Offical 3.50 Torrent - Printable Version
-Shoutbox (https://shoutbox.menthix.net)
+-- Forum: MsgHelp Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=58)
+--- Forum: Messenger Plus! for Live Messenger (/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+---- Forum: WLM Plus! General (/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+----- Thread: Offical 3.50 Torrent (/showthread.php?tid=40254)
Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:16 PM
Obviously soon after it's release msgplsus will get put up on most of the popular torrent sites, but why doesn't Patchou spread it this way to begin with? Surely everyone in the world trying to download a 5kb file is a lot easier than downloading a several mb file. It's just a suggestion, but I think having a torrent for 3.50 from the beginning will help everyone upgrade a lot quicker and easier. Thanks for your hard work Patchou 
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by spokes on 03-16-2005 at 08:17 PM
you still have to download a several MB file
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Anubis on 03-16-2005 at 08:19 PM
Is it really to much trouble just to visit the main site and download it? It'll spread to other sources sooner or later anyway...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:21 PM
It will, but not quick enough, and the downloads will be damn slow and stretch poor Patchous server. Torrents are the future 
accept it 
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Weyzza on 03-16-2005 at 08:21 PM
quote:It is always recommended to download MsgPlus from the main site to prevent tampered Plus!.
Originally posted by mattm591
Obviously soon after it's release msgplsus will get put up on most of the popular torrent sites, but why doesn't Patchou spread it this way to begin with? Surely everyone in the world trying to download a 5kb file is a lot easier than downloading a several mb file. It's just a suggestion, but I think having a torrent for 3.50 from the beginning will help everyone upgrade a lot quicker and easier. Thanks for your hard work Patchou
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by WDZ on 03-16-2005 at 08:21 PM
That might be a cool idea... the only issue that comes to mind is: what tracker to use?
There are some free & open ones, but in my experience, they are often slow and unreliable. Also, it's probably a little too late to start setting up our own tracker.
quote:But not from msgplus.net. You download it from your peers (P2P).
Originally posted by spokes
you still have to download a several MB file
quote:BitTorrent has very good integrity checking. The only thing to worry about is where you got the .torrent file from, and who made it. Someone like me could make it...
Originally posted by thekid
It is always recommended to download MsgPlus from the main site to prevent tampered Plus!.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:23 PM
The tracker a torrent site I will not mention in case it's against rules uses is great (http://tracker.prq.to/announce). As for thekid thats why you want it from Patchou.. not just offa some random site.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by WDZ on 03-16-2005 at 08:24 PM
quote:That's the most popular one, and it's pretty unreliable. You often can't connect right away and it can be quite frustrating.
Originally posted by mattm591
http://tracker.prq.to/announce
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:25 PM
How about PiratesofUK?
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by andrey on 03-16-2005 at 08:28 PM
quote:torrents are the past, they are (slow), insecure and will probably disapear soon, due to MPAA and RIAA
Originally posted by mattm591
Torrents are the future accept it
And for the tracker, maybe there's a good one listed on http://thebeehive.info
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:31 PM
Well you had 1 good point
quote:However, torrents aren't the past.. new sites are made faster than the MPAA and RIAA shut them down.. there efforts are pointless. Also torrents have great uses legally as well with game demos being quickly shared using them now by big name game demo sites. The legal uses for torrents are endless and I'm sure more and more sites will soon begin distributing their releases and updates using it.
And for the tracker, maybe there's a good one listed on http://thebeehive.info
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Dempsey on 03-16-2005 at 08:36 PM
Linux is most useful for larger files, such as Linux distros but is great for sharing the load of smaller files, when there a great demeand for it, as there will be for the new Plus!
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 08:47 PM
I can assure you that spreading Plus! via P2P is NOT a good way at all!!!
1) Speeds the spreading? NO, the user has to know it exist before he can download something. So no benefit from here...
2) P2P are FULL, and I repeat FULL of virusses. You never know if the file you're downloading is virus-free...
3) Speeds up the downloading? NO, you still have to download the same amount of bytes
4) Convenience? NO, the user need to have a P2P client in order to be able to download anything from it...
5) Download speed? NO, downloading from P2P is far slower then downloading from a site directly...
6) Available latest version? NO, on P2P there is no way to control/check what the latest version is...
7) User information/convenience/related info/etc...? NO, there is no way that you can replace the informative original website with a P2P download...
and I can go on and on...
Although Messenger Plus! is free, and there is no restricting on mirroring the file. It is NOT recommended to put it everywhere for download. In fact, it is a bad thing for the end user. There is a damn good reason why original websites exist. Because you can always be sure that they contain proper information that the user needs to know, are up to date, and often contain additional important links. All this can NOT be found on P2P networks (and even on other sites for that matter)...
Hence I ALWAYS say that _if_ you're going to spread the file yourself, ALWAYS include a direct link to the original homepage. (as you can guess this goes for websites too, even in general (eg: someone asks you about a certain product, don't give the person a direct link, rather link to the original main download site!))
As an experienced PC user, I simply hate sites and the P2P method, where they only give you the file, mirrored on their own site, without further explaination or link to the main site. If you're lucky, the program in question contains a link to the main site, but that means you have to install a possible out-dated, buggy, infected version first....
To go back to Plus! itself: since last year I'm monitoring/searching some P2P networks for the Plus! setup file. I can tell you that 95% of all the Plus! files offered are corrupted and can do damage to user PCs (because they are bad downloaded in the first place, contain virusses, are incomplete downloads, are tampered with, etc...). To give a nice example of how 'corrupted' the whole system is: every month I download +-100Mb of NEW Plus! setups which I hadn't before, only a handful of them are actually valid and untampered with and most of those are within an archive file which contains other and dodgy stuff. Only very occasionally I come across a decent untampered clean Plus! setup...
Conclussion: no, please do NOT put Plus! on P2P networks, this will by no means help "spread" Messenger Plus!. In fact, it will damage the reputation of Messenger Plus! as users don't have a clue if their download is valid, untampered, up to date.
If you want to help to spread Plus! then spread the link to the main site instead, nothing more!!!
PS: and torrents also don't solve a thing! a torrent can easly be tampered with or be based on a corrupted file as well, there is absolutely no difference between torrents and other P2P methods for that matter...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:50 PM
P2P????? BITTORRENT!!! BIG DIFF
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by andrey on 03-16-2005 at 08:52 PM
quote:No ? BitTorrent IS P2P. Just look under the "advanced" tab and you'll see the IPs of all people connected to the torrent --> unsecure !
Originally posted by mattm591
P2P????? BITTORRENT!!! BIG DIFF
Btw, good points cookie
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by WDZ on 03-16-2005 at 08:54 PM
Well, good argument Cookie, but some of your points don't seem to apply to this situation. We'd be using BitTorrent, not Gnutella/Kazaa or something dodgy like that, and the torrent file would probably only be hosted on this forum or the main site, where full details would be provided along with it. 
RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 08:55 PM
quote:You get faster speeds
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I can assure you that spreading Plus! via P2P is NOT a good way at all!!!
1) Speeds the spreading? NO, the user has to know it exist before he can download something. So no benefit from here...
quote:Bit torrent is not and i repeat NOT
2) P2P are FULL, and I repeat FULL of virusses. You never know if the file you're downloading is virus-free...
quote:But it's quicker cus bit torrent is faster than an overloaded server
3) Speeds up the downloading? NO, you still have to download the same amount of bytes
quote:Bit torrent app actually, and many do... those who don't can still get normal .exe.. saves some bandwidth on the several thousands that have it
4) Convenience? NO, the user need to have a P2P client in order to be able to download anything from it...
quote:On popular torrents I get speeds of up to 60 kb/s compared to 58 kb/s on uber fast Microsoft servers.
5) Download speed? NO, downloading from P2P is far slower then downloading from a site directly...
quote:There is if Patchou supplies the torrent
6) Available latest version? NO, on P2P there is no way to control/check what the latest version is...
quote:You can have it as well
7) User information/convenience/related info/etc...? NO, there is no way that you can replace the informative original website with a P2P download...
quote:Well you better cus I proved ALL those points wrong
and I can go on and on...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 09:00 PM
People, NO, torrents are as insecure as any other means!!!! Don't be fooled.
* The files can still be hosted anywhere...
* If my PC is infected with a virus and I have no idea about it (actually even _if_ I know about it, I could easly do this on purpose to harm Plus!), I still can make a torrent file, people will not see/investigate the difference...
* etc...
Providing a torrent is by no means any more secure then pure P2P methods like Kazaa.... !!!
RE: RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Millenium_edition on 03-16-2005 at 09:01 PM
quote:from what i remember, you don't
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:You get faster speeds
Originally posted by CookieRevised
I can assure you that spreading Plus! via P2P is NOT a good way at all!!!
1) Speeds the spreading? NO, the user has to know it exist before he can download something. So no benefit from here...
quote:you want me to put one on it now?quote:Bit torrent is not and i repeat NOT
2) P2P are FULL, and I repeat FULL of virusses. You never know if the file you're downloading is virus-free...
quote:not if you never upload anythingquote:But it's quicker cus bit torrent is faster than an overloaded server
3) Speeds up the downloading? NO, you still have to download the same amount of bytes
quote:bandwidth ain't a problem, but it might on the client-side, which means bittorrent downloads will be slow as hell. (if the client doesn't upload)quote:Bit torrent app actually, and many do... those who don't can still get normal .exe.. saves some bandwidth on the several thousands that have it
4) Convenience? NO, the user need to have a P2P client in order to be able to download anything from it...
oh and people want plus!, not some other application.
[qote]
quote:On popular torrents I get speeds of up to 60 kb/s compared to 58 kb/s on uber fast Microsoft servers.
5) Download speed? NO, downloading from P2P is far slower then downloading from a site directly...
heard of a download accelerator?
quote:anyone can supply a torrent and say it's msgplus.quote:There is if Patchou supplies the torrent
6) Available latest version? NO, on P2P there is no way to control/check what the latest version is...
quote:others can just put their own fakesquote:You can have it as well
7) User information/convenience/related info/etc...? NO, there is no way that you can replace the informative original website with a P2P download...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:05 PM
Lol now your just being silly... bittorrent is an extremley good method of sharing files. If many people are seeding a file (which happens on the big legal ones) then your speeds are going to be reaching your maximum possible. Viruses aren't found on bittorrent sites because it's a nice friendly system.. and also because the sites are moderated 
If Patchou is providing the torrent from msgplus.net then it's obviously not a virus so say goodbye to that argument. If people have bittorrent already then they can get the torrent and save bandwidth. If they don't then they can download the .exe. You can put up a torrent and you'll see it will be incredibly popular incredibly fast.
One last point.. downloadaccelerator = spyware ridden rubbish that does nothing
RE: RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 09:12 PM
quote:I'm not talking about download speed here, but about the speed of spreading.
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:You get faster speeds
Originally posted by CookieRevised
1) Speeds the spreading? NO, the user has to know it exist before he can download something. So no benefit from here...
quote:Think again... Bittorrent has a bit less virus infected stuff, but is by no means virusfree and still has many many virusses...
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:Bit torrent is not and i repeat NOT..
Originally posted by CookieRevised
2) P2P are FULL, and I repeat FULL of virusses. You never know if the file you're downloading is virus-free...
quote:No, bittorrent is at best as fast, but in way faster. In fact, it often is much more slower.
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:But it's quicker cus bit torrent is faster than an overloaded server
Originally posted by CookieRevised
3) Speeds up the downloading? NO, you still have to download the same amount of bytes
quote:P2P programs are not as widespread as you might think. It is not because all your friends have them and you all enjoy downloading warez, that the whole world has them.
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:Bit torrent app actually, and many do... those who don't can still get normal .exe.. saves some bandwidth on the several thousands that have it
Originally posted by CookieRevised
4) Convenience? NO, the user need to have a P2P client in order to be able to download anything from it...
quote:Like I said above, that is the same speed! When you download something from someone else, you're bound to the upload speed of that person/server. If you download directly from the original main source, you are only bound by your own download speed. Also don't compare 1 server with the other, each has his own upload/download limits. But you can NEVER download anything faster then your own download speed. If you think you do, you are comparing the wrong things. eg: you could download a file from a torrent network at 100Kb because you have 2 sources to download from. When you would download that same file from its original source you most likely will have +100Kb in the first place... Again, this is a hard rumour that P2P networks would be faster.
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:On popular torrents I get speeds of up to 60 kb/s compared to 58 kb/s on uber fast Microsoft servers.
Originally posted by CookieRevised
5) Download speed? NO, downloading from P2P is far slower then downloading from a site directly...
quote:so???? everybody can supply a torrent...
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:There is if Patchou supplies the torrent
Originally posted by CookieRevised
6) Available latest version? NO, on P2P there is no way to control/check what the latest version is...
quote:No you can not
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:You can have it as well
Originally posted by CookieRevised
7) User information/convenience/related info/etc...? NO, there is no way that you can replace the informative original website with a P2P download...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:15 PM
??? Do you not understand what my point is.. their should be an offical torrent to get from the msgplus site.. that way you know it's not a virus... as for me and my friends being the world Over 2 million people used suprnova.. more than that have bittorrent. Loadsa people use it to download Linux builds, game demos and much more.... don;t be so close minded
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 09:19 PM
quote:Do you not understand that everybody can fake an official messenger plus! torrent
Originally posted by mattm591
??? Do you not understand what my point is.. their should be an offical torrent to get from the msgplus site..
And I can assure you that I'm by no means close minded. I know exactly what I'm talking about, instead of relaying on hard rumours and sayings.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:20 PM
Yes.. and everyone can put it up at www.msgplus.net 
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by L. Coyote on 03-16-2005 at 09:21 PM
Don't you understand anything of what you're being told?
The idea is to keep MsgPlus!'s name clean, not make everyone hate it. And P2P stuff are bound to make some users angry.
And, btw, people use P2P to get big files (or warez), the only small files you can get are old programs or sound files (MP3, etc.). It's pretty dumb to use a P2P for MsgPlus! when it's only 3MB and it's completely free.
Yeah, it could be good for the server, but then again, no one would look for a file like that in P2Ps. And that's why there's a main site with mirrors and all. Because people don't go through the trouble of getting a P2P program and searching and waiting to download a free, 3MB program. 
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:22 PM
Lol.. deary me.... P2p??? BIT TORRENT... get a program??? no.. its for people who already have it (over 2 mil ringin ne bells).. give it a bad name?? yeah like it gave a bad name 2 linux and the nfsug2 demo???
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 09:24 PM
Please, please, please, pleaaaaaase,
do understand that people who download from P2P do NOT know the official site(s) from the files they download and that everybody can fake it....
And this is not all "if this", "if that", it is already happening... Like I said before, don't go telling me what people download and upload on P2P networks concearning Plus! as I'm monitoring several networks for over a year now...
I hate to say this, but first learn more about how the system works.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:26 PM
Lol.. I know jack shit about how P2P works.. well a lil more than that 2 be honest.. howeva I know a hellava lot about P2P.. hellava lot more than u.. apparently AND STOP SAYIN P2P THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by ZrednaZ on 03-16-2005 at 09:26 PM
No question that BitTorrent is an extremely good p2p protocol compared to Kazaa and stuff like that... It's pretty secure because the program runs integrity checks all the time, so any 'bad' data is automatically discarded (dunno if this would work very well on such a small file though???).
But...
1) It usually takes a while for transfers to reach a decent speed.
2) People aren't gonna bother to open their clients just to download 4 MB...
So even thought BitTorrent is brilliant for larger files, I think it would seem a bit ridiculous to use it for MsgPlus... Also considering that several people on the forums set up mirrors every time.
quote:So you'd define BitTorrent as a server to peer transfer system? I can assure you it's p2p
Originally posted by mattm591
AND STOP SAYIN P2P THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by andrey on 03-16-2005 at 09:27 PM
quote:BitTorrent IS P2P !!
Originally posted by mattm591
AND STOP SAYIN P2P THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
You obviously don't understand shit about it.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:28 PM
Hmm, well it don't take me too long.. but diff people have diff experiences with bit torrent. And I get what your saying about the size thing.. but initally it might be useful because I bet the servers will be very heavily overloaded.
quote:Bit torrent is only P2P in the sense that your connecting to peers. The way a P2P program works and bittorrent are completley different and the user experience is completley dffernet. You cannot call bittorrent P2P because it's so incredibly different
Originally posted by andrey
quote:BitTorrent IS P2P !!
Originally posted by mattm591
AND STOP SAYIN P2P THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
You obviously don't understand shit about it.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 09:36 PM
*sigh* it is exactly the same....
To conclude, sorry if you feel attacked. If you happen to have other ideas, that's up to you, but facts are facts.
We are not here to give people false information, in fact we are here to give people the correct info, despite what they thought was true.
Personaly and for all the above reasons, I do not think putting the new Plus! on a P2P, or bittorrent
, is a good idea and in fact will do damage to Plus! (and this is no fable, it does already with the existing older files available). This isn't an issue of convenience, this is an issue of reputation and security.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:42 PM
quote:What are you on about.. from the start everything you've said about bit torrent was false.
We are not here to give people false information, in fact we are here to give people the correct info, despite what they thought was true.
I'm not asking you to 'put' it on bit torrent. I'm asking you to make a torrent so that those who want to can feel safe downloading msgplus fast, and not be worried about overloaded servers.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Purity on 03-16-2005 at 09:46 PM
quote:Your still sharing files with your peers...
Originally posted by mattm591
Bit torrent is only P2P in the sense that your connecting to peers. The way a P2P program works and bittorrent are completley different and the user experience is completley dffernet. You cannot call bittorrent P2P because it's so incredibly different
This thread is stupid....
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:47 PM
Please understand bittorrent before posting Purity
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by albert on 03-16-2005 at 09:49 PM
well i think plus! should stay on the main website.. so manystuff going on with torrents.. ppl could including other files ans upload it... it could loose reputation cuz of this.. i think its better to keepp it the way it is
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by L. Coyote on 03-16-2005 at 09:51 PM
quote:Amen!
Originally posted by Purity
This thread is stupid....
Btw, most people don't even care about the servers. They just download things, because they think it'll be there forever. Many people don't know how things work. Most MsgPlus! users are new or uneducated to computers or Internet, anyway.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Ahmad on 03-16-2005 at 09:52 PM
quote:That is what a "Mirror" is for though, hey?
Originally posted by mattm591
but initally it might be useful because I bet the servers will be very heavily overloaded.
Plus CookieRevised is right about the reputation/security factor (if not everything else as well).
Issue Closed IMO.
Edit: Actually I don't think bandwidth was an issue to begin with.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-16-2005 at 09:55 PM
Hmm, yeah well mirror is another alternative.. i dont mnind if you dont want bittorrent.. its just the reasons given are so uneducated
RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by ZrednaZ on 03-16-2005 at 09:58 PM
quote:Why do u keep saying bittorrent isn't p2p? Even though it differs a great deal from other protocols, it's still p2p...
Originally posted by mattm591
Please understand bittorrent before posting Purity
Look at this online definition of the word 'bittorrent' if u still won't believe us. Notice it says 'peer-to-peer' in there somwhere.. quote:I don't see why.. I've seen several respected sites implement bittorrent as a method of file transfer over the last few years. When saying that BT would harm MsgPlus' reputation, you're automatically assuming that someone WILL attempt to (and succeed in) spreading a virus (which I'm however not saying would be impossible when dealing with such a small file)...
Originally posted by lp15
it could loose reputation cuz of this.. i think its better to keepp it the way it is
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by albert on 03-16-2005 at 10:03 PM
quote:
I don't see why.. I've seen several respected sites implement bittorrent as a method of file transfer over the last few years. When saying that BT would harm MsgPlus' reputation, you're automatically assuming that someone WILL attempt to (and succeed in) spreading a virus (which I'm however not saying would be impossible when dealing with such a small file)...
haven't you realized you usually find the same torrent 3 times, only with different names..? Usually the files are the same, only the notepad text is different. But sometimes there a porn links added, or wte.. wouldn't that affect the product's reputation.. ? I mean.. maybe it won't happen.. but why take a risk to let it..??!
quote:
i first looked at this thread mattm59 had 9 posts, now hes on 26
Spokes.. don't tell me your counting posts now..
![[Image: question.gif]](http://shoutbox.menthix.net/images/smilies/question.gif)
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by KeyStorm on 03-16-2005 at 10:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
People, NO, torrents are as insecure as any other means!!!! Don't be fooled.
* The files can still be hosted anywhere...
* If my PC is infected with a virus and I have no idea about it (actually even _if_ I know about it, I could easly do this on purpose to harm Plus!), I still can make a torrent file, people will not see/investigate the difference...
* etc...
Providing a torrent is by no means any more secure then pure P2P methods like Kazaa.... !!!
As far as I can tell the torrent link, and by any purpose the download, is based upon an md4/5 hash of the complete file, so there can't be a faked part of it if the hash you download is the hash an official source provides (which Patchou himself or any admin around has calculated using the original binary). You only can download parts of the file that match the hash set by the .torrent file. And if the .torrent file is provided in the official server, there is no way to fake it.
There may be other .torrent's with fakes/viruses/trojans/porn around, but those .torrent's weren't, aren't and won't be THE official .torrent provided by msgplus.net.
However, you can always download from the server. The new MP! servers are capable of a uberhigh bw and have no transfer limit (at least appreciable), so it doesn't make much sense to use an alternative way to get a file (mainly if it's only a couple of MB file). However, this alternative could be interesting when it's time to save some server money or to make the download faster (if the file is popular enough) than if pulled from the server.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Zephyr on 03-16-2005 at 10:40 PM
I don't actually see anything wrong with what mattm59 is saying. The actual setup for messenger plus is put on msgplus.net, so why can't a torrent file. People will only download the torrent file from msgplus.net so there will be no issue of it being faulty or with a virus. As has already been mentioned in this thread, there are lots of other messenger plus files going round on torrent programs so this is already happenning. If a torrent file was put on the actual website then everyone can download it from there and there would be no problem.
However, I would still download the .exe setup from the website as it is easier in my opinion.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 10:52 PM
quote:yes I know that, that isn't the issue. The issue is that everybody can fake an official torrent, and those who download most likely do _not_ know the difference, heck they even might not know an official torrent exists....
Originally posted by KeyStorm
As far as I can tell the torrent link, and by any purpose the download, is based upon an md4/5 hash of the complete file, so there can't be a faked part of it if the hash you download is the hash an official source provides (which Patchou himself or any admin around has calculated using the original binary). You only can download parts of the file that match the hash set by the .torrent file. And if the .torrent file is provided in the official server, there is no way to fake it.
There may be other .torrent's with fakes/viruses/trojans/porn around, but those .torrent's weren't, aren't and won't be THE official .torrent provided by msgplus.net.
Hence the reason why my folder with download Plus! setups from P2P networks are full of virusses, corrupted files, fakes (yes many are deliberate!!!), etc...
quote:no they will not... any site can put up/spread a torrent which is fake. If someone sees a torrent labeled Messenger Plus!, he isn't going to search for the official site first to check if the torrent is a fake or not, he is going to run/download the torrent immediatly. Also, if they would go to msgplus.net to get the correct torrent, why on earth wont they download the setup directly from it in the first place? this doesn't make sense
Originally posted by monster.rat
I don't actually see anything wrong with what mattm59 is saying. The actual setup for messenger plus is put on msgplus.net, so why can't a torrent file. People will only download the torrent file from msgplus.net
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Zephyr on 03-16-2005 at 10:57 PM
Cookie, i think what is being suggested is that an OFFICIAL torrent file is put on hte OFFICIAL website. If what you are saying is right, then there are already loads of corrupted msg plus files with viruses so this would give people who are downloading these corrupted files a way of being sure about what they are downloading if they get it officially.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Robinski on 03-16-2005 at 11:00 PM
I hope to see a Good download location or Torrent when I wake up tomorrow
PS.
Only 5 Hours to wait for the new MsgPlus!
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 11:00 PM
quote:that's exactly what I'm saying in several posts already in this thread....
Originally posted by monster.rat
Cookie, i think what is being suggested is that an OFFICIAL torrent file is put on hte OFFICIAL website. If what you are saying is right, then there are already loads of corrupted msg plus files with viruses
quote:I know what you (and the others) mean, but this will make absolutely no difference, believe me.... The official one would be 1 out of hundreds of fakes.
Originally posted by monster.rat
so this would give people who are downloading these corrupted files a way of being sure about what they are downloading if they get it officially.
And again, if they want to check if their torrent is valid on the msgplus.net server, they might as well directly download the setup from there as they are already on msgplus.net...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Zephyr on 03-16-2005 at 11:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
that's exactly what I'm saying in several posts already in this thread....
I know. What i'm saying is that if this is happening already, then what difference will making an official torrent make?
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by albert on 03-16-2005 at 11:04 PM
ye well as I can read ppl are saying there should be an official torrent on the official msgplus! website.. i think thats a cool idea.. i mean rlly cool 
no worries about fake torrents.. well not on the site, thats for sure.. and some mirrors wouldnt be such a bad idea too
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Zephyr on 03-16-2005 at 11:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
And again, if they want to check if their torrent is valid on the msgplus.net server, they might as well directly download the setup from there as they are already on msgplus.net...
I agree with you on this as i said i would not use the torrent. I was just pointing out that the problem of viruses and corrupted files would not change if a torrent was put on the site.
People would just use the way they have bcome accustomed to.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by KeyStorm on 03-16-2005 at 11:17 PM
See http://www.ubuntulinux.org and read the notice about Ubuntu 5.04-preview
There it makes much sense to use torrents, since you are downloading CD-images and that's a high cost for bandwith. If you use BitTorrent as a download manager for software you get from editors' websites, than it's just perfect. Another different case is if you use to visit links-repositories or use the search engine integrated in some P2P clients from where you can't realise which files are official, which files are copies from the originals (like zipped the original file, etc.) and which files are plain fakes.
In our particular case, msgplus.net doesn't actually need to use BitTorrent because it can offer as much bw as your peers would. And the file to download is really small compared to the Ubuntu-Linux CD-images.
This is for me the main reason not to put up a torrent download for MP!
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 11:23 PM
There is also the factor that whenever an official torrent is available, people _will_ attempt (and succeed) in creating fakes, just to countradict it, thus increasing the number of fakes.
And the users will not know that those are fake. At least most user will not, as the minority of others indeed will compare different torrents before downloading. But remember that Plus! is used mostly by people who only know how to turn on their computer so to speak, they will not know how to search for proper official stuff.
You need to look at the whole picture, not at "bittorrent is cool because company X provides his big product Y on it"
But whatever guys,
I only say what I experienced for more then the last year on various networks and from what I know from other officaly distributed torrent packages. I know how 'fakers' think and how they find it cool to make fakes and I know how easy it is to spread something corrupted (I've done the same in the past).
Do as you please, but if I find an increasing amount of fake stuff (other and more then the useual) I know what the cause was ...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by riahc4 on 03-16-2005 at 11:23 PM
MsgPlus + Bittorrent = Not a good idea.
Ive had fights with Cookie before but I have to give it to him bottoms down on this one. Too many fakes/viruses/manipulated torrents/files. BitTorrent isnt gonna go very far in the future because IPs can easy be seen. Keep it on Messenger Plus! servers and official/trusted mirrors and all should be fine.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Zephyr on 03-16-2005 at 11:33 PM
It probably is a bad idea. I haven't really had any experience of torrent fakers so Cookie's thoughts are probably more reliable than mine.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by KeyStorm on 03-16-2005 at 11:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
There is also the factor that whenever an official torrent is available, people _will_ attempt (and succeed) in creating fakes, just to countradict it, thus increasing the number of fakes. And the users will not know that those are fake.
And then the faker will publish that fake to a link-repository (no faker is famous enough to have people visiting their site and downloading fakes, at least that I knew). After that some people will download and will probably notice it (say... after seing an old version or a virus). Those will report that file/hash to the website that published that. If the webmasters are honest, they'll remove the link, if not, they won't. However, if I as Messenger user want to download something about messenger I'll go to mess.be and related sites. Their webmasters won't put up a fake, because it will cause a lot of criticism and the visitors will decrease. They will most probably put the original torrent.
But still: fakers can upload the faked file and pretend they are mirroring Messenger Plus! in w/e communities/channels. Fakes find their way to the surface any way, the only way to avoid it is to use common sense (visiting famous messenger related sites and/or the official site) to find trustworthy sources.
However, and I repeat, I don't support the idea anyway.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by albert on 03-16-2005 at 11:38 PM
well look i get back to my point.. i think a torrent would be useful if and only if it's an official one put on the site.. of course some ppl might take it, modifiate it and put it on other torrents website.. but that happens with msn messenger, ppl should know already.. and I personally dunno why ppl would need a torrent.. i mean.. it's a freeware.. why not just staying on the website link? maybe more mirrors would do the job if it's only about the speed of download..
what y'all think?
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-16-2005 at 11:51 PM
quote:You can't control what other people do. If this was an ideal world and there was no way that fakes can be made, and people don't fake stuff just for the kick out of it, then yes it would be nice to have it. Unfortunatly, this isn't an ideal world....
Originally posted by lp15
i think a torrent would be useful if and only if it's an official one put on the site.
quote:Exactly my point! People know where to download their leaks, but they don't know where to download the official version when they have a problem. Don't believe me? See IRC and all the other forums on techstuff in the world, I know I came across many... This only proofs that the vast majority (of msn messenger user, thus being young people who don't know much about PC's) just download what they are told from friends and what is "cool". They don't bother searching for official stuff or whatever, as they should do....
Originally posted by lp15
but that happens with msn messenger, ppl should know already..
Do not look at the problem in your, knowledgable, way. But look at it from the point of view of a 'n00b' (as that is what most msn users are): If you see "cool download this, new Plus! version 4.0, add cool stuff to messenger" you aren't going to bother to check the official site (which you don't know anyways).
And because this isn't an ideal world, providing something official, will always go together with people who want to fake/crack/whatever it...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by aNILEator on 03-17-2005 at 12:36 AM
serious dude P2P means peer-2-peer (or pay-2-play) how do you think bitTorrent works then?
you (a peer) upload to another bloke (another peer) so the transfer is Peer-2-Peer
sheesh.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-17-2005 at 06:48 AM
P2P may have some similarities to bit torrent but they're two ENTIRELY different things and you shouldn't confuse the two. Cookie is incredibly sceptical because he uses P2P and possibly eXeem. He may even use some of tghe tacky torrent sites, like torrentspy. However if he bothered to look on the sites which are popular and used by the clever majority he would see that torrents and viruses do not mix and if they do are removed almost instantly. I started this originally because I thought there was a bandwidth problem after reading some over posts, but as there isn't I agree bit torrent isn't necessary... but for that reason and that reason alone. ALL of cookies points are retarded and make absoloutley no sense. As for this rubbish about fakes and viruses.. I think DJCrazyMonkey sums it up nicely...
Would you download the .exe of a program from a dodgy site? Hell no. Then why get the torrent from there either? How many people don't get Msgplus from the official site anyway?
If an offical torrent was offered (and i agree it seems unecessary) then why get a fake? If anything you should support it cookie so that less fakes are made and more get the offical torrent.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Chestah on 03-17-2005 at 07:34 AM
Trust me i doubt Cookie uses eXeem based on his previous comments
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-17-2005 at 02:51 PM
quote:mattm591, as for the flame towards me:
Originally posted by mattm591
ALL of cookies points are retarded and make absoloutley no sense.
I'm not an retarded 28 year old newb PC user with a bad reputation of stating crap. I'm using computers since I was 5, and the net since it become popular in the 80's. I have a very high experience in a very wide field of the IT bussiness and know what I'm talking about.
quote:DJCrazyMonkey is wrong:
Originally posted by mattm591
As for this rubbish about fakes and viruses.. I think DJCrazyMonkey sums it up nicely...
Would you download the .exe of a program from a dodgy site? Hell no. Then why get the torrent from there either? How many people don't get Msgplus from the official site anyway?
Would you download the .exe of a program from a dodgy site? Hell no.
=> Even with bittorrent there is no control on where people download their exe's from!!! In fact, bittorrent is P2P (for the very last time ffs), meaning you download from a peer, not a website, that's the whole point of bittorrent and other P2P methods. It is quite possible that they are downloading a fake setup via a fake torrent (although with bittorrent this chance is a very small bit less then other P2P methods as it is somewhat 'more controlled', but still is very very high)
How many people don't get Msgplus from the official site anyway?
=> A whole lot!!!!! Browse the web to the numerous messenger related sites and check the download counts on their mirrors...
quote:People do NOT know if it is fake or not in the first place. Why can't you understand that? And offering something legal will always bring other people on the idea to corrupt it and try to spread that. This is not some rubbish, this is what is happening already right now (and always has happened).
Originally posted by mattm591
If an offical torrent was offered (and i agree it seems unecessary) then why get a fake?
quote:Read and understand what I have said previously here. and:
Originally posted by mattm591
If anything you should support it cookie so that less fakes are made and more get the offical torrent.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
There is also the factor that whenever an official torrent is available, people _will_ attempt (and succeed) in creating fakes, just to countradict it, thus increasing the number of fakes.
------------
And may I conlcude with:
quote:I already found two FAKE versions of the new 3.50... This exactly proofs my point!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Do as you please, but if I find an increasing amount of fake stuff (other and more then the useual) I know what the cause was...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-17-2005 at 04:01 PM
Lol... you just don't seem to be able to change your ideas because of your bad experiences.. ah well... can't be bothered to argue with you..
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by L. Coyote on 03-17-2005 at 04:18 PM
quote:lol, you always want to have the last word, huh?
Originally posted by mattm591
Lol... you just don't seem to be able to change your ideas because of your bad experiences.. ah well... can't be bothered to argue with you..
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by KhalidBoussouara on 03-17-2005 at 11:45 PM
What is the difference between creating a fake torrent and a fake exe file? Not much.
If a user trusts the official site for exe files then the site is just as trustworthy for torrents. Patchou can create an official torrent for the installation file. Peers can send any data they want to other peers on a torrent. However this fake data will never make it into the finished download. It does this by calculcating hashes of portions of the file and stores them in the torrent file. When the user downloads a block of data it calculates the hash of the block. If it does not match the hash in the torrent it is discarded.
If Patchou creates a torrent of Messenger Plus then it will be a valid torrent which you can trust. How will you know which one was created by Patchou? It will be on the official site.
If a user does not trust exe files which are not from the official site then surely they will not trust torrent files not from the official site?
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Purity on 03-17-2005 at 11:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mattm591
This thread is stupid....
You're full of your self....You think you understand bit torrents?
You're not smart for argueing with Cookie, I'm sure he knows alot more than you about, im not saying he's the smartest but hes knows what he's talking about....
Bit Torrent(s) are P2P You are still sharing it.
There wouldn't much of a point for an official bit torrent anyway>..
As for this lame ass thread, I don't see why you're making a big deal out of it....
RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by CookieRevised on 03-18-2005 at 12:14 AM
quote:yes but EVERYBODY CAN MAKE TORRENT FILES AND START TO SPREAD THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by KhalidBoussouara
If Patchou creates a torrent of Messenger Plus then it will be a valid torrent which you can trust.
quote:DUUUUH!... then why downloading via torrent in the first place...
Originally posted by KhalidBoussouara
How will you know which one was created by Patchou? It will be on the official site.
quote:There is no way in knowing if the file is fake or not!!! YOU know the official site, I know the official site, but totaly n00bs will not. For all they care is that http://www.messengerplus.net/ is official...
Originally posted by KhalidBoussouara
If a user does not trust exe files which are not from the official site then surely they will not trust torrent files not from the official site?
----------------------------
I have repeated everything already to many times, reread the thread as nothing new is said since a long time. If people fail to see how things work, then too bad...
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by ShawnZ on 03-18-2005 at 12:26 AM
quote:That's just because you have a slow internet connection. On Bittorrent i get like 80kb/s, but on `uber fast' microsoft servers, i can get my entire downstream bandwidth (nearly) at around 2~3mb/s.
On popular torrents I get speeds of up to 60 kb/s compared to 58 kb/s on uber fast Microsoft servers.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by reisyboy on 03-18-2005 at 07:46 AM
well although you all didnt seem to love the idea of a bit torrent link. As a mirror here is an eXeem link (Decenteralised Bit Torrent). Distributed form me so you know its real . Please remember though virus check it yourself to be safe, i have and know it to be safe. Do not download from other links that you do not know use verified hashes or links, but even then there is a risk. Make sure your virus scaners are uptodate to always be sure
Click Here for eXeem Link
RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by mattm591 on 03-18-2005 at 06:49 PM
quote:Lol just cus cookie has some high status on this little message board don't make him an all knowing power
Originally posted by Purity
You think you understand bit torrents?
You're not smart for argueing with Cookie, I'm sure he knows alot more than you about, im not saying he's the smartest but hes knows what he's talking about....
And you don't even know me do you f00l.
RE: RE: RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Veggie on 03-18-2005 at 06:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mattm591
quote:Lol just cus cookie has some high status on this little message board don't make him an all knowing power
Originally posted by Purity
You think you understand bit torrents?
You're not smart for argueing with Cookie, I'm sure he knows alot more than you about, im not saying he's the smartest but hes knows what he's talking about....
you have taken this far enough, what is your problem. listen to the people on this forum. They know what there talking about (well atleast cookie
) so just stop flaming, its just a waste of cyberspace.
RE: Offical 3.50 Torrent by Patchou on 03-19-2005 at 04:38 AM
Let's stop all these arguments now... I thank you for the idea but don't worry, the main msgplus.net server is more than capable of delivering the files for everybody, there's no need for other sources (that's also why there's no more official mirror page on msgplus.net except for simtel but that's another story ).