Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website - Printable Version
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Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 10:51 AM
Messenger Plus! has always been at the forefront of Windows Live Messenger extension development but this hasn't just been alone with the application itself... This has pushed as far as this forum and also the website...
Everybody knows my thoughts about the design of the, unfortunately awful, website... Just realised that the site has been released so I thought I'd have a peep at the code.
Oh my God.
It's using a table layout, useless javascript, useless meta information and really poor CSS.
Yuna, you should have a quiet word with your front-end developers. The work they're doing is substandard and you could save bandwidth, have a faster website and something which could potentially perform better in the SERPs by reading a few blog posts here and there. A re-code of the entire site (as a CMS) should take a good front-end developer no longer than 3 - 5 days.
It's starting to make Messenger Plus! look very very bad.
Edit: I've modified the subject of this thread to (hopefully) alert the guys over at Yuna so they can do something about what's a bit of a problem.
Edit: Modified the title so it was less misleading.
RE: Poor HTML on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Spunky on 02-08-2011 at 10:57 AM
I'd already noticed the table layout...
Just noticed duplicate META tags and what seems to be a bit of a weird layout on the TITLE tag.
Definitely things to be improved. The more worrying part is the styling of the site in and of it's self though.
RE: Poor HTML on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 10:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Spunky
I'd already noticed the table layout...
Just noticed duplicate META tags and what seems to be a bit of a weird layout on the TITLE tag.
Definitely things to be improved. The more worrying part is the styling of the site in and of it's self though.
Exactly, it's very poor. It's like being back in the early '00s. I've never ever coded like that.
Edit: Removed a forward-slash.
RE: Yuna: Poor HTML on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-08-2011 at 04:29 PM
quote:The site has no been released yet. What you see is a test version.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
Just realised that the site has been released so I thought I'd have a peep at the code.
This said, the final release wont be that much different I think, it hopefully has a few fixes for certain stuff though, but mostly the code behind it would stay approximate the same.
quote:It is a CMS (albight not the best one I've seen).
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
A re-code of the entire site (as a CMS) ...
RE: Yuna: Poor HTML on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Felu on 02-08-2011 at 04:42 PM
Also, what's with the rather redundant CSS properties? Why in God's name is the file 6552 lines? 
e.g. border definitions for almost every element
code:
border-bottom: 0px solid;
border-left: 0px solid;
border-top: 0px solid;
border-right: 0px solid
RE: Yuna: Poor HTML on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 06:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
The site has no been released yet. What you see is a test version.
This said, the final release wont be that much different I think, it hopefully has a few fixes for certain stuff though, but mostly the code behind it would stay approximate the same.
A test version of a website should be as near to the final code (front-end) as possible otherwise it makes the entire testing process pointless. Honestly, the entire thing could be re-coded in the matter of hours/days.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It is a CMS (albight not the best one I've seen).
I was emphasising the fact that even as a CMS the site would be very easy to re-code and to a higher standard. Really surprised it's not using a good CMS, considering the number of open source options available. WordPress would be my first port of call.
quote:
Originally posted by Felu
Also, what's with the rather redundant CSS properties? Why in God's name is the file 6552 lines?
I've revised the title of the topic as it was rather misleading. The entire site is a complete mess.
Edit: Fixed spelling mistake. Had written "completely" rather than "complete".
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 06:33 PM
I've thrown together two examples of how it should be indented and commented:
CSS Documents
HTML Documents
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Thor on 02-08-2011 at 06:34 PM
quote:I agree with you on most points, but WordPress is -- and remains -- a security trap. I'd rather go with something less.. exploitable in many cases, such as Drupal or even try TYPO3, but that's a whole different story. Just saying; WordPress isn't the most ideal CMS for a site like Messenger Plus! Live.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I was emphasising the fact that even as a CMS the site would be very easy to re-code and to a higher standard. Really surprised it's not using a good CMS, considering the number of open source options available. WordPress would be my first port of call.
Except for that, I agree.
RE: RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by segosa on 02-08-2011 at 07:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I've thrown together two examples of how it should be indented and commented:
CSS Documents
HTML Documents
Yeah... no. I've agreed with you about everything until now. That's just *your* way of doing it. That's by no means the only way of doing it, nor the "right" one. There is no one right way.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 07:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
quote:
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I've thrown together two examples of how it should be indented and commented:
CSS Documents
HTML Documents
Yeah... no. I've agreed with you about everything until now. That's just *your* way of doing it. That's by no means the only way of doing it, nor the "right" one. There is no one right way.
Show me a better way of commenting, indenting, naming and ordering HTML & CSS. From experience both commercial and non-commercial that's (by far) the cleanest and quickest way to code. Ignoring frameworks, obviously.
Though I agree with you... Yes, it is my way of doing things but it is something that works in a commercial environment with a team of developers. It's made us quicker and more effective at what we do and over the past 6 months the cleaner code has reduced the number of IE hacks we're having to use.
Paired with a 960 grid system, it's heaven.
Edit: Added last 2 paragraphs — what I said was a bit vague!!
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
I agree with you on most points, but WordPress is -- and remains -- a security trap. I'd rather go with something less.. exploitable in many cases, such as Drupal or even try TYPO3, but that's a whole different story. Just saying; WordPress isn't the most ideal CMS for a site like Messenger Plus! Live.
Except for that, I agree.
What security exploits are there? If I was worried that my developers couldn't handle a security fix, I'd opt for a license CMS such as ExpressionEngine. That thing is tight.
Edit: Added response to Thor!!
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by segosa on 02-08-2011 at 07:58 PM
Your "edit descriptions" are needlessly detailed. Nobody actually cares why you made an edit. Even the fact that it occurred is borderline superfluous.
Anyway, if you lead a team of developers I can only thank a non-existent god that I don't work for you. If you force everyone to do something *one* way and one way only, I imagine working under you is hell.
Your attitude about this whole thing just comes across as arrogant.
Furthermore, I think the "useless" javascript you're referring to, is simply ASP.NET. Note that I haven't taken a close look at the website, as whether it's bad or not is not really the point here.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Thor on 02-08-2011 at 08:05 PM
quote:WordPress has a horrible security track record when it comes to security exploits. The problem isn't the open security exploits screaming in your face, but rather how often a security exploit is discovered here and there.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
I agree with you on most points, but WordPress is -- and remains -- a security trap. I'd rather go with something less.. exploitable in many cases, such as Drupal or even try TYPO3, but that's a whole different story. Just saying; WordPress isn't the most ideal CMS for a site like Messenger Plus! Live.
Except for that, I agree.
What security exploits are there? If I was worried that my developers couldn't handle a security fix, I'd opt for a license CMS such as ExpressionEngine. That thing is tight.
Edit: Added response to Thor!!
Not to mention that it's horrible performance wise right out of the box.
In the end, that's not what this topic is about, but my personal opinion is that WordPress is for blogging. If you're not going to be blogging and/or that's not what your site's focus is on: don't use WordPress. You can, but I wouldn't. There are more suitable and flexible alternatives with a better foundation.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 08:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
Your "edit descriptions" are needlessly detailed. Nobody actually cares why you made an edit. Even the fact that it occurred is borderline superfluous.
It's a habit after using forums which require a description. I add them so people know the reason for the edit, I admit a lot of them are a bit pointless but I don't want people to think I'm editing important information from them. I'll stop doing that.
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
Anyway, if you lead a team of developers I can only thank a non-existent god that I don't work for you. If you force everyone to do something *one* way and one way only, I imagine working under you is hell.
I don't lead developers, but I've the most experience in front-end development and do something which works. It's something we've discussed and I've spent time developing. I haven't forced them to do anything and I never will force them to do it. There are, however, right ways of doing things and I make sure I do all of those. That includes commenting and semantic, re-usable naming of elements. So it's something we spend time really thinking about, rather than making decisions spur of the moment which are detrimental to the rest of the site.
Everyone I work with appreciates that there's a reason to be semantic and that there's a reason we should all be on the same level for HTML/CSS. If we weren't, it'd be an absolute nightmare. I don't think anybody can tell me I'm incorrect for having a set way of doing things... Obviously you can be as lenient as possible, but what's the point of that?
Fortunately, the guys I work with also really care about the same stuff in their code. For example, the lead developer abhors spaces instead of tabs, so we all switched to tabs... A slight change that took us 5 minutes each, but now we're on the same level. The suggestions I have only take people an extra few moments and they make a lot of sense if you think about it.
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
Your attitude about this whole thing just comes across as arrogant.
Crap, I seriously didn't mean to come across that way... I just really care about things like this, so end up getting on my high horse. Probably unnecessarily. Sorry about that.
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
Furthermore, I think the "useless" javascript you're referring to, is simply ASP.NET. Note that I haven't taken a close look at the website, as whether it's bad or not is not really the point here.
I'm referring to the dropdown navigation, everything there could be done using CSS.
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
In the end, that's not what this topic is about, but my personal opinion is that WordPress is for blogging. If you're not going to be blogging and/or that's not what your site's focus is on: don't use WordPress. You can, but I wouldn't. There are more suitable and flexible alternatives with a better foundation.
WordPress used to be a blogging platform but it isn't anymore, there's no reason why people can't use it to power their website. Most of the people I know are either using WordPress or ExpressionEngine to power their website. Plus the odd one or two using PerchCMS (which I haven't tried out).
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Arcticwolfx on 02-08-2011 at 08:45 PM
Lets not be unnecessarily discarding about Talk2Luke's suggestions. He obviously has some good idea's. The fact that he chooses to detail his edits shouldn't be a problem to anyone. We are all adults here, so I would suggest we act that way.
This community is for a large part relatively old and accepting new members seems troublesome for a few veteran members, as I'm facing myself.
I suggest keeping your content on topic and for anyone who is involved with the frontpage or has experience to contribute the topic, please do so with an open mind..
Edit
I'm lacking background information apparently, I just thought the responses seemed harsh.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by matty on 02-08-2011 at 08:48 PM
quote:He has been around for years...
Originally posted by Arcticwolfx
Talk2Luke, his community is for a large part relatively old and accepting new members seems troublesome for a few veteran members, as I'm facing myself.
This was his old profile: http://shoutbox.menthix.net/member.php?action=profile&uid=27089
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Arcticwolfx on 02-08-2011 at 09:12 PM
Well if that is really his old profile.. I'm not able to see that.
Clearly I don't know enough then about this particular case, it just seemed an extra-ordinary unkind response to his ideas.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by segosa on 02-08-2011 at 09:14 PM
oh great, traxor.
wow, you've changed.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-08-2011 at 09:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arcticwolfx
Well if that is really his old profile.. I'm not able to see that.
Clearly I don't know enough then about this particular case, it just seemed an extra-ordinary unkind response to his ideas.
That was my old profile, I joined in November 2003 and, due to persona reasons, decided it was best to no longer associate myself with that particular account/name anymore. Slowly moving away from it altogether.
Figured I'd pop my foot in the door and have a moan here every now and then. This being one of those moments.
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
oh great, traxor.
wow, you've changed.
Yep
.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by matty on 02-08-2011 at 09:21 PM
quote:His posts are starting to resemble that of CR...
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
quote:
Originally posted by segosa
oh great, traxor.
wow, you've changed.
Yep
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Thor on 02-08-2011 at 09:38 PM
quote:As I have expressed to you, I agree that there's no reason people can't use it to power their website. However, I'll stick with people as in individuals or smaller groups, and not corporations and/or bigger teams of software developers with a project. It's cool for a lot of things, but resting the point that WordPress wouldn't fit much into the world of MP! website wise.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
WordPress used to be a blogging platform but it isn't anymore, there's no reason why people can't use it to power their website. Most of the people I know are either using WordPress or ExpressionEngine to power their website. Plus the odd one or two using PerchCMS (which I haven't tried out).
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Hank on 02-08-2011 at 09:48 PM
lets hope the end result of plus5 is much better than there website or a lack there of one
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-09-2011 at 09:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
quote:As I have expressed to you, I agree that there's no reason people can't use it to power their website. However, I'll stick with people as in individuals or smaller groups, and not corporations and/or bigger teams of software developers with a project. It's cool for a lot of things, but resting the point that WordPress wouldn't fit much into the world of MP! website wise.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
WordPress used to be a blogging platform but it isn't anymore, there's no reason why people can't use it to power their website. Most of the people I know are either using WordPress or ExpressionEngine to power their website. Plus the odd one or two using PerchCMS (which I haven't tried out).
Yep, and I completely agree with you. Like I said in the PM, I was a little blase in mentioning WordPress. I think ExpressionEngine would be a bit more suitable.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by aNILEator on 02-09-2011 at 09:56 AM
I think it looks like an OLD msgshit or msgstuff design or a bit like mess.be which has died such a horrid death with an unfinished website and just eww. He does a Facebook tips and profile name/image generator now I think.
I'd prefer a massive 1/2 plus logo (oh wait we ditched the butterfly 
) coming in on the right download link front of stage, and links top left, on a simple background.
Meh plus is going through a 'phase' mid-life crisis maybe 
put it's slippers on instead of work shoes
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Discrate on 02-09-2011 at 10:58 AM
I have done enough of critisizing YUNA.
But i will say that all this stuff that is happening is exactly what i thought would happen. It was expected. It's what happens when a company takes over an indie project that is community driven. All they care about is money and profit (so they should considering they are a company) this leads to mistakes being made and things being done that the community does not like.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-09-2011 at 12:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Discrate
But i will say that all this stuff that is happening is exactly what i thought would happen. It was expected. It's what happens when a company takes over an indie project that is community driven. All they care about is money and profit (so they should considering they are a company) this leads to mistakes being made and things being done that the community does not like.
You're right there. I was hoping that the company buying Messenger Plus! were a small, bunch of enthusiastic guys, but it's become clear that they're like every other organisation. Caring about profit, not polish. It's what sets aside companies like Yuna from companies like Panic, Inc.
quote:
Originally posted by aNILEator
I think it looks like an OLD msgshit or msgstuff design or a bit like mess.be which has died such a horrid death with an unfinished website and just eww. He does a Facebook tips and profile name/image generator now I think.
I'd prefer a massive 1/2 plus logo (oh wait we ditched the butterfly
Meh plus is going through a 'phase' mid-life crisis maybe
Yep, it looks like a very old website. No offence intended to the creative director or the person who designed it, but it looks very similar to the sorts of designs I was producing when I had very little experience and just didn't care about the small details. I wasn't designing for the user, I was just designing for the sake of designing. No sketches. No thoughts. No IA. Nothing.
Essentially what they've done is created a "Web 2.0" website using outdated techniques. Not utilising new and amazing technologies which would enhance the design ten-fold. It's all very old school.
For me, this marks the end of Messenger Plus!.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Chrissy on 02-09-2011 at 04:13 PM
Moan too, Adrien, Alexandre, Hanan, Rabih, Sabri, Sophie, Thomas and Virgil.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-09-2011 at 06:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chrissy
Moan too, Adrien, Alexandre, Hanan, Rabih, Sabri, Sophie, Thomas and Virgil.
Honestly, I was hoping for a public response. We haven't had any confirmation that Yuna won't continue the public discussions about what they're doing to fix things etc, so I'd either like them to tell us that this is no longer about the community anymore or that they're going to do something about it.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by x2zen on 02-09-2011 at 07:07 PM
quote:AFAIK, Yuna didn't buy Plus!. Yuna was created by Patchou.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I was hoping that the company buying Messenger Plus! were a small, bunch of enthusiastic guys, but it's become clear that they're like every other organisation.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Menthix on 02-09-2011 at 07:25 PM
Yuna did change owners. But the name Yuna is obviously a company name only a Final Fantasy obsessed person as Patchou could come up with . Same for Kimahri Software btw, which is officially the name of the office in Montreal.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-09-2011 at 07:32 PM
quote:It is not no longer about the community, on the contrary. But what has that todo with all of this anyways?
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
quote:
Originally posted by Chrissy
Moan too, Adrien, Alexandre, Hanan, Rabih, Sabri, Sophie, Thomas and Virgil.
Honestly, I was hoping for a public response. We haven't had any confirmation that Yuna won't continue the public discussions about what they're doing to fix things etc, so I'd either like them to tell us that this is no longer about the community anymore or that they're going to do something about it.
Also, you can't expect them to drop everything they're working on and completely start changing the website according to your own personal whishes.
Yes, they could tell us if they are going to do something about it or not. But as Jieff has already said in public: "it is a work in progress" and "some things need to change and we will see what we can do about it".
I like to see some changes too, but quite frankly the site works (except for the menu issue which a very very minor set of people suffer from). Changing some graphics or what not is, very understandable, not high on their priority list. And despite what you might believe, people are not going to stop using Plus! because the site may look a bit less appealing than it used to be.
Quite frankly, I can perfectly imagine they have quite a lot of better things to do, at this moment at least, than fixing some coding style which nobody would notice anyways (except for those who look at the website source).
Another thing: they do listen to our arguments, eventhough they might not always respond immediatly (neither did Patchou in the past btw!). Compare the fist version of the website (that screenshot which was posted in public) and how it is now; It clearly is a big improvement I think. But such stuff takes time. Imho, it's ridiculous to expect a complete change overnight (and no, it is not a matter of a few hours work to fix everything).
------------
EDIT: PS: you have posted this in the completely wrong subforum.... it should be in "Forum & Website".
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by Spunky on 02-09-2011 at 07:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
people are not going to stop using Plus! because the site may look a bit less appealing than it used to be
I have to slightly disagree. Casual users of Plus! may see it and think "wow, that took a nose dive" putting them off using it again. Not very likely, but possible. Then you also have new users that will be put off by it (how many dodgy websites have we seen that looked similar in style/layout.
To be honest, the whole myPlus! thing sounds a bit fishy too. If I found that on any other WLM add-on related site, I'd steer clear of it.
"Just give us your e-mail and a password (most likely the same as you use for your e-mail) so we can keep a copy of your chat logs on our server"
We all know it's not the case, but we are all well experienced with plus and new/casual users will be put off
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-09-2011 at 09:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Compare the fist version of the website (that screenshot which was posted in public) and how it is now; It clearly is a big improvement I think. But such stuff takes time. Imho, it's ridiculous to expect a complete change overnight (and no, it is not a matter of a few hours work to fix everything).
I'm having my final say in design here. This topic is about the build of the site and not the design. If their main area of focus is on building an application, then they should focus on that. If they do not have the time necessary to design and build a user-friendly, good website, then they should concentrate on the application and hire a company who know what they're doing. If the company was half decent, they would've read the brief, figured out what the user needs, looked at the existing site and figured out how they could build and improve on that experience. I'm one hundred percent certain that that didn't happen. That's why I'm being stubborn and sticking to my guns. If they did hire a company, I would not pay for that. I'd downright refuse.
I'm fighting a losing battle with you Cookie. You're clearly very biased towards Yuna has a company. Yes, the site works. Of course it works, but an electric scooter has wheels and can go down a road, but I'll stick with my VW.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Also, you can't expect them to drop everything they're working on and completely start changing the website according to your own personal whishes.
I don't expect them to drop everything. I want them to be aware that the job done on the site wasn't very good.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
It is not no longer about the community, on the contrary. But what has that todo with all of this anyways?
People agree with me, nobody from Yuna has said anything about it. Messenger Plus! has always been a group effort. Not just the application, but the website, forum, plugins, skins etc. That's disappearing.
It's getting worse. This has gone from a thriving community to a few straggling members, a poor website and (from what I've heard) an application with very few improvements. It's really unfortunate. I'm glad Patchou sold when he did. Really glad for him.
Edit: If you report the thread it may be moved to the correct forum. Sorry about that.
Wow, I didn't see the additional page. Too much caffeine today. I also cannot believe I ignored the comment from Cookie essentially saying "design doesn't matter". To you it may not matter but it does to other people. People like me who remember the old site, type in msgplus.com to download an update and think... Woooooow, this is awful!
That will happen. I guarantee you. Design matters. Design is the difference between a 1% conversion rate and a 20% conversion rate.
Choices in design need to be strategic and planned. It's clear from a mile off that the site hasn't been strategised OR planned properly. It's been an afterthought.
Let's hope they learn from their mistakes.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-09-2011 at 10:03 PM
quote:Then you clearly don't know me, nor have any idea what I think about Yuna. Also see the comment marked with * below.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
You're clearly very biased towards Yuna has a company.
quote:_some_ people agree with you. The thing is that for average Joe it doesn't realy matter how the code looks like, it works now (well, it should be after the DNS changes) and that is the most important thing. And although you might have good points (I never said I disagree with them*) you seem to act as if the world will end tomorrow if nothing in the code is fixed instantly, which by your own words is just a matter of a few hours work or what not. Well, it does not work that way and it does take a lot of time to get where it needs to be.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
People agree with me, nobody from Yuna has said anything about it.
Also, yes, they do listen to good arguments, and yes they have said something about it, maybe not to you personally, but they (read: Jieff) have.
quote:No it is not disappearing, that's just your 'doomsday' thinking and negative attitude towards Yuna** speaking and/or the fact that you yourself don't use Plus! as much anymore (and listening to hear-say from other people who don't use Plus! anymore as frequently as they use to). Scripts and skins are also still developped, people can still report issues and suggestions for the website and forum, etc...
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
Messenger Plus! has always been a group effort. Not just the application, but the website, forum, plugins, skins etc. That's disappearing.
And if there is a general downfall it probably is because IM in general is getting less popular, compared to social networking... not because of Yuna (they are not that important to the IM world
).quote:What's that suppose to mean? I mean, by stating that you seem to blame it on Plus!, the software itself, for the downfall of this forum, etc..., even before it became the property of Yuna? If so, then you whole argument that Yuna is going in the wrong direction doesn't make much sense (since they didn't even existing back then) if I may say so.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I'm glad Patchou sold when he did. Really glad for him.
Either way, if Patchou hadn't "sold", there wouldn't have been anything at all at this moment! In fact, it is exactly _because_ he "sold" that everything here still exists (in one way or the other), that skins and scripts are still being made, that we are still talking on this forum, etc... etc...
-
**and to strengthen my point on that:
quote:I suggest you read up on some things before judging and applying that (maybe unconscience) 'doomsday' thinking to everything then.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
....and (from what I've heard) an application with very few improvements.
Or maybe you shouldn't have left as you clearly are not as much in the loop anymore. I can't and don't blame you for that of course, but so shouldn't you judge stuff based upon hear-say or an already negative feelings from a few people who are infected with that 'doomsday' virus themselfs...
I have said it before, if nothing has been changed in like a few months and/or the userbase has indeed significantly dropped, then by all means shout all you want. I will even join you! But as for now, it simply sounds like pulling things seriously out of context.
As for those improvements:
), but it was/is very obvious that big improvements were not to be expected in the first release of Plus!5. So you can't use that as your argument to proof that everything is going downhill. In fact, When other major versions were released they also contained only one or two big new things. Again an example of how people use such current events as an example of how bad Yuna is doing, while in fact nothing has changed compared to similar previous events when Patchou was still in charge.quote:yup, no worries, will do, but after this side-discussion has been split out so that your thread can be kept on topic about the faults in the code/design of the site.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
Edit: If you report the thread it may be moved to the correct forum. Sorry about that.
-------
EDIT:
quote:hehehe, I know the feeling
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
Wow, I didn't see the additional page. Too much caffeine today.
quote:I didn't essentially say "it doesn't matter", on the contrary though! If you think that, then I'm afraid you completely misunderstood me and/or pulled it seriously out of context. Sorry for not making myself clear then, but I said I think it doesn't matter to the average user _at this point_. And together with that I also clearly stated (I think) that it does indeed need big changes! But not right now. Because there are far more important things to do first. So, what I said can't be reduced to a one-liner and isn't as black and white as "design doesn't matter", it is way more nuanced than that.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I also cannot believe I ignored the comment from Cookie essentially saying "design doesn't matter". To you it may not matter but it does to other people. People like me who remember the old site, type in msgplus.com to download an update and think... Woooooow, this is awful!
May I remind you of my first and second post in this thread, where I stated that I too hope things will change?
(and with that I also corrected a few things like "nothing has been done or said so far" quote not to be taken literally, but is is essentially what has been said by you, no? if not, I misunderstood you.)
If you do want to reduce everything I've said to a one-liner I suppose I essentially said that I think you blow stuff a bit way out of proportion, without disagreeing with your code/design points.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by traxor on 02-10-2011 at 12:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Then you clearly don't know me, nor have any idea what I think about Yuna. Also see the comment marked with * below.
Even you have to admit that your posts have been leaning towards Yuna quite a bit. However, that could be because you know more than we do about the whole ordeal. In which case, please spill the beans
.quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
_some_ people agree with you. The thing is that for average Joe it doesn't realy matter how the code looks like, it works now (well, it should be after the DNS changes) and that is the most important thing. And although you might have good points (I never said I disagree with them*) you seem to act as if the world will end tomorrow if nothing in the code is fixed instantly, which by your own words is just a matter of a few hours work or what not. Well, it does not work that way and it does take a lot of time to get where it needs to be.
Also, yes, they do listen to good arguments, and yes they have said something about it, maybe not to you personally, but they (read: Jieff) have.
People agreed with me about the design and people agree with me about the front-end development. It may not be flocks of people but the thing is that good front-end development will improve the look of a website anyway. I regularly re-code poorly-coded websites and it improves things like alignment, spacing etc and makes the design look better overall. I really think they should keep this in mind.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
No it is not disappearing, that's just your 'doomsday' thinking and negative attitude towards Yuna** speaking and/or the fact that you yourself don't use Plus! as much anymore (and listening to hear-say from other people who don't use Plus! anymore as frequently as they use to). Scripts and skins are also still developped, people can still report issues and suggestions for the website and forum, etc...
I may be being pessimistic, but it's not doomsday... It's what I can see. You must agree that this place is no longer the thriving community that it was. It's become a place with the odd genuine post and a hell of a lot of trolls. I really want to see the analytics comparisons showing the forum and website two years ago, along with the number of downloads.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
What's that suppose to mean? I mean, by stating that you seem to blame it on Plus!, the software itself, for the downfall of this forum, etc..., even before it became the property of Yuna? If so, then you whole argument that Yuna is going in the wrong direction doesn't make much sense (since they didn't even existing back then) if I may say so.
Either way, if Patchou hadn't "sold", there wouldn't have been anything at all at this moment! In fact, it is exactly _because_ he "sold" that everything here still exists (in one way or the other), that skins and scripts are still being made, that we are still talking on this forum, etc... etc...
As I said in my private message, he sold it at it's peak. Good on him. I hope his basking in cash.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I suggest you read up on some things before judging and applying that (maybe unconscience) 'doomsday' thinking to everything then.
I have to base everything on here-say, the only way I can use Windows is through VMWare fusion, and that's a waste of time for me.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
hehehe, I know the feeling
Glad it's not just me then
.quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I didn't essentially say "it doesn't matter", on the contrary though! If you think that, then I'm afraid you completely misunderstood me and/or pulled it seriously out of context. Sorry for not making myself clear then, but I said I think it doesn't matter to the average user _at this point_. And together with that I also clearly stated (I think) that it does indeed need big changes! But not right now. Because there are far more important things to do first. So, what I said can't be reduced to a one-liner and isn't as black and white as "design doesn't matter", it is way more nuanced than that.
That was a definite misunderstanding on my behalf then. For me, the average user is always the person I research and target through design. I obviously don't know enough about the average user. Glad you agree that they need changes. But as I said, if they're worried about other things, they should get a proper design company to create the site for them.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
May I remind you of my first and second post in this thread, where I stated that I too hope things will change?
(and with that I also corrected a few things like "nothing has been done or said so far" quote not to be taken literally, but is is essentially what has been said by you, no? if not, I misunderstood you.)
I'm glad you hope things will change. I hope they do to.
I guess my general gist wasn't "nothing has been done"... It was more along the lines of "very little has been done", which I don't think is a false statement. I'd expect a certain amount of polish for a site before it's even made live. That's the difference between a novice company and an experienced company.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you do want to reduce everything I've said to a one-liner I suppose I essentially said that I think you blow stuff a bit way out of proportion, without disagreeing with your code/design points.
I suppose my passion can sometimes be misinterpreted as arrogance and things being blown out of proportion.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-10-2011 at 09:48 PM
quote:As a beta tester I (we) indeed do know more than others. Not everything though, but sometimes just enough to see and know the what the real deal behind certain things is. Plus, having some connections might help too. And with that I mean just being friendly towards certain people and showing that they can trust you and you'll be surprised what they want to share with you (in good trust). But yeah, that's indeed stuff I (we) can't share with others for obvious reaons, other than trying to explain things without revealing stuff.
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
Even you have to admit that your posts have been leaning towards Yuna quite a bit. However, that could be because you know more than we do about the whole ordeal. In which case, please spill the beans .
And here lies already a difference in perception. It is not because something is explained, that the person explaining the things (dis)agrees with it!!
Also trying to use a lot of common sense and trying to see things in perspective, instead of basing things on hear-say (for the lack of a better word), will influence how I think or what I post. (and note I said "trying", I don't always succeed in that either). I try to be objective or at least first trying to look at things from the other pov.
Unfortunatly, and I already hinted at that, it seems that these days people all too often confuse such explainations (which are mostly based upon facts and common sense) or attempts to be objective, with my own personal opinions about stuff. Also, some people (conveniently or not) seem to quickly forget how things were and happened in the past when it comes down to stuff Yuna does now.
As soon as you explain something which the OP might got wrong or try to explain how it in reality is, it is immediatly seen as disagreeing with everything and being pro-Yuna (for this matter, but that goes for many other subjects too).
This said, you can ask any beta tester for example what kind of a post I've made when I discovered a severe bug. Which wasn't even a real bug bug, but something "they" (quotes as I do not know who made that decision) explicitly designed it to work like that, but the result of that, for me, was catastrophic. And believe me, I'm still not completely over it.
So, am I pro-Yuna? I like to believe I'm not. But I'm also not contra-Yuna!
The thing is that, with a few exceptions, they have not done anything so severely wrong that I have a personal reason to bad-mouth them or to completely turn my back to them.
Some stuff they did wrong can be explained in a logical way with some common sense; they need to learn too. Granted, you sometimes need to see the whole picture for that, but even without that one could give them the benefit of doubt instead of just quickly dismissing it as them being 'idiots', putting some more fuel on the we-all-hate-yuna vibe and what not. But like I said before, doing that is unfortunatly way too often seen as kissing Yuna's ass in this community (or at least by some people) imho.
-----
As for the subject about the future of this forum: the word 'doomsday' may not have been the correct word, 'being (imho, a bit too) pessimistic' might indeed have been better. But other than that, see our conversation we had in private... (I'm not going to repeat it since this post is again already too long, lol. But you know from those PMs that I partially agree with you.
)quote:Well it is a novice company which doesn't exist yet for so long. Everything is new for them too, and the developpers had to learn everything from scratch too (that is: how Plus! works, and even what Plus! stands for and the importance of this community etc... heck, they are still learning (I hope
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I guess my general gist wasn't "nothing has been done"... It was more along the lines of "very little has been done", which I don't think is a false statement. I'd expect a certain amount of polish for a site before it's even made live. That's the difference between a novice company and an experienced company.
)).(^^ again a small correction without agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of what you've said here - but if you must know: yes I agree with expecting a certain amount of polish for something like a Plus!-website. But I guess the difference is that the amount of polish, for me personally, is just enough (but also not an inch too much) if I compare it to how it was initially, what has been done, what can be done, and what is planned to be done and also taking in account the steep learning curve they go thru).^
quote:something else we have in common...
Originally posted by Talk2Luke
I suppose my passion can sometimes be misinterpreted as arrogance and things being blown out of proportion.
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by prashker on 02-10-2011 at 10:43 PM
I would like to think that concerns about the actual website died with the acquisition of Messenger Plus by the new Yuna people.
It went from something that was almost a one man operation (hyperbole).
Of course a lot of us that are having issues with certain things are partially because we have a certain idea of what it should be looking like and what it shouldn't be like, most of us being part of the community for as long as we have, think we'd have tenure or at least some more experience in the 
's and 
's of the MP!L world.
The problem is Yuna is giving the impression (or lack there of) that we don't. Some people here have been here for 10 years (get a life, 
, joking), and have disagreements with what is being done.
However the workers at Yuna, I doubt they are doing anything on purpose. They're thinking like a big company, little transparency and lack of communication where communication is needed.
We have Liasons and big fancy words for "connections to the big dog".
My only issue would be with Patchou and the terms of his agreement. Now I want to be clear that I know nothing about the business aspect of transferal of ownership or a company, but I'd like to think Patchou had some conditions of his own for the offer such as:
- Patchou himself have some control over the designing process (I'd like to think he didn't
, in the odd chance he did).
- Beta Testers regarded as people who do have tenure (as Patchou has stated in the past, he did mention to Yuna in the beginning that we did know what we were talking about and would respond in the best interests of the product).
- Consulting the current design and building a new design consulting either Patchou, the forum community, or even beta testers. By the time the design was presented to the testers, we had our own issues with the initial design, which in turn gave us this "v2" which we're all still having some issues (big or small) with.
Along with probably some other things, not to mention the extra 5% for his best friend Sam
.The days where you could just Message Patchou directly with issues is gone, where you can consult the designers directly, gone, where you can communicate directly with the people who matter (I mean no disrespect at ALL to Sunshine, without you I'd be even more aggravated
).It's going to take some time for the guys at Yuna to understand how things work, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll eventually realize what's going on.
I have no doubts the design will eventually change, some internal issues will be addressed and Yuna will give us some more lovin'
.Design aside, for those concerning themselves with the crappy code of the site itself, I agree completely, however beyond voicing our opinion, I really don't think any of us should care anymore, especially since we're even less important than we were pre-Yuna.
It's a hassle making a design everyone likes, but even if it's a crappy design I'd like to think the code that makes it all is atleast nicely done (keeping in mind there is a difference between preference and actual nice code).
I think we're at a point where Yuna will either realize what's going on, or go full big-corporation, embrace the Microsoft, Apple, or any other big boy support system, with a near-complete barrier between consumer and meaningful support.
I for one, welcome our Yuna overlords. Having said that I personally feel like another ant in the world of magnifying-glass-holding Yuna giants, just waiting to be exterminated from the loop
.edit:
[17:49] <SonicSam> fuck my forum post I just made makes no sense
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-10-2011 at 10:56 PM
A quick question (asked in general, but in response to Sam's post):
quote:But shouldn't we also take some time to understand how things work?
Originally posted by SonicSam
tl;dr: It's going to take some time for the guys at Yuna to understand how things work, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll eventually realize what's going on.
I mean, it _is_ a company now, and stuff has changed because of that, there is nothing you or anyone else can do about that, it is how things and companies in the real world work.
We need to get used to that too I think, after all those years living in _our_ ideal bubble where you could directly contact the people and knew everybody in person (so to speak).
Idealy (for the both of us) meeting somewhere in the middle I'd hope...
--
quote:Makes quite a lot of sense to me though
Originally posted by SonicSam
[17:49] <SonicSam> fuck my forum post I just made makes no sense
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by prashker on 02-10-2011 at 11:14 PM
quote:Website aside, the product itself hasn't changed much, a little MyPlus! over here, a little design tinker over there, and didn't really need to change.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
But shouldn't we also take some time to understand how things work?
). MyPlus for example, while I personally won't be using it, I can see how it may be useful for the average Messenger Plus user.I think for us to take time to understand how things work with them is fine, as long as there's a centralized place to vent (in this case, this thread). I obviously don't believe my opinion or ideas should be the only ideas, but I'd like to think that I could at least be considered influential to possible crucial changes (such as design).
I just don't want the Yuna release to _begin_ with complete block from the community. Get our inputs on designs, etc, and maybe then they can retract their heads back into the big-corp mindset, occasionally peeping out for bug reports.
I don't think we're all worried about Yuna in the long run, just that they start with a pretty nice bang
, we're getting there .
RE: Yuna: Poor front-end development on Messenger Plus! 5 Website by CookieRevised on 02-11-2011 at 12:04 AM
PS:
quote:Don't be so sure of that though
Originally posted by SonicSam
Obviously this MyPlus! idea is Yuna's