who's apeering offline? - Printable Version
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+----- Thread: who's apeering offline? (/showthread.php?tid=83680)
who's apeering offline? by hugo46 on 05-12-2008 at 09:53 AM
i look for a script that can tell me if a contact is really offline or just "apeering offline"
thanks
RE: who's apeering offline? by Th3rmal on 05-12-2008 at 09:57 AM
What would be the point of appearing offline if such a script was invented?
There is no such script and there probably never will.
RE: who's apeering offline? by Spunky on 05-12-2008 at 09:58 AM
It can't be done. Except for me 
But seriously, you'll never find something like that on these forums as it's a breach of privacy
RE: who's apeering offline? by MeEtc on 05-12-2008 at 09:58 AM
No, there is no way to determine if a contact is appearing offline, or if they are really offline.
search the forum.
let me repeat:
There is no way to know if a contact is appearing offline
RE: who's apeering offline? by Th3rmal on 05-12-2008 at 10:00 AM
quote:Did you report your find to MS? or are you still "testing"?
Originally posted by SpunkyLoveMuff
It can't be done. Except for me
RE: who's apeering offline? by Spunky on 05-12-2008 at 10:03 AM
Just personal use atm. It doesn't always show people that are offline (A session needs to be initiated first), but so far, it has yet to be wrong about someone
RE: who's apeering offline? by mynetx on 05-12-2008 at 10:10 AM
I too have the possibility to see the real status of some of my friends, but as SLM and Adam stated, I won't ever make such stuff public, as it is against the purpose why this function "Appear Offline" was invented at all.
RE: who's apeering offline? by Quantum on 05-12-2008 at 03:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SpunkyLoveMuff
Just personal use atm. It doesn't always show people that are offline (A session needs to be initiated first), but so far, it has yet to be wrong about someone
Will you be sending it to microsoft? I think you should publish it and a belive you would get money out of it.
Can you tell us the basic jist of how it works ?
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-12-2008 at 05:23 PM
it works exactly the same as those open convo notifiers; the principle is just the same. This also means that such things are never ever accurate; eg: if it reports that someone is offline, it might be that the contact is still appearing offline for real (or whatever)... On top of that take in consideration that there can be lags and sometimes drops so that your Messenger doesn't always show the real status of the contact (rare, but it happens)...
So, please guys, we all know what 'problems' those open convo notifiers gave and still are giving, so don't get people's hope up. It will NOT work... Most of the people using such things can not or will not understand the difference (again see open convo notifiers).
RE: who's apeering offline? by DejaVoo on 05-12-2008 at 11:26 PM
Although I don’t necessary disagree that being able to see when someone is appearing offline is a breach of privacy, in my opinion I also think this is slightly hypocritical and that privacy on the net is a bit of a myth considering the fact that so many things are available to us through WLM, MPL, MDL, Stuffplug and many more that could also be considered an invasion of privacy…
For example the first time I discovered that someone could steal my display picture I nearly fell off my fricken chair and walked around for days thinking how rude, I mean I never gave them permission to steal my picture and then use it. Now I have come to the conclusion that that’s just part of life online.
We all have access to programs that enable us to log chats, log events, find out peoples IP addresses, steal pictures etc. I’m sure there are some people with more computer knowledge than myself that could probably find out a lot more than just if I’m appearing offline.
I know quite a few people who use WLM without any addons or scripts who have no clue that someone can log their conversations or steal their pictures so isn’t this then an invasion of their privacy also???
Even though I wouldn’t necessarily want people to know that I’m appearing offline when I do, I’m also resigned to the fact that someone on my contact list may have come across a way to establish this just as SpunkyLoveMuff and Mynetx have.
I want to ask you guys a question, are there no scripts for this because it is an invasion of privacy or is it because there is no way to get around messenger at the moment???
Just curious...
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-12-2008 at 11:38 PM
both... it is a kind of invasion of privacy and there is no way to make it accurate (see rants about "Open Window Notifiers" since they work on almost the same principle)....
RE: who's apeering offline? by DejaVoo on 05-13-2008 at 04:11 AM
Thanks for your response Cookie…
I have read your rant before and it is very informative as are those on why block checkers do not work.
I don’t necessarily want someone to make a script for these as it would make these features null and void really.
Anyway I guess my point was more on the question of the whole invasion on privacy issue when there are so many things already available that invade our privacy.
I believe if there was a way around the messenger protocol someone would have come up with something already, if not on here then somewhere else.
The bigger crime of people who ask these questions all the time is that they are being lazy and not searching the forums as these questions have been asked many times before and have been answered in great detail by all of you…
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-14-2008 at 12:52 PM
quote:like what?
Originally posted by DejaVoo
Anyway I guess my point was more on the question of the whole invasion on privacy issue when there are so many things already available that invade our privacy.
There is nothing in Plus! which would invade the privacy of people.
As for Messenger itself: the 'stealing' of display pictures aren't an invasion of privacy either since you already send the display pictures to your contacts (otherwise they wouldn't be able to see them), same with custom emotions, etc.
The only thing I can think of which would be an invasion of privacy in Messenger itself is the group chat issue were a contact of you can add you to a group chat (without your approval) with other people. And thus those other people would see your Windows Live Id automatically.
Invasion of privacy is like breaking in to someone, or get info from someone which they do not want to share. If info is already automatically shared because that is how things work (eg: the display pictures) then that can't be seen as an invasion of privacy.
RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-14-2008 at 03:08 PM
@DejaVoo
As Cookie has kinda said, you're releasing this information (anything in your name, personal message, display picture) into the public domain - theoretically once it's out there anyone can do any thing with it - by making these things public that's the choice you have made.
I was once (from the site, with her permission) emailed by some girl in my year who had signed up to a social networking site. The email contained all her personal information, as well as a picture of her. The email was sent out to everyone on her contact list. I could be a pedo for all she knew. But it's my information to what I want with now...(if I hadn't deleted the email )
RE: who's apeering offline? by DejaVoo on 05-14-2008 at 03:28 PM
Maybe I worded things wrong as I certainly didn’t mean that Plus invades peoples privacy, I obviously use Plus and love many of it features, I really like the skins and a lot of the scripts also….
I was giving the example of DP stealing as until I became aware of it I really had no clue that by having my picture up, someone would be able to steal it, keep it and use it as their DP which meant that anyone on their contact list could also steal it and so on...
Maybe that’s not an invasion of privacy since I had it up in the first place, maybe I was just naïve and a little uneducated. Now that I know better I simply don’t put up any pictures I don’t want others to have, a choice I can make now since I’m aware that it is possible…
As far as being able to see when “someone is appearing offline” or when “someone has blocked you” or who “opens a conversation window” yesterday I was wondering if all of these things were in actual fact possible and were incorporated into Plus or a script or another program would it still be seen as an invasion of privacy or just another feature. It was just a hypothetical question not an accusation or an assumption that WLM or Plus invades people’s privacy...
Damn, I didn’t mean to offend anyone…
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-14-2008 at 04:34 PM
quote:Well, that isn't entirly true though...
Originally posted by Aardvark
@DejaVoo
As Cookie has kinda said, you're releasing this information (anything in your name, personal message, display picture) into the public domain - theoretically once it's out there anyone can do any thing with it - by making these things public that's the choice you have made.
There is still a big difference.
You're absolutely right that such things are send to your contacts already and thus it isn't an invasion of your privacy (if you feel it is you can disable those things and the contact wouldn't recieve them).
But that does not mean they can do anything they want with it!! It is not put in public domain at all... It is send to your contact only and should stay there unless said otherwise.
For example: when you video-chat to someone, that contact may record the video-chat, even without your approval (this isn't an invasion of privacy) but he may not distribute that video anywhere else without your approval! The same with the text/log of the chat itself, etc...
That difference is extremely important. Unfortunatly many people think that these two things are one and the same, and the one flows automatically out of the other. It is, however, majorly different.
Thus:
quote:Absolutely false!
... But it's my information to what I want with now...(if I hadn't deleted the email
She gave her permission to you (and the others) to know the information. She did not gave her permission to publish it in any way, nor to misuse it...
quote:surely didn't offended me though. In fact, you raise good points and stuff which many people ask themselfs too and/or get wrong...
Originally posted by DejaVoo
Damn, I didn’t mean to offend anyone…
So, as for the DP example, it is the same as with a video-chat. It isn't an invasion of privacy that someone can "steal" it ("copy" it would be better since, as you know, nothing is stolen at all). However, it is not a good sign of trust that the contact will copy and/or redistribute your own made graphic just like that.
But, most of the DPs are graphics which _are_ in the public domain, so there is no real problem with those. Of course, since most of them are in the public domain, or come from the public domain, or many people don't care that others "steal" them, it is very often wrongfully assumed that _all_ DPs are public domain.
But the DP issue, for example, is an issue of copyright, which is different than invasion of privacy....
If you put up a DP which you created and it contained your telephone number: it would be an invasion of your privacy if your contact would publish that phonenumber in public, and it would be a copyright breach if he used that DP as his own.
RE: RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-15-2008 at 05:08 AM
quote:That's what I've been thinking whenever I tell the story of what happened to people, but I look at it like this: it's like giving a present to someone. You're passing it on from you to them, so it's theirs now, and they can do with it as they please. Sure it's probably completely different but looking at it like this somewhat "defuses" the whole unethicalness of altering someones picture, for example.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
She gave her permission to you (and the others) to know the information. She did not gave her permission to publish it in any way, nor to misuse it...
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 09:31 AM
Yes, and you should keep that in mind for your own safety and security if you send something to someone because most people will think like that... But the matter of fact is that looking at it like that is legally very wrong.
It is just the same as with downloading stuff. You may 'feel' like you don't need to pay for a piece of software or music, but it is still stealing.
RE: RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-15-2008 at 09:39 AM
quote:I don't think it's the same as downloading music because the music is released with rules that say "it will cost you this much to purchase a copy of it." The fact I'm going out and seeking the music out I want to download, instead of having, say, the industry that produced the record mass mail a whole bunch of people with a url to a download link for the track on their server, makes it completely different to what I was talking about (I've got a gut feeling though you might've been referring to something else with the downloading of stuff though...)
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It is just the same as with downloading stuff. You may 'feel' like you don't need to pay for a piece of software or music, but it is still stealing.
I would think that "legally" since the picture was sent to me, it's not stealing at all. If that were illegal then if police raided every single person who uses msn's computers and found the messengercache folder, bang they've broken the law.
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 11:25 AM
It is the same as downloading music because when you download music you do something illegal*. When you copy other people's work (DP or a musici track) and redistribute it, it is illegal...
No matter how you feel about it, it is illegal to use other people's work without their approval, even if they send it to you.
Putting a picture on a website for everyone to see does not make that picture public domain!!! That is one of the biggest misconceptions on the net these days...
* of course I'm talking about downloading licensed copyrighted music, before anyone argues it is not...
RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-15-2008 at 11:35 AM
Ahh ok gotcha. Thanks Cookie, fair enough then.
RE: who's apeering offline? by sinancetinkaya on 05-15-2008 at 01:56 PM
you can see "who is online" this style but not enough
use a network sniffer (like smartsniff) and listen msn http:80 connections
when this moment change msn avatar
you can see who is online when anyone look to you
sorry for bad english
RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-15-2008 at 01:58 PM
Unless you actually knew the IP of each of your contacts that would be pretty useless IMO. Unless you wanna play dirty and break into their computer just to find out who it was. 
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 02:01 PM
quote:In case you didn't read this thread, the discussion held here and in other threads like here, are exactly about the fact that this does not work properly and is not accurate at all.
Originally posted by sinancetinkaya
you can see "who is online" this style but not enough
use a network sniffer (like smartsniff) and listen msn http:80 connections
when this moment change msn avatar
you can see who is online when anyone look to you
sorry for bad english
RE: who's apeering offline? by Sam Walsh on 05-15-2008 at 04:56 PM
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=74198&page=1
Another topic from a year ago on this matter. They came up with some half decen ideas.
It isn't impossible. 
Doubt there will be a script made though.
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 05:40 PM
quote:Read the thread completely?
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=74198&page=1
Another topic from a year ago on this matter. They came up with some half decen ideas.
It isn't impossible.
It is impossible to make something accurate....
(for the 87659th time in the 65434th thread about this
)accept it
RE: RE: who's apeering offline? by Sam Walsh on 05-15-2008 at 05:45 PM
quote:I bet there is a way
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:Read the thread completely? It is impossible to make something accurate (for the Xth time
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=74198&page=1
Another topic from a year ago on this matter. They came up with some half decen ideas.
It isn't impossible.
People said the same about not being able to know if someone has you blocked, but you can find that out in seconds without the need of websites or downloads.
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 05:47 PM
quote:I'm sorry but I think you really should start to read threads in that case.
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
quote:I bet there is a way
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:Read the thread completely? It is impossible to make something accurate (for the Xth time
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=74198&page=1
Another topic from a year ago on this matter. They came up with some half decen ideas.
It isn't impossible.
People said the same about not being able to know if someone has you blocked, but you can find that out in seconds without the need of websites or downloads.
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE
(and block checking is also NOT POSSIBLE)
RE: RE: who's apeering offline? by Sam Walsh on 05-15-2008 at 05:53 PM
quote:I'm not talking about scripting. I believe you that it's not possible to do using a script. I'm more or less saying there will be a way somehow using a piece of software or such and such.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:I'm sorry but I think you really should start to read threads in that case.
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
quote:I bet there is a way
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:Read the thread completely? It is impossible to make something accurate (for the Xth time
Originally posted by Sam Walsh
http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=74198&page=1
Another topic from a year ago on this matter. They came up with some half decen ideas.
It isn't impossible.
People said the same about not being able to know if someone has you blocked, but you can find that out in seconds without the need of websites or downloads.
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE
(and block checking is also NOT POSSIBLE)
And you're wrong. I've discovered my own little way of knowing if someone has you blocked.
RE: who's apeering offline? by CookieRevised on 05-15-2008 at 06:10 PM
lol, for the last time: it will NOT work accurately.... This doesn't have anything to do with scripting or not; it is simply not possible because the protocol does not allow it...
Please read some threads...
RE: who's apeering offline? by Sam Walsh on 05-15-2008 at 06:14 PM
Hmm sorry then. I know next to nothing of programming, scripting etc.
Want me to show you this Blocking method on Messenger? Add me. I'll send you my email through PM now.
RE: who's apeering offline? by Aardvark on 05-16-2008 at 03:54 AM
WRONG! I have come up with a solution. It can be even done with a plus script. When you open a conversation with someone, the script automatically sends a message "hey is <email> online?" Ingenious! The beauty of social networking. Sure this will lead to spam and asking the question to contacts who may not even HAVE that email added, but it would work none the less!
Ironically it also has the same flaws as every other method - your contact could lie to you about the persons true online/offline status