Hello,

In the last couple of months, I’ve read many stories about Windows Vista and comments from people complaining about it. I shared some of their frustrations while testing Vista Beta 1&2 myself but until now, I kept using the “hey, it’s a beta, stop complaining and wait” argument. I said “until now” because Windows Vista’s first release candidate version is expected to be out soon. What more can I say than “it’s not ready”? In the past 10 years I spent as a software developer, I’ve always been eager to test new operating systems and update my products accordingly, always been a supporter of Microsoft in one way or the other. I really believed that Windows Vista would be an exceptional piece of work and this trust started to erode when they announced the list of features that they were pulling out from the final release (that many people tend to have forgotten now). Now, they are talking about a release candidate built from a beta version that’s nowhere near what a public product should be and this really concerns me a lot.

Recently, I tried working on Vista Beta 2 to make Messenger Plus! “Windows Vista Ready” and I couldn’t do a satisfying job, for two simple but important reasons: lack of new api/behaviour documentation and constant battles against Vista to make it do what I want it to do (nothing pleases more than getting 3 confirmations to copy/replace a file to finally realise 10 minutes later that the file never got replaced as it should have). If I’m getting so many problems while having the will and interest to work on Vista, with a project of the size of Messenger Plus!, imagine how bigger companies must be feeling right now. Chances are they’re more actively working on PR sheets telling people that their new line of Vista products will be released in late 2007 rather than working on the products themselves and if that’s true, what good will Vista be without good third party software and drivers?

I know some of you may say that we still have to wait for the next testers’ release but I don’t think that’s true, you cannot expect to create a good release candidate from such an unstable beta version. My concerns have now surpassed my original beliefs and seeing that I’m not the only one thinking this way, I though some of you may be interested in reading about it. For that reason, I invite you to check out the recent news post from my friends at Neowin as well as the blogs linked in the article. I still trust Microsoft for doing the right thing and I don’t think there should be such a difference between “shareholder’s interests” and “public interests”. If you don’t get the second, how can you expect to maintain the first?

Patchou

What can i say.. i guess you're right

i have beta 2, never installed it, and i never will.

You're so right.

I've not used Vista myself yet and probably won't for some time since I'm satisfied with XP, but I happen to help run #windowsvista and #vista channels on EFNet (trekie actually owns the channels) so I've seen the sort of questions and issues people have had and on the whole the majority of people have found it pretty okay/stable to run and use from day to day - granted most of them weren't developers. There are some hardcore testers around though and they have found it fair-average to dev on, one of my close friends has switched to it as a primary OS and she has made almost no complaints about it. I think neowin are overly pessimistic.

To be honest when Vista comes out, I won't be using it for a while. Same with most people I guess, the minority will be using Vista, and therefore release dates do not bother me. I would rather have the finished OS, that is just wonderful, than a rushed OS that makes me want to just downgrade again.

I guess there will be a load SP's for vista. I don't use it until at least SP1 is there. Then still...

tbh i don't think Microsoft will release a bug riddled OS with major performance and stability problems. Microsoft aren't stupid - all the stuff people have been "suggesting" they would have been considering a long time ago.

Sure, there is going to be minor problems on release that will be fixed up in service packs. But i can tell you for certain (running Vista for awhile now) that once its released and you install it you definitely will not beable to downgrade to windows XP again.

technically, but i'm sure i'd want to

Tbh i think vista is being put up as something it isnt ... its not all its said to be. The developers should put the users needs first. ffs they are the ones who will buy your product and without that, you are fuxed.

Anyways i wont be shifting anytime soon. I was eager to come on xp cause 98 was butt ugly and old and ME was crappy. Xp is far better imo and ill stick with it Looks good and performs even better

Well when Vista comes out I won't be useing it. It's way to fancy for me. Too much preatty graphics and its to secure (wells trys to be) like I remember at one time it asked you 3 times if you were sure you wanted to delete a file. And also every driver has to be signed with Microsoft. Which is stupid because now my older mixing hardware wont work with it.

I'll stick with XP then I'll eventually move to Linux or I'll get a Mac.

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Originally posted by Exca
What can i say.. i guess you're right

i have beta 2, never installed it, and i never will.

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Yeah not to mention that the system requirements for Vista are way too exaggerated, also you are more like to have to get even more than what Vista needs to run because you still need to have something free to run other programs like Office, WLM, Messenger Plus!, etc.

A lot of people sure gonna need to buy a new computer or at least upgrade their existing ones and that is additional money to the one needed to buy the new OS

I think Vista will end up like Win ME.

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Originally posted by brian
I think Vista will end up like Win ME.

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tell me about it I had ME and several times I had to reinstall it all over again due to errors, but ever since I upgrade to XP my problems sure are over, my system runs smoothly and fast, sure my computer is not a Pentium 4 but the speed it has is pretty decent

I agree with everyone else, Windows Vista needs more time.

I installed Windows Vista on a second partition on my computer and use it as my main OS (my other OS is Windows XP). Sure it has a few buggy behaviours, but I think most people here are quite pessimistic. Don't get me wrong, I think Patchou (and many others) know what they are on about.

I think that if someone doesn't have a reason (e.g. not a Developer, Technician or extremely eager to try the OS) to install Windows Vista Beta 2, then they shouldn't. Their computer works fine now and will for a few more years.

If Microsoft releases Vista too early, it will probably turn out like Windows XP (before SP1) did. If there are too many early adopters, this could be catastrophic for Microsoft. But i'm counting on the fact that if Windows Vista is released too early, not many people will upgrade at first anyway because people will be saying that their XP computers are fine just like in the days of 98 when XP was released. I hope this is the case for now.

Windows XP will be fine to use for a few more years so people who are happy with their computers need not to install Windows Vista. If you really want to get Windows Vista (or if you are using 2000 or earlier), wait for a few months and then use your good judgement.

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Originally posted by DJeX
Too much preatty graphics and its to secure (wells trys to be) like I remember at one time it asked you 3 times if you were sure you wanted to delete a file.

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Originally posted by DJeX
And also every driver has to be signed with Microsoft

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Originally posted by brian
I think Vista will end up like Win ME.

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IMHO Vista isn't ready for public. It need more time. I'll get it once it gets released to get used to it for a few months before I build a new computer on Q3 2007 but I rather wait 3 more months for Vista than having Windows ME Part 2. I remember that my father installed ME and 4 days later he went back to 98SE Microsoft is still the leader but IMO I think that if they rush Vista and it has a lot of problems it can be the beggining of the end for Microsoft. For example I'm not using Ubuntu (or any othe Linux Distribution) because they dislike my computer (the current kernel and hardware detection system) but it will probably be fixed by the time Vista comes out and dual-boot with Vista may be a fair option for me

Note: don't misinterpret my news post... I do think Vista will be a great OS, I just think it needs more time from its current state to the first public release. Without such time, the quality wont be what it's supposed to be and I'm afraid we'll hear a lot more complains than praises. And once people go back to XP, it will be pretty hard to make them move again.

I have Windows Vista Beta 2 on my second partition and if I say so myself I really like it (excluding the fact I can't get Flip3D working ). I mean it looks good and does stuff, but I think it is still far from release....if it is rushed....it will suck...if it is not rushed..it will still suck but less

* prashker hates the Continue button now for Vista making me click it so many different times

I agree, it's buggy, but hopefully it will end good.

I'm gonna try it, but I'll go back to XP.

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Originally posted by Patchou
Note: don't misinterpret my news post... I do think Vista will be a great OS, I just think it needs more time from its current state to the first public release. Without such time, the quality wont be what it's supposed to be and I'm afraid we'll hear a lot more complains than praises. And once people go back to XP, it will be pretty hard to make them move again.

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I found this interesting to read. I'm no active programmer, but I know that without proper documentation it's about impossible to do a program to be included into a system. Makes sense. So I understand part of Patchou's post.

On the other side, and not that I am very well informed... but I visit a german news site on a regular base, and they use to post updates about Vista quite often. From there I could learn that since the public beta, a LOT has been changed on Vista and the actual build is far far far better than what most of us installed. Here's a list of changes btw, although I guess it's not complete:

http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/archive/2006/07/28/443839.aspx

Well, you can read it yourself, it seems the public beta helped Microsoft to improve Vista a lot. Also, it's reported to be far more stable and a lot faster now. As an example... the latest build takes only about 30 minutes to be fully installed and ready on a 2500MHz machine... feel the difference? As for the performance... on my machine even the beta goes faster than my well set up XP system. I assume as soon as more bugs are removed and better drivers released, it will be faster for more and more people.

This might sound as if I defend Vista... well, maybe I do, I don't know. It's just... I installed and tested it, and I found it to work quite well... apart of a few display driver hangups when playing Guild Wars... ... I'm going to buy it shortly after release, even if there are lots of patches afterwards... who cares, a lot of software is being released before completely done anyway.

As for the documentation... Patchou, let them know, probably more people complain, and the more complain... the faster they will release development kits and/or documentation... no ?

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Originally posted by Islander


http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/archive/2006/07/28/443839.aspx

Well, you can read it yourself, it seems the public beta helped Microsoft to improve Vista a lot. Also, it's reported to be far more stable and a lot faster now. As an example... the latest build takes only about 30 minutes to be fully installed and ready on a 2500MHz machine... feel the difference? As for the performance... on my machine even the beta goes faster than my well set up XP system. I assume as soon as more bugs are removed and better drivers released, it will be faster for more and more people.

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Originally posted by SonicSam
* SonicSam hates the Continue button now for Vista making me click it so many different times 

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Here's an idea

For all you people scared of installing it.

how about you download http://www.vmware.com/
VMware its free(well there free version on the site somewhere)

I use it, have linux ubuntu, fedora core 5, Suse 10.1, and Vista lol

And then my good old trustie OS windows Xp, the rest run of vmware with out losing my own OS

Great for testing i say.

Personally i think Microsoft needs to get its game together. I think one of their issues is probably backwards compatability, and i think they should be taking a page out of Apple's book and phasing out the 9x line of software, like OSX did to OS9.

One thing they do is struggle to make the os visually appealing and are failing and losing functionality. Personally I have no use for transparent windows and such from aero, and crap like that.  I also have my folders set to details view and have turned off the folder tasks. I never understood why some icons are 32 bits and some are 8 bits even in windows xp, and the iconsets dont even match half the time from Microsoft app to Microsoft app.

Also i think Microsoft tries to protect its users too much. Its my computer let me do whatever the hell i want to, like replacing visual syles without having to patch things. I know its unsafe to not use the firewall, but I'm also behind a router with NAT and a firewall of it's own, so i turned off the annoying nags about the windows firewall.

Here's another interesting and new article from exactly the same place the complaints came from:

http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=34682

We shouldn't give up on hope yet

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Originally posted by lizard.boy
Personally i think Microsoft needs to get its game together. I think one of their issues is probably backwards compatability, and i think they should be taking a page out of Apple's book and phasing out the 9x line of software, like OSX did to OS9.

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The only issue in vista (yes, i'm going as far as saying only) is the standard NTFS and UAP configurations. They _will_ be fixed in the final release in November.

How about, instead of Microsoft building new pre-mature operating systems, they build a TIME MACHINE, that way they can go BACK IN TIME and set the final release date to be 3 months after what it's supposed to be, possibly release a beta 3 before it's released, and the world will become a much calmer, more enjoyable placemainly due the fact Microsoft will now have avoided mass roits of extremist geek cults tearing up and burning down their local computer retail store.

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Originally posted by ShawnZ
The only issue in vista (yes, i'm going as far as saying only) is the standard NTFS and UAP configurations. They _will_ be fixed in the final release in November.

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I think microsoft will want to make their programs full of bugs so then they can charge for updates... therefore making them all money!

*luke-fish feels proud of that comment

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Originally posted by luke-fish
I think microsoft will want to make their programs full of bugs so then they can charge for updates... therefore making them all money!

*luke-fish feels proud of that comment

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Originally posted by luke-fish
I think microsoft will want to make their programs full of bugs so then they can charge for updates... therefore making them all money!

*luke-fish feels proud of that comment

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I highly doubt they will release it full of bugs and no matter what people say everyone is gonna buy it, because its new and has hype and also it looks best out of all Windows OS's Thus Far, even if the media says its shit.

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Originally posted by DevilFX
I highly doubt they will release it full of bugs and no matter what people say everyone is gonna buy it, because its new and has hype and also it looks best out of all Windows OS's Thus Far, even if the media says its shit.

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well im not sure i might but what if there is a big bug that makes my computer go crazy and i cant do anything...im not sure
its a good computer running fast can have 5 wlms open and wmp11 and 3 internet browsers open
should i or should i get a skin

EDIT: dont worry i used windows vista beta advisor need 512 mb only got 456mb cant be assed to delete things for something i might get rid of in 10 mins

so they are going to prepone the already postponed date which was earlier set to october - november then to january now back to (around) november? That sucks ... pick a freaking date and stick with it

Ya,
But would you rather have it early and its ful of bugs etc...
or
Have it later then it hould of been with all of the bugs fixed in it?

will the final version be free?
because for that i will delete stuff

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Originally posted by boston
will the final version be free?

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if i get the beta then if the final version came out would i have the beta

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Originally posted by boston
if i get the beta then if the final version came out would i have the beta

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since if i decide to get wlm beta it says i have to update and would this happen if i got windows vista beta 2

EDITont worry i cant get it anyway its reached its capacity so is there any theme that makes it look like EXACTLY like vista beta 2
that do not need windows blinds or style xp

Hey Patchou, I used it once a while back, and really wasn't satisfied, didn't really come across any of the bugs you did as I'm not a programmer, but I just simply wasn't happy with some of the new features. One Being a feature that stops people being able to run executables INCLUDING ADMIN and when I disbaled the damn thing I kept gettting an annoying yellow balloon telling me that my computer might be at risk

I'm back on XP now, and think I will probably stick with it for a very long time.

if you like the style on google put vista imsprit it comes with the vista theme buy slightly different vista-ish enough for me any way

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Originally posted by boston
will the final version be free?
because for that i will delete stuff

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Originally posted by ayjay

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Originally posted by boston
if i get the beta then if the final version came out would i have the beta

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...yes?

If I have 10 apples and someone else has 15 apples. Would I have 10 apples?

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Originally posted by ayjay

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Originally posted by boston
if i get the beta then if the final version came out would i have the beta

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...yes?

If I have 10 apples and someone else has 15 apples. Would I have 10 apples?

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And what if some of the apples are just pares that look like apples? what if you had ten of those pares? you'd have no apples...

And what if bostons vista beta is ME beta with a vista skin? he wouldn't have vista beta at all! [which isn't too bad]

Forest try his best to think of something more confusing

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Originally posted by ForestLand
are just pares

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When Windows 95 was released it had over something like 50,000 (or possible 500,000 - I forget) errors in it. That wasn't even a BETA or RC, it was the full release. People will always be able to find bugs and errors when trying to do obscure things that the OS designers never thought of.

They probably don't expect the OS to be used in the manner that people are going to be using it for. Thats why technology has got to constantly upgrade, because users are always making more elaborate programs that rely on API and other OS dependant features. Just because they change some of these around, we shouldn't start panicing that it's going to be riddled with bugs.

At least it can't be as bad as Windows ME

By the way, I have a grudge against MicroSoft anyway, so don't get thinking I'm saying this because im biased