Should internet have a digital I.D.. - Printable Version
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Should internet have a digital I.D.. by CookieRevised on 03-29-2006 at 09:13 AM
Poll: Should internet have a digital I.D.. read post
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I see that many have voted for "no" in the poll about the internet ID.
I wonder how many truelly know what an digital internet ID is or how it could/will work.
Despite what Paperless let it seems, an digital internet ID is not a privacy invasion, and it is not a big-brother kind of thing.
For starters, a digital internet ID will not be used everywhere, only on a few selected places. There is no such thing as "that would identify anyone anywhere, like a forum, a game anything..." It simply doesn't work that way.
Saying
quote:gives a totally wrong picture of what a digital internet ID should be.
Originally posted by Paperless
Do you think Internet should have a digital I.D that would identify anyone anywhere, like a forum, a game anything... Imagine IP but in a more advanced way with even less privacy each person would have one so each person would need to be identified before using internet via some biometric reader.
If it was like that, nobody, even goverments, would be in favor...
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A digital internet ID pass is something certain people can use to be allowed on the internet, nothing more, nothing less. It does NOT reveal your ID at all. It is simply a pass. Think about parents who want to (rightfully) control the access of the internet for their little children.
Another way of use is that it is used on websites to login and to identify if you are a minor or not. Think about the chatrooms where pedophiles would lurk to hunt for minors (one of the major reasons why a digital internet ID is invented/in the makings/tested). A digital ID controlled chatroom would only allow minors on it for example. Again, there is no identity revealing at all; you would only know that there would not be any malicious adults lurking.
A digital internet ID will almost always only work as a more advanced and controlled way of logging in to something, just as you can log in into your own computer with a login name and password.
quote:This is not true.
Originally posted by Paperless
Internet would be impossible to use without it (if no one hacked it..).
So far for the theory, as a digital internet ID pass is still being tested and not much used (though many people actually already have one)...
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Hence why I think that poll is totally misguided and should at least have been an open poll where this can be discussed, because as it is now it totally misinforms people.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Pyroteq on 03-29-2006 at 11:00 AM
Now that you put it that way, Yes.
When i read the poll i thought "what a terrible idea" That would just take away your right of privacy..
But how would one, universal I.D per person work.. People could easily access thier parents I.D's, friends I.D's (provided they knew the password) and lie about thier age if they sign up for thier own without parental control..
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Kryptonate on 03-29-2006 at 11:10 AM
quote:the ID is a physical card with a chip on it, so it wouldn't be that easy to use as simply geussing a password
Originally posted by Scone
But how would one, universal I.D per person work.. People could easily access thier parents I.D's, friends I.D's (provided they knew the password) and lie about thier age if they sign up for thier own without parental control..
.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Pyroteq on 03-29-2006 at 11:12 AM
I Didnt realise that, i actually dont know anything about it.
Dosnt that defeat the purpose of having a family computer with one physical chip containing the details when you have various family members?
(Or would this include multipule ID Signitures to log-in to?)
RE: RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by CookieRevised on 03-29-2006 at 11:31 AM
quote:Reason why I started this thread because I think some others don't know what it exactly is either and voted on the wrong basis as Paperless gave the wrong impression/explanation of what it was.
Originally posted by Scone
I Didnt realise that, i actually dont know anything about it.
quote:The chip isn't inside the computer. The chip is inside the plastic credit card sized pass. The computer reads out the insierted card.
Originally posted by Scone
Dosnt that defeat the purpose of having a family computer with one physical chip containing the details when you have various family members?
The digital ID pass is like your normal pass or driving license. It works exactly the same as your bank card. Your bank card too contains your name, etc and you need that too to indentify you at a bank terminal. It is a way to indentify you as owning a bank account. Without the bank card you can't access your account on a bank terminal.
The digital internet ID is exactly the same. Each individual has one (or could have one, namely the children). Having a family computer is exactly what such passes could be used for for example; Parents can do whatever they want on the net. Children have only restricted access to the net (eg: no public or adult chatrooms).
Or vice versa, when you want access to some chatrooms you need to insert your internet ID card in the slot attached to your commputer. When the chatroom has verified that you are underage (or whatever) you can access it, still anonymously!
The digital internet ID isn't a login name and password, it is a physical plastic card, like your credit card.
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The internet ID card will make the internet a much safer place to be (mainly for children!!!) and does not mean you can't surf the net anonymously anymore.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Pyroteq on 03-29-2006 at 11:39 AM
Well that sounds like a decent idea then.. I dont see if happening on a wide scale though.
I mean you could issue them with every new PC, but then people loose them and all.. Parents would want to be able to control the content of thier children (e.g: some parents might not mind their children viewing sites related to violence while others will)
Can you link me to a source for this idea.. so i can read more about it?
RE: RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by CookieRevised on 03-29-2006 at 12:21 PM
quote:Yeah, its something which will take a long while....
Originally posted by Scone
Well that sounds like a decent idea then.. I dont see if happening on a wide scale though.
quote:No, they are issued per person. Probably by your local town hall or something.
Originally posted by Scone
I mean you could issue them with every new PC,
quote:That's only one possebility of the card. And those parent who don't mind, simply wouldn't install the "restrict access module" or whatever it is going to be.
Originally posted by Scone
Parents would want to be able to control the content of thier children (e.g: some parents might not mind their children viewing sites related to violence while others will)
The other main use of the card is to identify yourself (eg: as being minor or not) to some sites, so you would know for sure (as a minor) that you're talking to a minor.
Then there are a lot of other (smaller) uses to, think for example about signing documents or emails with your digital ID card so the recievers know it was you who wrote the document and it wasn't fake.
E-banking, E-goverment, etc... where you can use your ID card to sign in to. No need for those digital smartpasses, badges or whatever, etc.
Logging in to company networks, or even accessing building. No need for other passes any more, etc... only your electronical ID and your secret pin.
quote:Not directly as I have my info mostly from what I read in articles in magazines, newspapers, reviews and that sort of stuff... I need to google for an online source myself. I don't know the fine details of it either though.
Originally posted by Scone
Can you link me to a source for this idea.. so i can read more about it?
Though I know Microsoft has done some experiments with such id's in Belgium (and maybe Holland).
Also note that this digital Internet ID is currently already being integrated in the new ID card's in some countries (like Belgium) whenever you need to renew your ID card. So this digital internet ID is actually integrated in your personal ID card (compare it to the driving license in the States). As soon as enough people have it, companies will start making software so it can be used.
![[Image: identiteitskaart1401nbo.jpg]](http://www.standaard.be/Assets/Images_Upload/identiteitskaart1401nbo.jpg)
The electronical version of an Belgian ID card
For children (as the ID is only for 18+ of course), a special minor-version will be made ... at least that's the plan... if enough people start using it that is...
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Fanta on 03-29-2006 at 12:42 PM
I think it's a brilliant idea to be honest. They can't implement it fast enough. Specially where it concerns children, I think much more should be done to make sure they can surf the net safely, without being too restricting as a parent, children still learn by being stimulated to explore, so it's well needed that they can explore in a safe way.
When you get older, you often don't realise how dangerous the net can be for ten year olds for example. When you were younger, you were easy to be tricked and influenced in doing things. Kids are taught to obey adults, but on the internet they can't see who to listen to or not. Of course the parents are responsible, but often the parents aren't that computer illiterate either. Does the child have to suffer because of that? Thought so.
With an ID card, it'd be easier for parents and schools for example to restrict what the kids can see, or do. And hopefully it will be easier to educate parents about their responsibility if they don't have to have a fair amount of knowledge to protect their offspring on the internet, and less easy for the kid to bypass the restrictions placed upon them.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by .zero on 03-29-2006 at 04:25 PM
Why? It sounds like a great idea to me. I hope it gets implemented and used.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Plik on 03-29-2006 at 04:58 PM
Sounds like it envolves having to buy a card reader 
I agree with time, it's a waste of money, and it could be really easly abused :-\
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Adeptus on 03-29-2006 at 05:11 PM
CookieRevised,
We can debate whether such an ID card is a good idea or not, but you are clearly mistaken (or using your own personal definition of anonymity) here:
quote:
you need to insert your internet ID card in the slot attached to your commputer. When the chatroom has verified that you are underage (or whatever) you can access it, still anonymously!
There is nothing "anonymous" about that. The site has verified a government issued ID. It knows who you are and probably has logged that information. It may not necessarily display this information to other users, but your access is absolutely, positively not anonymous.
This may be appropriate for banking, online voting and similar uses, but has potential for grave consequences for your privacy if it ever became ubiquitous and used as a "universal logon" solution in the more casual areas of the Internet.
RE: RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by CookieRevised on 03-29-2006 at 10:33 PM
quote:right....
Originally posted by Adeptus
CookieRevised,
We can debate whether such an ID card is a good idea or not, but you are clearly mistaken (or using your own personal definition of anonymity) here:
quote:
you need to insert your internet ID card in the slot attached to your commputer. When the chatroom has verified that you are underage (or whatever) you can access it, still anonymously!
There is nothing "anonymous" about that. The site has verified a government issued ID. It knows who you are and probably has logged that information.
Such remarks are always done when such login systems are in development or what not. Changes are the "big brother" knows more about you by you using your cell phone than it would by the use of such ID systems.
Not only that, but when I say anonymously I mean anonymously; there would be nobody in the chatroom knowing who you are. And as for the "system" knowing it, there are already clear rules at what the "system" can ask and what not, or what systems can do what. There are stages of accessebility of the information on it, which even govermental instancies need to keep.
And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"? Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.
With the eID it would be exactly the same as with all the systems already in use (forums, ISP's logging their users IP's, cell phone companies holding a record for a few years of who you called, goverments who keep info on your health in their files, etc, etc, etc). There would be nothing special or out of the ordinary with the use of such eID's.
Privacy is of course one of the main concearns which the developpers keep in mind, be sure of that. Furthermore, using the eID isn't mandatory, it is your own choice.
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And on a personal note, I would rather have my children needing to identify themselfs before they could use a chatroom (totally identifying themself, no anonymous nicks and stuff), and thus also the other people, than having the children talk alone to total anonymous strangers, if I had the choice.
And that is one of the main uses of such an eID. And the other main uses is to identify yourself with e-banks and stuff who already know everything (what they need to know) about you anyways.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Adeptus on 03-30-2006 at 04:52 PM
quote:There are two distinct areas of concern here: data collection and retention by the provider of the service verifying such an ID (e.g. operator of the hypothetical chat room, presumably a private entity) and data collection by the government issuing the ID.
And as for the "system" knowing it, there are already clear rules at what the "system" can ask and what not, or what systems can do what. There are stages of accessebility of the information on it, which even govermental instancies need to keep.
The two concerns are different and I am not sure which you are calling the "system". However, existence of rules does not guarantee they will be followed (especially by governments) and that the rules won't be changed retroactively.
If you consent to the proposed uses for the collected information today, will you have the power to compel all involved entities to erase it tomorrow, should the rules for its use and disclosure change? I think not. Water spilled on sand does not go back in the bottle.
Of more immediate concern, however, are the private entities -- the chatroom, web board, blog site operators and so forth -- who would be obtaining a lot more information through the use of the ID system (if they were to use it), compared to your IP address and whatever you choose to tell them, now.
quote:That is the classic argument used by those defending the erosion of individual privacy.
And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"?
Instead of entering into lengthy discussion, I would like to refer you to the answer in the PGP FAQ. While that talks about encryption, the issues of privacy, anonymity and free expression are all closely related.
quote:Of course. However, comparing that to authentication of a government issued ID is ludicrous.
Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.
For one, the IP address doesn't directly expose anything other than the general location of the user. Matching an IP address to a real life identity presently requires contact with and cooperation of the user's Internet service provider. The proposed ID system exposes the real life identity directly.
Secondly, the IP address can be obscured. If I didn't wish my IP address logged on these forums (as an example), I could easily prevent it. There is Tor, there are open proxies, unsecured wireless access points, public computers at libraries and Internet cafes, and other means.
Furthermore, even if you succeed at finding out who the IP address belongs to, it is not conclusive identification. My computer could've been compromised (a drone) or somebody could have parked outside my house and used my wireless access point.
The point here is that your comparison of the ID system to collection of IP addresses is poorly thought out and understates the degree of exposure.
quote:For now. Wide adoption could lead to it being effectively mandatory -- when everyone uses it, other choices will disappear. That is why such proposals need to be scrutinized and fought (when necessary) early on.
Furthermore, using the eID isn't mandatory, it is your own choice.
I think it is clear our disagreement (as well as your disagreement with the O.P. of the poll and its negative responders) is not about the technical details, but priorities and philosophy. There are people who are willing to trade their privacy for perception of safety, but there are also those who firmly oppose such compromises and believe it will lead to neither.
RE: RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by CookieRevised on 03-30-2006 at 05:43 PM
quote:Nope, they aren't different, both need to apply the very same rules.
Originally posted by Adeptus
There are two distinct areas of concern here: data collection and retention by the provider of the service verifying such an ID (e.g. operator of the hypothetical chat room, presumably a private entity) and data collection by the government issuing the ID. The two concerns are different and I am not sure which you are calling the "system".
quote:I don't know in what country you live in, but in the real world even the government does follow (its own) rules.
Originally posted by Adeptus
However, existence of rules does not guarantee they will be followed (especially by governments)
You let it seem like the government is an entitiy which does what it want. This is certainly not true and, to put it very bluntly, is only the fantasy of paranoid people or those who watch to much movies.
quote:Yes. That is a very important and big part of the privacy law and law on collecting personal information. It always has been and will always be so.
Originally posted by Adeptus
If you consent to the proposed uses for the collected information today, will you have the power to compel all involved entities to erase it tomorrow, should the rules for its use and disclosure change?
quote:1) That is exactly why they made the eID in the first place: To have a solid means to verify if someone is minor or not for example.
Originally posted by Adeptus
Of more immediate concern, however, are the private entities -- the chatroom, web board, blog site operators and so forth -- who would be obtaining a lot more information through the use of the ID system (if they were to use it), compared to your IP address and whatever you choose to tell them, now.
2) As I said earlier, not all entities can read the same info. Some will only be able to read X, others can only read Y, etc...
quote:There is nothing being erosed at all.
Originally posted by Adeptus
quote:That is the classic argument used by those defending the erosion of individual privacy.
And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"?
quote:It is exactly the same. Why? Because even the governments need to keep themselfs to the privacy laws and stuff...
Originally posted by Adeptus
quote:Of course. However, comparing that to authentication of a government issued ID is ludicrous.
Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.
Again, the government is not the allmighty big brother trying to the erase the privacy of people as yuo so often see in movies and on the net.
quote:Nope, it does not. Please before going any further take a step in the real life, research why they have the eID, what it is, how it is going to be used, how it will be implemented, what entities can (not) do with it, read up on how governments work, how they also need to keep themselfs to the law, etc.
Originally posted by Adeptus
For one, the IP address doesn't directly expose anything other than the general location of the user. Matching an IP address to a real life identity presently requires contact with and cooperation of the user's Internet service provider. The proposed ID system exposes the real life identity directly.
quote:Without knowing "technical details", how something will work, you can not discuss the results or philosphy behind it.
Originally posted by Adeptus
I think it is clear our disagreement (as well as your disagreement with the O.P. of the poll and its negative responders) is not about the technical details, but priorities and philosophy. There are people who are willing to trade their privacy for perception of safety, but there are also those who firmly oppose such compromises and believe it will lead to neither.
Of course there were some privacy issues to be worked out, but be assured that they are/were worked upon before this was/is put in general public! And no, governments (at least here, in democracies) will not be able to read all the info they want just like that and each sub-instancy of the government would only be able to access the info they need. The same with private entities.
I would've agreed with all you've said (mostly), if, and only IF 1) the eID is what you let it seem to be (which is not), 2) is being used like you let it seem to be (which is not), and 3) if the goverments are indeed the all mighty corrupt privacy erasing monsters as you let it be (which is not).
If it was like you believe it is, it would never have been developped and been put in production in the first place because it would indeed be a major invasion of privacy.
RE: Should internet have a digital I.D.. by Adeptus on 03-30-2006 at 06:54 PM
Hi,
quote:It may not be true in Belgium. However, I am looking at the concept from a global perspective (given the Internet is a global network and several other countries already have the same type of ID in the pipeline).
You let it seem like the government is an entitiy which does what it want. This is certainly not true and, to put it very bluntly, is only the fantasy of paranoid people or those who watch to much movies.
To put it very bluntly, if your belief of government benevolence and compliance with its own laws extends to every government on the planet, I think it is you who might benefit from some dose of reality.
quote:Please do not patronize me. Not everyone who disagrees with your views is automatically ignorant.
take a step in the real life, research why they have the eID, what it is, how it is going to be used, how it will be implemented, what entities can (not) do with it, read up on how governments work...