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plus 3 design & keyboard - Printable Version

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+----- Thread: plus 3 design & keyboard (/showthread.php?tid=28431)
plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-10-2004 at 09:14 AM

Hi,
I do not find the new design to be somewhat amazing, it simply does not match what I am used to, all these shadows are not intuitive nor used in OS, as well as the UI seems more complicated to me than it was. However, this is change and I can't do anything against it.

Well, what :blah: me a lot, is the lack of keyboard control, what I think should be preserved, especially in programs like this one.

eg. How can I switch between subcategory buttons like "Local settings" "sound config" and "misc"? How can I list presets of personalized status since they are hidden behind the curious button?

I will willingly try to learn new UI, but if it cannot be controled using keyboard, it is bad UI.

        Thanks for understanding,
           have a nice day (A) miloush

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Leif on 07-10-2004 at 10:11 AM

I agree with you all the way! Keyboard control is VERY important. And for some people it's a matter of not being able to use the programme at all if you have to rely on the use of the mouse.

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Millenium_edition on 07-10-2004 at 11:19 AM

never thought of that. I agree too

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by CookieRevised on 07-10-2004 at 11:59 AM

I agree also, but on the other hand let's not forget this isn't a UI but a GUI (graphic user interface)... that means it is based upon graphics....

Also, many things in window can't be controlled also purely with the keyboard without special software...
Also, 90% of all programs written by 3rd parties don't have full keyboard control either. (but that indeed doesn't mean Plus! shouldn't have)

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-10-2004 at 12:35 PM

Most of the things in window can (or could :P) be controlled using keyboard, in fact the only thing I haven't managed to do without mouse is to show/hide window frame in MSN Messenger >6.

But I wouldn't like to argue what can be done with keyboard and what can not, chatting is about text and every need for mouse is inefficient... btw. the guys with wireless mice have to look desperately for theirs mice all the time :D

All of MS software is able to work with only kbd and most of professional 3rd party applications as well. Plus is an extension to MS app so it should match the philosophy of MS apps.

And as you can see all these /commands are here just to avoid mouse! ;)

I think it is quite easy to correct the GUI to accept keyboard input, as we are used to in Plus ver. 2...

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Patchou on 07-10-2004 at 06:37 PM

I always take a lot of care in ensuring that peopel can navigate using their keyboard. To navigate between subsections, just use Alt+1-2-3. See, no need to complain :). Messenger Plus! 3 is as "keyboard complient" as Messenger Plus! 2 was, extra graphics have not change that.

RE: RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-10-2004 at 07:38 PM

I thought there is some crazy combination available :o) but when providing the keyboard control it should be as much intuitive as possible. Why hasn't I came upon this keystroke? Probably because it is not used in any program I have seen yet. Why it cannot be, say Ctrl+Tab? Or why there are not avaible through Tab stop? Tab stopping should be used only in emergency :D and these tricky buttons aren't available...
Yep and probably because Alt keystrokes are normally visible with "_" ;) Do all controls without _ have secret keystroke assigned?

What I would like to ask is why -in the Personalised status window- the preset combobox changed into button. I can't find any reason of it, but in each case, I would be really happy if I could go throw the list using arrows... :$

I am not sure wheter I should write about this keyboard stuff, so let me know...

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Choli on 07-10-2004 at 08:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by uam
Do all controls without _ have secret keystroke assigned?
the only controls that don't have it are the Accept/Cancel/Apply in the preferences. You can use Enter/Esc keys for them ;)
quote:
Originally posted by uam
What I would like to ask is why -in the Personalised status window- the preset combobox changed into button. I can't find any reason of it, but in each case, I would be really happy if I could go throw the list using arrows...
I think it's due to make the look nicer, however I also like more (and think it's more intuitive) to have a drop-down list.)
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
just use Alt+1-2-3.
:O Nice (Y)
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by CookieRevised on 07-10-2004 at 09:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
the only controls that don't have it are the Accept/Cancel/Apply in the preferences. You can use Enter/Esc keys for them
Well, that's normal "Windows beheviour", but what about:

* The link "Click here for a list of additional preferences" in General Options>Misc - How do you select that? (and isn't it better "with additional preferences"? dunno)

* The arrow buttons in Message Helpers>QuickTexts (can they have a tab-stop also?) <= important one I think!

* The icon in Privacy Protection>Boss Protection

* The link "Click here to download new plugins"  in Plugins

* The link in the about window...

But I must say, that's all I could find. You can access everything else with the keyboard only....

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
I think it's due to make the look nicer, however I also like more (and think it's more intuitive) to have a drop-down list.)
I agree :$

quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
just use Alt+1-2-3.
I my case that would be ALT+SHIFT+1-2-3 (and for anyone else with a keyboard where the numbers are accessed by pressing shift).

Numbers on keypad don't work in this case and the normal numbers on the alpha-section are only available when I have caps lock on..... very ackward to type :p (suggestion: ctrl+left/right? and you could make ctrl+up/down to work with the main category also)

PS: I found a small ui-bug while playing with all this though... I'll report immediatly...
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Choli on 07-10-2004 at 09:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
* The link "Click here for a list of additional preferences" in General Options>Misc - How do you select that? (and isn't it better "with additional preferences"? dunno)
* The link "Click here to download new plugins"  in Plugins
they say "click here " not " press Ctrl + ..." :refuck:

j/k

yes, cookie is right; there are some thing that can't be accessed using keyboard only.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I my case that would be ALT+SHIFT+1-2-3 (any for anyone else with a keyboard where the numbers are accessed by pressing shift).
what dodgy keyboard do you have?

in all keyboards i've seen, the numbers are in the upper row of qwertyuiop and they're the main symbol of those keys :-/
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
(suggestion: ctrl+left/right? and you could make ctrl+up/down to work with the main category also
(Y) more intuitive and also --for Ctrl + up/down-- the sections doesn't need to have the focus.
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by CookieRevised on 07-10-2004 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
they say "click here " not " press Ctrl + ..."
hehehe, to be precise, they can have a shortcut (ampersand) though, but you wouldn't see it because the whole link is underlined....

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
what dodgy keyboard do you have?
A normal keyboard like everybody else :P

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
in all keyboards i've seen, the numbers are in the upper row of qwertyuiop and they're the main symbol of those keys
There are two main layouts for keyboards: qwerty and azerty (keyboard codetable)... but often the thing that people forget is that there are many subcategories... for instance, In Belgium/Netherland (only countries I'm 100% sure of, but there are many many more) those numbers are NOT the main keys (language codetable)....

(ps: ask on IRC what the key is above the TAB key... You'll get many different answers, and they all use a standard normal keyboard ;))
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Choli on 07-10-2004 at 10:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
hehehe, to be precise, they can have a shortcut (ampersand) though, but you wouldn't see it because the whole link is underlined....
hahaha, the user would have to guess what's the underlined letter :lol: it'd be a great easter egg :P


Well, in fact, i agree that plus can be controlled with the keyboard, but those "extreme" things are a bit picky imo. How many times would someone have to click (well, not click, but "use") those links/buttons/ etc... that doesn't have a shortcut? And let's remember, that plus is running inside Windows, an OS with GUI. Doing things with the keyboard is faster, yes, but a correct use of both keyboard and mouse is the fastest ;)

quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
There are two main layouts for keyboards: qwerty and azerty (keyboard codetable)...
azerty?? I only kwen qwerty and Dvorak
* Choli :google:s azerty
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
In Belgium/Netherland (only countries I'm 100% sure of, but there are many many more) those numbers are NOT the main keys (language codetable)....
ok ok, i belive you :P but it seems very weird to me ;)
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
ask on IRC what the key is above the TAB key...
yes, there was a thread about that some time ago... but that key is a bit "special". I meant the "standar" keys for letters (A..Z) and numbers (1..9, 0) not the rest (ºª\<>?'¡¿.,:;-_{}[]^+* etc...)
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-10-2004 at 10:51 PM

Hi guys,
I wanted to make such list too, but you were faster :p

I agree Alt+1,2,3 is not lucky because lot of national keyboards/mappings do not interpret these keys as being numbers.

But you started, so just finish it ;):

* It is not visible whether the left panel in Preferences has the focus or not, which is a little bit confusing. PS "Personalize my status" checkbox has the same problem.

* The Tab order of Apply -> Cancel -> OK -> Reset -> Save seems to be for people writing from right to left, doesn't it? :)

* After the left panel, individual preferences should have the focus, not the sequence above.

* In Quick Icons subsection, "Display the panel..." and "Instant display..." are not accessible using ALT, resp. there is no _.
   "Text decoration" in Text Recall, "Number of chars..." and "Report Delay" in Configuration as well. So are all items in Status Presets and much more in whole preferences dialog, some in personalised status and task scheduler; however, I don't think this is essential, since it can all be done by TAB.

* The TabControls, eg. in POP3 E-mail does not accept Ctrl+Tab as they do in Win32 apps.

* This thing I am not sure if it could be done by developer and I am afraid it couldn't, but the Plus icon in chat window is not accesible using Tab; but there could be - maybe there already is :p - a key shortcut for it.
* Also the menu under this Plus icon has no hotkeys defined.

I think it's all for the moment ;)

...but believe me, I really love Plus 8-| (y)

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Choli on 07-10-2004 at 10:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by uam
The TabControls, eg. in POP3 E-mail does not accept Ctrl+Tab as they do in Win32 apps.
as other Tab controls in Windows, the one of plus can be controlled pressing TAB until you set the focus to the tabs and the using letf and right arrows.
quote:
Originally posted by uam
This thing I am not sure if it could be done by developer and I am afraid it couldn't, but the Plus icon in chat window is not accesible using Tab; but there could be - maybe there already is  - a key shortcut for it.
the features of that menu can be accessed from the plus menu of the chat windows. You can press Alt + P and access it.
quote:
Originally posted by uam
Also the menu under this Plus icon has no hotkeys defined.
no need of them, and the same in other similar menus ;)

btw, they are in the spanish-spain version, i think; we put there just for fun :P
quote:
Originally posted by uam
but believe me, I really love Plus
as all of us :banana:


PD: yes, the tab order is a bit dodgy sometimes.
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by CookieRevised on 07-10-2004 at 11:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by uam
"Text decoration" in Text Recall, "Number of chars..." and "Report Delay" in Configuration as well. So are all items in Status Presets and much more in whole preferences dialog, some in personalised status and task scheduler; however, I don't think this is essential, since it can all be done by TAB.
Yeah, every textbox is accessable by tab-stopping, so I didn't "report" it. Patchou could make it that all those controls can handle ampersands though (well most of them can already btw, but they aren't "active" and wont focus the texbox that goes with them, except in a few places where it actually works (eg: the textfind dialog in a conversation))

But indeed, also take in account that Plus! is indeed a GUI, like Choli said, and putting an ampersand on every possible control would make it a living hell for the translators and most translations wont be 100% correct with all the ampersand-collisions (heck, even now there are problems sometimes to find a "free" ampersand)

quote:
Originally posted by uam
* Also the menu under this Plus icon has no hotkeys defined.
Oh yeah, forgot about that one... the same goes for the special plus menu in the contactlist (in english, and other languages).... (although some languages do have them though ;))
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
no need of them, and the same in other similar menus
True, you can just press the first letter of the menu, but many people don't know that, and also, you can have the same letter in several items, putting ampersands there doesn't harm, infact they help IMHO
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-10-2004 at 11:28 PM

I found that Tab controls can be switched using arrows, but the Ctrl+(Shift+)Tab is just the case when it significantly speeds up the control of a window, as well as for example tricky F6 ;)

I also agree there is no need for _ on each of plenty controls, if they can be accessed using TAB. But in small and easy windows, like personalised status, it simplifies user tasks.

btw. is there any /command for preferences or personalised status window?

oh yes and one imporant question, but maybe a little bit off-topic
can the AutoComplete feature be done for command list?

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Vantage on 07-11-2004 at 12:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by uam
Hi,
I do not find the new design to be somewhat amazing, it simply does not match what I am used to, all these shadows are not intuitive nor used in OS, as well as the UI seems more complicated to me than it was. However, this is change and I can't do anything against it.

Well, what :blah: me a lot, is the lack of keyboard control, what I think should be preserved, especially in programs like this one.

eg. How can I switch between subcategory buttons like "Local settings" "sound config" and "misc"? How can I list presets of personalized status since they are hidden behind the curious button?

I will willingly try to learn new UI, but if it cannot be controled using keyboard, it is bad UI.

        Thanks for understanding,
           have a nice day (A) miloush


Dude, i think ur exepecting too much out of this program,
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by matty on 07-11-2004 at 03:18 AM

Well since we have Alt+1 or 2 or 3 etc what about Keys to jump to Different Sections (the images on the left)

RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Guido on 07-11-2004 at 04:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
Well since we have Alt+1 or 2 or 3 etc what about Keys to jump to Different Sections (the images on the left)
press tab till you focus on the column of buttons and then just press the UP and DOWN keys. Ctrl+tab would be better though :-/

Many things were done in Plus 3 to make it more intuitive, such as putting the OK, CANCEL, APPLY buttons in the way Windows uses it and not in the usual yes/no order (I had to fight with Patch for that :P) and other stuff. More graphics doesn't necessarily mean less usability.

Thanks for the comments (Y)
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by matty on 07-11-2004 at 05:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Guido
quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
Well since we have Alt+1 or 2 or 3 etc what about Keys to jump to Different Sections (the images on the left)
press tab till you focus on the column of buttons and then just press the UP and DOWN keys. Ctrl+tab would be better though :-/

I am a Beta tester and didn't even know that. lol but I know this is asking a lot but if one of this images along the side gets the focus via tab then the colour should be something else to inform the user because its really hard to see which has the focus.
RE: RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Leif on 07-11-2004 at 06:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Choli
the only controls that don't have it are the Accept/Cancel/Apply in the preferences. You can use Enter/Esc keys for them ;)
Accept (? --> OK) is Enter
Cancel is Esc
But what about Apply? Normal Windows behaviour for Apply is an ampersand in it!
And all other instances of OK and Cancel have ampersands. Very strange, indeed! NOT normal Windows behaviour.
RE: RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Guido on 07-11-2004 at 09:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
quote:
Originally posted by Guido
quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
Well since we have Alt+1 or 2 or 3 etc what about Keys to jump to Different Sections (the images on the left)
press tab till you focus on the column of buttons and then just press the UP and DOWN keys. Ctrl+tab would be better though :-/

I am a Beta tester and didn't even know that. lol but I know this is asking a lot but if one of this images along the side gets the focus via tab then the colour should be something else to inform the user because its really hard to see which has the focus.
Err actually, I'm the designer and just found that up/down thing out after you people asked :P. I just knew Patchou would have added a way, but didn't know which it was. I thought ctrl+tab worked. :P

quote:
Very strange, indeed! NOT normal Windows behaviour.
Not that it's so dramatic :rolleyes:
I remember reminding patchou to add &s there :dodgy:   Anyway, you CAN access them with TAB and you can see the focus there :)

(and he said accept because in spanish it's aceptar, so he probably confused it for a second :P -- happens)
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Choli on 07-11-2004 at 12:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:

Originally posted by Choli
no need of them, and the same in other similar menus


True, you can just press the first letter of the menu, but many people don't know that, and also, you can have the same letter in several items, putting ampersands there doesn't harm, infact they help IMHO
in fact, what i meant wast that because you can't pop-up those menus * with the keyboard, there's no need to put &s there, because you'll pop the menu with the mouse and i don't think you'll select the option with the keyboard (just in case, we put &s there)

* -> the enhanced plus icon menu, for example...
quote:
Originally posted by uam
btw. is there any /command for preferences or personalised status window?
/config and /persostat
more info: http://www.msgplus.net/help_cmdtag.php
quote:
Originally posted by uam
oh yes and one imporant question, but maybe a little bit off-topic
can the AutoComplete feature be done for command list?
it'll be done, don't worry.
quote:
Originally posted by Matty.
I am a Beta tester and didn't even know that.
hahaha, the same for me :P
quote:
Originally posted by Leif
But what about Apply?
well, in fact you don't need a shortcut for apply, because you can click OK (ie: press Enter). (yes, i know, it closes the window; but after all, it applies the settings :refuck:)
quote:
Originally posted by Leif
And all other instances of OK and Cancel have ampersands. Very strange, indeed! NOT normal Windows behaviour.
IMO, those buttons don't have &s because it'd be very dificult for us, translators, to be sure that those &s don't conflict with all the ampersands in all the panels of the preferences.
quote:
Originally posted by Guido
and he said accept because in spanish it's aceptar, so he probably confused it for a second  -- happens)
yes, sorry; i was thinking in spanish :P
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by Patchou on 07-17-2004 at 04:33 AM

quote:
IMO, those buttons don't have &s because it'd be very dificult for us, translators, to be sure that those &s don't conflict with all the ampersands in all the panels of the preferences.
That's the precise reason indeed :)
RE: plus 3 design & keyboard by uam on 07-21-2004 at 12:34 AM

I've noticed one keyboard stuff more at the moment: when dragging any dockable window (or toolbar or whatever else), it is possible to use Ctrl key (in standard MS GUI) to temporarily disable docking.

How can be MSN window moved out of the screen when docking is enabled?