i found that there are some way to check who appear offline but who have login.

when we login to WLM, in our contact list , we can see other people' display picture.  client to ask for the display picture even he/she appear offline. but still do that.. ,so can check who appear offline or not??


thank in advance.

No, its not possible at all, not even with a script.

and besides it's a breach of privacy for scripts like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacen
and besides it's a breach of privacy for scripts like that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by singying304
which?

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quote:

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Originally posted by singying304
i found that there are some way to check who appear offline but who have login.

when we login to WLM, in our contact list , we can see other people' display picture.  client to ask for the display picture even he/she appear offline. but still do that.. ,so can check who appear offline or not??


thank in advance.

---

People set their status to Appear Offline because they don't want to be disturbed or whatever other reason they have for it. It's their own choice to do that, and therefore stealing that privilege would be considered as a breach of privacy.

Technically, this isn't possible either. There's no way you can distinguish an offline person from someone who is appearing offline, due to the way the protocol and server handles this.

Technically speaking: yes IT IS POSSIBLE.

Direct connections are always being established between you and your contact, when a display picture, for example is updated.

If those packets of data can be traced from source, then yes, its very much possible.

Yes, it is possible, because as some said, Messenger does look for the DPs of people who are appearing offline.
But this method would be inaccurate, because AFAIK WLM does these checks randomly, you can't force WLM to check for people's DPs and it would only work for those who have set one.

As for the 'breach of privacy' argument, this depends on how you look at the issue. The data is sent from your contacts Messenger to your Messenger in any case, it just depends on what you do with this data.
I won't say you're not invading their privacy, because is some way you are, but for me it's rather a question of respect.
If you know this person is appearing offline, that he probably has his reasons for appearing offline, and if you respect him, you won't disturb him.

Same applies to conversation notifiers, you could say you are invading their privacy, but it again depends on how you look at it.
For example when my session notifier pops up (e.g. when WLM checks for a contact's DP (hint)) and I see that this person isn't online, I won't spam him just because I could.


Because this might have become unclear:
There ARE some ways to check if someone is appearing offline, but they are all unreliable / inaccurate.

Technically if you change your DP to a random named image the other client will request it and open a session to transfer the image. You can compare the email of the contacts downloading the image to the status on  your list and bingo.

Technically that will work however I haven't done this yet with packet sniffing to see what happens when you change the DP.

Sorry, but if the person that is offline doesn't change the DP???
Sometimes I don't change it, for example (edit: when I'm offline)...

quote:

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Originally posted by andrey
Yes, it is possible, because as some said, Messenger does look for the DPs of people who are appearing offline.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MicroWay
Sorry, but if the person that is offline doesn't change the DP???

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Contact A is Online
Contact B is Offline
Contact C is Appearing Offline

I change my DP to one that has NEVER been used before. Server gets notified of the DP change. Server notifies contacts on my list of the change. Contact A and Contact C open a session to download the DP.

quote:

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Originally posted by Matty
Contact A is Online
Contact B is Offline
Contact C is Appearing Offline

I change my DP to one that has NEVER been used before. Server gets notified of the DP change. Server notifies contacts on my list of the change. Contact A and Contact C open a session to download the DP.

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I am not saying that Contact C change his DP. I am saying I change my DP and the server informs the contacts that I have a new DP and they open a session and download it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Matty
I am not saying that Contact C change his DP. I am saying I change my DP and the server informs the contacts that I have a new DP and they open a session and download it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
to what andrey and MicroWay suggested....

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I personally don't think its impossible. Simply put the protocol limits all the possibility of this.

My theory is that if I change my DP the server tells all my contacts that I changed it and they open a connection and download the updated display picture. Especially if you Sign out and back in once your Display Picture shows on the toast popup (side note: where did we come up with the name toast?) it will redownload the latest display picture. Once a session has been opened with you, you can check the status based on the email of the contact that has opened a session with you.

This in theory should work because if they are offline they can't open a session with you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Matty
I personally don't think its impossible. Simply put the protocol limits all the possibility of this.

My theory is that if I change my DP the server tells all my contacts that I changed it and they open a connection and download the updated display picture. Especially if you Sign out and back in once your Display Picture shows on the toast popup (side note: where did we come up with the name toast?) it will redownload the latest display picture. Once a session has been opened with you, you can check the status based on the email of the contact that has opened a session with you.

This in theory should work because if they are offline they can't open a session with you.

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Ok, since there seems to be misinformation and/or confusion on who said what:

The method/way to know if someone is appearing offline, talked about by andrey and a remark/question about it by MicroWay, which is: detecting DP change packets from appearing offline contacts will not work because, as I said, you will not recieve any DP changes from contacts who are appearing offline since your own Messenger does not request DP updates from contacts who are (appearing) offline.

However, the method/way talked about by Matty, which is: changing your own DP and detecting connections from people and comparing them with their statusses will work. This method has also been described a long time ago when 'Open Window Notifiers' discussions popped up and when trying to find a more/better use for them. However, that will also not show you all contacts who are appearing offline though: if you do recieve such a notice you may be certain that the person is appearing offline. If you do not recieve such a notice, you can not be certain; the person could still be apearing offline.

quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
However, the method/way talked about by Matty, which is: changing your own DP and detecting connections from people and comparing them with their statusses will work. This method has also been described a long time ago when 'Open Window Notifiers' discussions popped up and when trying to find a more/better use for them. However, that will also not show you all contacts who are appearing offline though: if you do recieve such a notice you may be certain that the person is appearing offline. If you do not recieve such a notice, you can not be certain; the person could still be apearing offline.

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So there is a hope to such a script being made???

quote:

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Originally posted by Matty

quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
However, the method/way talked about by Matty, which is: changing your own DP and detecting connections from people and comparing them with their statusses will work. This method has also been described a long time ago when 'Open Window Notifiers' discussions popped up and when trying to find a more/better use for them. However, that will also not show you all contacts who are appearing offline though: if you do recieve such a notice you may be certain that the person is appearing offline. If you do not recieve such a notice, you can not be certain; the person could still be apearing offline.

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Exactly hence why I said Sign Out and back in or go Appear Offline then Online yourself. That will force a toast to be displayed and the contacts will be forced to open a session with you to get the new display picture.

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What Hopper does is blocking everybody except who you want to send the toasts to and then setting your status offline/online a few times. blocking/unblocking the contact a few times.

All that is really not needed and overdoing it imho. And not really useable with large contact lists anyways if you want to check all contacts. Even with setting your status to appear offline and back to online it doesn't always work since this isn't a garantuee that an open session will be created.

But who said anything about detecting blocking?

This is exactly why 'open window notifiers' and all the other things, like a possible 'detect appearing offline contacts', should only be made and be used with great care... and as such I'm personally not very fond of such tools in the wild at all, even just for this sole reason only; They are used more inappropriately than that they are used and interpreted properly. See all the 'open window notifier' hypes and discussions. This has a big potential of getting on the same road.

When someone is appearing offline it does not automatically mean they are blocking you though. Please do not make such assumptions.



EDIT: corrected big mistake, thanks to Mnjul for pointing that out

quote:

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Originally posted by andrey
Yes, it is possible, because as some said, Messenger does look for the DPs of people who are appearing offline.
But this method would be inaccurate, because AFAIK WLM does these checks randomly, you can't force WLM to check for people's DPs and it would only work for those who have set one.

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This sounds very promising. Well, I'd say: go on and try, and keep us informed. We know you can do it, Matty!

[OFFTOPIC]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matty
(side note: where did we come up with the name toast?)

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I tried the thing I suggested w/hopper live, and it turns out that you don't even get toasts from blocked contacts... (or so my tester claimed... lol)
Also, if somebody gets a toast from you, the conversation opener detection thingy doesn't tell you they opened a conversation... unfortunately.
Now somebody else suggested the contact card idea... and I'm going to get right on that and test it... with more than one contact! =D

*Disclaimer: I agree w/Cookie in such a way that that these could be bad, because it's a void of privacy. I'm just curious and love finding ways around things...

quote:

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When someone is appearing offline it does NOT automatically mean they are blocking you. Please do not make such assumptions.

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Update:

Contact card isn't working either...

Anybody else think of something new we can try?

well.....there is a way for doing such a thing...but it's not really a whos's apearing off line thnigy......it would go like this...if u have someones IP, and it's not  dynamic IP, by certan ways u could technically check if the PC with folowing IP is online, but that doesn't mean that he is appearing offline on msn, he could be offline for reall so that's all i can think of 'bout that........and 'bout the who block me scripts, u could do that! just make a script which will connect on ur other e-mail, and add all of ur contacts in other msn list and if they accept u could made a script which will check wich contacts is on line on one msn list but offline on the other...and that's possible ONLY if they accept ur other msn account...just a suggestion for those thing.... btw, sorry ;bot my english it sucks, and sory if i have just sayd somthing stupid above....i don't know anything 'bout this things

Most of those idea's we've already tried, but here's another one:

We could take their IP, scan the ports to see what ones are being used, see what port's are being used, and check whatever port MSN uses...
Although if a friend/family member was signed in, then that wouldn't work... So I guess we still need to find another thing like the contact cards and such...
Or a combination of both....

what about links in PSM? like song links? u can make your own keywords for seaching, maybe there is some conections in that.....like PSM is for somthing hot for MSN which evrybody would like to see and the search is false, but when they click on it maybe there is some way to catch who is offline....?

Well if their Song in their PSM is changing, then you'd know they're really online...

Oh wait, you mean like make your own, and then THEY'D see it and click it?

*BINGO* I just came up with a great idea.
I'll post back if it works.

Yah I tmean like if yhe appearing offline persone is clicking the link.....
HOLP it will work, that idea u just came up whit!! Good luck Steel Froggy! !
Give us some good news !
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Anyway! post here ur idea so we could know which one could be done, and wich couldn't anyway, I'm a prrety new member, so if anybody who 's been watching this  postos, should write down the things that maybe could be done, and those which can not be done for sure ! so we can think of the new ways of doing that
if nobody wanna, I will do it !

Only a little problem: I don't think most of people would click on the Music Link on PSM... (In example -> me)
You have to think in a way that all / most contacts should indirectly "tell" when they are as offline. Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas and I'm starting to think that Microsoft was smart this time -> as no ones discovered a way till now...

But be free to try on...

quote:

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Originally posted by Luka88bg
Yah I tmean like if yhe appearing offline persone is clicking the link.....
HOLP it will work, that idea u just came up whit!! Good luck Steel Froggy! !
Give us some good news !
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Anyway! post here ur idea so we could know which one could be done, and wich couldn't anyway, I'm a prrety new member, so if anybody who 's been watching this  postos, should write down the things that maybe could be done, and those which can not be done for sure ! so we can think of the new ways of doing that
if nobody wanna, I will do it !

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And, I don;t think u understund me totaly.....
Ther's a plugin whit wich u can MAKE YOUR OWNL PSM whic will be same as somebody is listening some song, but u can call it whatever u like, and make a keywords for msn search whatever u like! so if u write somthing VERY intersting in there, most of ur contacts will click on it, thinkig that's a real stuff, but in that case, it wwouldnt work all the time, but only if they click on it !

it look like this:

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Doing something with the links will not work at all. There is no way you can identify somebody by using a link since everybody will recieve the same link anyways. PSMs are not contact-specific.

The only possible way has already been explained several posts ago by Matty.

The reason why contact cards and toasts popping up don't seem to work is because of the display picture. If you do not change that, then you wont recieve an open session notification. If you would have updated the display picture before you did all these 'tests', you would see they do work (if the display picture wasn't already send to your contact prior to your test).

Hence why it was said that changing your display picture is the only (more or less) reliable way, as Matty explained.

CookieRevised i think your right but, it would be nice if there is a way to check that thing out in some other moreeee reliable way......

mayby there is who knows? it would be nice

quote:

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Originally posted by Steel Froggy


What's that plug-in, btw? I'd be interested in it! I have plug-ins where you can make your own song thing, but none where you can pick custom search terms for it.

I'm trying to test my theory, but my friend is being stupid and won't appear offline for me.
I'll post my theory after I test it. I want to be the one who figures it out... I'm just selfish that way.

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Well, my method didn't work, and now that I think about it I probably wasn't thinking when I thought of it, so I won't bother mentioning it. lol

So ya, I guess we need to find out something w/the contact cards and everything, like Cookie and Matty said.

We'll figure this out if it kills us.

well....there is a way for sure, nothing is imposible! just be patient!

Exactly! We WILL find it out.

Well...I got something!
It's like this...with the nudgeToolsScript u can nudge appearnig offline ppl! and also can send automatically nudges....so it would be like this....to made a script which would nudge ALL off ur OFFLINE contacts and then, the conversation will open! they will be suprized when they recive nudges, and possibly send some msg or ask u how did u know he's appearing offline.....or maybe he will close the conversation, but there is a way to see if someone is closed the conversation( one of the options in DiscoveryLive )...and if it could be done, combine this with that thing with DPs and conctact cards.....it would be very good!
it wouldn't be so  realayble, but it could for sure most some of appearing offline contacts ! ! !
maybe that won't work so im waiting for someone who knowes more than me to post something to this......... so......what do u thinh ppl? could it be done?!

Hmm.... the nudging and convy opener/closer might be all we need.

That's a really good idea though! Great thinking!

quote:

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Originally posted by Luka88bg
It's like this...with the nudgeToolsScript u can nudge appearnig offline ppl! and also can send automatically nudges....so it would be like this....to made a script which would nudge ALL off ur OFFLINE contacts and then, the conversation will open! they will be suprized when they recive nudges, and possibly send some msg or ask u how did u know he's appearing offline.....

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well, it wont work, nut if there is someone who is appearing, it might work, I think it's good...if there is someone who is appearing, I think that u vould have a good chance to catch them! welll...could it work? i think it could!

quote:

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Originally posted by Lukas

quote:

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Originally posted by Luka88bg
It's like this...with the nudgeToolsScript u can nudge appearnig offline ppl! and also can send automatically nudges....so it would be like this....to made a script which would nudge ALL off ur OFFLINE contacts and then, the conversation will open! they will be suprized when they recive nudges, and possibly send some msg or ask u how did u know he's appearing offline.....

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and if they are really offline?

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so...could anzone write a script, which would to such a things?

Well, you wouln't need to write an entirely new scripit per say, all you'd need is just to use the two scripts allready made!
Oh, do you have an MSN address?
Actually, maybe we should keep talking on this thread, as to keep it bumped, and there's the fact that somebody else may have something to contribute as well.

well, thez could be combined 2gether, with permision of their authors.....and with some extra work, it could be done, rite?

Yes, it could be done...
However I'm not much of a scripter.... lol
We'd have to ask somebody to help, or maybe one of the authors of the origional script.

There is also another script (don't think it has been metnioned so far) called live notifier (older versions called convo notifier)

This is meant to tell you when someone opens a conversation with you, and it works by telling you when someone opens a session with your msn.

This means it sometimes gives you an alert for a contact that is appearing offline, if their pc opens a session, so i would have thought it would be fairly straightforward to combine this with information about who is online and who is offline, and it could only send you alerts if the person that has opened a session with you seems to be offline.

Has anyone looked at this idea already/does it have any potential?
Thanks

Live Notifier has been mentionned and linked to a lot. There are many threads about it. And many threads explaining the notifications and their accuracy.

As for combining something like this to have a who is appearing offline tool, that is exactly what this whole thread is about and which is explained in detail already in this very same thread.



EDIT (because I wasn't very clear I think, sorry for that): The use of open window notifiers, like Live Notifier was already discussed indirectly in this thread. And Steel Froggy already mentionned the use of open convo notifiers, like Live Notifier, explicitly to make such a "appear offline notifier". Although possible, they still would be somewhat inaccurate (but not so inaccurate as open window notifiers) as already explained in this thread. For more info about open window notifiers, see: "CookieRevised's reply to Question regarding a "close msg window logger"".

Alright, I suppose I should post an update.

With the Nudge Tools script, it doesn't do anything unless they have your conversation opened, and active (IE up front). We tried just talking to the other person, then nudging them, etc. etc., but the Convy notifier still didn't pick up anything.

Does this mean that when you appear offline it doesn't open a session, or that it uses some other way than the online contacts?
*Notes to self: Why doesn't the conversation notifier tell you a chat is opened if YOU send the contact a message in the first place?
     -- Is this made like that purposely by Microsoft, or by the scripters assuming that you know the chat is opened since you just talked to them?
     -- If it's the scripters, or if the feature simply isn't added in the first place, would this be possible to do? If so, is there a way to filter the notifications for offline contacts only?

Or is all this simply impossible?

I mean think about it. When you talk to somebody and they have the conversation notifier, it'll tell them that a chat is opened (Even if you're offline, you still get that notification). Also if somebody appearing offline opens a conversation with you, (I think) you're told about it, correct? So regardless of either person appearing offline, a chat session is opened for both sides.

Conclusion:
So, couldn't the conversation notifier be modified to tell you if a session is opened, EVEN IF you opened it yourself?
If that part works, we can filter it to offline contacts at a later time. Plus, if they really ARE offline, then the session wouldn't be opened in the first place!

*Note: Everything in this post is copyrighted to Steel Froggy & LifesRiver.net. If somebody wishes to make this BRILLIANT idea, feel free to do so. However I must be a beta tester.

lolz

Bump

All that time in that post... all those thoughts and all that INSPIRATION! lolz....

Anybody?

sounds a plausible idea - who can write a script to test it?

quote:

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Originally posted by Steel Froggy
Does this mean that when you appear offline it doesn't open a session, or that it uses some other way than the online contacts?

---

Hmmm that's true.

But if the offline contact talks to you, does it not still say $nick says: ?

So then that one would use the same type of connection, correct?

Couldnt you just ping the person to see....?

quote:

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Originally posted by porkster1364
Couldnt you just ping the person to see....?

---

Even if they weren't on a Router, their sibling/parent could be on the computer, checking their e-mails or something.

Hello,

I am new here and I have read the whole thread. I also read at another website that it is possible to get a notification when an "Appear Offline" contact signs out that sais "Contact X is not online anymore". So in other words you would know whether they are in Appear Offline only when they are logging out. Has any of you checked this option? Could that work?

Well, if you've read the whole thread (like you've stated) then you'd have your answer.

That's what we're trying to work on as of now.

Ive read quickly through the topic, so i might have missed somthing, but in another forum people said this program worked for discovering appearing offline contacts

http://live.msgdiscovery.com/index.php?page=features

I haven't dl it yet, so i'm not sure yet. My intrenet is going to slow.... could somone cheak if it works for them?

I have just downloaded it, and it looks good, although I can't find an option anywhere to tell you when someone is appearing offline.  On another point, it claims to have an option to tell you when a conversation window is closed, which I thought, according to posts I've read on this forum elsewhere, was not supposed to be possible.  Hmmm...

Anyway, even though I can't find a thing to discover appear offline contacts, it still looks like quite a useful add-on...

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave
On another point, it claims to have an option to tell you when a conversation window is closed, which I thought, according to posts I've read on this forum elsewhere, was not supposed to be possible.  Hmmm...

---

i had i feeling when i wrote that post that you would having something to say on the matter...

Well, a "not-very-cool" way to check if someone is offline or Appear Offline:

Create a new email account, and add that person on your new contact list. Then check if they have added you on their list. Another thing that I have observed is that when you add someone who is on Appear Offline, then by the time they accept you invitation their nickname changes from the address to the nickname (if they have a nickname instead of the email address).

Of course that person must accept your invitation. But I think that most of the people do accept in order to see who that person who added them is.

If that person is on Appear Offline but not in front of the computer at the moment or is indeed Offline and you can't wait in front of the pc to check what happened, use the Event Log. See if they've come online at all and if they have added you to their list.

Of course this is not the best way to check everytime....but it is something anyway!

True, it is something.

I dont really see point to this script, alot of my friends have plus and the only reason they appear offline is to lock messenger, im sure alot of people do this. So even if you do start a conversation with them they wont get the message untill they come back and if they are online and there appearing offline they obviously dont want to be disturbed or dont want to talk to you otherwise they would talk to you while there status is appearing offline.

Sorry for my English, im sure its eligible

The idea is to discover who have signed in, but is with the Appear Offline status....
In other words: it's curiosity talking louder

Of all those idea's I see the most potential in the nudgestoolscript and the notifier for opening a window (don't know if there is one) even if u opened it yourself maybe you could combine this with the close window notifier so if u send a nudge they would ignore it and close the window although if they just leave the window open and ignore u... it doesnt work.

doesn't msn send u a confirmation if the message u send is received on the other side? so i'm thinking maybe u should use the nudgesscript to send a nudge and use the confirmation check if they received it, cause if they are really offline they would not receive it.
this is just an idea of mine, i'm new here so what do u think? is it possible?

I, also read on another site that u can't send file's to people who are offline but u can to people who are appearing offline, but i think this is inaccurate. but maybe u should give it a try.

btw. sorry for my bad english but i'm to lazy to write this all correct

I've just read EVERY page, and this hasn't been asked yet...

What if the user that you wish to check isn't using MSN at all, but more like a 3rd party application? Would these protocols still be used as the ID is an MSN Live ID, or is that (MSN's Protocols) MSN Live specific?

If they are MSN specific, couldn't a scrip be used for those who KNOW that the user they wish to check is not using MSN?

Anyway, it's just a question, as not EVERYONE uses MSN, hell, I use Meebo at work.

All 3rd party clients need to use the same protocol, otherwise they wouldn't work. If a 3rd party program didn't use the same protocol, it would be like someone trying to speak to you in Greek.

Besides, there's no way for you to see what protocol your contacts are using anyway, its sent between them and the MSN servers.

For future reference to anyone who sees this thread again,

There is NO WAY to determine if someone is appearing offline unless they start talking to you.