final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page - Printable Version
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final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-04-2004 at 02:09 PM
http://chooseknowledge.com/How-to-uninstall-Messenger-Plus.htm
Is everybody happy with this
Taking into consideration, and please read this extremely careful ( cookie )
My page primary traffic will be from , help forums that use hijack this, helping people to overcome difficulties, this was the reason for creating the page
And although I'm sure some of you would like to encourage, a entirely separate association with the sponsor program C2 the association is inevitable, because the two programs are downloaded in the same zip msgplus file, the two programs are installed in the one continuous installation screen, to uninstall C2 the user must uninstall messenger plus, my page will not be used, as a platform to distance one program from another, although I understand your reasons for trying
My page will not be used as a platform, for saying, the messenger plus and C2, are easily uninstall,--- although they can be, they can also be extremely difficult to uninstall, they can cause serious problems and misery to the messenger plus user ,
I will not at this point link to the facts page, the page itself contains many distorted statements under the title facts, if you like to discuss this, please start another thread, and I, and probably others, can run through the entire page, pointing out the mistakes, and misleading information,
Who to blame ?, when things do go wrong
Patchou, people through circumstances completely beyond their control, will suffer serious problems and misery, so whom should make complaints to,? Should I consider you as a valid form of complaints ?, no in your own how to uninstall guide, you state
"do not create another thread to complain, that's pointless"
And if somebody did complain to you, what would you do? What have you done so far ? to address these serious issues ?,
I'm always open for suggestions and alterations, to my page So ? Is everybody happy with this
http://chooseknowledge.com/How-to-uninstall-Messenger-Plus.htm
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 10:42 AM
With no replies, I'll assume everybody's happy, 
I'm sure the other help forums will keep me updated on any major change, to your software
I hope you and your sponsor, resolve your differences, with the security software, so I can eventually remove a high graphic content page
Your a decent and honorable bunch of people, and its been interesting, chatting with you, 
, and its a pleasure to see so much reliable support, for the users,
Patchou, if you decide to revise your facts page, please inform me, I don't believe your doing yourself or messenger plus full justice with it, offering dynamically opposed statements to some valid points, with no middle ground, I believe makes you look unsympathetic to peoples concerns and problems, which your obviously not
Have fun all
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 10:47 AM
quote:This is a forum. This means you'll have to wait for replies. People have lives too; we don't sit here in front on our computer 24/7. I'm very often on this forum (most then average) and only now I've seen your new thread... Give it time (at least till Patchou had the change to read this)...
Originally posted by Devilin
With no replies, I'll assume everybody's happy,
quote:I can assure you that Patchou has done many things and continue to do many things to address complains.
Originally posted by Devilin
And if somebody did complain to you, what would you do? What have you done so far ? to address these serious issues ?
He has many times contacted C2Media to address some things which they have changed. He has many times improved the setupscreen of Messenger Plus! to make users more aware of the sponsor (even if that meant that his income would drop!!), etc...
Read the forums and investigate yourself...
quote:If you have issues regarding "the facts"-page, then the forum is here to address them. It can't be more dynamic then that....
Originally posted by Devilin
Patchou, if you decide to revise your facts page, please inform me, I don't believe your doing yourself or messenger plus full justice with it, offering dynamically opposed statements to some valid points, with no middle ground, I believe makes you look unsympathetic to peoples concerns and problems, which your obviously not
As I sated in a private post to you, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus 3 / C2Media" _IS_ wrong. You talk about distorted statements and misleading information, well this title is a distored statement and misleading information itself. And that is not a biased opinion, it is a fact.
1) Messenger Plus! 3 is not C2Media
2) Messenger Plus! 3 is not made or from C2Media
3) The sponsor is from C2Media
4) Your guide does not explain how to uninstall C2Media. In fact you can not uninstall C2Media, as this is a company name.
quote:The point is that nobody want to seperate the association between the sponsor and C2Media. So, your argument would be true, if you included the word sponsor into the title, just like leito.gt had suggested in that other thread.
Originally posted by Devilin
And although I'm sure some of you would like to encourage, a entirely separate association with the sponsor program C2 the association is inevitable, because the two programs are downloaded in the same zip msgplus file, the two programs are installed in the one continuous installation screen, to uninstall C2 the user must uninstall messenger plus, my page will not be used, as a platform to distance one program from another, although I understand your reasons for trying
But if you don't have the space to add that long title, you can _not_ simply leave some words out because then the whole meaning of that title will be changed. See points above.
To give an example of what you did:
eg: original title: "computer literature helpdesk"
you changed it to "computer helpdesk"
So, without doubling the lines (which you can do as you've previously told us), it is:
* "How to remove Messenger Plus!'s sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus!'s sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "How to remove Messenger Plus!"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus!"
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 11:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:This is a forum. This means you'll have to wait for replies. People have lives to, we don't sit here in front on our computer 24/7. I'm very often on this forum (most then others) and only now I've seen your new thread... Give it time (at least till Patchou had the change to read this)...
Originally posted by Devilin
With no replies, I'll assume everybody's happy,
The thread, was quickly disappearing, it had over 30 viewers with no replies, although I appreciate the time and effort everybody in this forum gives, I also have other interests which limits my time
quote:I can assure you that Patchou has done many things and continue to do many things to address complains. Read the forums...
Originally posted by Devilin
And if somebody did complain to you, what would you do? What have you done so far ? to address these serious issues ?
quote:
Originally posted by Patchou
do not create another thread to complain, that's pointless.
I wish I had time to read every post in this forum, unfortunately I don't, although I have read some, my time is limited, perhaps a specific complaints page? might resolve this
quote:If you have issues regarding "the facts"-page, then the forum is here to address them. It can't be more dynamic then that....
Originally posted by Devilin
Patchou, if you decide to revise your facts page, please inform me, I don't believe your doing yourself or messenger plus full justice with it, offering dynamically opposed statements to some valid points, with no middle ground, I believe makes you look unsympathetic to peoples concerns and problems, which your obviously not
quote:Maybe you misread this,? I'm sure that's I suggested myself
Originally posted by Devilin
I will not at this point link to the facts page, the page itself contains many distorted statements under the title facts, if you like to discuss this, please start another thread, and I, and probably others, can run through the entire page, pointing out the mistakes, and misleading information,
As I sated in a private post to you, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus 3 / C2Media" _IS_ wrong. You talk about distorted statements and misleading information, well this title is distored information and misleading information itself. And that is not a biased opinion, it is a fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
And although I'm sure some of you would like to encourage, a entirely separate association with the sponsor program C2 the association is inevitable, because the two programs are downloaded in the same zip msgplus file, the two programs are installed in the one continuous installation screen, to uninstall C2 the user must uninstall messenger plus, my page will not be used, as a platform to distance one program from another, although I understand your reasons for trying
? What zip file do you download ? messenger plus & C2 media sponsor zip? No msgplus
the two programs are installed in the one continuous installation screen
to uninstall C2 the user must uninstall messenger plus
my page will not be used, as a platform to distance one program from another
1) Messenger Plus! 3 is not C2Media-- although there combined in the zip file, installation, uninstall, and I at no point suggested they were the same program
2) Messenger Plus! 3 is not made or from C2Media-------although there combined in the zip file, installation, uninstall, and I at no point suggested they were the same program
3) The sponsor is from C2Media-------although there combined in the zip file, installation, uninstall, and I at no point suggested they were the same program
4) Your guide does not explain how to uninstall C2Media. In fact you can not uninstall C2Media, as this is a company name. no you uninstall, messenger plus? These lines of difference, are very innocuous
quote:That argument would be true, if you included the word sponsor into the title, just like leito.gt had suggested in that other thread. But if you don't have the space to add that long title, you can not simply leave some words out because the whole meaning of that title will be changed. See points above.
Originally posted by Devilin
And although I'm sure some of you would like to encourage, a entirely separate association with the sponsor program C2 the association is inevitable, because the two programs are downloaded in the same zip msgplus file, the two programs are installed in the one continuous installation screen, to uninstall C2 the user must uninstall messenger plus, my page will not be used, as a platform to distance one program from another, although I understand your reasons for trying
Although I sure you'd like me to insert the entire facts page, in the title, it isn't possible , unless you can conceive of a alternative title, but as I stated, I'm not a platform to distance one program from another
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 11:47 AM
sorry, but you are clearly missing the point...
quote:1) Even if they are combined that doesn't mean they are the same.
Originally posted by Devilin
quote:although there combined in the zip file, installation, uninstall
1) Messenger Plus! 3 is not C2Media
2) Messenger Plus! 3 is not made or from C2Media
3) The sponsor is from C2Media
2) As said before C2Media is a COMPANY name, not the name of piece of software
quote:Yes you do by using the title "How to remove Messenger Plus 3 / C2Media", that's the whole point...
Originally posted by Devilin
and I at no point suggested they were the same program
quote:These lines are unbiased facts.
Originally posted by Devilin
quote:These lines of difference, are very innocuous
4) Your guide does not explain how to uninstall C2Media. In fact you can not uninstall C2Media, as this is a company name. no you uninstall, messenger plus?
quote:NO, I don't, reread all my posts.
Originally posted by Devilin
Although I sure you'd like me to insert the entire facts page, in the title
quote:Reread my posts and private post, since you changed the title, I constantly said to use: "How to remove Messenger Plus!" instead.
Originally posted by Devilin
unless you can conceive of a alternative title
To give an example of what you did:
eg: original title: "computer literature helpdesk"
you changed it to "computer helpdesk"
And that clearly does not mean the same...
So, without doubling the lines (which you can do as you've previously told us), it is:
* "How to remove Messenger Plus!'s sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus!'s sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "How to remove Messenger Plus!"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus!"
PS: try to use the quote system properly.
quote:guests who can't post, can still view the thread. 30 views mean nothing. This is a big forum
Originally posted by Devilin
The thread, was quickly disappearing, it had over 30 viewers with no replies
quote:Same as we. If you're serious about making your uninstall page, you can at least wait for Patchou's reply....
Originally posted by Devilin
although I appreciate the time and effort everybody in this forum gives, I also have other interests which limits my time
quote:If you're serious about making your uninstall page, at least take the time to investigate it properly instead of making false assumptions.
Originally posted by Devilin
I wish I had time to read every post in this forum, unfortunately I don't
quote:That is why this forum is here. Again, if you're so serious about making your uninstall page, at least take the time.
Originally posted by Devilin
although I have read some, my time is limited, perhaps a specific complaints page? might resolve this
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 01:25 PM
Hi CookieRevised
Fact, the glass is Half empty, anybody whom says it isn't is obviously lying, and hasn't research the matter fully
The same statement could also be applied to the glass is Half fall, the glass contains 50% liquid, the liquid is surrounded by 50 percent more glass, etc. etc. etc. all are valid depending upon your point of view,
CookieRevised, there are no facts, on a fundamental level, nothing can be proved or disapproved, apart from I think therefore I exist, but even that is open to interpretation, even the basis, of one of the most fundamental laws, e=mc squared, energy = mass squared by the speed of light, C. standing for the speed of light, the only universal Constant, isn't entirely accurate the speed of light isn't constant, its affected by gravity, and some other stuff, which I won't go into
Back to the name used for how to uninstall,
I worked it out this way, from a absolute beginners point of view, all that suggests, the two programs, should be perceived as one, outweigh all the suggestions, they should not be perceived as one,
from the initial download, the installation, the uninstall,
from the beginners point of view, obviously if the beginner fully research the matter, it might indeed change their perception,
CookieRevised, slow down, calm down and try to keep a Open mind about this, and try to perceive this, from the point of view, of somebody whom knows little about computers, has ended up in trouble, and has ended up on my page, because they were pointed there by a help forum
Taking this into consideration, if you can think of a better title, please let me no,------- as I previously stated, I cannot double line, because it would conflict with the background choose knowledge image, and I don't wish to alter the text size and lose continuity with the other pages
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 01:47 PM
quote:1) I have a far more open mind then you it seems
Originally posted by Devilin
CookieRevised, slow down, calm down and try to keep a Open mind about this, and try to perceive this, from the point of view, of somebody whom knows little about computers, has ended up in trouble, and has ended up on my page, because they were pointed there by a help forum
2) What you clearly don't understand is that some things are FACTS and are not open for discussion (and that has nothing to do with cencorship). I've done nothing more then talking about facts. I didn't say a word about things which are open for interpretation.
3) When you state "Messenger Plus!/C2Media", that CLEARLY UNDOUBTEDLY WITHOUT DISCUSSION means "Messenger Plus! = C2Media"
Look up the meaning of the symbol "/". I don't say this because I use Messenger Plus!. Every independant person will say the same. This has NOTHING todo with "look at it from a absolute beginners point of view" because it is NOT a point of view but a grammatic language fact.
And Messenger Plus! is NOT C2Media:
1) C2Media is a company, while Messenger Plus! is a program
3) Mesenger Plus! is NOT made by C2Media
2) If you mention C2Media it can only be done in association with the SPONSOR of Messenger Plus!
quote:AGAIN: reread my posts. I've states the alternatives again and again. I will repeat it one more time:
Originally posted by Devilin
Taking this into consideration, if you can think of a better title, please let me no,------- as I previously stated, I cannot double line, because it would conflict with the background choose knowledge image, and I don't wish to alter the text size and lose continuity with the other pages
So, WITHOUT doubling the lines (which you can do as you've previously told us), it is:
* "How to remove Messenger Plus' sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus' sponsor (C2Media)"
* or "How to remove Messenger Plus!"
* or "Remove Messenger Plus!"
take your pick, whatever fits...
EDIT: Oh, and for your information, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus' sponsor (C2Media)" is NOT too long. I just edited the page myself, and it nicely fits in there without a double line and without changing anything to the fonts, etc... So surely the other three alternatives fit also (ADDENDUM: After Chrono's post, honesty demands me to say that the title-test of mine was done in 1024x786 screen resolution)
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Sam Spade on 12-05-2004 at 02:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
3) When you state "Messenger Plus!/C2Media", that CLEARLY UNDOUBTEDLY WITHOUT DISCUSSION means "Messenger Plus! = C2Media"
Look up the meaning of the symbol "/". I don't say this because I use Messenger Plus!. Every independant person will say the same. This has NOTHING todo with "look at it from a absolute beginners point of view" because it is NOT a point of view but a grammatic language fact.
You are incorrect. An " / " does not equate with an " = ".
On the page in question, the separator can be read to be simply an abbreviation (replacement) for the word "and" or "or", or even better "and/or".
Going on your assessment of the separator, the meaning of very common phraseology and/or would be 'and = or". This is incorrect.
Consider this grammatical form of multiple choice that I have seen on various forms over time.
I wish to see a doctor and/or a nurse.
I do/do not wish to receive further correspondence.
I have/have not applied for US citizenship.
I will/will not be seeking further information.
Of course, English is not the primary/common language of Belgium. The nuances of the English language easily fade without constant use and study.
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 02:47 PM
quote:EVEN THEN IT IS WRONG REREAD MY POSTS
Originally posted by Sam Spade
On the page in question, the separator can be read to be simply an abbreviation (replacement) for the word "and" or "or", or even better "and/or".
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 07:08 PM
Read your posts, CookieRevised like this one ?
quote:
In other words, it is not because you didn't come across such boxes that it is a rare/unusual method. Facts are that it is a very commonly known/reconized method (also the reason why nobody ever complained about it)....
This is from when you tried, to convince me that Lots of programs used security number boxes, while uninstalling, the use of the word facts, and the The Virgule/ certainly are revealed
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000140.htm
Fact, the messenger plus, download page, mentions a sponsor, in small text, at the bottom of a line of small text, it doesn't mention,C2 media directly -http://www.msgplus.net/download.php
Fact, once downloaded, the zip files name, is msgplus, again no mention of C2 media
Fact once unziped the file is under the name msgplus-setup, again no mention of C2 media,
fact Only on the third screen during installation is C2 media mentioned
The facts show the lack of prominence of C2 media's name, and the prominence of messenger plus's name, while uninstalling C2 media, This is done under the name messenger plus 3
And you'd like me to highlight C2 media's prominence, and diminished the prominence of messenger plus, and any possible association with C2 media
? you are joking aren't you ?
I'm prepared to listen and adjust my page to any request, but I will not be used as a platform, to promote a one sided distorted point of view
My original name for the page was
How to remove Messenger Plus!"
I was asked to include the name C2 media
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Patchou on 12-05-2004 at 07:39 PM
Well, I'm justdisapointed to see that we talked for nothing becaues in the end, you've done the maximum to write a page that's against Messenger Plus!, without giving a chance to your users to understand that this is not about uninstalling a trojan that will format your hard disk. You accuse me of bing misleading, you are absolutely no different and pages like yourswill continue to justify the existence of my facts page, so that people can get a refreshing point of view from time to time.
Don't say you're opened to suggestions, we've talked a lot with you and the current result is no different, if not worse, than the original page. I would have hoped you understand the situation better.
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Chrono on 12-05-2004 at 08:11 PM
quote:of course, as the sponsor is that, just a sponsor -_-
Originally posted by Devilin
Fact, once downloaded, the zip files name, is msgplus, again no mention of C2 media
or the filename of kazaa was "kazaa-bundled by thousands of spyware programs" ? they never let u know about them.
quote:again, u are downloading messenger plus! which optionally has adware, why would it be stated in the filename? it would be so long. and does any other program do that? (mention some of them if u are gonna say "yes"
Originally posted by Devilin
Fact once unziped the file is under the name msgplus-setup, again no mention of C2 media,
).quote:u dont really get the facts right -_- on the second page it already warns u about the sponsor. the "next" button takes some seconds to enable itslef, so the user _reads_ that window. it warns u that in the next screen, the sponsor's agreement will be displayed.
Originally posted by Devilin
fact Only on the third screen during installation is C2 media mentioned
quote:after reading all your posts, i think you are the one who's joking
Originally posted by Devilin
? you are joking aren't you ?
you talk about facts, but your page is always made "from the begginers point of view", and miss some facts, like what cookie mentioned through all his posts.
quote:your page is a distorted point of view. it's the begginers distorted point of view, as you stated.
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm prepared to listen and adjust my page to any request, but I will not be used as a platform, to promote a one sided distorted point of view
PS: the title is already in two lines, in 800*600 mode
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 09:36 PM
quote:Like I said, even if it does mean "and" or "or", the statement "Plus! / C2media" is wrong by those same facts.
Originally posted by Devilin
and the The Virgule/ certainly are revealed
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000140.htm
* You don't remove Messenger Plus! "OR" C2Media => C2Media is the name of a company, a company can not be uninstalled from your computer.
* You don't remove Messenger Plus! "AND" C2Media => C2Media is the name of a company, a company can not be uninstalled from your computer
* Messenger Plus! is NOT made by C2Media
Oh, and reread that page and use your common sense. (Sam Spade, take also note) The overall rule for the slant bar ("/") means both parts on both sides should be interpreted as EQUAL, aka ALTERNATIVES (and even the dictionaries back me up on this). And that is why I said it means "=".
Also, you use the slant in your page on the most impossible places, so don't go telling me what the meaning is of the slant and when to use it or not...
Furthermore:
quote:Do not lie. You were asked to inlcude "SPONSOR (C2MEDIA)", nothing else! It is you who made it into the wrong, distorted and misleading title. Or must I refresh your memory by pointing out the original thread?
Originally posted by Devilin
I was asked to include the name C2 media
quote:YOU are NOT prepared to listen and/or adjust the page unless it fits in your distored narrow minded view!
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm prepared to listen and adjust my page to any request, but I will not be used as a platform, to promote a one sided distorted point of view
In fact I don't understand what you want. We clearly talked to you in a civil unbiased sense. We only once suggested to include the "the facts"-page, without creating multiple threads/rants about it. You didn't want it to do as you think it is biased. Fine... respect to that. We didn't mention it again.
We NEVER wanted to use your page as a platform to promote Plus!. You are too narrow minded and biased to even see/understand that....
I can see clearly now that you even don't know the difference between a point of view and an unbiased fact. Maybe even if my arguments weren't 100% correct, in the end the meaning of your title is still incorrect even by your own standards and facts, see above.
And indeed, as Chrono said, the title is already split up into 2 lines on 800x600 screenresolution. A screenresolution which is still often used by people on the net. And furthermore, a webpage is something that needs to be dynamic; it should display fine on every resolution. You can't pin yourself on "it will distort the layout". If you do that, then you obviously do not know what the essence is of the web and how to create webpages.
I gave you the benefit of doubt and offered again and again alternatives to the title (including the word "c2media"). Yet you still ignored to even comment on those alternatives. Simply because you KNOW that those alternatives were correct and fitted in the space.
Instead you relentlessly tried to find the very small inaccurate things in my arguments just to justified your big suggestive and biased view of things.
So, you see, it is not us who are biased and narrow minded. And that is even supported by the fact that you say you don't have the time to investigate things, yet comming up with all suggestive, wrong ideas and things which are totaly based on nothing except your own fantasy and paranoidness.
Let me tell you that I know persons who also don't share the view that we have about Plus! and its sponsor, but at least they take the time to investigate and try to explain the things in the right context. Although they don't exceed in it in OUR point of view they still state the facts as they are, only they interprete them differently. You don't even state the facts correct.
(and then I even didn't mention the other wrong things on some of your other pages of which even I aren't affiliated with and have nothing todo with IM'ing)
You want to be an objective reporter of things, and let every view pass the revue? Well let me tell you that you grandly failed...
RE: RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 10:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chrono
quote:of course, as the sponsor is that, just a sponsor -_-
Originally posted by Devilin
Fact, once downloaded, the zip files name, is msgplus, again no mention of C2 media
or the filename of kazaa was "kazaa-bundled by thousands of spyware programs" ? they never let u know about them.
quote:
Originally posted by leito.gtI read Devilin's page again, and it looks better, but from the beggining, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus" isn't accurate.quote:
Originally posted by leito.gtI suggested the use of "(C2Media)" because we, people, need to name things and because, users could do a basic research about C2Media, before or after uninstalling it.
So I changed it,
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevisedAs I sated in a private post to you, the title "How to remove Messenger Plus 3 / C2Media" _IS_ wrong. You talk about distorted statements and misleading information, well this title is a distored statement and misleading information itself. And that is not a biased opinion, it is a fact.
1) Messenger Plus! 3 is not C2Media
2) Messenger Plus! 3 is not made or from C2Media
3) The sponsor is from C2Media
4) Your guide does not explain how to uninstall C2Media. In fact you can not uninstall C2Media, as this is a company name.
Thus above I was explaining how, you couldn't realistically differentiate between the two programs, from a beginners point of view, and how the confusion would start,
Add C2Media remove C2Media------make up your minds please
quote:
Because Messenger Plus doesn't install alone and if somone install it with the sponsor, he/she will just want to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor.
I suggest the title is changed to "How to remove Messenger Plus's Sponsor (C2Media)
It won't fit, try an abbreviations
quote:quote:again, u are downloading messenger plus! which optionally has adware, why would it be stated in the filename? it would be so long. and does any other program do that? (mention some of them if u are gonna say "yes"
Originally posted by Devilin
Fact once unziped the file is under the name msgplus-setup, again no mention of C2 media,
I believe this is answered above
quote:The second screen displays the text sponsored program, the text C2 media, isn't used until the third page, my facts, are extremely straight,quote:u dont really get the facts right -_- on the second page it already warns u about the sponsor. the "next" button takes some seconds to enable itslef, so the user _reads_ that window. it warns u that in the next screen, the sponsor's agreement will be displayed.
Originally posted by Devilin
fact Only on the third screen during installation is C2 media mentioned
quote:quote:after reading all your posts, i think you are the one who's joking
Originally posted by Devilin
? you are joking aren't you ?
you talk about facts, but your page is always made "from the begginers point of view", and miss some facts, like what cookie mentioned through all his posts.
Undoubtedly by page will miss lots of facts, both positive and negative, try reading my posts again, my aim was a simple easing to understand page, unbiased in its approach,
quote:quote:your page is a distorted point of view. it's the begginers distorted point of view, as you stated.
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm prepared to listen and adjust my page to any request, but I will not be used as a platform, to promote a one sided distorted point of view
If you point out, these distortions, I'll be happy to amend them, if I truly wished to produce a distorted and un true page, I wouldn't be here, now would I
quote:
PS: the title is already in two lines, in 800*600 mode
Not in IE , firefox, isn't the most popular browser --yet but good for you for using it, I'm still trying to overturn the Cross browser distortions
quote:
Posted by Patchou - Today at 07:39 AM
Well, I'm justdisapointed to see that we talked for nothing becaues in the end, you've done the maximum to write a page that's against Messenger Plus!, without giving a chance to your users to understand that this is not about uninstalling a trojan that will format your hard disk. You accuse me of bing misleading, you are absolutely no different and pages like yourswill continue to justify the existence of my facts page, so that people can get a refreshing point of view from time to time.
Don't say you're opened to suggestions, we've talked a lot with you and the current result is no different, if not worse, than the original page. I would have hoped you understand the situation better.
I'm sorry you feel that way, obviously the page isn't pro messenger plus enough for you, even though it suggests you can use messenger plus, without the sponsor at the bottom of the page, ------ which in a way is good, I didn't wish to write a pro messenger plus page, I didn't wish to write a anti messenger plus page, its also been suggested, from the anti brigade, that the page is far to pro, I'm happy to have reached a point, where you don't both like it equally,
mine is the beginners point of view, one that just doesn't care, that just wants a solution to a problem, not propaganda from either sideAnd I'm sure if your facts page, is entirely correct, nobody will ever have any problems, uninstall messenger plus or its sponsor program, nobody will ever need assistance on other help forms, so logically nobody will ever see my page,
a lot of fuss over nothing wouldn't you sayRE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Stigmata on 12-05-2004 at 10:18 PM
ok, Devilin, to be quite honest, and hopefully speaking for the rest of the forum...
i believe you are picking fights that are not needed.
cookie revisited, please dont agrovate our guest.
visit http://www.msgplus.net/getthefacts.php
if you disagree, then shame on you....
end of story if you ask me
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-05-2004 at 10:22 PM
quote:We NEVER told you to just add "C2Media", reread that other thread...
Originally posted by Devilin
Add C2Media remove C2Media------make up your minds please
quote:This whole thread is about the TITLE, NOTHING ELSE. Changing the title like I said before, is no propaganda in any way, if you would see that we wouldn't had this discussion at the moment...
Originally posted by Devilin
mine is the beginners point of view, one that just doesn't care, that just wants a solution to a problem, not propaganda from either side
RE: RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-05-2004 at 10:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stigmata
ok, Devilin, to be quite honest, and hopefully speaking for the rest of the forum...
i believe you are picking fights that are not needed.
cookie revisited, please dont agrovate our guest.
visit http://www.msgplus.net/getthefacts.php
if you disagree, then shame on you....
end of story if you ask me
I certainly didn't intend or Institute this, but I can see what you mean, your entirely correct, I will not visit this forum anymore to stop any more sillyness, if anybody wishes to contact me in a serious way, about adjusting the page, use my form on my site,
Have fun all
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by downloaders on 12-06-2004 at 06:03 AM
Just wanted to say that i choose not to install anything else than the plus itself and my pc got full undesirable behaviours (Something was installed that i did not wanted to)
I will not install it anymore, because I don't know if it is possible to get only the app.
You should write in BIG letters, what the prog does exactly to our pc's and what behaviours will it create whitout us knowing how to disable them.
I'm not talking about the app itself, im talking about the litttle things that come whit it.
Don't believe anything I say, i'm a liar, but wooud apreciate an answer. Sorry for my english.
Devilin: Thanks for your page, gave me some information i didn't know about. My time is to precious to spend it reading small text.
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by f1d0d1d08989 on 12-06-2004 at 08:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
With no replies, I'll assume everybody's happy
-----
The thread, was quickly disappearing, it had over 30 viewers with no replies, although I appreciate the time and effort everybody in this forum gives, I also have other interests which limits my time
Firstly, I would like to say something about this first. I saw this thread minutes after you posted it. I actually wanted to post something, but I didnt. Know why? Cause I wanna to let others speak first; I feel that I dont really have the right to speak in all your discussions with Patchou, CookieRevised, others and you, judging from the previous discussions that you all had the other time. Do you need a link to that page? I bet that you will still remember it. Thats why you did changes to that page, and you think that its so perfect now...
Besides, not everyone turns on their PC to check this forum, and even if they did, I dare to say that some people dont wanna post cause they feel that they dont have the right to post anything here...
And, you think only you have other interests?
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
And if somebody did complain to you, what would you do? What have you done so far ? to address these serious issues ?,
If Patchou didnt do anything to address the issues (bugs, and even C2Media) complained, would Messenger Plus developed to this state today with all these great features? Would so many people download it? NO. I dont think I am biased due to I am a great supporter of Messenger Plus, but, if Patchou didnt listen to the complains, people will NOT use it anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I wish I had time to read every post in this forum, unfortunately I don't, although I have read some, my time is limited, perhaps a specific complaints page? might resolve this
Then whats the point of this forum? Isnt this something like a 'complain' page where people can post their problems here? If you really wanna to give your users that read your page with something useful, do your research first.
Didnt your teacher in any form of schooling teach you before, that you need to base your points with actual facts? You cant just assume it, just like you cant assume that an apple drops down a tree due to magical powers...
(I know the statement above is crappy, dont need to point it out)
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
My page will not be used as a platform, for saying, the messenger plus and C2, are easily uninstall,--- although they can be, they can also be extremely difficult to uninstall, they can cause serious problems and misery to the messenger plus user ,
Okay, if you dont want to use your page as a platform for saying that they are easily uninstalled, then dont! Nobody is forcing you in anyway to do that...
Another thing, why do you say that it can be extremely difficult to uninstall? If its so difficult to uninstall, then why are the steps stated in your website so easy to uninstall Messenger Plus?
Btw, I see that you are using either a Windows 98 or Windows ME PC right? But hey, many of us are on Windows XP now!
Just like what you said, from a beginner's point of view, he might not know what to do, since your screenshots are taken differently from his. If you really want to make it so easy, then, make it cross OS compatible!
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Although I sure you'd like me to insert the entire facts page, in the title, it isn't possible , unless you can conceive of a alternative title, but as I stated, I'm not a platform to distance one program from another
NOBODY asked you to add the entire facts page in the title. I read all the forum pages, right to those which are not relevant, but, nothing has said to ask you to write the entire facts page in the title. Wouldnt it be foolish to think of that? Anyone with some common sense would know that it is quite impossible to some point to add the entire facts page in the title.
You dont need to be a platform to distance one program from another, but, what we just want from you is that you present something that is really useful to the users, not like the hack slash way you created your website (more on that later) and gives us the impression that you are creating something that helps people. It actually confuses them.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
The same statement could also be applied to the glass is Half fall, the glass contains 50% liquid, the liquid is surrounded by 50 percent more glass, etc. etc. etc. all are valid depending upon your point of view,
CookieRevised, there are no facts, on a fundamental level, nothing can be proved or disapproved, apart from I think therefore I exist, but even that is open to interpretation, even the basis, of one of the most fundamental laws, e=mc squared, energy = mass squared by the speed of light, C. standing for the speed of light, the only universal Constant, isn't entirely accurate the speed of light isn't constant, its affected by gravity, and some other stuff, which I won't go into
Hey, whats the point of putting all these things there? Show us that your science is wonderful? We dont need that, even if it is to give us a hidden meaning of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
CookieRevised, slow down, calm down and try to keep a Open mind about this, and try to perceive this, from the point of view, of somebody whom knows little about computers, has ended up in trouble, and has ended up on my page, because they were pointed there by a help forum
Taking this into consideration, if you can think of a better title, please let me no,------- as I previously stated, I cannot double line, because it would conflict with the background choose knowledge image, and I don't wish to alter the text size and lose continuity with the other pages
Hey, maybe its you that didnt keep an open mind about it. Btw, you forgot to use 'an' instead of 'a' there. Keep in mind about your english, although mine is not perfect.
If you are really serious about putting screenshots, just like what I said earlier, use a interface thats more common nowdays. If Microsoft released Windows XP, and many people have adopted to use it, they will show product features on their website (for example) designed for Windows XP, and not for other versions of Windows.
I am trying to say that, in this time, use something that is more common. Just check the advertisments. I dont know for you, but for me, in Singapore, the advertisments for computers includes a bundle of softwares, and it will include a version of Windows. All the advertisments now are promoting Windows XP, so you can see that many people have already adopted it.
Just one sentence: If its for a beginner, how would he uninstall if he sees that it is different from his computer?
As for the hack slash way you created your website. I know that mostly, if not all, web developers want their page to be consistant. But, you can change in a way that you can include a longer title without losing consistancy. I didnt edit your site, and thats the last thing I want to do, but, as I can observe, changing it wont harm anything, unless you show us concrete evidence, like maybe putting a page up on your server that shows the changes, exclusively for us people here.
If you cant show some evidence, whats the point of saying it?
quote:
Originally posted by Sam Spade
You are incorrect. An " / " does not equate with an " = ".
On the page in question, the separator can be read to be simply an abbreviation (replacement) for the word "and" or "or", or even better "and/or".
Going on your assessment of the separator, the meaning of very common phraseology and/or would be 'and = or". This is incorrect.
Consider this grammatical form of multiple choice that I have seen on various forms over time.
Where did you get this information from? Just from what you assumed? Give something to back up your information, please.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I was asked to include the name C2 media
Who asked you to do it? Shall I just quote everything from the forum here to show you that we didnt ask you to that?
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm prepared to listen and adjust my page to any request, but I will not be used as a platform, to promote a one sided distorted point of view
Adjust your page to any request? Stop kidding me man. Just asking you to explore alternative ways to change the title take so much time already, and you still say that you are prepared to listen? Please, we are tired of it already, dont we?
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Not in IE , firefox, isn't the most popular browser --yet but good for you for using it, I'm still trying to overturn the Cross browser distortions
Hey, Mozilla is getting porpularity. If you dont create something that is cross browser fast, dont even think of having consistancy.
I dont really quite understand what you meant there, but just want to tell you, I used another PC to test out with a 800X600 resolution, and its double line. And, I used IE, not Mozilla, Firefox, or Netscape. Simply, any computer with a 800X600 resolution will see that it is double line, so, you are not consistant in any way, if it is viewed with a 800X600 resolution.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I'm sorry you feel that way, obviously the page isn't pro messenger plus enough for you, even though it suggests you can use messenger plus, without the sponsor at the bottom of the page, ------ which in a way is good, I didn't wish to write a pro messenger plus page, I didn't wish to write a anti messenger plus page, its also been suggested, from the anti brigade, that the page is far to pro, I'm happy to have reached a point, where you don't both like it equally, mine is the beginners point of view, one that just doesn't care, that just wants a solution to a problem, not propaganda from either side
And I'm sure if your facts page, is entirely correct, nobody will ever have any problems, uninstall messenger plus or its sponsor program, nobody will ever need assistance on other help forms, so logically nobody will ever see my page, a lot of fuss over nothing wouldn't you say
Who needs a page that is give so many pros of Messenger Plus when someone wants to just uninstall Messenger Plus? You know, people look for pages like yours because they dont trust Messenger Plus anymore, so they dont look for a page teaching how to uninstall on the main page of Messenger Plus (http://www.msgplus.net). They want something that is useful to them, so they look for pages like yours. But, you give them some things that are not true, and in some cases, it is not useful. Not at all when it is not my OS. Btw, whats the link Washington State Office of the Attorney General for? For those people who want to sue Patchou for Messenger Plus that includes a sponser?
Please answer my questions, no matter how rude I am, before you go around accusing Patchou again.
quote:
Spam: Any post that is off-topic or contributes nothing useful or interesting to a thread is considered to be spam. Most spam posts will be moved or deleted. Spam includes posts that:
* only contain emoticons.
* only contain a short message, such as "LOL" or "hello."
* are posted more than once, or immediately after another one of your posts (double post). There is an edit button. Learn to use it.
Oh, just before I forget to say, do you know that double posting is not allowed? You see the rules (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/rules.html), it clearly states that double posting is not allowed, instead, use the Edit button. Maybe I dont have the right to point that out to you, cause I am not a mod, but since nobody pointed it out, I will.
Signed,
f1d0d1d08989
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Chrono on 12-06-2004 at 09:29 AM
quote:im not using firefox
Originally posted by Devilin
Not in IE , firefox, isn't the most popular browser --yet but good for you for using it, I'm still trying to overturn the Cross browser distortions
i hope thats not the way you get the "facts" for your page (guessing )im using avant, which is almost the same as IE, so i opened your page in Internet Explorer and voilá
wanna see?
http://chrono.pluslite.com/800x600.jpg
quote:if you selected NOT to install the sponsor, nothing except Plus! will be installed
Originally posted by downloaders
Just wanted to say that i choose not to install anything else than the plus itself and my pc got full undesirable behaviours (Something was installed that i did not wanted to)
I will not install it anymore, because I don't know if it is possible to get only the app.
You should write in BIG letters, what the prog does exactly to our pc's and what behaviours will it create whitout us knowing how to disable them.
I'm not talking about the app itself, im talking about the litttle things that come whit it.
Don't believe anything I say, i'm a liar, but wooud apreciate an answer. Sorry for my english.
Devilin: Thanks for your page, gave me some information i didn't know about. My time is to precious to spend it reading small text.
. So if you got 'something' thenA) its not from Plus!, you got it from somewhere else, there are thousands of programs which will install "stuff" withouth your consent (not being Plus! one of them
).B) you agreed to install the sponsor.
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Sam Spade on 12-06-2004 at 10:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
EVEN THEN IT IS WRONG REREAD MY POSTS
<sigh> You're SHOUTING!!!
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by Devilin on 12-06-2004 at 09:08 PM
Opps forgot to turn of email notification, last post honest
I entered the Lions den, to poke the lion, and to get some answers,
What started, as healthy debate, arguments, and counter arguments, resulted in me changing parts of my page, which I believe was healthy and productive,------ but this ended up becoming a petty and bickering non discussion, I myself must take a large proportion of the blame for this, I apologize for this, anyway any continued discussion on this forum, obviously isn't useful or helpful, for anybody
Did I come here looking for links ? when you have your own uninstall guide, think about it
Did I come here looking for approval, again think about it
And while you've thinking about it, consider this, its a high graphic content page
? So why did I come here, why have I built an entire site dedicated to helping people ?, profit? The ads I run pay for the site, and creates enough revenue to produce another site, and what's the other site about, helping people, and a bit of fun
So why do I spend my valuable time helping people ? again think about it
If somebody wishes to discuss possible alterations, on a serious level, use my form, I'll arrange a neutral forum--- the offer is there, although I doubt it will be taken up---
If you like to continue ranting, please continue below this post
Have fun all
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by user27089 on 12-06-2004 at 09:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Opps forgot to turn of email notification, last post honest
I'm sure nobody minds you still posting, as long as you aren't the instigator of any more arguments throught this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
What started, as healthy debate, arguments, and counter arguments, resulted in me changing parts of my page, which I believe was healthy and productive,------ but this ended up becoming a petty and bickering non discussion, I myself must take a large proportion of the blame for this, I apologize for this, anyway any continued discussion on this forum, obviously isn't useful or helpful, for anybody
Did I come here looking for links ? when you have your own uninstall guide, think about it
Did I come here looking for approval, again think about it
And while you've thinking about it, consider this, its a high graphic content page
? So why did I come here, why have I built an entire site dedicated to helping people ?, profit? The ads I run pay for the site, and creates enough revenue to produce another site, and what's the other site about, helping people, and a bit of fun
So why do I spend my valuable time helping people ? again think about it
If somebody wishes to discuss possible alterations, on a serious level, use my form, I'll arrange a neutral forum--- the offer is there, although I doubt it will be taken up---
If you like to continue ranting, please continue below this post
Have fun all
The changes in your page weren't healthy and productive, they were just biased views on messenger plus! and its sponsor program. The, as you say, 'bickering' wasn't petty, we were merely trying to get our points of view accross, and giving you the actual facts, you, being narrow minded (as said by cookie), refused to take our information, and instead, put as you pleased on your site, regardless if the facts were true or not.
Actually, you did pretty much come here for approval in my opinion, or just to show the page, it may have been a mistake from your point of view, but it was also helping you, but you didn't listen to anything we said, you refuse to put the facts on your page, what we say isn't just utter rubbish, its the truth! If you want to make a decent page, then stake the facts, don't just state your opinion on what you think of it, thats not everybodies opinion, and if they read into plus! properly, then they would probably agree with us rather than to agree with you!
This page isn't really helping people, its putting a negative outlook on Messenger Plus! get the facts!
What we are saying is on a serious level, but the way that you are posting, sarcastically, not listening to other peoples opinions is making other members angry, therefore, making you the instigator of these 'petty' outbreaks of 'bickering'.
RE: RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by CookieRevised on 12-07-2004 at 01:51 AM
I said to myself that I wasn't going to reply anymore as it wouldn't have any result anyway and it would be lost energie. But after some time and after your last post, Devilin, I need to reply (again)...
quote:We don't want you gone here, if you think that, though. You would've been banned long ago if that was the case...
Originally posted by Devilin
Opps forgot to turn of email notification, last post honest
quote:If you mean the getthefacts-page, no you didn't come here for links. But we offered it as an digested overview of some facts, to answer all the hard rumours that are out there. Despite you said you wanted to put the views of all the parties on your page, you declined it. Fine, your loss (in our opinion). No harm done...
Originally posted by Devilin
Did I come here looking for links ? when you have your own uninstall guide, think about it
quote:Yes, I do think so. You said yourself that you wanted to check if the page was ok and asked if the uninstall routine was correct. But, nothing wrong in asking for approval of course...
Originally posted by Devilin
Did I come here looking for approval, again think about it
quote:I don't get this point realy. Do you mean the graphics are the most important part? In that case, maybe you are correct. But the text accompanying graphics is actually as important though...
Originally posted by Devilin
And while you've thinking about it, consider this, its a high graphic content page
"A picture says thousand words", but a picture with a correct explaination tells the whole story...
quote:Turn that around....
Originally posted by Devilin
? So why did I come here, why have I built an entire site dedicated to helping people ?, profit? The ads I run pay for the site, and creates enough revenue to produce another site, and what's the other site about, helping people, and a bit of fun
Why do you think we are here? This forum counts thousands and thousands of members. People who are enthiousiastic MSN Messenger users. We are here to help them. This forum is created as the helpline of the most popular addon of MSN Messenger in the world. We wouldn't had so much members and users of Messenger Plus! (millions and millions of people) if we are full of "BS".
This forum is among the biggest Messenger-related forums in the world. Go take a look at comminuties like mess.be, msnfanatic, etc... and you'll see that almost all people will agree with "our" facts (which you call biased opinions).
In the end we both want the same thing. To inform and help other people. We are not here to play the boogie-man...
quote:Because you enjoy it doing that. Again, turn that around. It is the same for us. Nobody on this forum (and the other major forums) gets payed, nobody!
Originally posted by Devilin
So why do I spend my valuable time helping people ? again think about it
The only gratitude we get is the knowledge that with our help people understand better how things work and that they, after our help, can work out the things for themself with common sense. In our case that's mainly Messenger Plus!....
In our case, the only person that has some "cache" revenue is Patchou, the creator of all this. Who added an addware sponsor to cover for all the expenses that this major forum, the website, the dedicated server, etc... brings.
Again, if we were the boogie-man (as some sites claim) then why have we so many members and why are there so many people who use Plus! every day. If a program is bad, I can assure you that it wont have much users.
We do it for the good feeling of helping people out. Same as you...
quote:I can easly take this paragraph as offensive as we discussed the alternatives on a serious level, only you didn't wanted to grasp that and hided behind the same hollow arguments over and over again.
Originally posted by Devilin
If somebody wishes to discuss possible alterations, on a serious level, use my form, I'll arrange a neutral forum--- the offer is there, although I doubt it will be taken up---
If you like to continue ranting, please continue below this post
Also, don't hold it against us that we (at least I) don't believe in the "neutral" forum of yours anymore, after reading this thread. I, personaly, even offered you my time and help and assistance with your site to make it more professional (without changing the things you've put up there, even if they were incorrect IMO). I think that was a token of my seriousness and ability to stay neutral. If you think otherwise, your loss and no problem. But don't go posting that we aren't serieus and didn't try to discuss alternatives....
quote:We sure will. And for you the same if you decide to leave us...
Originally posted by Devilin
Have fun all
RE: final negotiations,Devilin the uninstall page by f1d0d1d08989 on 12-07-2004 at 04:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Opps forgot to turn of email notification, last post honest
Firstly, I doubt that you will not even come and see what our reaction will be. Although you may not log in and post anything, but you will come here as a Guest and see what the people here reply to you.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
I entered the Lions den, to poke the lion, and to get some answers,
What started, as healthy debate, arguments, and counter arguments, resulted in me changing parts of my page, which I believe was healthy and productive,------ but this ended up becoming a petty and bickering non discussion, I myself must take a large proportion of the blame for this, I apologize for this, anyway any continued discussion on this forum, obviously isn't useful or helpful, for anybody
What do you mean by 'poking the lion'? You feel that we are those people who cant listen to opinions and suggestions from other people, and will start bickering about it after someone leave a opinion, dont you?
We are not this kind of people, I can say. Although I registered only this month, but I have been following the forums for about a year or so, signing in as Guest. As far as I remembered, nobody here is like you. Maybe you can say that I am bickering with you now. And you cant be bothered to deal with all the things that I said here. But, think about yourself first.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Did I come here looking for approval, again think about it
If you didnt come and look for approval, why did you start this thread in the first place? You mean you are the kind of person who likes to do something, then say that you didnt do in later? You can just ignore what we have said and continue with your uninstall page, and need not continue 'bickering' with us, just like what you have said.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
? So why did I come here, why have I built an entire site dedicated to helping people ?, profit? The ads I run pay for the site, and creates enough revenue to produce another site, and what's the other site about, helping people, and a bit of fun
So why do I spend my valuable time helping people ? again think about it
Dont we help each other here too? Dont our time is valuable? We have our own lives too. And we help each other out here, solving each other's problems, for nothing. Its just the happiness that I can help others to get rid of his or her problems.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
If somebody wishes to discuss possible alterations, on a serious level, use my form, I'll arrange a neutral forum--- the offer is there, although I doubt it will be taken up---
If you like to continue ranting, please continue below this post
I dont think that anyone here wish to continue talking to you. Its pointless, because you dont change. There will be not results, even after two threads, one with 32 replies, and this, 24 replies, including mine.
Do you know why I wanted to continue posting? Its because I want to tell you what I feel, even though you may not read this, which I doubt.
quote:
Originally posted by Devilin
Have fun all
I am having great fun, whether you are here or not.