So here's another poll of mine, this time a multiple choice one.

Yes, I know this will most likely lead to another religious debate, but given that the outcome of the last one was not a flame war and the thread didn't need to be locked, I'll take my chances with this one too.

Just tick the boxes for the choices which have had some effect on whether or not you believe in God.  Please don't spam the poll by selecting all choices, the reason I made this is (like the last one) because I am genuinely interested in the results.

Ok...

This is a simple one "I don't believe in God" - checked!

I take it this is a christian only poll, other wise it would be "i believe in a god etc.."

I'm quite surprised that 2/3 of the votes (which is over 2/3 of the voters) so far have gone for 'don't believe'. I would have thought there were more 'believers'

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Originally posted by Plik
I take it this is a christian only poll, other wise it would be "i believe in a god etc.."

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Originally posted by Plik
I take it this is a christian only poll, other wise it would be "i believe in a god etc.."

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Originally posted by traxor
Well a God is a God, believing in "a" god is the same as believing in God, just in some religions their God has a name, whereas our God doesn't (just the "god" title).

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Once again another thread that makes me look like some religious freak

I believe in God not only because I believe what the Bible says but also because I find it difficult to accept that earth's creation was a coincidence. If you look at it from a rational point of view it's impossible to explain how the first particle of matter was formed.

I believe that the human being is so complex (digestive system, respiratory system, and more importantly, our ability to think and reason, etc) that it's hard for me to imagine that it was all the result of a coincidence or a random formation of atoms. That's very unlikely according to the theory of probability.

But it's not only the human being, it's earth itself. Everything (including the universe) is so complex that (in my opinion) it's absurd to believe that all this is the result of the "Big Bang". It's not only the complexity, but also the fact that earth is beautiful: water, trees, mountains, grass, and as such I believe it must have had an "architect and builder" (a creator).

I would also like to say that just because we can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, although of course, at the end of the day it's all a question of beliefs.

Anyway, that's basically the reason why I believe in God. I probably didn't explain it properly but I hope you understand me.

(translation by segosa)

No.

I want video proof of him doing stuff, then I will believe in him!

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Originally posted by Peri
I believe in God not only because I believe what the Bible says but also because I find it difficult to accept that earth's creation was a coincidence. If you look at it from a rational point of view it's impossible to explain how the first particle of matter was formed.

I believe that the human being is so complex (digestive system, respiratory system, and more importantly, our ability to think and reason, etc) that it's hard for me to imagine that it was all the result of a coincidence or a random formation of atoms. That's very unlikely according to the theory of probability.

But it's not only the human being, it's earth itself. Everything (including the universe) is so complex that (in my opinion) it's absurd to believe that all this is the result of the "Big Bang". It's not only the complexity, but also the fact that earth is beautiful: water, trees, mountains, grass, and as such I believe it must have had an "architect and builder" (a creator).

I would also like to say that just because we can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, although of course, at the end of the day it's all a question of beliefs.

Anyway, that's basically the reason why I believe in God. I probably didn't explain it properly but I hope you understand me.

(translation by segosa)

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I believe in God, because it just makes sense to me.. I'm christian, but I'm kind of like my own christian.. I don't believe in popestuff etc.. I think every religion has some kind of truth

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Originally posted by NiteMare

it all just has too meny holes, unlike science, which is based purly on fact

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quote:

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Originally posted by NiteMare

quote:

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Originally posted by Peri
I believe in God not only because I believe what the Bible says but also because I find it difficult to accept that earth's creation was a coincidence. If you look at it from a rational point of view it's impossible to explain how the first particle of matter was formed.

I believe that the human being is so complex (digestive system, respiratory system, and more importantly, our ability to think and reason, etc) that it's hard for me to imagine that it was all the result of a coincidence or a random formation of atoms. That's very unlikely according to the theory of probability.

But it's not only the human being, it's earth itself. Everything (including the universe) is so complex that (in my opinion) it's absurd to believe that all this is the result of the "Big Bang". It's not only the complexity, but also the fact that earth is beautiful: water, trees, mountains, grass, and as such I believe it must have had an "architect and builder" (a creator).

I would also like to say that just because we can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, although of course, at the end of the day it's all a question of beliefs.

Anyway, that's basically the reason why I believe in God. I probably didn't explain it properly but I hope you understand me.

(translation by segosa)

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its funny, i have the exact opposite view, all those things you mentioned, the complexity of humans, the univirse, and so on, i feel are all part of a cosmic balance.

if there really is a "creator god" why is there so little "proof", other then hearsay and passed down writings, and another thing, why is there so meny different "gods". one (or more) for every religion. if so, which is the true god, and which one made everything, they can't all have done it, and if they did, why doesn't every religion mention them all.

it all just has too meny holes, unlike science, which is based purly on fact

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I'm just not sure if he does and I'm leaning towards to just saying i dont belive in him

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Originally posted by NiteMare
unlike science, which is based purly on fact

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Actually I read in some posts here about god being god in every religion even if they had names. Well budism doesn't have a god... It has buda wich is a man ascended to elightnment. (Don't think I'm a religious freak because i know this, I don't belive in any of that religion things). And about the creation of the first mater particle. Well acutally it has a way of being explained... You see when 2 photons crash into each other in a great speed they create a proton and an anti-pront. Hydrogen is a one proton atom. Then all those attoms join creating a star wich with the pressure and temperature fuse 2 of those atoms creating an Helium atom, and 2 helium atoms fuse to create an iron atom and so on and so on. And all atoms that we know were created in the stars by fusing other lighter atoms. Then those atoms are released from the stars by solar winds and such and then because of the stars gravity they join together in planets and moons and then if a planet is at the right distance from its sun and it has the right mass and components it might create a atmosfere and then who know water may appear and then the first life form made of the material in that primordial soup. And the simple life form might evolve and one day turn into inteligent beings such like us. So you see here it, the most accepted theory, praticly proved and god isn't metioned even one time in it. It is just simple has a bright universe turning its light into mater and the mater "evolving" by itself until one day we appear and just who knows maybe other planets were the right size and distance from their suns to have life...

I believe in God not because He has shown Himself to me, but because He revealed Himself to me.
I believe in God not because a prayer I said came true, but because most prayers I said came true (including my family said).
I believe in God not because I believe what the Bible says, but because I read, analyzed, contemplated on the Bible.
I believe in God not because my parents did, but because they did not and I searched. Now they do.
I believe in God not because of what my school taught me, but because .
I believe in God not because I want there to be some point to life, but because I know there is some point to life.
I believe in God not because I want to go to heaven when I die, but because after I read and considering the truth, I know that the heaven (and hell) is real.
I believe in God not because everyone else does, but because not everyone does (just look at the number of people who voted "I don't believe in God" )

To those who ask for a physical proof that God is real, I'm sorry to say that it is almost impossible if it's not possible at all.
Think about this, many people saw Jesus 2000 years ago, yet they didn't believe in Him.
Would you believe if I say nasi gudeg from Jogjakarta, Indonesia is very delicious and tasty? Or that Bali is beautiful?
Maybe you'll say no. But I can say that it's a tasty dish and it is real.
You might say it is not true just because you haven't seen Bali, but it's real.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrew 11:1)

It's all about faith.
The simplest definition of faith is believing something you cannot see.
You, in some point of your life, must have experienced it.
Not knowing you'd be able to do it, but you did it, and it worked.
It's the same thing like believing in God, but you cannot push/force it.
You can merely experience it.

There is absolutely no point of debating whether God is real or unreal.
Let say people who believe in God "lose" the debate, people who don't believe will think that God is "proven" unreal at least in these forums.
If people who believe in God "win" the debate, people who don't believe will think the arrogancy of people who do.

Most science are changing facts or assumptions (or even "better" word, theory).
I do enjoy reading news in which the scientists were puzzled with their own discoveries. But then they declared they've found new discoveries that had been there since the universe was created.

So there, I've expressed my opinion and will read this thread from time to time without posting further reply.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeh
Actually I read in some posts here about god being god in every religion even if they had names. Well budism doesn't have a god... It has buda wich is a man ascended to elightnment. (Don't think I'm a religious freak because i know this, I don't belive in any of that religion things). And about the creation of the first mater particle. Well acutally it has a way of being explained... You see when 2 photons crash into each other in a great speed they create a proton and an anti-pront. Hydrogen is a one proton atom. Then all those attoms join creating a star wich with the pressure and temperature fuse 2 of those atoms creating an Helium atom, and 2 helium atoms fuse to create an iron atom and so on and so on. And all atoms that we know were created in the stars by fusing other lighter atoms. Then those atoms are released from the stars by solar winds and such and then because of the stars gravity they join together in planets and moons and then if a planet is at the right distance from its sun and it has the right mass and components it might create a atmosfere and then who know water may appear and then the first life form made of the material in that primordial soup. And the simple life form might evolve and one day turn into inteligent beings such like us. So you see here it, the most accepted theory, praticly proved and god isn't metioned even one time in it. It is just simple has a bright universe turning its light into mater and the mater "evolving" by itself until one day we appear and just who knows maybe other planets were the right size and distance from their suns to have life...

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i agree 200% with peri. i was just going to write the exact same thing.

Evolution wasn't exactly an "accident," or a coincidental arrangement of atoms. The very definition of evolution says we started off as bacteria with only one cell, and our protiens logically "decided" to reproduce cells that can better help themself survive. The difference between us today and previous humans is clear -- we're smarter, and can survive easier. This improvement wasn't "random" -- We improved ourselves.

@thekid, amen

@evolution arguments... It had to come from somewhere, even the photons...? right?

And ever heard of entropy? Every reaction will increase disorder... (second law of thermodynamics) so how did the stars clutter together (is clutter a correct english word?)

Also the earths rotation speed is decreasing, 'scientific' studies show an average decrease of 2,2 seconds every 100.000 years... If you'd calculate it back, to the 'alleged' 5 billion years ago the earth 'formed', the rotation would be 30 hours less than on the present day... a bit awkward. even if it is a bit off scale, it would still mean the earth was spinning increadibly fast, which would've caused huge centrifugal forces

And another thing, the moons orbit is increasing with 3.8 cm every year, calculated back, this would mean the earth was 190.000 km closer to the earth, of the 384 450 km nowadays... Almost twice as close, this would mean 4x the gravitational force of the moon on earth, which would cause major, major tides... It would be very unlikely that life could form under such conditions

And I would also like to hear how the first bacteria were formed...?

Maybe we could create a seperate debate thread for this...

The books in the bible written about Jesus wasn't started until 40 years after he died. Now, back then you weren't expected to live that long, 30 years would have been old! So that means it would of have to of been passed down through word of mouth.

These people didn't have science to justify what they saw, and with those 40 years a lot changed. Think about it, how many times a story would have changed between those years. And then even more because the writtings would have been lost or people changed things.

Now, for the people who said you don't need to see God/Jesus to believe him. After he died on the cross he rose again after three days right? Well after those three days Jesus went to meet his disciples and many other people. Over 100 people in fact (it's in the bible) to show that he did actually rise from the dead. Why couldn't he do that now?

Pray for Jesus to appear, will he? No he won't. But, in Matthew 7:7 he said he would answer our prayers. And in Mark 9:23, Jesus said, "All things are possible to him who believes.". Well if it was possible (which is since he showed himself to over 100 people) why doesn't he show himself?

What about God, Luke 1:37: "For with God nothing will be impossible.". So if you pray to see them, you shall get your request answered.

So what are you going to say now? Thou shalt not test the lord? Really so you're going to say don't take the bible literally but then go and take that verse literally? That just doesn't make sense. Then again that's religion for ya.

And for the people who "see" him every day, get off the drugs or go find the proper drugs to help your condition.

Religion is a farce these days. Many leaders are just money hungry people. I still can't believe some people are so dense to believe this stuff. Look at it with an open mind and you will become a better person.

quote:

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Originally posted by linx05
The books in the bible written about Jesus wasn't started until 40 years after he died. Now, back then you weren't expected to live that long, 30 years would have been old! So that means it would of have to of been passed down through word of mouth.

These people didn't have science to justify what they saw, and with those 40 years a lot changed. Think about it, how many times a story would have changed between those years. And then even more because the writtings would have been lost or people changed things.

Now, for the people who said you don't need to see God/Jesus to believe him. After he died on the cross he rose again after three days right? Well after those three days Jesus went to meet his disciples and many other people. Over 100 people in fact (it's in the bible) to show that he did actually rise from the dead. Why couldn't he do that now?

Pray for Jesus to appear, will he? No he won't. But, in Matthew 7:7 he said he would answer our prayers. And in Mark 9:23, Jesus said, "All things are possible to him who believes.". Well if it was possible (which is since he showed himself to over 100 people) why doesn't he show himself?

What about God, Luke 1:37: "For with God nothing will be impossible.". So if you pray to see them, you shall get your request answered.

So what are you going to say now? Thou shalt not test the lord? Really so you're going to say don't take the bible literally but then go and take that verse literally? That just doesn't make sense. Then again that's religion for ya.

And for the people who "see" him every day, get off the drugs or go find the proper drugs to help your condition.

Religion is a farce these days. Many leaders are just money hungry people. I still can't believe some people are so dense to believe this stuff. Look at it with an open mind and you will become a better person.

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I believe in God, but my mind is open. I don't have any particular reason why I believe, I just do.

My dad once told me something.

He said "It doesn't matter what you believe in, it just matters that you believe in something." And it's a great comfort sometimes.

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Originally posted by Shondoit

And I would also like to hear how the first bacteria were formed...?

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Originally posted by ShawnZ

quote:

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Originally posted by Shondoit

And I would also like to hear how the first bacteria were formed...?

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And I'd like to hear how god was created. You only have faith to rely on. With science, there are theories created by geniuses across the world which all interconnect so well they almost have to be true.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cloudhunter
Faith is just that. Faith. If you could prove it, it wouldn't be the same.

I believe in science and God. They don't necessarily have to conflict.

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quote:

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Originally posted by segosa

quote:

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Originally posted by linx05
The books in the bible written about Jesus wasn't started until 40 years after he died. Now, back then you weren't expected to live that long, 30 years would have been old! So that means it would of have to of been passed down through word of mouth.

These people didn't have science to justify what they saw, and with those 40 years a lot changed. Think about it, how many times a story would have changed between those years. And then even more because the writtings would have been lost or people changed things.

Now, for the people who said you don't need to see God/Jesus to believe him. After he died on the cross he rose again after three days right? Well after those three days Jesus went to meet his disciples and many other people. Over 100 people in fact (it's in the bible) to show that he did actually rise from the dead. Why couldn't he do that now?

Pray for Jesus to appear, will he? No he won't. But, in Matthew 7:7 he said he would answer our prayers. And in Mark 9:23, Jesus said, "All things are possible to him who believes.". Well if it was possible (which is since he showed himself to over 100 people) why doesn't he show himself?

What about God, Luke 1:37: "For with God nothing will be impossible.". So if you pray to see them, you shall get your request answered.

So what are you going to say now? Thou shalt not test the lord? Really so you're going to say don't take the bible literally but then go and take that verse literally? That just doesn't make sense. Then again that's religion for ya.

And for the people who "see" him every day, get off the drugs or go find the proper drugs to help your condition.

Religion is a farce these days. Many leaders are just money hungry people. I still can't believe some people are so dense to believe this stuff. Look at it with an open mind and you will become a better person.

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I agree. In fact, I think religion is a perfect example of how weak and gullible the human mind is.

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Originally posted by segosa
In fact, I think religion is a perfect example of how weak and gullible the human mind is.

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I believe in God because I choose to.

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Originally posted by Shondoit
And ever heard of entropy? Every reaction will increase disorder... (second law of thermodynamics) so how did the stars clutter together (is clutter a correct english word?)

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Please read more carefully...
I was talking about the universe in general
The second law states that every reaction would increase the disorder... So the formation of stars would not work, the atoms would spread troughout the universe, instead of clutter together into a star

And since when is energy from the sun productive...?
Only when you have the proper tools to convert it, it is productive (as in plants) in other cases, it is destructive, check the paint of a car, who stood in the sun for years

quote:

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Originally posted by linx05
The books in the bible written about Jesus wasn't started until 40 years after he died. Now, back then you weren't expected to live that long, 30 years would have been old! So that means it would of have to of been passed down through word of mouth.

These people didn't have science to justify what they saw, and with those 40 years a lot changed. Think about it, how many times a story would have changed between those years. And then even more because the writtings would have been lost or people changed things.

Now, for the people who said you don't need to see God/Jesus to believe him. After he died on the cross he rose again after three days right? Well after those three days Jesus went to meet his disciples and many other people. Over 100 people in fact (it's in the bible) to show that he did actually rise from the dead. Why couldn't he do that now?

Pray for Jesus to appear, will he? No he won't. But, in Matthew 7:7 he said he would answer our prayers. And in Mark 9:23, Jesus said, "All things are possible to him who believes.". Well if it was possible (which is since he showed himself to over 100 people) why doesn't he show himself?

What about God, Luke 1:37: "For with God nothing will be impossible.". So if you pray to see them, you shall get your request answered.

So what are you going to say now? Thou shalt not test the lord? Really so you're going to say don't take the bible literally but then go and take that verse literally? That just doesn't make sense. Then again that's religion for ya.

And for the people who "see" him every day, get off the drugs or go find the proper drugs to help your condition.

Religion is a farce these days. Many leaders are just money hungry people. I still can't believe some people are so dense to believe this stuff. Look at it with an open mind and you will become a better person.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shondoit
Please read more carefully...
I was talking about the universe in general
The second law states that every reaction would increase the disorder... So the formation of stars would not work, the atoms would spread troughout the universe, instead of clutter together into a star

And since when is energy from the sun productive...?
Only when you have the proper tools to convert it, it is productive (as in plants) in other cases, it is destructive, check the paint of a car, who stood in the sun for years

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i dont believe in a god because of the terrible things that happen in this world. paedophiles and serial killers are allowed life yet honest people and kids die.

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Originally posted by Ash_
i dont believe in a god because of the terrible things that happen in this world. paedophiles and serial killers are allowed life yet honest people and kids die.

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Originally posted by Curtis
I believe in God because I choose to.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shondoit
Also the earths rotation speed is decreasing, 'scientific' studies show an average decrease of 2,2 seconds every 100.000 years... If you'd calculate it back, to the 'alleged' 5 billion years ago the earth 'formed', the rotation would be 30 hours less than on the present day... a bit awkward. even if it is a bit off scale, it would still mean the earth was spinning increadibly fast, which would've caused huge centrifugal forces

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i dont know if someone wrote that but: if god exists, why is everything so fucked? why is war everywhere? why do people fight? why does poorness exist? why? why? why? why and why? there are so many things that wouldnt exist if "god" exists really!

Just because God exists, doesn't mean that the human race shouldn't suffer. Human being gained knowlege of Sin, Fear, War, Death, and everything, the moment they bit the forbidden fruit and got thrown out of Eden.

Like I said before, Humans have free will, and he lets humans do what they want. If bad things werent allowed to happen, where would choice be?

ok... could be true. but other thing. i dont believe in things ive never seen

So you have never seen an elephant... Does it not exist? You can't see air... Does it not exist?

Just random thoughts

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Originally posted by cloudhunter
So you have never seen an elephant... Does it not exist? You can't see air... Does it not exist?

Just random thoughts

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quote:

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Originally posted by segosa
Why do you believe in God?

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Originally posted by Nitro
Why do you believe in God?

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Originally posted by cloudhunter
What would you prefer? A world without free will where everyone is a robot, has no say in what they do and there is no variaty, or free will where people die at the hands of others?

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Originally posted by Time
I have to agree with the aspect of beauty you bring up, the Earth IS beautiful. But why does that have to imply a creator? Harking back to fractals - they are simply a mathematical 'trick' - and yet they are beautiful themselves, e.g.

...

No creator... just numbers and still possessing an inherent beauty. Think about the abstract formation of galaxies or the simple coalescence of gases around the universe that make up the stunning images that NASA publish or the images of dying stars throwing out loops of gas into the cosmos:

...

See. Beautiful. And just an abstract process...

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quote:

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Originally posted by cloudhunter

quote:

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Originally posted by Ash_
i dont believe in a god because of the terrible things that happen in this world. paedophiles and serial killers are allowed life yet honest people and kids die.

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God gave humans free will. And as such, Human nature is unpredictable. Sure God could stop it, but if he did, he'd be taking away free will.

What would you prefer? A world without free will where everyone is a robot, has no say in what they do and there is no variaty, or free will where people die at the hands of others?

Edit:

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Originally posted by Curtis
I believe in God because I choose to.

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Amen.

Woot! 500 posts!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ash_
i'd prefer a world where suitable punishment is regularly enforced against offenders of the worst crimes. where a life is worth a life and not a 15 year jail sentence in some countries. but hey, you believe in god i believe in science so theres no point in arguing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Time
Except our Sun won't go supernova... it's about 7 solar masses too 'light'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Time
Therein lies your faith.

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Haha I found Pikachu looking for the OT icon:

Science is overrated.. We are overrated.. Humans think they're so great. We can walk on the moon bla bla bla. I don't agree on the bible stuff, but why is it so hard to just believe in God? Suffering and murderers etc are our creation. If you want paradise, get off your butt and do it yourself. Why expect some God to fix your crap?

Anyway, facts aren't always facts. A lot of things thought to be facts aren't facts at all. It's just general assumption. All healthy trees are green --> have you seen each tree? There are two documentaries: what do the bleep do we know + what the bleep down the rabbit hole.. Both are doc's on quantum physics etc.. Each possibility exists in one world until someone picks one by viewing. There's an interesting experiment in it. Not gonna explain the whole process, too much tbh, but the conclusion was: Atoms going through 2 slots made a pattern on a surface: a wave pattern. But when the atoms were observed, they made a different pattern. You saw a 2 slots on the surface. Viewing the atoms changed their whole being. Scientists don't know why, but they just act that way.. Anywaaaay, my point here is that science doesn't know everything. We can't figure out simple stuff. We don't even have a cure for the common cold, but we do KNOW that God doesn't exist. A being that possibly created life. Why do we assume that this powerful being can't even hide itself from our eyes. What if we just don't have the ability to do so? Just ask a blind person if he can see how many fingers you're holding up. He can't. And don't give me crap with "yeah, well he can feel the fingers".. No the question was: how many fingers do you see?

Just to recognise God as a possibility is enough, because we are not gods ourselves. We do not know everything. We do not rule the universe. Why claim such a thing about God?

But maybe there's a reason why God doesn't show himself. Maybe we just don't have the right. Maybe he doesn't like his own creation. Maybe he's thinking: "yeah, well f that shit.. ignorant dumb little arrogant ants"

It's not that God has to exist per se, but it's good enough that God is a possibility. That gives him about enough existence he can get..at the moment.. And God as a possibility can be scientifically supported.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ash_
i'd prefer a world where suitable punishment is regularly enforced against offenders of the worst crimes. where a life is worth a life and not a 15 year jail sentence in some countries. but hey, you believe in god i believe in science so theres no point in arguing.

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in some sense i believe in God, those reasons i wont go into

I find it funny now people believe in the Davinci code, but do not belive Jesus or God exsisted

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Originally posted by absorbation
I find it funny now people believe in the Davinci code, but do not belive Jesus or God exsisted

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- traxor (i'm at joe's )

quote:

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Originally posted by absorbation
I find it funny now people believe in the Davinci code, but do not belive Jesus or God exsisted

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peri
I believe in God not only because I believe what the Bible says but also because I find it difficult to accept that earth's creation was a coincidence. If you look at it from a rational point of view it's impossible to explain how the first particle of matter was formed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peri
I believe that the human being is so complex (digestive system, respiratory system, and more importantly, our ability to think and reason, etc) that it's hard for me to imagine that it was all the result of a coincidence or a random formation of atoms. That's very unlikely according to the theory of probability.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KnightieBoy
We don't even have a cure for the common cold

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I DO BELIEVE IN GOD AND CAN FEEL HIS PRESENCE INSIDE OF ANY HUMAN BEING.

i used to believe in god but i stopped believing at some point, for reasons that dont really concern you .

i mostly agree with time's huge post up there and shawnz's posts, so i dont really have much to add to the thread.

It's just kinda difficult to believe in something like god after you've been studying "advanced" physics and mathematics (just to give it a simple name ) for so long (like myself ).

quote:

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Originally posted by ShawnZ

quote:

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Originally posted by KnightieBoy
We don't even have a cure for the common cold

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We can cure the common cold. We just can't cure every single new strain of it as soon as it appears. The common cold mutates into new strains _all the time_, it isn't just one virus.

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