Shoutbox

yeah... I think you're correct... Plus! could indeed retrieve the system's month and days names and other stuff like that to sort the folders.

But this wouldn't be easy though, as there are a lot of things to consider and people can name the files and folders whatever they want using the registry options. Moreover, the format of the names can change at any time since, again, people can change the registry options at any time too.

So you could have stuff like:
  March 2007
  2006 April
  05/07/06 (and what is what in this format? Plus! couldn't have a clue, so how would this be sorted?)
  2007-03
  January (there is no year, so how would Plus! know where to place it?)
  2006 (same problem as above, but this time with the month)
all in your logs directory....

So, although it might be possible, it still wouldn't be a true nice working way. And sorting it in a alphabetical way at least gives you a true consistant way of searching your folders.

Plus! could be made to parse the names only when possible, for starters it would do if only the standard naming was included (since most people probably doesn't change that).

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
yeah... I think you're correct... Plus! could indeed retrieve the system's month and days names and other stuff like that to sort the folders.

But this wouldn't be easy though, as there are a lot of things to consider and people can name the files and folders whatever they want using the registry options. Moreover, the format of the names can change at any time since, again, people can change the registry options at any time too.

So you could have stuff like:
  March 2007
  2006 April
  05/07/06 (and what is what in this format? Plus! couldn't have a clue, so how would this be sorted?)
  2007-03
  January (there is no year, so how would Plus! know where to place it?)
  2006 (same problem as above, but this time with the month)
all in your logs directory....

So, although it might be possible, it still wouldn't be a true nice working way. And sorting it in a alphabetical way at least gives you a true consistant way of searching your folders.

---

There is a simple and easy answer to this problem.

Most programmers should be aware of the iso date format (8601).

This stores the date in the format of yyyy-mm-dd.

With this there will never be confusion over dd-mm or mm-dd because its in order of most significant to least significant. Plus its sortable in alphabetical order too.

Yes indeed.

But that doesn't provide a sorting fix for the user who isn't aware of that format and who still has many different styles of formats in his log directory or uses a different format than another user.

So,

quote:

---

Originally posted by lysp
There is a simple and easy answer to this problem.
Most programmers should be aware of the iso date format (8601).

---

This isn't an answer or solution to how to implement an alternative sorting in the program itself.

Bottom line is that naming the folders in a good way is the job for the user, not for the program. So, Plus! can't do anything about that, except for providing the user with the ability to name the folder however he/she wants. And that is what Plus! does via the registry options.

Conclussion: The solution isn't to alter the sorting method, the solution is to alter the naming of the folders.

Plus! could sort folders in the Event Viewer based upon their naming like suggested by skorpan. But this will not be a good solution/feature at all because of what is said here.

The only proper solution is for yourself to (re)name your folders in such a way that they are sorted the way you want using the alphabetic sorting order (indeed like using the international date format).

The reason this thread is in existence is because Messenger Plus! is not working in a logical way.
The whole point of computer software is to make out lives/tasks easier, quicker and more logical, so we can easily understand it.

The date format of the file/folder naming was just unwittingly coded in the wrong format in the first place... creating this mess.  These slip-ups happen all the time, and are a fact of life, but it's a simple job of making a few changes to correct it and getting nearer to perfection...  The Goal of any programmer surely?

Log files, by definition, are all about archiving data with respect to when it happened in time.  All this is recorded chronologically and sequentially.
The reason for recording logs is to make the date available for reexamining at a later date.  So it's wise to store this date in a logical and useful format.

With instant messaging, we're in the business of talking to people, so splitting up the log files one for each person (email address in this case) is an extremely logical thing to do.  So having a folder per email address is good.
Splitting it up into Month folders with a log file per email address has got it's applications, but is more rarely needed i reckon.

After that, you'd want to then store log files within that folder with chronological file names, so that they naturally sort that way by default.

I gather there might be performance issues with having an individual log file per conversation, so that's why they are currently stored in monthly files.
This is where MP falls over and is illogical.  Having all the Decembers grouped together is of no use at all....  The log files must flow chronologically by default.

If i need to find something in the logs, i almost certainly know who the conversation was with... now i just need to remember when abouts the conversation took place and look in the corresponding month file...  After looking in a couple, around the guessed time, you should find what you were looking for.  Sorted!

But at the moment, we open up the persons folder and all the month files are clumped together, nothing is chronologically ordered...  There's probably several years worth of date that has been backed up, copied over a few times, so that file creation/modification dates are not what they should be and it confuses and annoys the yell out of you and you throw the monitor out of the window ... Or start writing comments on the forums!

The ISO date format is just 100% logical and a wonderful thing.
Here's the ISO's website describing the Standard: The ISO solution to a long-standing source of confusion
To suggest that some people will find this format strange is true but that is an extremely weak statement...  Someone who might be 'not very computer-literate' will look at this might think "ooh, it's a bit different... Ah, here what I'm looking for"  That confusion will last fractions of a second before the natural order of data helps them find what they are looking for.  It's simple & logical, so it's easily and quickly learnt.  So this is a non-issue.

So sensible defaults I'd guess would be this:

code:

---

...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-12 (December).ple

---

A path/filename format like this should be 100% logical and useful for almost all the users of Messenger Plus!  Those that have specific needs that require it in other formats can then go off into the registry and tweak away.

Messenger Plus! should work logically out-of-the-box.  So let's fix it so that from this point onwards, it works correctly.

The default format of the naming convention is more user friendly /readable than the industry-like ISO format. It uses the user's local system format to name the folders.

And as said before also, you as the user does have the ability to name the folders however you want.

As for sorting, this has consequences:
Sorting must be done in such way that it is logical nomatter how the logs are named. This can only be achieved if you sort alphabetically, which is very logical (unless you don't know the alphabet). So nothing needs to be changed in the logviewer at all or in the way it sorts the files and folders. Which is explained several times in this discussion.

quote:

---

I gather there might be performance issues with having an individual log file per conversation, so that's why they are currently stored in monthly files.
This is where MP falls over and is illogical.  Having all the Decembers grouped together is of no use at all....  The log files must flow chronologically by default.

---

This hasn't got anything todo with performance issues. They are stored by default the way they are because "January 2007" is more readable and user friendly than "200701, "2007-01", "2007/01", etc. It is the system's default. That is why it was done that way by default.

You couldn't agree with it, but that is why there is the possebility to change it (although this needs to be done in the not-user-friendly registry).

quote:

---

Messenger Plus! should work logically out-of-the-box.  So let's fix it so that from this point onwards, it works correctly.

---

Absolutely no arguments there. But still, except for the point that it currently doesn't work with some form of ISO8601, you can change to it.

Also the fact that not everybody in the world uses the same calender type plays a major roll here. The ISO8601 is simply not a natural way of representing a date, yes it is unambiguous (mostly, as that can also be debated actually), but is is unnatural for a very large part of the world (except for Japan or something).

This again makes that using the local system date format is far more user friendly, out-of-the-box.

And seeing that only one or two people out of the million users have a real problem with all this, I don't think that the default method it currently uses is so inlogical and inpractible.

You can agree with it or not; natural language like or international standard like, and you would be correct, just as the others would be correct too...

The rest of the people simply change the format once, to the way they want and be done with it.

OK, so can we assume that most people, when they are looking for a chat log will know exactly who the chat was with??? ...and roughly when the chat was...  give or take a month or two.  This is true for all the times i've been looking thru my chat logs.

I think this is the default???  'Save By Date'  i.e. the out-of-box experience

code:

---

...\My Chat Logs\December 2006\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com.ple
...\My Chat Logs\December 2007\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com.ple
...\My Chat Logs\March 2006\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com.ple
...\My Chat Logs\March 2007\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com.ple

---

This is not very useful and not logical.
Having to look in several folders, just to see if there is a log for the person you were chatting to...
Trying to find the right month in the year you were talking to them... and then trying to find the next month, or the previous month... skipping backwards and forwards thru the list as it's out of chronological order...


Now we have the other option, 'Save By Email'

code:

---

...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\April 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\April 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\August 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\August 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\December 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\December 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\February 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\February 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\January 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\January 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\July 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\July 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\June 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\June 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\March 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\March 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\May 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\May 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\November 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\November 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\October 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\October 2007.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\September 2006.ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\September 2007.ple

---

More user friendly, as all the logs for one person are in a single folder.
But they in the totally wrong and illogical order.  Not easy on the eyes and not easy for searching thru... As with the first example.  OK, singularly, the filename is very descriptive, but if you have more than one file in the folder, it then becomes confusing.


OK, the ISO Date format is not being used in it's full.
The idea of talking about the ISO standard is to use the fundamental features of it that will make all this easy.
The five 'Advantages' listed in the document on the standard are all relevant here:

quote:

---

* Easily readable and writable by systems
* Easily comparable and sortable
* Language independent
* Larger units are written in front of smaller units
* For most representations the notation is short and of constant length

---

So we could have something that is very easy on the eye, something that sorts naturally (alphanumerically=default on all systems), very easy to scan down to find what we are looking for, as it all lines up... Irrespective of where in the world you live.

So we could have it looking like this.  All logs for one person are in a single folder, that works well as seen above.  Then the monthly filenames are in the form: Year, then month number followed by the Month Name (which will help us with trying to remember which month is which number).  Naturally sorts correctly and can not cause any confusion with any user, of any level

code:

---

...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-01 (January).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-02 (February).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-03 (March).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-04 (April).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-05 (May).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-06 (June).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-07 (July).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-08 (August).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-09 (September).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-10 (October).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-11 (November).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2006-12 (December).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-01 (January).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-02 (February).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-03 (March).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-04 (April).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-05 (May).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-06 (June).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-07 (July).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-08 (August).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-09 (September).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-10 (October).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-11 (November).ple
...\My Chat Logs\fred.bloggs@hotmail.com\2007-12 (December).ple

---

User-friendly

The fact that we have the ability to change the registry to make Messenger Plus! do the above with the folder/file naming must mean that it is a rather easy job for Patchou to make this change such that Messenger Plus! is user-friendly out-of-the-box for everyone.

We all know how the ISO8601 works. The fact remains that there is a reason why the local system format is used over the ISO8601 standard by default. It may have been a wrong decision in the past in your eyes, but that is the way it is.

If you want to change it, change it in the registry.

As for your last part: No, if some setting is located in the registry it is by no means easy to integrate this into the GUI of the program. There are very big differences between checking upon an registry setting internally, and providing a user-friendly GUI options panel with all the proper translations and explainations, options, etc.

This can be easily compensated for if we just get a little "Sort by Date Create"/"Sort by Name" feature. And I personally would prefer it, but realistically it is not a necessity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
We all know how the ISO8601 works. The fact remains that there is a reason why the local system format is used over the ISO8601 standard by default. It may have been a wrong decision in the past in your eyes, but that is the way it is.

---

The ISO standard was created to fix these exact problems.  Why not take some of its escence, and make your software work better the world over.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you want to change it, change it in the registry.

---

The registry should be the place you head to when you have some non-standard/rare needs to be catered for.
What we have been asking about in this and other threads is that is should work better by default. (And to perhaps make any changes easier to make as a bonus)

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
As for your last part: No, if some setting is located in the registry it is by no means easy to integrate this into the GUI of the program. There are very big differences between checking upon an registry setting internally, and providing a user-friendly GUI options panel with all the proper translations and explainations, options, etc.

---

Simple, set the Save By Email option as default, and change the default filename registry entries to give us a format like above.  No GUI changes needed.