Devilin and the uninstall page - Printable Version
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Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-01-2004 at 12:30 AM
Updated as suggested, everybody happy
http://chooseknowledge.com/How-to-uninstall-Messenger-Plus.htm
I'll add the complaints links later, and read any replies in the morning, time for bed night all 
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-01-2004 at 12:56 AM
quote:
I belief The facts about Messenger Plus! document, represents a distorted view of the facts, in many respects, and on many levels
quote:I'm not. There is no distortion of anything in this page. Uninstalling a software from the Add/Remove panel is not unusual at all and the verification code is just part of the uninstaller, evern if you can't read english you'll understand what this box is asking you to do and the fact is that despite the many sponsor-related complains I got this year, I don't remember any single one complaining about that part. I just hope you're not trying too hard to prove how bad my intentions really are and that you'll stick to the facts. Thank you.
Updated as suggested, everybody happy
Also, you should know that "anti-spy" programs do not try to unisntall the sponsor, they justdelete as many files and reg keys as they can. I never saw any case where a program like adaware would attempt to run an exe from another program (for ovbious security reasons) so the verification window doesn't prevent any of those softwre to do their job.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-01-2004 at 07:25 AM
Thanks for your reply, Patchou
Just a couple of points,
I have no interests in making any personal attacks upon you, apart from testing your software, I won't now or in the future use it, or any other chat program, and up to a couple of days ago I've never heard of you or your program, I commented that I believe your document, facts about messenger plus is a distorted view of the facts, and I pointed out one example, I could have easily run through the entire document, pointing out what I consider distortions, I didn't, even though there's blatant and obvious propaganda style comments made throughout, its hardly an unbiased or totally accurate and independent statement in any sense of the word, its pro good and righteous message plus all the way, with nasty evil people trying to discredit it, hardly an unbiased look at both points of view, isn't it ?, honestly ?, at this point your probably tempted to take a confrontational view and ask me to point out every distortion, trust me this wouldn't be a good idea
Uninstall software, by pure definition, deleting files and registry entries, isn't it?
Using a uninstall exe, Although recommended it isn't necessary many anti Spyware programs, have uninstall many programs, by simply deleting files, in the same manner a uninstall exe would,
And suggesting that, a uninstall box, with entry code isn't unusual, please, I've personally never encountered it before, I've uninstalled thousands of programs, although there may be a few programs out there that use this method, its not common, its highly unusual, and to suggest otherwise, wouldn't be a wise decision,
The unusual verification box,? Would this be a protected file? Are there any protected files in the message plus program or sponsored program preventing anti Spyware programs from uninstalling it ?, I can check
Just the facts, and nothing but the facts because I have no personal interests, I'm totally independent, of course, this is a bias statement, I run a anti Spyware site, a more accurate statement would be, I try to remain independent and unbiased
Devilin
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-01-2004 at 07:47 AM
Hi Devilin,
I agree that the tone of the page is maybea litle pushed sometimes, but you would understand better if you had seen someof the comments I've had in the past year. You can have your opinion, I respect that and as you can see, we're having a discussion here. However, this is not often the case and that's also why I created this page. Not because sites like yours but because others .
I would just like to add a note about uninstalling. It is true that ninstallign is always deletingfielsand reg keys, however, any "advanced" program will encounter problems if you try to delete some stuff manually (I'm thinking of Office for example). I would see no problem whatsoever if Adaware (to name one) did its job properly and removed everything. However, I do see a problem if it removes half of the files, leaves the toolbar and prevents the userfrom removingit the normal way. The problem is that they don't care as in the end end, it's always the fault of the evil-adware/spyware program and never theirs. The boxthat asks for a code is unusual, however, it doesn't prevent anyone from removingthe software (again, I must insist, nobody ever complained because if they had, I would have asked for this box to be removed).
I just hope you understand my position at least partially. In the end, you have to admit that uninstalling my software and its sponsor is extremely easy, tens of thousands of people do it every day, without breaking a sweat. You have to realise that it's pretty unusualtoo to post an article sayign how to unisntall a software when it's in Add/Remove Programs 
.
Patchou
PS: as far as I know, no antivirus/antispyware detects Plus! as a trojan (why would they?). Some detects the installer of C2Media though, maybe you should rephrase this sentenceof your article.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by user27089 on 12-01-2004 at 08:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
PS: as far as I know, no antivirus/antispyware detects Plus! as a trojan (why would they?). Some detects the installer of C2Media though, maybe you should rephrase this sentenceof your article.
I'm sorry Patchou, but AVG Antivirus detects it as a trojan, but I'm not sure if it still does..
quote:Propoganda, Patchou is purely pointing out the facts that are daily brought up on these forum, for people who misconcieve things, he is pointing out the truth and trying to stop rumours about messenger plus! that started about a month back....
Originally posted by site
If you'd like to read some propaganda about the author of messenger plus mr Patchou and the program itself, written by Patchou, titled "get the facts" click the link below
quote:
Originally posted by site
Under the title " Rumor once installed, the sponsor program is extremely hard to remove " under the title facts it then proceeds to explain how easy it is to uninstall, and blames anti-Spyware programs for any problems that occur, and Patchou the programs author suggests you should make complaints to the anti Spyware programs, about only partly installing the messenger plus program, Patchou neglects to mention, the unusual security code box, in the uninstall procedure, designed to ensure only humans and not other programs uninstall messenger plus making it virtually impossible for any anti Spyware program to successful remove messenger plus, and if this unusual security measure was removed, the better anti Spyware programs would probably easily remove messenger plus,
The Sponsor Program is easy to uninstall, I even have videos of me installing it and uninstalling it, then showing that everything is gone.. Using adware/spyware removal programs (as patchou said) will corrupt the files, therefore making removal difficult. The Verification code box is purely procedure for this certain sponsor program as far as I know. Adware/spyware removal programs never do the job, and it wouldn't remove c2media at all.. Its the pure arrogance of the users that install the sponsor and try and use adware/spyware removal programs to get rid of it.. It WILL completely mess up the files, therefore making it uninstallable, lots of programs use the security box for uninstallation, so I don't know what you're on about to be honest.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by ddunk on 12-01-2004 at 08:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by traxor
Propoganda, Patchou is purely pointing out the facts that are daily brought up on these forum, for people who misconcieve things, he is pointing out the truth and trying to stop rumours about messenger plus! that started about a month back....
Propaganda is the correct word there. Although it may have a negative connotation, the basic definition is to spread one's ideas for a cause.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-01-2004 at 06:44 PM
Thanks for your replies everybody
The page itself is open to correction, revision etc. and you've all been extremely helpful, I'll updated it later tonight, I have some stuff to do
Ddunk,, Thank's
traxor quote:I'm sorry Patchou, but AVG Antivirus detects it as a trojan, but I'm not sure if it still does..
Yes it does, I haven't checked it against other anti virus programs, but the chances are, red flags will be raised, as a lot of anti virus software, uses variations upon the same engine
traxor quote:lots of programs use the security box for uninstallation, so I don't know what you're on about to be honest.
Could you please name lots? Specifically,
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
Hi Devilin,
I agree that the tone of the page is maybea litle pushed sometimes, but you would understand better if you had seen someof the comments I've had in the past year. You can have your opinion, I respect that and as you can see, we're having a discussion here. However, this is not often the case and that's also why I created this page. Not because sites like yours but because others
I would just like to add a note about uninstalling. It is true that ninstallign is always deletingfielsand reg keys, however, any "advanced" program will encounter problems if you try to delete some stuff manually (I'm thinking of Office for example). I would see no problem whatsoever if Adaware (to name one) did its job properly and removed everything. However, I do see a problem if it removes half of the files, leaves the toolbar and prevents the userfrom removingit the normal way. The problem is that they don't care as in the end end, it's always the fault of the evil-adware/spyware program and never theirs. The boxthat asks for a code is unusual, however, it doesn't prevent anyone from removingthe software (again, I must insist, nobody ever complained because if they had, I would have asked for this box to be removed).
I just hope you understand my position at least partially. In the end, you have to admit that uninstalling my software and its sponsor is extremely easy, tens of thousands of people do it every day, without breaking a sweat. You have to realise that it's pretty unusualtoo to post an article sayign how to unisntall a software when it's in Add/Remove Programs
Patchou
PS: as far as I know, no antivirus/antispyware detects Plus! as a trojan (why would they?). Some detects the installer of C2Media though, maybe you should rephrase this sentenceof your article.
Hi Patchou
Yes, I can see this from your point of view, and I can appreciate how frustrating this must be, especially over a period of time, and I can appreciate how you have become, slightly dogmatically, in your approach, due to the circumstances,
But there is another point of view, the mother whose child has downloaded messenger plus onto their computer without the mother realizing it, Half deleted it with a weekly anti Spyware, scan, and then the nightmare begins, I've tested the program itself in a variety of ways, letting different anti Spyware programs take bites out it, in one scenario I ended up formatting, because of the instability problems, understandably this would make some people angry and frustrate, with you as a obvious target, I hope you also understand this position,
I'll need to go now, I'll return and see about doing some updates
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by user27089 on 12-01-2004 at 07:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I've tested the program itself in a variety of ways, letting different anti Spyware programs take bites out it, in one scenario I ended up formatting, because of the instability problems,
Its your own fault for doing this, it is clearly instructed not to use spyware removal programs, therefore, you put your computer at risk, not patchou's fault..... It won't be stable, nothing will if ad-aware programs take registries and files from it..
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-01-2004 at 08:39 PM
quote:Wrong. AVG detects the setup of the sponsor program when Messenger Plus! extracts it during setup (and I just installed the latest version of AVG Free just to be sure). Again, there's absolutely no reason for any antivirus or antispyware to detect my software as being dangerous as it is not. In fact, the major problem is that on some sites (like on yours apparently), the instructions focus on "you got Messenger Plus! ? here is howto get rid of it" instead of starting with an explanation message, stating that Plus! comes with an optional adware program and that you may have installed it. Sites like yours make Messenger Plus! look like a virus and that's what creates the wrong impression and forced be to create the facts page a couple of days ago (I have nothing against the fact that youshow how to remove my sponsor program, but itwould be faire if you gave a little more information about the product)
AVG Antivirus detects it as a trojan, but I'm not sure if it still does
And once again, you cannot, under any circumstances and in all logic, hold me responsible for things your various anti-spyware programs have done to your computer.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-01-2004 at 09:16 PM
quote:program-wise, no I can't, because I don't installed that much freeware to begin with, but I have come across them regulary. Also, the security box is used on tons of websites, including forums (like mess.be), sites to register passwords (like msn, passport, ebay, ...), etc... etc...
Originally posted by Devilin
Could you please name lots? Specifically,
In other words, it is not because you didn't come across such boxes that it is a rare/unusual method. Facts are that it is a very commonly known/reconized method (also the reason why nobody ever complained about it)....
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-01-2004 at 11:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by traxor
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I've tested the program itself in a variety of ways, letting different anti Spyware programs take bites out it, in one scenario I ended up formatting, because of the instability problems,
Its your own fault for doing this, it is clearly instructed not to use spyware removal programs, therefore, you put your computer at risk, not patchou's fault..... It won't be stable, nothing will if ad-aware programs take registries and files from it..
Of course its my own fault, it was a deliberate exercise in testing various scenarios, I deliberately tried for the worst case scenario, and succeeded, my computer became so unstable I needed to format it
My point was, what if this wasn't somebody's fault, it just happened through circumstances beyond their control,
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:program-wise, no I can't, because I don't installed that much freeware to begin with, but I have come across them regulary. Also, the security box is used on tons of websites, including forums (like mess.be), sites to register passwords (like msn, passport, ebay, ...), etc... etc...
Originally posted by Devilin
Could you please name lots? Specifically,
In other words, it is not because you didn't come across such boxes that it is a rare/unusual method. Facts are that it is a very commonly known/reconized method (also the reason why nobody ever complained about it)....
Yes there used on forums , to prevent bot's from registry, but uninstalling programs? No this is not common practice, even in freeware programs, and I've tested lots, this is highly unusual, unless you can point out specific programs that use this method of uninstalling, my original statement stands, and will not be swayed by I'm sure lots do, without proof to back this up, Soz CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
Wrong. AVG detects the setup of the sponsor program when Messenger Plus! extracts it during setup (and I just installed the latest version of AVG Free just to be sure). Again, there's absolutely no reason for any antivirus or antispyware to detect my software as being dangerous as it is not. In fact, the major problem is that on some sites (like on yours apparently), the instructions focus on "you got Messenger Plus! ? here is howto get rid of it" instead of starting with an explanation message, stating that Plus! comes with an optional adware program and that you may have installed it. Sites like yours make Messenger Plus! look like a virus and that's what creates the wrong impression and forced be to create the facts page a couple of days ago (I have nothing against the fact that youshow how to remove my sponsor program, but itwould be faire if you gave a little more information about the product)
And once again, you cannot, under any circumstances and in all logic, hold me responsible for things your various anti-spyware programs have done to your computer.
Patchou, I assume your differentiating between your program and the sponsor program, although there combined unless somebody clicks no ?, this would lead to a very long and drawn out exploration, which I'm sure somebody just wishing to uninstall messenger plus, wouldn't wish to read, although your correct, about the statement itself I shall amend it, the thing about uninstalling messenger plus, and its sponsor program, I would consider a good idea, because of the dangers of conflicts, with anti Spyware programs,
Say for example, somebody install messenger plus, six months later they install anti Spyware software, would you expect them to remember every line of text in the agreement six months later?, messenger plus is potentially a dangerous program when mixed with anti Spyware programs, unless you manage to resolve this with anti Spyware writers, I consider uninstalling messenger plus the best advice, unless you have a convincing argument against this advice
I don't hold you responsible for anything, and there not my anti Spyware programs, I didn't write them honest
And please don't hold me responsible for anything, I'm a product of social conditioning, and I therefore not responsible for my own actions
If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet
? is this acceptable? Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Chrono on 12-02-2004 at 03:37 AM
Please Devilin, do NOT post more than one message in a row.
Double posting is against the forums rules, so posting 4 times in a row is too much 
thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet
? is this acceptable? Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur
why dont you mention that installing the sponsor program is optional, and if they dont install it, they wont have any kind of problem with these anti-adware programs?
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-02-2004 at 06:11 AM
Messenger Plus! andits sponsorare not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVGdetects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.
If someoneinstalls an anti-adware program 6 month after installing Plus! and its sponsor, I assume that the sponsor really didn't bother him/her at all (which is the case for a lot of people until when one of their friend tell them that a software like Messenger Plus! is dangerous to their computer). Messenger Plus! is not dangerous in any way and neither is its sponsor. They are advertisements, not viruses and they are not more dangerous than theads you're forced to watch on TV every 15 minutes.
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-02-2004 at 07:31 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chrono
Please Devilin, do NOT post more than one message in a row.
Double posting is against the forums rules, so posting 4 times in a row is too much
? is this acceptable? Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur
why dont you mention that installing the sponsor program is optional, and if they dont install it, they wont have any kind of problem with these anti-adware programs?
No quad posting
, soz ChronoThe reason I didn't mention it, was purely based upon assumption, I assumed that anybody visiting a how to uninstall page was having problems, therefore the sponsor program was installed, so sticking in some text saying, you wouldn't have had these problems if blar blar blar, wouldn't be helpful, and could just aggravate an already enraged person, i.e. if you see somebody trip over something while out walking, you wouldn't run up to them and say, you didn't want to do that, you should have looked where you were going, its all your fault, you'd just help them up, assuming they could work out for themselves they should have looked where they were going, because to do otherwise would be insulting, and I wouldn't wish to insult my visitors, I wouldn't wish to insult anybody for any reason
Patchou
quote:I'm not sure this is an entirely accurate statement Patchou, I'm sure the message plus program, and sponsor program were combined in the same zip file, and the installation of the programs themselves, was also combined in the same installation program,
Messenger Plus! andits sponsorare not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVGdetects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.
I hope I didn't give the impression that I considered either message plus or its sponsor program as dangerous, because there not
I was just pointing out, they become dangerous when security software is involved, it is a problem, and until this problem his address, my advice to anybody would be, don't use message plus/sponsor program,
Patchou I'm sure you realize these problems will affect people, and blaming , either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it, leaving you and your uses in an awkward position, until you find the solution
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-02-2004 at 07:45 AM
quote:Wrong assumption... Chrono meant in the first place that you should mention it is optional, that's the important bit.
Originally posted by Devilin
The reason I didn't mention it, was purely based upon assumption, I assumed that anybody visiting a how to uninstall page was having problems, therefore the sponsor program was installed, so sticking in some text saying, you wouldn't have had these problems if blar blar blar, wouldn't be helpful, and could just aggravate an already enraged person
If you don't which to add "if you didnt install it, blahblah" then fine. This indeed can be seen as putting more oil on the fire. But again stick to the facts: mentionning that the sponsor is optional is nothing more then a fact and will not make angry persons more angry and will certainly not insult your visitors...
quote:Again a wrong assumption of your part. If you don't believe it, did you even tried it yourself to find out? Patchou knows about what he's talking about, don't you think...
Originally posted by Devilin
quote:I'm not sure this is an entirely accurate statement Patchou
Originally posted by Patchou
Messenger Plus! and its sponsor are not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVG detects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.
quote:If you actually research and find out yourself, you will see that the setup of Messenger Plus! isn't detected by AVG. It is only when you've installed Messenger Plus! (and thus everything is "extracted") that AVG will give a warning about one of the sponsor files. (and if I may add: a warning which only the free scanner AVG gives. All other virusscanners do not detect it! Why? Because the warning from AVG is a false warning and is not correct; there is no trojan in the sponsor program)
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm sure the message plus program, and sponsor program were combined in the same zip file, and the installation of the programs themselves, was also combined in the same installation program
quote:Not realy, but some people might think so. But the main thing is that you post (wrong) assumptions instead of facts.
Originally posted by Devilin
I hope I didn't give the impression that I considered either message plus or its sponsor program as dangerous
quote:The biggest problems are false assumptions and wrong information spread on the internet. If everybody would stick to facts there wouldn't be such big problems.
Originally posted by Devilin
Patchou I'm sure you realize these problems will affect people, and blaming, either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it, leaving you and your uses in an awkward position, until you find the solution
quote:At least fix your punctuation
If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet
it will make things much more clear for people:"If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off. You may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider messenger plus as a potential virus, trojan, spyware or addware. Messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur."
Also this is of no use and doesn't make any sense:
quote:why should people disconnect? There is no internet activity at all when you uninstall Plus! or it's sponsor. This line is of no use what-so-ever and is confusing and wrong information.
Disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet
quote:In PM I've asked to add: "1. re-Install Messenger Plus / msgplus with the sponsor program"
1. re-Install Messenger Plus / msgplus / click yes to everything
Why did you make it "click yes to everything"? This may seem the same to you but it isn't. Agreeing to the sponsor isn't done by clicking "yes"; Yes to what? Agreeing with the sponsor or don't agreeing to the sponsor? You see, this is not the same. So can you change that to "with the sponsor program".
quote:This doesn't make sense and is also placed in a confussing way. You post the explaination of each image above the image and this line is beneath the last image. So do they need to restart their computer again? No... Furthermore, like said before, your connection to the internet has nothing to do with the (un)installing of Messenger Plus!, nor with the sponsor, nor with disabling scanning software. In short that line is not needed and very confusing.
All Done, restart your computer, and turn on all scanning software before connecting to the Internet
If you whish to create an uninstall guide, stick to the facts and don't twist things around or don't make assumptions which are incorrect.
quote:Again, at least fix your punctuation (like what's up with all the comma's?) and gramar:
Under the title " Rumor once installed, the sponsor program is extremely hard to remove " under the title facts it then proceeds to explain how easy it is to uninstall, and blames anti-Spyware programs for any problems that occur, and Patchou the programs author suggests you should make complaints to the anti Spyware programs, about only partly installing the messenger plus program, Patchou neglects to mention, the unusual security code box, in the uninstall procedure, designed to ensure only humans and not other programs uninstall messenger plus making it virtually impossible for any anti Spyware program to successful remove messenger plus, and if this unusual security measure was removed, the better anti Spyware programs would probably easily remove messenger plus,
"Under the title "Rumor once installed, the sponsor program is extremely hard to remove" it proceeds to explain how easy it is to uninstall, and blames anti-spyware programs for any problems that occur. And Patchou, the programs author, suggests you should make complaints to the anti-spyware programs about only partly uninstalling the messenger plus sponsor. Patchou neglects to mention the unusual security code box in the uninstall procedure, designed to ensure only humans and not other programs uninstall messenger plus's sponsor. Making it virtually impossible for any anti-spyware program to successful remove messenger plus' sponsor. And if this unusual security measure was removed, the better anti-spyware programs would probably easily remove messenger plus' sponsor."
Also note that not one single anti-spyware program attempts to remove Messenger Plus!. Even if you insist in putting this personal opinion about Patchou's "propoganda" on your page, at least get the facts strait. Facts which even the anti-spyware programs and their makers don't question.
If you wish to express your concearns and believes about Patchou's "propganda", at least get the unquestionable facts strait.
And another note why this section of your page isn't quite valid:
Another one of those facts is that it is _not_ the security box that is limiting the anti-spyware programs to succesfully remove the sponsor. Even if it was not there, the anti-spyware program will still not be able to uninstall the sponsor for the sole reason that those anti-spyware programs do not execute external programs and will never do for obvious security reasons. To remove the sponsor, a program _needs_ to execute the uninstall procedure as that is the only way to delete the random named files that may be created by the sponsor.
We are not here to censor your page, or to alter your views. You have every right to post your own opinions, like everybody else. The only thing we wish is that things put on pages like yours is accurate and isn't based upon assumptions which, after you properly research them, turn out to be wrong.
You came here to ask if the page is good. We didn't flame and cursed you, but only pointed out the mistakes you've made. Think about it in another way: If your page was valid and totaly correct, we can use it to link to it if users have problems, which would also benefit you as you have google ads on your page. But we wont use it if it contains false assumptions and suggestive information.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-02-2004 at 08:45 AM
Cookie summed up everything very properly so I won't add anything except for:
quote:true, however it still doesn't change the fact that as a developer, there's stricly nothing I can do to prevent another software from deleting the files from my sponsor package. The only thing I could do would be to detect Adaware (for example) and kill it while installing Plus!, which of course, would be totally unapropriate
blaming , either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it
. Appart from that, anythignelse is upto the anti-spyware companies. Theyarethe one who are creating the mess, they are the only ones who can solve the situation but as I said in my facts page, it's easy for them not to do a thing as almost everybody automatically points a finger to the adware itself. I never saw anybody complaining about Adaware causing problems on their system. This kind of software could almost delete the entire content of your Program Files directory and it would still be the fault of some adware. People got to open up their eyes a little. After all, while they're at it, why don't they just format your HD directly to get rid of the adware? you said ityourself, you had to reformat your system after the damage some of these tools made on your system.btw, thank you for taking the time to have a nice and intelligent discussion, it is surely refreshing
.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Sam Spade on 12-02-2004 at 10:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you actually research and find out yourself, you will see that the setup of Messenger Plus! isn't detected by AVG. It is only when you've installed Messenger Plus! (and thus everything is "extracted") that AVG will give a warning about one of the sponsor files. (and if I may add: a warning which only the free scanner AVG gives. All other virusscanners do not detect it! Why? Because the warning from AVG is a false warning and is not correct; there is no trojan in the sponsor program)
Vet Antivirus, also known as Etrust by Computer Associates detected the Sponsor Program as a trojan on my system
http://www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=14461
I have also seen reports that Trend Micro does the same.
http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/defa...me=TROJ_SWIZZOR.AZ
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
why should people disconnect? There is no internet activity at all when you uninstall Plus! or it's sponsor. This line is of no use what-so-ever and is confusing and wrong information.
I have done some further testing.
Twice I have installed Messenger Plus! and the Sponsor Program and rebooted.
Twice I have uninstalled Messenger Plus! and the Sponsor Program after rebooting.
Twice, after running uninstall, with MSN Messenger shut down during the entire process, my firewall has warned me that:
'Messenger Plus!' from your computer wants to connect to 64.62.180.101, port 80
A whois check of 64.62.180.101 reveals...
Hurricane Electric HURRICANE-4 (NET-64-62-128-0-1)
64.62.128.0 - 64.62.255.255
C2 Media Ltd HURRICANE-CE1076-491 (NET-64-62-180-96-1)
64.62.180.96 - 64.62.180.127
What is your explanation for this?
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-02-2004 at 06:53 PM
Probably that C2Media is trying to contact its own server to get the necessary files to do an uninstallation (that's only a guess but that's the most logical explanation). If you block a software (any software) from doing what it's supposed to do, then you can't complain if the result is not what you expected .
As for anti-viruses that detect the sponsor's setup as a trojan, they are just crappy programs in hope to justify their existence. It looks good to say "I detect more viruses than the other". This is pure and unjustified diffamation which is another proof everybody should use a professional anti-virus solution.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by WDZ on 12-02-2004 at 07:10 PM
quote:Remember that C2 Media hosts msgplus.net.
Originally posted by Sam Spade
What is your explanation for this?
64.62.180.101 looks like the msgplus update server.
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-02-2004 at 08:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
We are not here to censor your page, or to alter your views. You have every right to post your own opinions, like everybody else. The only thing we wish is that things put on pages like yours is accurate and isn't based upon assumptions which, after you properly research them, turn out to be wrong.
You came here to ask if the page is good. We didn't flame and cursed you, but only pointed out the mistakes you've made. Think about it in another way: If your page was valid and totaly correct, we can use it to link to it if users have problems, which would also benefit you as you have google ads on your page. But we wont use it if it contains false assumptions and suggestive information.
Quite a reply CookieRevised, if you'd like me to reply to every comment made, I'll be happy to, although it might become quite lengthy
I'll try to reply to two of the more pertinent points, CookieRevised, and thanks for the spell grammar check, I'll certainly use it
I'm dyslexic
thus the bad grammar and spellingquote:my original attempt at posting on this forum resulted in the topic being closed by Patchou, although the majority of responses were pleasant, one individual, did flame me, and suggested without provocation that I was quote "dimwitted"
We didn't flame and cursed you
So to be purely factual and honest, instead of saying "For more information and assistance, on messenger plus, visits the messenger plus forum "
I should say, message plus forum, where your likely to receive have a hostile and confrontational reception,
I chose, not to print the entire facts, are you suggesting I should, without compromise ?
This is all about compromise CookieRevised
The Interpretation of facts, can be a tricky business, nothing is set in stone, its all open for interpretation, which is why I'm here, there's two opposing views, the one in which messenger plus/sponsor program, is wonderful, and anybody whom tries to say anything differently, is evil and nasty, with the other opposing view, where messenger plus/sponsor is evil and nasty, and destroys peoples computers,
I could happily build a page with either interpretation, and make it entirely factual, I'm trying to build a page, which considers both sides, which is why I'm here, to get your side, and no other reason
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patchou,
programs have been re-defined, by the anti Spyware committee, there not baby eating monsters, honest, the vast majority are decent people wishing to help others,
have you had correspondents with any of them? spybot ? etc.
I haven't investigated your sponsor, or looked at the Code side, of their program, assuming its a good Clean addware program, with no sinister side to it, I'm sure something could be worked out,
I,ll udate the page a bit and see were we go form there
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by RaceProUK on 12-02-2004 at 08:07 PM
quote:Makes sense, since 64.62.180.100 is the hopepage server.
Originally posted by WDZ
64.62.180.101 looks like the msgplus update server.
RE: RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-02-2004 at 10:30 PM
quote:ok, noted, no problem. Give a yell when you're finished with the page (after all these discussions) and I'll correct the interpunction for you...
Originally posted by Devilin
and thanks for the spell grammar check, I'll certainly use it
I'm dyslexic
quote:That last line states that this forum is full of scum and that we all start flaming to n00bs without reason. What you'll do when you print that line is generalizing and judging everybody because of 1 bad poster. This is far from honest and stating facts, in fact it is the opposite.
Originally posted by Devilin
quote:although the majority of responses were pleasant, one individual, did flame me, and suggested without provocation that I was quote "dimwitted"
We didn't flame and cursed you
So to be purely factual and honest, instead of saying
"For more information and assistance, on messenger plus, visits the messenger plus forum"
I should say
"message plus forum, where your likely to receive have a hostile and confrontational reception"
You said so yourself: "The majority of responses were pleasant. One individual did flame me and suggested without provocation that I was quote 'dimwitted'"
So, I can't see how that last line is an honest and factual representation of this forum. It would be very dishonest if you put that on the page....
"For more information and assistance, on messenger plus, visits the messenger plus forum" _is_ honest because what we are doing here is discussing things without flaming. And the reason why this forum exists is for providing information and assistance.
Did we judge you because we had some bad experienced before with people? Nope, because that would be a bad thing to do.
quote:No it isn't, if you put that line there, it would be twisting the truth.
Originally posted by Devilin
This is all about compromise CookieRevised
quote:Hence the reason why you should be as clear as possible and that is the reason of the things I suggested in my previous (lengthy) post...
Originally posted by Devilin
The Interpretation of facts, can be a tricky business, nothing is set in stone, its all open for interpretation
quote:You forget the third and most important and good one: the objective one.
Originally posted by Devilin
which is why I'm here, there's two opposing views, the one in which messenger plus/sponsor program, is wonderful, and anybody whom tries to say anything differently, is evil and nasty, with the other opposing view, where messenger plus/sponsor is evil and nasty, and destroys peoples computers.
It is not because we are regular users here that we can't be objective! If you do some research you'll see that we also often critized Messenger Plus!
quote:If you reread my previous (lengthy) post carefully, you'll see that I don't suggested things which are open for interpretation.
Originally posted by Devilin
I could happily build a page with either interpretation, and make it entirely factual, I'm trying to build a page, which considers both sides, which is why I'm here, to get your side, and no other reason
If I said that "clicking on yes" is confusing and not correct then it is not correct because it should be "click on install with sponsor". This has nothing todo with how I feel towards Plus!, but everything with stating things which are true, no matter if I (or anybody else) like it or not....
Also, in that same post of mine, I suggested what you should change in your personal addition to the uninstall manual. If I wouldn't be objective and all "pro-Plus!" I would have tried to convince you to delete that part. Instead, the things I said to add were only facts (to make it clear) and will not change your or anyones opinion of Plus!.
What I wanted to make clear in my previous post is that some things are not about comprimises or interpretations, but about pure facts. Even if you don't agree with them, they still are facts...
quote:Although this is directed to Patchou, I also gonna reply to this in "short".
Originally posted by Devilin
Patchou,
programs have been re-defined, by the anti Spyware committee, there not baby eating monsters, honest, the vast majority are decent people wishing to help others,
It is indeed a handfull of people who are radically against Plus! and have a very narrow point of view and bash everything and everyone related to Plus! without looking for a split second to the facts . Unfortunatly it is those people which have a big influence on the others because they shout the loudest. And because of that, other people (who know even less about adware/spyware.etc) believe anything what the "big shots" say, no matter if it is grounded on fact or on lies....
(And believe it or not, but their influence goes as far as to vendors of anti-virus software)
But, honesty demands me to say that there are also "big shots" with a broader view and actual do research stuff. Eventhough they also often have an anti-Plus! view and thus recommend to others not to install Plus!, they also point out the facts (eg: optional adware sponsor, how to uninstall, etc...) and don't spread false assumptions...
quote:Again directed to Patchou, but here I go: Personally, yes, I do correspond to them. In fact, the last few days I've been more on those kind of forums then I was on this forum...
Originally posted by Devilin
have you had correspondents with any of them? spybot ? etc.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-02-2004 at 10:42 PM
Are we haveing fun Yet ?
http://chooseknowledge.com/How-to-uninstall-Messenger-Plus.htm
I've removed the link to the facts page, for the moment while I contemplate what to do about it, I'd suggest a re write, with a more considered and a less bias approach Patchou
I intend to check back occasionally on the replies people get on this forum, and I may change the words above the link to this site, if the general state of replies are less than warned and friendly,
CookieRevised, the advice that people should disconnect from the Internet, if they turn off scanning software, is the Internet is full of nasty stuff, and any computer, should be fully protected, while connected, you don't need to go anywhere, do anything, simply connecting to the Internet unprotected and you become a potential victim, if you'd like I'll explain in more detail, just ask
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-02-2004 at 11:01 PM
I'm fully aware of what the internet is and what it can do (as long as the web existed I've been using it, heck even before that I used BBS's)
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-02-2004 at 11:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I'm fully aware of what the internet is and what it can do (as long as the web existed I've been using it, heck even before that I used BBS's)
Its far to large a subject for me to contemplate, being fully aware of CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised why should people disconnect? There is no internet activity at all when you uninstall Plus! or it's sponsor. This line is of no use what-so-ever and is confusing and wrong information.
"cough"
Reading through your very long posts, is delightful,
If you wish to discuss them, we should start with words on a individual basis, and there meaning, not there assumed meaning, there dictionary definition meaning, in context of course
How about the word fact,
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-03-2004 at 02:21 AM
Devilin, so that you don't misinterpret my actions: the first thread you opened was closed because of some replies people were making to you, and not because of your own messages. As you can see, I left this thread opened .
I don't think it's very right to remove the link to my facts page and replace it with an "attorney general" link. I do get the joke but a lot of people will not and will see that as "Patchou doesn't care at all so you'd better write to someone else".
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-03-2004 at 06:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
Devilin, so that you don't misinterpret my actions: the first thread you opened was closed because of some replies people were making to you, and not because of your own messages. As you can see, I left this thread opened
I don't think it's very right to remove the link to my facts page and replace it with an "attorney general" link. I do get the joke but a lot of people will not and will see that as "Patchou doesn't care at all so you'd better write to someone else".
Updated slightly, making official complaint, is legitimate, until the situation between your sponsor program, and the security software is resolved, there will be people genuinely suffering, this cannot continue indifferently, a third independent party may be required to resolve this, any government agency will not take sides,
Patchou your in business, I personally have no problems with you making money out of this, in fact I admire your entrepreneurial spirit, and I wish you luck, but business is a serious endeavor, its no joke
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by leito on 12-03-2004 at 06:51 AM
I read Devilin's page again, and it looks better, but from the beggining, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus" isn't accurate.
Because Messenger Plus doesn't install alone and if somone install it with the sponsor, he/she will just want to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor.
I suggest the title is changed to "How to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor (C2Media)"
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-03-2004 at 07:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leito.gt
I read Devilin's page again, and it looks better, but from the beggining, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus" isn't accurate.
Because Messenger Plus doesn't install alone and if somone install it with the sponsor, he/she will just want to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor.
I suggest the title is changed to "How to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor (C2Media)"
This is true, but it might be confusing, I'm assuming most people won't know exactly whom C2Media are, I'll try to think of a more inclusive but still simple title
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by leito on 12-03-2004 at 07:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I suggest the title is changed to "How to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor (C2Media)"
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
This is true, but it might be confusing, I'm assuming most people won't know exactly whom C2Media are, I'll try to think of a more inclusive but still simple title
I suggested the use of "(C2Media)" because we, people, need to name things and because, users could do a basic research about C2Media, before or after uninstalling it.
Good to see you will change the old title, hope you find the more inclusive title.
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by leito on 12-03-2004 at 05:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sam Spade
Are you saying that the Sponsor Program does not and can not download files or applications during installation or during uninstallation? How do we explain the Sponsor Program EULA which specifically gives permission for the Sponsor Program to download and install software and update at any time, without user interaction?
All this is speculation, the sponsor could "download files or applications during installation or during uninstallation" but it doesn't. C2Media is a well known advertisment company, and the Sponsor package has been adapted by Patchou and them to be less charged than others.
RE: RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-03-2004 at 08:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leito.gt
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I suggest the title is changed to "How to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor (C2Media)"quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
This is true, but it might be confusing, I'm assuming most people won't know exactly whom C2Media are, I'll try to think of a more inclusive but still simple title
I suggested the use of "(C2Media)" because we, people, need to name things and because, users could do a basic research about C2Media, before or after uninstalling it.
Good to see you will change the old title, hope you find the more inclusive title.
How to remove Messenger Plus 3 / C2Media
This is as close as I could get, limited space I can't double line, without running over the background image, choose knowledge, and I wouldn't like to change the text size, and lose the uniformity with other pages
But I'm always open to suggestions, and I will alter if its valid
so if you have a better idea leito.gt
Patchou
quote:
Devilin, so that you don't misinterpret my actions: the first thread you opened was closed because of some replies people were making to you, and not because of your own messages. As you can see, I left this thread opened
The misrepresentation, was my fault, soz
assuming I interpreter your thinking correctly,, I tend to run ahead of myself, I think forwards and sideways, often jumping to the conclusion of a problem, that hasn't yet been conceived, by the person I'm communicating with, i can see that errrrrrrr look on your face, I'll try to explainOriginally you picked up upon the point I made about being factual with cookie, and as your name was mentioned, it stuck, later I posted I intend to check back occasionally on the replies people get on this forum, and I may change the words above the link to this site, if the general state of replies are less than warned and friendly, and the assumption formed in your mind that I might actually consider this a hostile forum, its being nagging you a little bit, so you decided to add the bit above in your post,
Let me assure you I don't consider this a hostile forum, but I can tell from the general state of replies, there is some tension around, thinking ahead, with the anti virus programs starting to define the sponsor program as a trojan, the pressure you and the other people on this forum are under, from the anti Spyware programs, is about to get far worse, as the other anti virus programs, pick this up inevitably, and the anti Spyware, picks up and replicate the trojan definition,
In other words heat is about to get turned up considerably, with the inevitable consequences, I was just expressing a concern for this possible future event
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is everybody happy with this Now
http://chooseknowledge.com/How-to-uninstall-Messenger-Plus.htmPatchou---- remember your facts page
Hi cookie
RE: Devilin and the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-03-2004 at 11:31 PM
Again, thank you Devilin for keeping on having a nice chat. We all exchanged our point of views, you've apparently listened to what we had to say and that's very appreciated.
I'll close this thread again to avoid future possible misunderstandings, don't hesitate to create a new one if you feel it's necessary.