Shoutbox

It is very unfortunate that your program attempts to bundle malware with it.


It is unfortunate not only because it seems morally wrong to begin with, but also because the people who download this complain to people like me and my colleagues who have to clean up the mess of malware that a standard installation of Messenger Plus! puts on a computer. We have enough to deal with everyday on our volunteer time removing backdoor trojans and other money stealing malware, but also we have to deal with the adware that comes from this program.


I beg you reconsider. You have a loyal fan base; I know they wont mind.

Regards,

screen317
www.spywareinfoforum.com

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Originally posted by screen317
It is very unfortunate that your program attempts to bundle malware with it.

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Originally posted by Wikipedia
Software is considered malware based on the perceived intent of the creator rather than any particular features. Malware includes computer viruses, worms, trojan horses, most rootkits, spyware, dishonest adware, crimeware and other malicious and unwanted software

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With a separated license agreement, and the option to install it or not being very explicit during the instalation, I don't guess Plus!'s optional adware can be considered malware.

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Originally posted by screen317
It is unfortunate not only because it seems morally wrong to begin with,

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Is it wrong to try to earn some honest money with your own creation?

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Originally posted by screen317
but also because the people who download this complain to people like me and my colleagues

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These same people who didn't care to READ what they were agreeing upon clicking "I Agree" everywhere they can?

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Originally posted by screen317
who have to clean up the mess of malware that a standard installation of Messenger Plus! puts on a computer.

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If I recall correctly, in the installer you have to click either I refuse or I agree, so there's no "standart" installation. If I recalled it incorrectly, I'm sure Patchou wouldn't have pre-selected the "I Agree" option.
Also, why don't you ever try to use "Add and Remove Programs" (XP) / "Programs and Features" (Vista / 7) to remove it? Did you know the uninstaller is included?

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Originally posted by screen317
We have enough to deal with everyday on our volunteer time removing backdoor trojans and other money stealing malware, but also we have to deal with the adware that comes from this program.

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The adware that comes with this program is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. Sorry if you didn't bother to check if it was or not.

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Originally posted by screen317
I beg you reconsider.

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How about making a "confirmation" page including adware's license and asking if you really want to install it? Oh, forgot, done already.

Sorry if it seems to be a disrespectful text, it wasn't meant to be.

also, the new version is just an Ask Toolbar and a Homepage change. Both of which (exactly like the old Sponsor) can be removed via Add Remove Programs... (which is something I'd expect you and your colleagues to know, if you are "repairing" machines )

Additionally, if you still don't agree to just unchecking the box that installs those items, you can send a large cheque to Patchou so he doesn't have to use this method

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Originally posted by blessedguy
With a separated license agreement, and the option to install it or not being very explicit during the instalation, I don't guess Plus!'s optional adware can be considered malware.

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he didn't just say malicious -- and I'm pretty sure by no means is lop ever purposefully installed.

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Originally posted by SonicSam
also, the new version is just an Ask Toolbar and a Homepage change.

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meh... it's a lot better now, but if you want to be perfectly fair, this is why we don't use daemon tools. if msgplus didn't have such a big monopoly on the messenger extension market, not so many people would be using it.


come on patchou, richard stallman is able to live with a normal income and no luxuries (like cars or haircuts ,) surviving on only the fact that he's leading a life about as fulfilling as it gets (and changing the world!)

just turn msgplus into a FOSS project, and it'll make everyone happy! okay, maybe that's asking a bit much -- but drop this sponsor business

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Originally posted by ShawnZ

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Originally posted by blessedguy
With a separated license agreement, and the option to install it or not being very explicit during the instalation, I don't guess Plus!'s optional adware can be considered malware.

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he didn't just say malicious

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Neither did blessedguy say "malicious". Blessedguy gave the definition of malware and explained why the sponsor isn't malware; "Malware" being the exact word used by the OP.

sidenote/comment:

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Originally posted by ShawnZ
come on patchou, richard stallman is able to live with a normal income and no luxuries (like cars or haircuts ,) surviving on only the fact that he's leading a life about as fulfilling as it gets (and changing the world!)

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lol.... Why on earth would Patchou, or anyone else for that matter, want to start living like Richard Stallman? It's not for nothing that he is called 'excentric'. I don't see you living like Richard either, eventhough you're a big advocate of 'free software'. I don't see why anybody earning money in an honest way, should change their lifes. Besides, even Richard Stallman finds it more than ok if authors would ask money or have a way to ensure an honest income from their work, as long as their isn't any restriction in usage.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Neither did blessedguy say "malicious". Blessedguy gave the definition of malware and explained why the sponsor isn't malware; "Malware" being the exact word used by the OP.

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but the definition of malware he posted includes "unwanted software"

Thank you for the replies everyone. Sincerely, it means a lot...

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Originally posted by toddy


sums it up well

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...except for that^, which was just uncalled for.

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Originally posted by Wikipedia
Software is considered malware based on the perceived intent of the creator rather than any particular features. Malware includes computer viruses, worms, trojan horses, most rootkits, spyware, dishonest adware, crimeware and other malicious and unwanted software

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With a separated license agreement, and the option to install it or not being very explicit during the instalation, I don't guess Plus!'s optional adware can be considered malware.

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Is it wrong to try to earn some honest money with your own creation?

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No, but the creator of Messenger Plus! is not making honest money off of his creation. The only money he gets is off of the installation of the sponsor software, which is not his own creation.

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These same people who didn't care to READ what they were agreeing upon clicking "I Agree" everywhere they can?

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Correct, these same people. Are you telling me that it is only because of the gullibility of the general population who don't know any better and who do not want this sponsor software, that the adware is still supported? What was this "honest money" you were referring to?

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If I recall correctly, in the installer you have to click either I refuse or I agree, so there's no "standart" installation. If I recalled it incorrectly, I'm sure Patchou wouldn't have pre-selected the "I Agree" option.
Also, why don't you ever try to use "Add and Remove Programs" (XP) / "Programs and Features" (Vista / 7) to remove it?

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Did you know the uninstaller is included?

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I am aware that an uninstaller is included; however, I have always had the policy to never trust uninstallers from the creators of any type of malware.

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The adware that comes with this program is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. Sorry if you didn't bother to check if it was or not.

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Optional yes, but it relies on the ignorance of the general population. It doesn't have to be pre-checked, because the author knows people will click "I agree" regardless. Is this not exploiting ignorance?

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How about making a "confirmation" page including adware's license and asking if you really want to install it? Oh, forgot, done already.

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Why not remove the adware all together and not resort to trickery to make "honest money?"

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Sorry if it seems to be a disrespectful text, it wasn't meant to be.

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It does not seem that way, and I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.


I will respond to the other posts after I do some testing.. Thank you for the responses everyone, though some of the snide remarks didn't have to be said...


-screen317

Edited to fix quotes.

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Originally posted by screen317
I am aware that an uninstaller is included; however, I have always had the policy to never trust uninstallers from the creators of any type of malware.

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http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=21598

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Originally posted by screen317

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Is it wrong to try to earn some honest money with your own creation?

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No, but the creator of Messenger Plus! is not making honest money off of his creation. The only money he gets is off of the installation of the sponsor software, which is not his own creation.

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Errrr.... hence the term 'sponsor' and 'ads'...
By your definition, everybody who has ads on their webpage are being dishonest and/or stealing money? Including the children who let their parents and family sponsor them per km they run in that yearly schoolrun? etc... Their is absolutely nothing dishonest about earning money via sponsors.

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Originally posted by screen317

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These same people who didn't care to READ what they were agreeing upon clicking "I Agree" everywhere they can?

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Correct, these same people. Are you telling me that it is only because of the gullibility of the general population who don't know any better and who do not want this sponsor software, that the adware is still supported? What was this "honest money" you were referring to?

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Errr (again).... It is not because somebody does not read a, VERY visible, mandatory* choice that the author is being dishonest. Nobody is tricked here! If people don't care to read what they install then it is they who need to change their habits. In the real world you also don't go buying and signing stuff without first reading stuff. And before you reply with "but the small print...": it is very clearly stated in 'normal' print, before the EULA (aka small print), what the optional sponsor is and will do. This is a far more honest way of using a sponsor than most other programs on the net!!!!!

*(in the sense that you must make a choice, nothing is preselected!)

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Originally posted by screen317
I am aware that an uninstaller is included; however, I have always had the policy to never trust uninstallers from the creators of any type of malware.

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In some circumstances (with real malware) you are correct, but in this case you do far more 'damage' using 3rd party tools since there is not a single 3rd party application which properly uninstalls the optional ad sponsor from C2Media which is/was bundled with Plus!. Not even apps like Spybot S&D, Hijackthis, etc! They all leave traces behind and/or even damage the uninstaller.

Your policy, as a decent PC-repair dude, should be: Check the official documentation and/or official forums and/or other official knowledge bases first, where people base their stuff on facts, not on hear-say or their own incompetents. And use a virtual machine to check if the uninstaller works as it should be for yourself. And if so, use the provided uninstaller! Otherwise, and I am very sorry to say, I don't see you as a real knowledgable PC-repair dude who knows what he is talking about, but instead simply bases his 'knowledge' on hear-say and other (wrong) assumptions.

So, the policy for uninstalling apps should always be to first see if their is a dedicated/included uninstaller... If you don't trust these uninstallers then use a virtuale machine to check it out.

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Originally posted by screen317
Optional yes, but it relies on the ignorance of the general population. It doesn't have to be pre-checked, because the author knows people will click "I agree" regardless. Is this not exploiting ignorance?

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Nope it is not, as it is VERY clearly explained on that same page what is being installed though. There is no trickery involved here. Trickery is when there is no clear and very visible text explaning what is being installed.

If there was simply an "I agree" and "I don't agree" choice without any other explanation on that same line and page and without any special title on that page, without a second confirmation on the EULA, then you would be correct. But this isn't and never was the case for Messenger Plus!.

PS:

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Originally posted by screen317
... to discuss this

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It has been discussed a number of times before though. And each time people come with the same arguments and each time we reply with the same facts. You might wanna search the forums for those previous discussions.

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Originally posted by screen317
For Christ's sake do you hope to scare me away by continuing to insult me??

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Nah, toddy is just a bit of an ass sometimes ( u toddy )

Anyway, as stated before, the LOP sponsor is completely optional and does not necessarily need to be installed in order to use Messenger Plus! Live.
Furthermore, it is neither accepted nor denied by default in the installer, so the user is given a choice.
You called this the exploitation of ignorance, but I ask you now, who's at fault here? Is it the developer who is giving the user an obvious choice on whether or not to support the software or is it the user who is too ignorant (or lazy) to actually read what he's agreeing on?

Anyway, there have been quite a few complaints like yours before. As SonicSam pointed out earlier in this thread, the LOP sponsor is being phased out (or has already been phased out, I'm not sure on that) right now, so less and less people should have problems with it.

EDIT: oh and toddy, you might want to take a look in this old, but still valid thread