Shoutbox

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
I do not see how trying to protect someone's income/property is wrong.

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Me neither. Except when they start using tactics which prevent us even watching the DVD I bought with our own money on our own computer or DVD player. There are a couple of protections that are so mangled and illegal (spec wise) that DVD players and computers choke.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
And it starts with the 'little guys', namely you and me. How many of the people using mIRC actually payed for it for example?

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This is a completely different circumstance. People make cracks and keygens so that users do not have to pay for the program. Now, people make programs designed to remove the protection on their DVDs so they can back them up and do what they feel to them.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
It are those 'little guys' who copy and distribute stuff thinking they do nothing wrong, yet it are those very same 'little guys' who complain when a company is trying todo something against it...

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We have a right to backup our DVDs. We have a right to change whatever we want with them. I remove all the ads and crap from my backups. We also have a right to watch the movie I bought on anything in my house.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you want to do something against it or stand up against it, you should start by standing up against your friends and those other 'little guys' who copy stuff, use serialz, warez, cracks, etc.

If you stop copying, using serials, cracks, etc, the 'big companies' wouldn't have any reason to try to prevent illegal distribution...

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You're going to tell me they would stop putting on protections once pirating DVDs ceased? Tell me another one . One of the benifits of removing the protection on a HD DVD is that you can watch it on a monitor and video card which is not HDCP compatible. Otherwise you would have to go and buy a new monitor and card just to watch the movies on your computer. And that would cost a bit, especially after just having bought a HD DVD reader.

In short, the way these companies treat its customers is absurd. Not everyone goes around stealing just because they can. Long live copy protection removal I say. It fills in the holes which the company cannot forfill.

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Originally posted by linx05

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
I do not see how trying to protect someone's income/property is wrong.

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Me neither. Except when they start using tactics which prevent us even watching the DVD I bought with our own money on our own computer or DVD player. There are a couple of protections that are so mangled and illegal (spec wise) that DVD players and computers choke.

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If there are such protections than don't buy that specific edition, but buy one which doesn't have that restrictions. Such restrictions are almost always written on the box...

If you buy something which states 'can't be played on the pc' and you play it on a pc, it is your own fault, harsh, but true...

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Originally posted by linx05

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
And it starts with the 'little guys', namely you and me. How many of the people using mIRC actually payed for it for example?

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This is a completely different circumstance. People make cracks and keygens so that users do not have to pay for the program. Now, people make programs designed to remove the protection on their DVDs so they can back them up and do what they feel to them.

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This is related though. It does start with things like using a keygen. It are such actions why people/companies search for ways to prevent it. It are those things which make it look 'normal' to copy stuff and use illegal materials. People now don't even consider it bad to use serialz. It is this state of mind which is not 'normal' at all... But it is done on such a large scale that many people don't even think about it anymore and don't see what they do is wrong. And then they complain that companies try to protect their income....

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Originally posted by linx05

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
It are those 'little guys' who copy and distribute stuff thinking they do nothing wrong, yet it are those very same 'little guys' who complain when a company is trying todo something against it...

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We have a right to backup our DVDs. We have a right to change whatever we want with them. I remove all the ads and crap from my backups. We also have a right to watch the movie I bought on anything in my house.

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You actually do not have every right. And certainly do not have any right to alter stuff, even for you own use!!!

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Originally posted by linx05

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you want to do something against it or stand up against it, you should start by standing up against your friends and those other 'little guys' who copy stuff, use serialz, warez, cracks, etc.

If you stop copying, using serials, cracks, etc, the 'big companies' wouldn't have any reason to try to prevent illegal distribution...

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You're going to tell me they would stop putting on protections once pirating DVDs ceased? Tell me another one . One of the benifits of removing the protection on a HD DVD is that you can watch it on a monitor and video card which is not DHCP compatible. Otherwise you would have to go and buy a new monitor and card just to watch the movies on your computer. And that would cost a bit, especially after just having bought a HD DVD reader.

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Then don't buy such a DVD if you can't watch it.... or don't complain or don't accuse the companies to screw you. It is clearly stated on the box that it is a HD DVD, requiring DHCP equipment. If you don't have that, buy the normal edition...

This is almost the same as me complaining to a company who makes Mac software for not letting me run it on a PC...

And yes, if nobody would copy stuff anymore (which will never happen of course), then there is no reason for the big companies to put money into developping new copy protections...

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Originally posted by linx05
In short, the way these companies treat its customers is absurd. Not everyone goes around stealing just because they can. Long live copy protection removal I say. It fills in the holes which the company cannot forfill.

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If you don't do anything illegal, you also would have no reason to remove a copy protection in the first place.


There are some copy protections which are not that good, user-friendly-wise. But those are not used anymore. The issue, as I see it, is about the general state of mind "there is nothing wrong in copying and spreading stuff' and/or "it wont hurt anybody if I crack that program".

IMO, companies don't even do enough to fight illegal copying. And I would love to see them sueing eveybody and making copy protections even harder and what not. I have absolutely no problem with that; I buy my DVD if I like a movie, I don't need to download a crappy bootleg.

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Originally posted by linx05
We have a right to backup our DVDs. We have a right to change whatever we want with them. I remove all the ads and crap from my backups.

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Actually you don't, just because you bought the dvd doesnt mean you own its contents including the movie and ads - just as when you purchase software, you're not legally allowed to alter the software in any way for personal or other purposes unless the owner (that is typically the creator) allows you to do so within their license. Removing ads is especially a no-no as those ads were placed on the DVDs for reason, they come as a package with the movie, if you want to watch the movie you gotta put up with the ads too.

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Originally posted by linx05
We also have a right to watch the movie I bought on anything in my house.

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I believe you only have the right to watch the DVD on 'anything' in your house if it is reasonably assumed that the product will be able to be viewed straight out of the box on those devices, for example, I don't think you have the right to watch the contents of a DVD you purchased on your iPod or other portable device. Although I agree that if a DVD doesn't work on some DVD players but does on others then that is just lame.


By the way, I read somewhere that in Australia you're not even legally allowed to video tape television shows, although there are a number of exceptions including educational purposes and such (personal use isn't an exception)...

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Originally posted by Volv
Although I agree that if a DVD doesn't work on some DVD players but does on others then that is just lame.

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true, but then again, buy a decent DVD player. Yes of course it would cost a bit more (although, that is probably not entirly true).

But if you buy a player, read the specs on what it can play. If you're not happy about it, bring it back and buy another one.

But all this is no reason to bitch on a copy protection or 'the big companies', IMHO.

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Originally posted by Volv
By the way, I read somewhere that in Australia you're not even legally allowed to video tape television shows, although there are a number of exceptions including educational purposes and such (personal use isn't an exception)...

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Not only in Australia, in many parts of the world. It has been a long long time that people pay for their cable distribution, etc. Part of that money is a general fee which exactly compensates the money lost by the companies who have the rights on the TV shows or whatever. You'll find this same fee in any other media too, like CDs, DVDs, etc... Even some percentage of the costs of blank media includes such fees.

The fee is very minimal, but it is there. And it shows that it isn't that straightforward to think that stuff is free or that you have every right to copy stuff you own or see, you actually don't...


EDIT: I suppose I need to stress IANAL too...
IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer

IANAL. I really hate that anagram and that it needs to be said. If you're taking legal advice from some anonymous geek on the internets you've got a serious problem.

@linx05 - Sorry, the other guys are right, you don't get much in the way of rights for your purchase. The trouble with the information age is that we spend too much time trying to treat non-scarce items as scarce ones. On some level this needs to happen though, because the people that put their effort into creative [but trivially duplicatable and distributable] works deserve to be paid for their investment. However, it's never going to feel natural unless artistic works are paid for by the state, and communism is too scary a word for most people, so lets not go there.

I think that while media distributors shouldn't have to guarantee that their media will be playable on all your devices, it should sure be legal for you to do so. You've paid the money, so they should have no motivation for stopping you from enjoying your media however you like. [Once it leaves your possession, on the internet or otherwise, feel free to be sued.] DVD purchases don't come with much in the way of an implied license, so the companies are free to lump whatever they like on you. What I think is neat is hardly canon though, the purpose of governments seems to be to remove rights you should be able to take for granted.

In short, "I've paid my money, what more do they want?" ... they want the rest of your money. They are businesses in a capitalist country, and this is just how the world works. Don't like it? Don't sell your soul.

I'm sorry but did you guys actually read what I said? It seems like you didn't.

With DVDs (not HD DVDs) there are some protections which go against the DVD specs. Some which are so mangled players have a hard time trying to load them. So you're saying this is alright to have? When I go out and buy my DVD I expect it to work on every DVD player in my house. Whether it be on my computer or the player for my TV.

We are not talking about ripping HD DVDs and then selling copies off to friends. Because at the moment, that would cost a lot of money to do! We are talking about watching the product I bought with my own money how I want to. This includes setting up a headless computer for HTPC. That way I can load all my DVDs onto the computer and select which movies I'd like to watch etc without causing wear and tear on my originals. Some of them are quite hard to find. When I write scripts I back them up because I do not want to have to go through the pain of writing them again. It is mine, I would rather use a backup copy of my movies than have the original ruined.

And cookie, seriously if you bought a DVD player which says it plays DVDs don't you think you should get what you paid for? But the problem isn't with the players, it is with the way the DVD has been authored. Very, very out of spec. So why is that our fault? And don't give me the "oh well some people copy the DVD and sell it to others so we the honest paying customer has to suffer" speel. Yes, put copy protection on DVDs but make it in spec so that the honest paying customer can watch it on any DVD player they have in the house. For those interested, the discs with the crappy protection mostly come from Germany. Poor guys. They actually need to rip the DVD or use a on-the-fly-decrypter like AnyDVD to watch it on their computer/player.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you don't do anything illegal, you also would have no reason to remove a copy protection in the first place.


There are some copy protections which are not that good, user-friendly-wise. But those are not used anymore. The issue, as I see it, is about the general state of mind "there is nothing wrong in copying and spreading stuff' and/or "it wont hurt anybody if I crack that program".

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Maybe you didn't read my post properly. Protections like this are being used. There is no warning about "this disc will not play in your computer". The case even has the DVD logo on it which means it is, spec wise, in DVD format. It is, by definition, defective. There are many people who are interested in backing up their DVD. It's called FairUse. Australia has a similar law which was passed down a few years ago.

I also suggest you to read this thread Cookie. There was one that was more in depth but it was deleted because the powers that be took down RipIt4Me. Another copy-protection remover.

Yes, people should stop selling DVDs they do not own. But the companies should treat us with respect as it is us who are spending the money.

linx05, those DVDs _are_ in spec. And almost any DVD player can play them. The problem starts when you want to play them on your PC. And that is exactly the thing. Some DVDs (and CDs) are not meant to be played on a PC, because this is how the copies are made. You do not automatically have the right to play them on whatever you want, especially not on a PC, and that is probably what such a copy protection tries to prevent (it is more common with CDs).


But, the whole discussion and 'state of mind' that people have isn't about 1 rare copy protection which only is used in Germany. People have something against all copy protections, and I'm very sure that 99,99% of all people complaining don't even know about the details of copy protections or even don't know the different methods. People just complain because they think they have every right to do what they want with the DVD/CD, they complain about copy protections in general, heck on everything which prevents them to make copies of which they do not have a right to make them.

It is like that whole "Microsoft sucks" thing. The extremely vast majority of kiddies who say it don't even have a clue why they say it, they just do it because it is considered 'cool'. Does that mean Microsoft never ever did something wrong? No, of course not, they did some nasty things to, just like everybody else. The point is that all this yelling upon those companies is in almost all cases not grounded on anything at all and is just a thing from this time...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
linx05, those DVDs _are_ in spec. And almost any DVD player can play them. The problem starts when you want to play them on your PC. And that is exactly the thing. Some DVDs (and CDs) are not meant to be played on a PC, because this is how the copies are made. You do not automatically have the right to play them on whatever you want, especially not on a PC, and that is probably what such a copy protection tries to prevent (it is more common with CDs).

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I'm sorry but those DVDs are not in spec. Read up on it if you do not believe me. Maybe your head has grown too big for this forum? I don't know because you seemed to skim past my whole post and hit the reply button.

If I want to watch a DVD on my computer then I will do that. They can't control us and tell us that "no, computers are a no no". Why can't I play them on my computer? Why can't I watch them on my older DVD player? I bought it so I have the right to. And for you to say that we don't is just ludicrous. Their copy-protection system has gone too far if they prevent us from doing just that.

I'll quote someone from the Doom9 forums:

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It's defective if a player which respects the DVD specs doesn't play it.

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Yes, if the DVD is out of specs it is defective. Shall I re-word that for you?

It is about time people started to stand up to these big companies. I know I am sick of seeing people have to return a DVD 3/4 times only to find out it is a new copy-protection. This isn't about cracking a program or releasing movies on to the Internet. This is about giving the customers what they deserve, fair use. More power to the people in this circumstance.

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Originally posted by WDZ
Digg always ends up annoying me whenever I spend more than a few minutes there... (Smilie)

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That's why I spend time on irc where we have natural feed readers
They parse stories and paste links to the good ones

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Originally posted by ipab
Now because of that, people have absolutely gone nuts and digg has basically shit itself and the first 2 pages are filled with this key. It's by far the most immature / ridiculous thing I have witnessed ever since I have started using the  internet.

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i don't think that speaking up AS THE CONSUMER OF THE PRODUCT makes one immature.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you want to do something against copy protections STOP COPYING STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE.

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Hardly the point. Most of the people buying DVDs aren't copying them.

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Originally posted by Volv
By the way, I read somewhere that in Australia you're not even legally allowed to video tape television shows, although there are a number of exceptions including educational purposes and such (personal use isn't an exception)...

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Time shifting is perfectly legal now.