Hello everyone,

one day has passed since my last post about code sharing and I've now cooled-down a little (mostly because some of the people, who posted the original threads I was complaining about, publicly made fools of themselves by insisting on empty/bogus arguments). I would have liked to continue this discussion on MSN Fanatic as this is about development but I don't want some of their users to continue to spit on me for no reason while I'm asking for opinions. If you have contacts on MSN Fanatic that you know will be interested by this topic, please ask them to reply here, that way, we'll be sure to have a nice, clean debate (everybody has the right to say bad things about me, but nicely, without sarcasm and with a smile ). I have absolutely nothing against the MSN Fanatic community so if the situation gets better there, I'll probably move this thread to their forum (I'll do it when I'll be sure that some of their users won't spoil the whole idea because of their "opinion" about me).

If you followed the "code-sharing" thread on MSN Fanatic at the beginning of the month, you've seen that I was asking for the opinion of developers and I got it. Some people wanted tutorials, some people wanted a multi-function DLL. The thread was concluded by people complaining that I was not replying fast enough and that waiting for an eventual compromise was just an excuse (which lead to my post yesterday in the News section). Well, I'm ok with deciding by myself with what I think is best for the community so here is the result of my thoughts on the matter.

About the multi-function DLL, I don't think it's a good idea. It would never have enough functions to satisfy everyone. As for tutorials, again, it's a problem because a lot of people would expect full-functional code they can copy/past while the original intent is to share knowledge, not help every developer to make his own little hack tool.

What's my idea then? well, that may sound kinda strange but if you read the rest of my post, it will help you understand it. My suggestion is simple: to release the full source code of Messenger Plus! 1.42 (the latest release in the 1.x series). When I got the idea, I thought this would probably be the best thing for several reasons: within the code, you'll find a lot of valuable information about Messenger inner workings as long as the proper hooking techniques to hook in the Messenger process safely and efficiently. However, Messenger Plus! 1.42 not being compatible with Messenger 6, it will prevent people to use its code directly to do their own tool and that's very important. In short, what I'm saying is that Messenger Plus! 1.42 is too old to be used in today's Messenger versions as-is (it does work wonderfully with Windows Messenger 4.x though) but it's still full of the early techniques I developed when I was experimenting with MSN Messenger. Messenger Plus! 2.x was recreated from scratch but the basic hooking techniques stayed almost identical as they were perfected from version 1.00 to version 1.40.

As you can see, this is a big suggestion and I'm very serious about it. I need your feedback about that (developers only please) and I'll gladly answer to any question you may have about the project (this thread is there for that reason). The code of Messenger Plus! 1.42 is mostly in Language C (there is not much C++ in Messenger Plus! 1.x because at that time, I was rewriting the same code again and again while I was learning better techniques and hooking is not very suited for object oriented programming). If we conclude that this is the good way to go, I'll have to do some clean up, translate all my french comments in english, add as much new comments as possible to document the important parts, ... (it will take me more than a couple of days to do that, please remember it if you feel like creating a thread about the delay ).

Again, I can't insist enough on the fact that without your feedback, nothing will happen. This is a community thing so there's no point in me doing it alone.

I'm looking forward to see what you all have to say about this,
Patchou

i dont know C so...
Anyway, the only idea of u releasing some of ur sourse seems great, as u said that u would never do it loong time ago

I don't know any C... yet

I am torn between 2 minds on this subject. While we can assume there are only a few people who have been less that polite on this subject, the whole idea just seems a bit unfair towards you. Me personally, wouldn't want to share anything that I have worked so hard to make. Don't like the idea of you giving away trade secrets so to speak.

However, have to view this picture as the whole, and realise that this is probably a very good way to help out the budding programmers out there. While its good that this will not allow a copy and paste job, it should be the spark that ignites the young minds

Another thing - although this could be seen as a separate topic from this one - is to increase the abilities of plugins in the current version of Plus. This is separate because it doesn't really have the teaching power that releasing the source code would have.

I don't know the answer to your question, because I don't know myself if I want to see the source code released. I am equally torn between the 2 ideas

P.S. You calm down a lot faster than I would

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everybody has the right to say bad things about me, but nicely, without sarcasm and with a smile

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(developers only please)

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Originally posted by Patchou
My suggestion is simple: to release the full source code of Messenger Plus! 1.42 (the latest release in the 1.x series).

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Originally posted by Chrono
i dont know C so...

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Originally posted by Jehuty
<---I am still smiling

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Originally posted by Jehuty
Well, chromo isn't, neither am I, and he said something, so I will

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This is underdork from msnfagnatic.com

I just informed myself on the entire situation, and I am responding to it.

To stay on the topic, 'code sharing'.

I wasnt fast enough to respond to the msnfanatic topic about it
I would personally love to peek into your code. Testing it out, how you prevented it from going 'evil'. How the message gets from the textbox to the logged file on the hard disk.

UnderDOC

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Originally posted by underdoc
This is underdork from msnfagnatic.com

I just informed myself on the entire situation, and I am responding to it

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Patchou thats a Great idea it'll provide people with a basis to start off on however i know it's very difficult to make external programs work with Messenger 6.  So why not drop a few hints or tips on how to get things to work inside of messenger.  although releasing the source to 1.42 is the best thing since sliced bread

As an ex-developer (made some big programs back in the stone age *DOS*):

Every snipped of code in any language, providing it is very well documented, can give tons of information. Although most information is available (like hooking) it is snipped across the net. It would be great for people involved in Messenger-programming (let's call it that) to see a concrete example on how it is done.

However, and this shouldn't let you stop publishing it, you will get complaints like: "He still didn't release a thing", "It's all old information", "It's useless". Well I know, you'll know that these comments are from people who don't want to learn or are *fill in the blank*...

But there is also the kind that doesn't have enough knowledge to take advantage of it, yet they still wanna have fun, learn and develop. For those people, a further development of the plugins would be very great... (Then I think about the ability for plugins to react on recieved messages without user input with the /x* commands, that would be a major step forward... -> bot creating for example (which is in great demand))

But indeed you can't satisfy everyone and that's something we all have to deal with it, whatever you decide...
Happy thinking and head-breaking thoughts

I was never Really Glad that you were sharing your Codes
I think that MSN would Have just taken your codes and then told you to bug off.... So I'm Glad you Decided not too...... but it's not my Choice it's yours.... this is just my "opinion" I dont think that Patchou is a horrible whatever other people think he is on msnfantic
infact i think More that Patchou is a great developer and i think he made the "right" decision in my mind but maybe not other peoples

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Vantage Looks around to see if Patchou is watching

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ill take it, i know basic c

Glad you've changed your mind, Patchou.

Well... I personally believe that while releasing the source code will undoubtedly mean problems such as people not giving appropriate credit, fake installers with trojans, among a host of other problems, I also believe that releasing the source community will yield some great benefits to the entire Messenger community. Sure, I understand that people will be redistributing it with viruses, and that will undoubtedly be easy to do. However that is already perfectly possible, so I don't see much difference with respect to that. The users have to be well-educated to only download software from the official site or authorised mirrors. And to run a virus scanner, obviously.

Possibly the most important thing to decide is on the license to use, or whether to create your own. But really, do what you think is best for the community and yourself, Patchou, weighing the pros and the cons appropriately. I'm sure you'll never be forgotten whichever way you pick.

Pedro.

Sounds like a great idea to release the old version of Plus!, It would teach everyone quite a bit I think

Theres a great documentation on hooking MSN 6, I'm sure that along with this code will go a long way. Although it wont keep the VB people happy .

Patchou, read my PM .

*edit*

May I add, I have never said anything bad about Messenger Plus! so people don't put words in my mouth .

I've cooled down from the 'insults' and are being a good boy now .

I don't know any C so it won't do any good for me. I only know/am learning  VB

I just think it will result in many new add-ons just like plus!

...and that can be a good thing. Competition is good, as long as it stays "healthy"....

Nice Patchou, Good Patchou
*Pats Patchou On Head*

Now i have something to learn C++ for

Cool! That would be most excellent to release the source of MsgPlus 1! It amy be old, but very useful never the less!

Thanks Patchou!

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
As an ex-developer (made some big programs back in the stone age *DOS*):

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Thats great Patchou!...
Many others (including myself) would have probably never kept going considering the recations you were given. Dont worry about those ungreatful people, Think of all the people that will benifit from your deciding to realease this old version of Plus!.. Thanks Again
Matty

Hi. I'm reletivly new. Let me gte this straight.

Patchou said he wanted to share the code for msgplus, some sadi no and posted offesive messaegs so patchou said he wouldn't, but now he has chnaged his mind and has decided to share an old version of msg plus for people who want to create plugins, correct??

KIOFCOKI

That is correct king_of_cool_kids. If Patchou gets enough support for realsing the code for Messenger Plus! 1.42, hes has said he will release it.
Just read his first post to this thread Here

yeah. I just did. Some really good comments.

Here is my opinion:

Pros: People will be able to develop from it and produce new things to share with people.

Cons: Someone might steal it, find a flaw (dought there is any) and sell it for money.

There are many more but those are the biggest ones. I am for it but it is a bog dission. You need to think about it lots!!

KIOFCOKI

good idea patchou

Don't worry, bodoby will really be able to "steal" anything.. as I said in my first post, Messenger Plus! 1.4 is not compatible with Messenger 6 at all and so much work would be involved in making a Messenger 6 compatible addon with nice features that it couldn't be considered "stealing" anymore . That's why I thought it was a good idea in the first place.. it's safe for everyone and with a lot of good things to learn . Of course, I may be wrong about the second statement and that's one of the reasons why I'm waiting for everyone's posts.

i vote yes, share it
it will help beginners like me try and learn from pro's

just like skateboarding, ask dom., u try so hard and then when a pro comes along you try even harder and he respects you for it

ps: make it a poll?

Its a nice gesture to the developers, i say go for it, but i also suggest you think about the idea of a module-based plus a bit more

I say release it, I would like the opportunity to learn from it

Module based Suxors completly as people can just rip into Plus and Patchou would get hounded from the first time someone made a dodgy module

At least if he releases the old source he can cover himself as it contains nothing harmful (Well i hope it doesnt )  And like he said it gives people the ideas not the means to make an add-on

The only thing harmful you'll find is my code is the structure itself.. I'm almost ashamed to release this old thing. One thing is for sure: I'll have to rework some parts of the code before I make it public or everybody will see me as an amateur .

personaly, the program is freeware so why not the source ?

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Originally posted by Patchou
The only thing harmful you'll find is my code is the structure itself.. I'm almost ashamed to release this old thing. One thing is for sure: I'll have to rework some parts of the code before I make it public or everybody will see me as an amateur .

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Originally posted by jackass_wanabe
personaly, the program is freeware so why not the source ?

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Originally posted by jackass_wanabe
personaly, the program is freeware so why not the source ?
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Well thats kinda obvious Patchou doesnt want people ripping his code he worked for days on to make Crappy add-ons.  Plus Patchous Messenger code is extremly strong so if people can see his techniques they could potentially do a lot of damage

so if we had the code we could ruin his reputation.........and messenger bums would realise what they need to change......so end of hooking?

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Originally posted by Patchou
I'll have to rework some parts of the code before I make it public or everybody will see me as an amateur

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I'll say go for it... Great you are still wanting to help after what all ppl said to you. To be honest i don't really followed everything, but it was my first time seeing Fraise mad on IRC because of what people said to you... and she was damn mad, so impressive you still continue on doing this

sound like some people said really nasty things?? Where can I find it?? Is it a forum??

KIOFCOKI

Hey i lost track of the past two threads on fanatic so im not sure quite how they turned out, anyways source sounds like a good idea. Can i enquire into the level of documentation that will be provided with the source? is there line by line stuff or will you be giving us a huge ass text file with it?

Oh and what licence will be distributed with it? limitations of use etc

Cheers

patchou has comments for himslef to know hats going on, and he'll make htem legible. i assume he'll add some, too. but i doubt this willl be enuff for a person new at C.

The code will not be intended for people who want to learn language C. There will be enough comments however so that junior C/C++ programmers (let's say, with at the very least 1 year of experience) can try to understand some of the concepts . You may not remember it but this version of Plus! was working very finw with MSN Messenger 3.6 too so it means that it doesn't even access the API to do any of its things; everything is based on tricks and hooks, that's why this version is good for learning (at least, I hope ).

After All Actually, I think it might be usefull so I've changed According to my last post :0) but I though u were giving out all your codes thats why I wasn't "okay" with the Idea with it but like I said it my last post ...

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It's your Choice not mine

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Why do I get a Plus!Lite login thing when I go to this specific page ?

Anyway, as great as it sounds - will people actually learn from this source code? No, people will rip at it like hungry dogs. Of course there will be one or two (three even) people who will learn something out of the code - but who's to say that they will release anything . What kind of competition for Plus! will Plus! code create ? I can't see much - if any.

I'm still a great beleiver in a DLL and the source from the DLL and so are many other people. I don't see any good appart from extra knowledge for the limited number of C coders around. Or maybe, this will attract some decent (C/C++) coders to the Messenger scene

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
...Every snipped of code in any language, providing it is very well documented, can give tons of information...

...However, and this shouldn't let you stop publishing it, you will get complaints like: "He still didn't release a thing", "It's all old information", "It's useless"...

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Originally posted by ecko_complex
Why do I get a Plus!Lite login thing when I go to this specific page ?

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Cookie you're right about the complaints - especialy from non C coders.

*edit*

In fact you are completely right in saying that.

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Originally posted by ecko_complex
especialy from non C coders.

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No, what I meant is that if there are people that will complain, they won't be C coders, they will code in VB (as a majority of the people on the net do).

Yeah well... what can we do about it? Messenger Plus! is C/C++...

There's nothing we can do about it, was just pointing it out .

I understand that thing about VB developers, but as you said yourself, there's nothing I can do about it. Hooking techniques are not meant for VB, it's just the way it is . If it is true that the code won't benefit anybody, I won't bother releasing it and that's why I'm waiting for the feedback of other developers. It's a shame that most of the new developers want to wtick with Visual Basic, you don't know what you're missing .

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If it is true that the code won't benefit anybody, I won't bother releasing it and that's why I'm waiting for the feedback of other developers.

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That's because a poll would be useless... it would be like asking "do you want to receive a free PlayStation II or do you prefer to get the 5,000 page how to construct your own PlayStation II yourself manual". I'm preventing exactly what you thought I was doing in the first place: giving false hopes.

As I said in my first post, a multi-function DLL would never satisfy every-one and this sollution cannot go hand-in-hand with giving source-code. As I said many times in the past before, I'm not in favor of open-source software thus, I do not wish to share the Messenger Plus! 2 source (for many many reasons who are in no way related to personal fame or money if that's what you have in head ). I explained many times the risks involved and I'm again reminding you that this would be fatal to everyone. A DLL that anybody could use to do anything in Messenger would allow the fcreation of trojans, spy-programs, and the only result would be a new version of Messenger from Microsoft where no add-on could hook anything useful enough (beleive me, that's entirely possible technically).

People can still reply "yes give me the source" in here though, no diffrent than in a poll - which would be more statistical and easy to get a definate answer. Also discussion can also happen on the poll from what I've seen with forums these days .

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't feel threatened by a trojan made by someone who cannot hook MSN 6 and 'do anything with Messenger'. But of course this doesn't apply to 'beginner' users.

Possibly the best suggestion yet. I think it's an inspired thought because it tempers knowledge and original thought.

However, and I can't stress this too much, if people are to create their own programs for Messenger 6 (on Xp) after learning from any released source code, it is imperative that they know how to setup the registry with the correct CLSID information. As far as I can work out, Patchou is the only one who knows how to do it and it's basically stifling Messenger 6 development. So if the man could release that information aswell I think we'd all be set for writing inovative stuff.

Good on you Patch,

Windy

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Originally posted by Patchou
I understand that thing about VB developers, but as you said yourself, there's nothing I can do about it.

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Originally posted by wtbw
Not when you've got me around Patch

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I'd beat Bill into the Ground if Plus couldnt hook

And i cant imagine msn ever stopping you completly as you seem to give them ideas

Hi,

Well if you release your old source code, many of us will read it for many reasons, someone trying to learn something out of it, or curiosity, etc, etc. personally I would like to see part of the code for MSN6, like how you did the "custom names" thing and the "/nick" thing
so... I think releasing you old source I think would be good, so people can hook into msn, in a "safe way" like you said hehe

bye

Well, maybe you don't recall all the problems I got when Messenger 6 was released but I certainely do. To be honest, I'm now probably more afraid of MSN Messenger 7 than I am afraid of the Ultimate Weapon who's in the sand near the amusement park (if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry about it).

Anyway, let's get back to the original topic, which is "Messenger Plus! 1.4 code sharing.. good or bad idea?" .

good, and who is in the sand?>???>?>?>?????

I would say it's a good idea...
I had used Plus! 1.42b before too, and it was a piece of great software...(even now lack of compatibility with new messenger versions)
I myself code in VB, as you know, the relase won't be of benefit for me actually...but for sure it can inspire more people

Edit: Patchou, I'm asking for it again...could you as well release more functions for plugins?

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Originally posted by Patchou
(beleive me, that's entirely possible technically).

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Originally posted by wtbw
[1] Until MSNM starts using the NGSCB etc, anyway, which is many years off, if it ever even happens at all.

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NGSCB stands for Next-Generation Secure Computing Base. More information can be found at this site or with a simple Google search

NGSCB = Palladium

As I said earlier, this code along with the MSN 6 hooking documentation could go very far in the right hands.

bad idea, imo. yes, i believe plus! is the best messenger add-on ever made, i just afraid that some ppl might misuse your code.

i don't mind monopoly, anyway. if i have the best software already then why should i ask for an alternative?

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Originally posted by Mnjul
Edit: Patchou, I'm asking for it again...could you as well release more functions for plugins?

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* Alpha Binary totally agrees with Mnjul

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Originally posted by Alpha Binary
anyway, i don't suggest you pay too much attention to my posts cuz i only code in VB .

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Originally posted by Alpha Binary
* Alpha Binary totally agrees with Mnjul


a messenger-hook dll would be enough.

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Well here's what i think:

A messenger hook-dll is a good idea however it will become out of date and (knowing microsoft) not work when Messenger 7 comes out and i don't think Patchou would have time to keep updating it to work with messenger

Releasing source code to Plus! 1.4 is a good idea, but because it does not work with messenger 6 many people would not be to utilize it because they do not have the coding skills.

Improvng the functionality of the plugins is probably the best bet because people wouldn't have to learn the complexities of hooking messenger and so on and it gives us VB programmers a glimpse of light and Patchou could control the security so the plugin API is not misused.

Anyway thats my 2 Cents

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Originally posted by Patchou
the Ultimate Weapon who's in the sand near the amusement park

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Originally posted by Jutx

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Originally posted by Patchou
the Ultimate Weapon who's in the sand near the amusement park

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* by the way for those that didnt know i think Patchou was talking about Ultima Weapon on Final Fantasy 7. I think

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[geek]Ruby Weapon to be more precise... Kill the claws first oh, and give him some hellish pain to his arse..[/geek]

Anyway, how is this going on? I read all this on my trip and i came back wondering about what is patchou thinking now..

Well, I haven't read all of this thread, but (although knowing my ignorance it's probably already released) I think releasing code would be great. Although I only code in VB, I am learning C/C++, and anyway it would probably be helpful in linking stuff with Messenger, or just for newbies in developing good coding techniques. Glad to see you're considering it. You have my vote.

I wonder when Patchou is FInaly going to release it?

He hasn't decided yet .

I'm still thinking about it and reading your feedback. I'll post on MSN Fanatic about it too. Keept in mind that even when I'll have decided that releasing the code is a good idea, you'll have to wait for me to insert comments in it etc... it will probably take a least a month. I'll keep you all informed about the progress.

take your time patchou. I hope your decission would be the most appropiate for the community and, please, don't use PiratesOfTheCaribbean's account (Fraisie's)

Any thought about releasing it under an open source license?

http://www.opensource.org/licenses/

i don't know C... either, but i think it's a good idea to release it.. unless you have more topics against it.  If people don't want, they don't have to take.

Anyways, what licence will come with it then? will we be free to let it burn down the trees and make bunny rabbits out of it. Or will we have to do certain things?

I think you should use the GPL or BSD license. The GPL will case more code to be given back to the community. BSD will insure Patchou gets credit.

I wonder If MSN is going to block anyways Of Plugins For the MSN Messenger 7..... If thats Possible all they have to do is Hide those Files that They Have For People Editting them... again if thats Possible

Plus! isn't an edit of the files. its an addon. it runs on top of Messenger, and "hooks" into the program. Messenger tried to block Plus! with 6.0, but patchou wourked arountd it....

Yes but What I am Trying to Say is:
What Happens If they Found Out To find A Way to block it For good?    

Well.. it seems that this topic was ment to be about CODE not a discussion about features

I suggest a better plugin system..

I attached an OLD plugin system i have written a time ago in c++.. and i atached also a DOI lirary which will make it very easy for plugins (i call the mostly modules) to work with eachother, even when they havent got their .h files included and objects linked).

I`m workin` on a new version of that module framework right now though.. it`ll be much more improved.. and it will get a more ATL/MFC/WTL look and feel to use (there wont be a .lib to include anymore, but just a .dll where to link to)

I am a Developer as well.  I do most of my programming in VB, but I do a little bit in C/C++.  I often use C code that I find on the net to help me with my VB coding.

I think releasing the 1.42b version of Plus would be a good idea.  I my opinion even non-C programmers could learn from it.

I also do think it is a good idea to try to protect your own work.

Whatever you decide to do is definitely the right thing for you to do, because in the end, this is your code.  You are the one who has spent the many hours, days, weeks, etc. on it.

I believe I could also learn from that code.

Shaggie

P.S. No matter what you decide, I wish to say that I appreciate all that you have done for the messenger community, and programmers in general.

But such a plugin systen would also be great.. it would enable people to make their messenger plugin using already great software .. (just as you use msn messenger with plus!)

[offtopic]

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Originally posted by bach_m
Messenger tried to block Plus! with 6.0, but patchou wourked arountd it....

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• The Messenger team was too lazy to make the old API compatible with 6.x versions given the new layout and controls
  
• They just did it "a bit more difficult" so that newbies' plugins (no offence intended) weren't released again but they left the chance for professional programmers like Patchou to develop software for Messenger. (I'd go for this one )
  
• the stupid programmers (sic) at Microsoft don't know how to protect their own software from advanced hooks and their intent to block Patchou didn't last long.

patchou should release it....... full stop

Although releasing the 1.42b's source would be great, I think giving more functionalities to the plugins API would still be a better option. In the end, any IM's basic functionality is to send and receive messages.  So I believe that Plus! plugins API basic functionalities should include getting and sending messages!

Of course if the Plus! source code is available to public it is always possible to implement the same hooking techniques that are implemented by Plus! but this seems very counterproductive to me. MSN messenger is always evolving and the hooking methods keep evolving with it (and even apart from it)! Whatever is developed on Plus! has to be re-implemented on the plugins resulting in a great loss of time and effort, and even on bad resource usage!

Patchou did a really great job and Plus! is the best, no doubt about it! But people will always want new specific functionalities that sometimes are not so useful to others. To add them to default Plus! installation itself would make it too heavy for unnecessary reasons, and means Patchou is left with the burden of having to implement all the new functionalities by himself.

With plugins, Patchou can still keep control of his work (doesn't even has to distribute the source code) while keeping developers and end-users happy. Every modern development paradigm is saying it: applications should be modular and encourage code-reuse. Plugins are definitely the way to go, they just need that extra basic IM power!

ehh... i don't know any C... but i know some php

If he DOES release his code for msg plus!, it would help my php based bot...

Plus! probably mostly implements hooking for getting and sending messages through msn/windows messenger, it doesn't implement any of the protocol itself, which is probably what you need the most for your bot...
There are some open source msn messenger-clones you can take a look at, that are more likely to suit our needs, namely Gaim and Miranda.
Also you can find some documentation about the protocol here: MSN Messenger Protocol.

yep, Plus doesn't use the messenger protocol directly but the APIs of messenger to send/receive messages and hooking to display menus.

Btw, amsn is also a messenger clone for Linux/Windows and you can get its source code.

I'm for it...if it results in a more fun experience for all MSN Messenger users it's worth it...

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Originally posted by anubis_kree_
I'm for it...if it results in a more fun experience for all MSN Messenger users it's worth it...

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...For code sharing or enhacing plugins' API with the basic Plus! functionalities (or both )?

Both Plugins and in the fact that potentially Plus! could be the first of many MSN Messenger enhancing software...although Patchou can't be topped...

Agree !

Agree to what? The new load of MSN Messenger enhancing software or Patchou can't be topped or both? Sorry how much I sound like you tiojoca...

And I'm going to sound just like you cause my answer is "Both!" as well