Bitching and moaning in a thread won't solve anything because as I said, most people could care less about it.
Any reputations people feel are invalid (for yourself or any other user), send me a PM, I'll investigate and remove it as well as keep a list of repeat offenders who I will ban or remove their reputation abilities.
As for the previous discussion of the member who registered here and then decided to spam, it's only normal that people don't have a high opinion of them and negative rep them. Everybody forms opinions of people - if they admit it or not. People form opinions at face value too, deny it or not.
If a member however posts inappropriate comments such as abuse etc. then those aren't considered valid reasons and need to be reported to us however general opinions, as I mentioned above, toward a new member or not should still be valid.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 02:40 AM
So this is again back to the reps....
Is it so hard to see that this is not the main issue here?
And thank you Chris for suggesting that we just bitch and moan...
And of course thank you Shawnz for doing the expected...
Btw, this bitching and moaning is already going on for months. And it gets worse and worse and more frequent, and it is not only a few members (though, maybe only a few dare to speak up, that's another case), you can not deny that.... Even oldtime members who just still lurk here start bitching and moaning about what is being discussed here (before the subject was oh-so-conveniently shifted towards the rep system... again): community behaviour, respect, and those things.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by MeEtc on 02-22-2007 at 02:50 AM
![[Image: Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg]](http://www.boarsheadtavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg)
The horse is dead by now people. why not just let it go? I think it's been argued to death by now...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by surfichris on 02-22-2007 at 04:01 AM
quote:I used the reputations as an example, as they were used at the beginning of the thread.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
So this is again back to the reps....
Is it so hard to see that this is not the main issue here?
What I said also applies just as much to posts, private messages and anything else here.
quote:That's all that has come out of this. After 6 pages of stuff you're still arguing over the one thing and people won't even listen to what you say or anyone else says - so instead of the bitching and moaning you need to report stuff to us so we can proactively enforce things upon members.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
And thank you Chris for suggesting that we just bitch and moan...
[edit] You need to remember that the average age of people on these forums is around 14-15. These 14-15 year olds are not like how they used to be in your day and age (probably more so in yours than mine). People used to show more respect at that age whereas these days patricularly that age group has lower respect for others.
Like I said before, bitching and moaning in these threads accomplishes absolutely nothing - the members don't listen and you won't see any sort of long time improvement.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by deAd on 02-22-2007 at 04:17 AM
quote:Not really...this isn't a true average but it gives enough information: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/statistics.php?page=ages
Originally posted by Chris Boulton
You need to remember that the average age of people on these forums is around 14-15.
EDIT: There is an average on there. Average Age: 22.1
EDIT 2: It must also be taken into account that not everyone posts an age!
However, the rest of what you're saying about the age group still applies, even to many of the members above that age. People also sometimes feel inclined to adopt an I-don't-know-these-people-well-so-I-don't-really-care attitude in many forums around the internet.
This thread should be locked; threads made to change the general behavior of the members always seem to end up in more and more complaining, though they are (usually) created for a good cause.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Joe on 02-22-2007 at 05:03 AM
Been there, posted that, got burned.
This topic will not die because people refuse to change.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 05:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine
I was just reading a thread that was posted on all forums because obviously the poster didn't know where it would fit. Now that isn't good but what i find worst of all is that this person instantly recieves negs for it! None of the ones giving these negs even replied to the guy telling him where the thread should go!!!
Person i'm on about: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/reputation.php?uid=64810
I just read what was put inthere and tbh it's appauling! What has this guy done to be yelled at this much?! Did he yell at you? Did he tell you to" [quoted]die[/quoted]? He came asking for help!
What ever happend to beeing friendly?
In general: All too often new people get responces like "search!"(with or withouth other bad word to accompany that). Why can't you search for them? They are new, give them a break! You are the helper, behave like one! *holds back swearword*
It's this kind of behaviour that gives a forum a bad name!
WOW OMG!! finally someone has said what i have been saying for the last year. I agree so much to you, heaps of people are so so mean to new people, its disgusting.
quote:
Originally posted by chris boulton
Members who are hassling new members need to be bought to our attention: contact any of the moderators or admins here and we'll look in to it.
I think some of the mods turn blind eyes because some of the people hassling new members are regulars and are part of there friendship circle. I could name alot of them.
quote:
Originally posted by voldemort
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nagamasa
not really...the rules don't directly specify NO NEG-BACKS...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is one of the spoken rules.
*shameless plug to my above post*
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=71...d=791991#pid791991
no one would have noticed it, after such long posts.
[16:44] <aaa> the majority of the people on the forums are morons.
Also, it pisses me how some say one thing and do the opposite.
Also, generalizations piss me off
Voldemort your one of the people who neg back.
quote:
[16:44] <aaa> the majority of the people on the forums are morons.
It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by surfichris on 02-22-2007 at 05:29 AM
quote:I essentially meant the average age of those who are active and participating in this kind of stuff, not overall
Originally posted by deAd
Not really...this isn't a true average but it gives enough information: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/statistics.php?page=ages
EDIT: There is an average on there. Average Age: 22.1
EDIT 2: It must also be taken into account that not everyone posts an age!
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 05:43 AM
quote:Wow. Seriously. Fuck off. You've been on IRC like, three times? The first time you decide you want to flame the fuck out of us, then when you come back you expect us to be nice to you? Really?
Originally posted by Discrate
It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons
Not one regular on IRC negatively repped the person mentioned at the start of this topic. Don't bring personal vendettas into this just because we aren't nice to you because you annoyed us first.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by dotNorma on 02-22-2007 at 05:45 AM
Discrate is fine if you ask me.
Im dating him.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Dane on 02-22-2007 at 06:00 AM
This thread is disgustingly overkilled. I dont think ANYONE here has the right to bitch about the way other people act, because guess what, they probably dont like the way you act either. As Chris said, people form opinions of people, and generally the new users to this form pass right through the rules without reading them...not to mention commen sense tells you which forum to post in. The forum will be what we make of it -- bitching about the same stuff over and over again isnt going to change it, if you dont like it, then logout and dont ever log back in or come back.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 06:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dotNorma
Discrate is fine if you ask me.
Im dating him.
lol
Its true quote:
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:Wow. Seriously. Fuck off. You've been on IRC like, three times? The first time you decide you want to flame the fuck out of us, then when you come back you expect us to be nice to you? Really?
Originally posted by Discrate
It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons
Not one regular on IRC negatively repped the person mentioned at the start of this topic. Don't bring personal vendettas into this just because we aren't nice to you because you annoyed us first.[/url]
I am not talking about you guys picking on one person, you guys pick on nearly every new member, and all i am saying is most of you who pick on new members go on the irc.
i have been on irc 3 times? try over 100 times.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 06:05 AM
quote:What new members have we picked on? I'd like examples before you start throwing around senseless claims.
Originally posted by Discrate
I am not talking about you guys picking on one person, you guys pick on nearly every new member, and all i am saying is most of you who pick on new members go on the irc.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by dotNorma on 02-22-2007 at 06:06 AM
The only real problem here is that this exact same thread gets reposted every other month.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by NanaFreak on 02-22-2007 at 06:07 AM
quote:dazmo picks on me
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:What new members have we picked on? I'd like examples before you start throwing around senseless claims.
Originally posted by Discrate
I am not talking about you guys picking on one person, you guys pick on nearly every new member, and all i am saying is most of you who pick on new members go on the irc.
edit: dt does too now
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 06:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:What new members have we picked on? I'd like examples before you start throwing around senseless claims.
Originally posted by Discrate
I am not talking about you guys picking on one person, you guys pick on nearly every new member, and all i am saying is most of you who pick on new members go on the irc.
I do not remember any names, i dont really remember new members names unless there active. oh actually i can remember 1 new member you picked on when he first joined because he did not read the rules and he spammed the forum alot, that members name is "discrate".
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Hank on 02-22-2007 at 06:11 AM
quote:i think it has something to do with it,
Originally posted by Sunshine
HSV: i don't think the rep system is at fault here, if anything i believe those who abuse that system should be punished (repping bannage or complete bannage when theres calling names etc involved)
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 06:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by HSV
quote:i think it has something to do with it,
Originally posted by Sunshine
HSV: i don't think the rep system is at fault here, if anything i believe those who abuse that system should be punished (repping bannage or complete bannage when theres calling names etc involved)
The rep system does not really have anything to do with members picking on new members.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 06:45 AM
quote:ddunk's reply to Official Msgplus Chat Channel?
Originally posted by Discrate
I do not remember any names, i dont really remember new members names unless there active. oh actually i can remember 1 new member you picked on when he first joined because he did not read the rules and he spammed the forum alot, that members name is "discrate".
Deja vu much?
As far as us "picking on you":
![[Image: violin.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/violin.gif)
What we supposedly did to you on the forums (which is the matter on hand here, NOT irc) when you joined the forums two and a half years ago says absolutely nothing about how "most" people from IRC are abusing new members right now. Sure, I admit, we're not perfect, there's bound to be a few shots fired and some bad behavior, but no one (or group of people) is (are) perfect. But I can assure you, "most" of the people on IRC are not behind this.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 07:00 AM
quote:
IRC banana channel topic.
Topic is "It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons" << Guess who!?@#!? (it was Discrate for you silly kids who got yourself banned... again)
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 07:17 AM
quote:Great. Now, what relevance does that have?
Originally posted by Discrate
quote:
IRC banana channel topic.
Topic is "It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons" << Guess who!?@#!? (it was Discrate for you silly kids who got yourself banned... again)
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 07:47 AM
quote:Funny as it is exactly that what many regulars already have done, for certain reasons....
Originally posted by Dane
The forum will be what we make of it -- bitching about the same stuff over and over again isnt going to change it, if you dont like it, then logout and dont ever log back in or come back.
quote:This isn't about 1 person, this is about the general community.
Originally posted by ddunk
Not one regular on IRC negatively repped the person mentioned at the start of this topic.
Talking about IRC: Funny as it is again exactly why many regulars already have left IRC, for certain reasons....
quote:And some people wonder why....
Originally posted by dotNorma
The only real problem here is that this exact same thread gets reposted every other month.
The sole fact that something like this happens 'every month' says enough for me, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that.... And no, it is not that those people like to rant.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 07:49 AM
quote:Funny how many people have left for forums for certain reasons too...
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Talking about IRC: Funny as it is again exactly why many regulars already have left IRC, for certain reasons....
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 07:59 AM
quote:You wanna start comparing or something and mentioning names? You would be realy surprised to know how many people already left for the reasons talked about in these 'rants'.
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:Funny how many people have left for forums for certain reasons too...
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Talking about IRC: Funny as it is again exactly why many regulars already have left IRC, for certain reasons....
Or maybe that is just it, some are too ignorant to even see that they drive people away with their immature and crap behaviours.
And the point is that not much is done about it, instead constantly "whatever", "its the time of the month", "old news", and other ignoring thougts are posted when someone tries to speak up and do something about it.
FYI, those rant threads will not go away and will only popup more regulary.
Also, closing this thread is not going to fix those problems either.
RE: RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 08:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:You wanna start comparing or something and mentioning names? You would be realy surprised to know how many people already left for the reasons talked about in these 'rants'.
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:Funny how many people have left for forums for certain reasons too...
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Talking about IRC: Funny as it is again exactly why many regulars already have left IRC, for certain reasons....
Or maybe that is just it, some are too ignorant to even see that they drive people away with their immature and crap behaviours.
And the point is that not much is done about it, instead constantly "whatever", "its the time of the month", "old news", and other ignoring thougts are posted when someone tries to speak up and do something about it.
FYI, those rant threads will not go away and will only popup more regulary.
Also, closing this thread is not going to fix those problems either.
I agree with everything your saying! hardly anything is done.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vilkku on 02-22-2007 at 08:12 AM
Seems like I am going to post here after all, even if I said to myself that I would stay out of this thread. Without agreeing or disagreeing, let me post a quick comment:
quote:Even if we pick on new members in #banana it shouldn't be related back here, I know this might sound silly but #banana isn't officially related to Plus! anymore, it's just the most popular chat channel where the members meet. There is an official chat channel (#msgplus.chat), and if you would get picked on there you could report us and we would deserve getting banned.
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:Wow. Seriously. Fuck off. You've been on IRC like, three times? The first time you decide you want to flame the fuck out of us, then when you come back you expect us to be nice to you? Really?
Originally posted by Discrate
It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons
Not one regular on IRC negatively repped the person mentioned at the start of this topic. Don't bring personal vendettas into this just because we aren't nice to you because you annoyed us first.
On the forums I try to act as properly as possible, not "flaming" people for doing various things (I many, however, rant a bit about it on #banana, because that is somewhere else). If the member happens to be in that channel, he will of course get insulted, but he doesn't have to drag it to the forums.
In short, what I am trying to say is what is happening in #banana should be kept in #banana and not be dragged to the forums.
And now I'm gonna try to make and example of what I mean, which will probably be extremely bad:
Imagine that you are in a classroom (this is the forum), and you start talking crap about the teacher (and somehow breaking the school rules that say that no craptalking of teachers is allowed). You would then be taken to the principals office.
Now, on the break (official MsgPlus IRC channels) you and your friends are talking crap about the teacher, but no teacher is there so nothing happens to you - but if a teacher came or someone would tell about it to a teacher you would be again taken to the principals office because you were in school.
Finally, after school somewhere else (unofficial IRC channels), you and your friends are of course talking about the teacher. Suddenly, the teacher walks in and hears everything. But because it's not in school he can't enforce the school rules and nothing would happen to you, except your relation to the teacher would become worse. So, stuff you do outside school would carry over to school, but the consequences wouldn't be the same.
Because this example is so great, I will also use it to show how generalizing is bad:
Say the place outside school was a popular gathering place for the students, and the teacher would know this. He would assume that everyone is there, so next day in school he mentions that he is disappointed because all students are unfriendly towards him, even if a part of the class haven't ever been to the place. Also, some students might have been doing something else, so they were falsely accused.
I don't feel like I am being rude towards new members, so some times when someone says that "the people on IRC are morons" I feel falsely accused. However, if I'm rightly accused for doing something I need to be able to accept it. I'm guessing others are feeling like this as well.
None of my comments were aimed at anyone particular, and the examples are made up by me (that's why they are silly). I would also appreciate if you didn't quote me as "people on IRC" either.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by haydos on 02-22-2007 at 08:13 AM
quote:You win one internets. If people feel that it's just to give a neg - such as this case, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to. As long as it's to be helpful I don't see anything wrong with it.
Originally posted by Voldemort
Negatives are okay, being aggresive in them is not.
RE: RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 08:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Vilkku
Seems like I am going to post here after all, even if I said to myself that I would stay out of this thread. Without agreeing or disagreeing, let me post a quick comment:
quote:Even if we pick on new members in #banana it shouldn't be related back here, I know this might sound silly but #banana isn't officially related to Plus! anymore, it's just the most popular chat channel where the members meet. There is an official chat channel (#msgplus.chat), and if you would get picked on there you could report us and we would deserve getting banned.
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:Wow. Seriously. Fuck off. You've been on IRC like, three times? The first time you decide you want to flame the fuck out of us, then when you come back you expect us to be nice to you? Really?
Originally posted by Discrate
It mostly the people who hang around on the irc who pick on the new members, so really most of you guys are morons
Not one regular on IRC negatively repped the person mentioned at the start of this topic. Don't bring personal vendettas into this just because we aren't nice to you because you annoyed us first.
On the forums I try to act as properly as possible, not "flaming" people for doing various things (I many, however, rant a bit about it on #banana, because that is somewhere else). If the member happens to be in that channel, he will of course get insulted, but he doesn't have to drag it to the forums.
In short, what I am trying to say is what is happening in #banana should be kept in #banana and not be dragged to the forums.
And now I'm gonna try to make and example of what I mean, which will probably be extremely bad:
Imagine that you are in a classroom (this is the forum), and you start talking crap about the teacher (and somehow breaking the school rules that say that no craptalking of teachers is allowed). You would then be taken to the principals office.
Now, on the break (official MsgPlus IRC channels) you and your friends are talking crap about the teacher, but no teacher is there so nothing happens to you - but if a teacher came or someone would tell about it to a teacher you would be again taken to the principals office because you were in school.
Finally, after school somewhere else (unofficial IRC channels), you and your friends are of course talking about the teacher. Suddenly, the teacher walks in and hears everything. But because it's not in school he can't enforce the school rules and nothing would happen to you, except your relation to the teacher would become worse. So, stuff you do outside school would carry over to school, but the consequences wouldn't be the same.
Because this example is so great, I will also use it to show how generalizing is bad:
Say the place outside school was a popular gathering place for the students, and the teacher would know this. He would assume that everyone is there, so next day in school he mentions that he is disappointed because all students are unfriendly towards him, even if a part of the class haven't ever been to the place. Also, some students might have been doing something else, so they were falsely accused.
I don't feel like I am being rude towards new members, so some times when someone says that "the people on IRC are morons" I feel falsely accused. However, if I'm rightly accused for doing something I need to be able to accept it. I'm guessing others are feeling like this as well.
None of my comments were aimed at anyone particular, and the examples are made up by me (that's why they are silly). I would also appreciate if you didn't quote me as "people on IRC" either.
We are not talking about how new members get picked on in the irc..... we are talking about how most of the members who pick on new member are from the irc.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 08:19 AM
quote:on the subject of #banana. I think many have forgotten the reason why #banana was 'split' from the official Plus! channels in the first place. Guess what... it was the result of the exact same reasons why people make these rant threads. And as a 'solution' #banana was declared 'non-Plus! related' (as if that solved the underlying problems.... apparently not).
Originally posted by Vilkku
In short, what I am trying to say is what is happening in #banana should be kept in #banana and not be dragged to the forums.
quote:Your example unfortunatly shows two things:
Originally posted by Vilkku
Now, on the break (official MsgPlus IRC channels) you and your friends are talking crap about the teacher, but no teacher is there so nothing happens to you - but if a teacher came or someone would tell about it to a teacher you would be again taken to the principals office because you were in school.
Finally, after school somewhere else (unofficial IRC channels), you and your friends are of course talking about the teacher. Suddenly, the teacher walks in and hears everything. But because it's not in school he can't enforce the school rules and nothing would happen to you, except your relation to the teacher would become worse. So, stuff you do outside school would carry over to school, but the consequences wouldn't be the same.
1) it is very hypocritical of those students
2) you tell exactly what people always have said in these rant threads: even if something negativly is done on #banana it has consequences on other (official) media/channels as well. It is the whole package: aka community. It is not because #banana is not 'official' anymore, that people all of a sudden can act like asses and talk behind other people's backs.
I'm not saying everybody on #banana does it, but it is part of the big issue: the attitude of the people in _general_. Thank god there are still people amung them too who don't act like ignorant brats thinking it is cool to be an ass.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 08:22 AM
quote:THEY AREN'T
Originally posted by Discrate
We are not talking about how new members get picked on in the irc..... we are talking about how most of the members who pick on new member are from the irc.
Just because you had some bad experience two years ago MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NOW.
Apparently you didn't read my reply last time, so here it is again.
quote:Plus, you do exactly what Vilkku was making a point about.
Originally posted by me
What we supposedly did to you on the forums (which is the matter on hand here, NOT irc) when you joined the forums two and a half years ago says absolutely nothing about how "most" people from IRC are abusing new members right now. Sure, I admit, we're not perfect, there's bound to be a few shots fired and some bad behavior, but no one (or group of people) is (are) perfect. But I can assure you, "most" of the people on IRC are not behind this.
quote:
Originally posted by Vilkku
Because this example is so great, I will also use it to show how generalizing is bad:
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Vilkku on 02-22-2007 at 08:23 AM
quote:Does that have any relevance?
Originally posted by Discrate
We are not talking about how new members get picked on in the irc..... we are talking about how most of the members who pick on new member are from the irc.
quote:You are actually helping me prove my point. Let's play with this idea: would a similar channel on another network be any better, if the same kinds of discussions continued?
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I think many have forgotten the reason why #banana was 'split' from the official Plus! channels in the first place. Guess what... it was the result of the exact same reasons why people make these rant threads. And as a 'solution' #banana was declared 'non-Plus! related' (as if that solved the underlying problems.... apparently not).
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 08:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ddunk
quote:THEY AREN'T
Originally posted by Discrate
We are not talking about how new members get picked on in the irc..... we are talking about how most of the members who pick on new member are from the irc.
Just because you had some bad experience two years ago MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NOW.
Apparently you didn't read my reply last time, so here it is again.
quote:
Originally posted by me
What we supposedly did to you on the forums (which is the matter on hand here, NOT irc) when you joined the forums two and a half years ago says absolutely nothing about how "most" people from IRC are abusing new members right now. Sure, I admit, we're not perfect, there's bound to be a few shots fired and some bad behavior, but no one (or group of people) is (are) perfect. But I can assure you, "most" of the people on IRC are not behind this.
I did read your last post, and i am not making that statement on the experinces i had when i first joined i am basing my statement on what i have seen time and time again.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by ddunk on 02-22-2007 at 08:33 AM
quote:Okay, so we'll believe that's true for a few minutes. What would you suggest we (IRC) do about it?
Originally posted by Discrate
I did read your last post, and i am not making that statement on the experinces i had when i first joined i am basing my statement on what i have seen time and time again.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 08:36 AM
Could you please put that question another way for me.
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 08:36 AM
quote:No it wouldn't be any better, because that is not the issue here. The issue is the attidude of people. And indeed, some people I speak about are indeed regular member of #banana too. The channel that has been declared 'non-grata' exactly because of the reasons talked about in these rants.
Originally posted by Vilkku
quote:You are actually helping me prove my point. Let's play with this idea: would a similar channel on another network be any better, if the same kinds of discussions continued?
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I think many have forgotten the reason why #banana was 'split' from the official Plus! channels in the first place. Guess what... it was the result of the exact same reasons why people make these rant threads. And as a 'solution' #banana was declared 'non-Plus! related' (as if that solved the underlying problems.... apparently not).
But declaring it 'non-grata' doesn't change the attitude of people on it (and off it!), just as closing threads like this don't solve anything, just as ignoring all this doesn't solve anything.
And that is what this is about, the attidude that many people (not all!) have these days towards other people, new and old. The fact that fewer and fewer can accept when things don't go their way. The fact that as soon as they get to be 'regular' they start acting like brats and forget they were once newbies too. The fact that people don't bother about what happens in the community. The fact that some people don't think before doing something. The fact that it is apparently considered cool to jump on people. The fact that it is considered normal to spam, laugh in people's faces, not report stuff and ignore rules and even guidelines. The fact that for some people common sense seems far away these days...
Selfishness, disrespectfullness, lazyness, ignorance, etc are all words which are heared more and more.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by user44571 on 02-22-2007 at 08:37 AM
quote:Er, it was pretty straightforward..
Originally posted by Discrate
Could you please put that question another way for me.
Imagine it is the oh so evil banana users doing this, what do you suggest we do about it?
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Discrate on 02-22-2007 at 08:40 AM
Hmmm. i think it would be up to the mods to decide, but i think that the mods should warn the persons then if they continue, ban them.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 08:43 AM
quote:It doesn't matter who does it or where they come from or what their background is... All this just as much applies to people who never visited #banana.
Originally posted by Damokun
quote:Er, it was pretty straightforward..
Originally posted by Discrate
Could you please put that question another way for me.
Imagine it is the oh so evil banana users doing this, what do you suggest we do about it?
What you need to do is changing the attitude.
But maybe you'd except an answer like "switch the channel to network X" or "restrict the use of that". But the real answer is to change the people's attitude, not changing some software or hardware... Although changing some software or hardware might help in getting people aware of what they are doing is not good, it is not an absolute solution, but it is a start. Another start is speaking up instead of ignoring what is happening all around.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Underlord on 02-22-2007 at 09:01 AM
quote:How are the students being hypocritical?
Originally posted by CookieRevised
1) it is very hypocritical of those students
RE: RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by CookieRevised on 02-22-2007 at 09:04 AM
quote:acting all nicely but talking behind the teacher's back...
Originally posted by Underlord
quote:How are the students being hypocritical?
Originally posted by CookieRevised
1) it is very hypocritical of those students
PS: but just as much as this thread once shifted only towards to the rep system and forgetting the main thing, this shouldn't be about #banana either. The rep system and #banana are just small examples of the big picture.
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by Underlord on 02-22-2007 at 09:07 AM
quote:I see. Though, I wouldn't quite call it hypocrisy.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
acting all nicely but talking behind the teacher's back...
RE: Members behaviour towards new people! by surfichris on 02-22-2007 at 10:22 AM
quote:Keeping this thread open is not going to do the community any good either and it's just going around and around in circles because as I said before people don't/aren't listening to what others have to say.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Also, closing this thread is not going to fix those problems either.
I'm closing it.
As I previously mentioned, anyone who is feeling bullied, anyone you think is being bullied or hassled then please contact WDZ, wj or myself and we'll look in to it and take action.
In regards to the quality of posts and such here, then make sure you're reporting them if they're spam or violate the rules.
If people aren't following the rules, they'll be banned. If they continue to break the rules they'll continue to be banned until it becomes permanent.