Iranian forces acting legally?

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Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-29-2007 at 02:12 PM

Well i don't know if you have heard but Iranian forces last week seized 15 British naval service men(and one woman).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6506361.stm

Read the above link for more information. I personally think that Iran are acting illegally.

I believe the confession of the Faye Turney was only made because she was told she would be released if she said those things.

I also think they weren't in Iranian waters because the co-ordinate of where they were seized were in Iraqi waters and once the Irans found this out they changed where they seized them.

quote:
Originally posted by BBC NEWS on UK Version Of Events

1 Crew boards merchant ship 1.7NM inside Iraqi waters
2 HMS Cornwall was south-east of this, and inside Iraqi waters
3 Iran tells UK that merchant ship was at a different point, still within Iraqi waters
4 After UK points this out, Iran provides alternative position, now within Iranian waters

I want to hear what you guys think, Is Iran asking for a fight or is the UK to admit there fault.

Also: Do you think the UN Security Council/NATO (or even the US) should get involved?

EDIT:

I also think they shouldn't be parading (not just British citizens but) British Navy Personnel in that way..very degrading..i hope Iran knows what it's doing to it's already tattered reputation .

EDIT:

quote:
Originally posted by BBC News on Iranian Version of Events

1 Royal Navy crew stray 0.5km inside Iranian waters
2 Iran gives set of co-ordinates to back up their claims
3 According to seized GPS equipment, the Royal Navy crew had previously entered Iranian waters at several other points
4 Iran informs Britain of the position where the crew were seized, inside Iranian waters

(for those who asked for it ^ - and for a full detail of both version of events: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm)

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Nathan on 03-29-2007 at 02:14 PM

Yeah I saw it on the news yesterday, its sick really.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Adeptus on 03-29-2007 at 02:16 PM

Whether they are acting legally or not is closely tied to the coordinate mystery. If the British were in Iranian waters, I see absolutely no problem with this.

The coordinates are a disputed fact and not having any inside information on that, I have no further opinion.

RE: RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-29-2007 at 02:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Adeptus
Whether they are acting legally or not is closely tied to the coordinate mystery. If the British were in Iranian waters, I see absolutely no problem with this.

The coordinates are a disputed fact and not having any inside information on that, I have no further opinion.

isnt this enough to sway you a little?:

quote:
Originally posted by BBC News

3 Iran tells UK that merchant ship was at a different point, still within Iraqi waters
4 After UK points this out, Iran provides alternative position, now within Iranian waters

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Adeptus on 03-29-2007 at 02:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fuse
isnt this enough to sway you a little?:

No. I fully expect both governments to lie about it to save face, and quite frankly, if the Iranians were going to lie about it, I'd think they would have been careful enough to choose the right position the first time. Sounds like a technical error to me.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Jesus on 03-29-2007 at 05:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Adeptus
the coordinate mystery.

They could use satellite images to clear that up I guess...

edit: and Fuse, note that the information that should "sway us a little" is the UK version of events... I haven't seen any Iran version of events. If you've seen one, please post it here. If not, doesn't that "sway you a little"??

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by EBFL on 03-29-2007 at 05:46 PM

They claim they'll only release them if we admit that our nazy ship was in there waters even though it wasnt.
I think its making the situation alot worse and we may end up attacking

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Weekender on 03-29-2007 at 06:26 PM

The way I see it, is that these navel men and woman are gonna get back to the Uk one way or another.

A. Iran hands them over nicely, everyone calms down.

B. Iran dont hand them over, and it becomes NATO, EU, UN Security Council Vs Iran.

RE: RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-29-2007 at 06:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jesus

quote:
Originally posted by Adeptus
the coordinate mystery.
They could use satellite images to clear that up I guess...

edit: and Fuse, note that the information that should "sway us a little" is the UK version of events... I haven't seen any Iran version of events. If you've seen one, please post it here. If not, doesn't that "sway you a little"??

And the uk version of events is somewhat based on fact..:
1)the global positioning device
2) the statement of the Iranian foreign minister changing the location of the incedent

however i accept that number to may have been a technical error however i don't think the UK would risk it's reputation to forge a GPS, although i would also like to see Iran's version of events.

you might find this helpful: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm

and no it doesn't sway me because (like i said) the GPS doesnt lie: 1.7 (or something like that) miles inside of Iraqi waters isnt Iranian waters.

quote:
Originally posted by EBFL
They claim they'll only release them if we admit that our nazy ship was in there waters even though it wasnt.
I think its making the situation alot worse and we may end up attacking

i think in some ways Iran is asking for a fight (not because of this situation - but it isn't helping).

UN Secutary General and Presidency of the EU are also asking for the release of the crew, they must listen to the international community.

EDIT:

quote:
Originally posted by Weekender
The way I see it, is that these navel men and woman are gonna get back to the Uk one way or another.

A. Iran hands them over nicely, everyone calms down.

B. Iran dont hand them over, and it becomes NATO, EU, UN Security Council Vs Iran.

I agree, Iran already has had sanctions placed on it, i dont see why it would want more?

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Menthix on 03-29-2007 at 06:41 PM

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aiT80yA0dSZk

One of the U.K. sailors admitting they were `obviously trespassed'' into Iranian waters before their capture on March 23.

EDIT: Didn't read the first post properly.

RE: RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-29-2007 at 06:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MenthiX
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aiT80yA0dSZk

One of the U.K. sailors admitting they were `obviously trespassed'' into Iranian waters before their capture on March 23.

i think that she said those things because she was told she would be let go if she could, im sure when she gets safe and back into UK she will say that. The BBC had a talk with her before that and she sounded completly different an hour later when she "confessed"

However

untill the time then i guess what she says has to be kept in mind, but once again i have to bring back that the GPS doesnt lie (it's not programmed to but humans can and will.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by qgroessl on 03-29-2007 at 07:17 PM

it's a load of crap on Iran's part... it's like they want a war.... If I were like... head of the UN, I'd have asked to invade already... I mean, hasn't Iran taken enough innocent people prisoner?... Didn't they do this in the early nineties/late eighties?... and again later in the ninties?... In an article i read they took some people in custody last last year... but this time it was actually justified....

I say US, England, France or whoever else wants to help, should all team together and invade Iran, get the sailors back, and get right back out.

Thinking bout it, you wouldn't really need a bunch of countries... isn't it the SAS that's British Special forces?... If they're as capable of the US's Navy SEALS, they could get in and get them out.

RE: RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-29-2007 at 07:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
it's a load of crap on Iran's part... it's like they want a war.... If I were like... head of the UN, I'd have asked to invade already... I mean, hasn't Iran taken enough innocent people prisoner?... Didn't they do this in the early nineties/late eighties?... and again later in the ninties?... In an article i read they took some people in custody last last year... but this time it was actually justified....

I say US, England, France or whoever else wants to help, should all team together and invade Iran, get the sailors back, and get right back out.

Thinking bout it, you wouldn't really need a bunch of countries... isn't it the SAS that's British Special forces?... If they're as capable of the US's Navy SEALS, they could get in and get them out.

i agree however it would better for the UK to have backing: then the "invasion" would be somewhat justifiable (like iraq: it was unfavourable because it went ahead without the UN's clearance)

they should do it properly this time..and this time it's for a right cause..they can not just take citizens of a respectable country like that.

EDIT:

Within the last dew minutes the UN security council has let out a statement that says they would like release of the 15 UK personnel however the statement refused to state whether an immediate release and whether or not the actually ship was in iranian/iraqi waters. However the main thing is: the un want iran to give the personnel back OR give them access to UK leg aid.

i think Iran can proove they are not relentless by just listening to the internal community right now.

Also Iran have stated that the leading seamen (Faye Turner) will not be released as was promised yesterday because of the way the UK government are behaving.

Also the same seamen who "confessed" has sent out another letter stating once again "we tresspassed" but this time she also says "isn't it time we got our troops out of iraq"

-- im sorry but if that isnt proof that these letters are somewhat narrated then what is?

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Vilkku on 03-29-2007 at 09:45 PM

If they really were on Iranian waters there is no way the outside world can press Iran to release them, as it was their own fault. We are looking down on them here, but they are really looking down on us as well. In my opinion they should be tried, but Iran could also just release them as a sign of good will.
The question about where the ship really was is nothing I wanna get in on, as someone said, both governments are obviously trying to save their faces.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Voldemort on 03-29-2007 at 09:50 PM

I think you don't know enough to judge what really happened and I agree with Adeptus and Vilkku.

You know, people see what they want to see.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Nagamasa on 03-29-2007 at 10:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jesus

They could use satellite images to clear that up I guess...

I heard that on the news yesterday, and it stated that the ship was IN Iraqi waters.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by qgroessl on 03-29-2007 at 11:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fuse
i agree however it would better for the UK to have backing: then the "invasion" would be somewhat justifiable (like iraq: it was unfavourable because it went ahead without the UN's clearance)

I kinda agree... I'm from the US... I'm a firm supporter of the Iraqi war.... but the US should have gone through the UN... And the invasion should've had some backing to it.

BUT with Iran, in my opinion, they should send in special forces, extract the prisoners, and get the hell outta there...... SURE it would piss Iran off, and sure it could spark a war, but in my opinion, it would be completely justifiable for them to do that to get the crewmen out of there....

If they wait too long, things escalate and turn to war... there's no telling whether Iran will follow the Geneva Convention, it would be extremely dangerous to allow Iran to have them in custody if a war broke out.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Voldemort on 03-30-2007 at 12:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
BUT with Iran, in my opinion, they should send in special forces, extract the prisoners, and get the hell outta there...... SURE it would piss Iran off, and sure it could spark a war, but in my opinion, it would be completely justifiable for them to do that to get the crewmen out of there....

Er. if some mexicans go to usa's waters and get captured and treated like terrorists, why can't iran do the same?
Both are countries... both of the cases produce security risks to each country...

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Rolando on 03-30-2007 at 12:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
BUT with Iran, in my opinion, they should send in special forces, extract the prisoners, and get the hell outta there...... SURE it would piss Iran off, and sure it could spark a war, but in my opinion, it would be completely justifiable for them to do that to get the crewmen out of there....
Er. if some mexicans go to usa's waters and get captured and treated like terrorists, why can't iran do the same?
Both are countries... both of the cases produce security risks to each country...

They don't exactly get treated as terrorists, but I get your point.

I believe it was the American crew's mistake for going in iran's waters.. and yes, they've the right- is part of their territory.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Voldemort on 03-30-2007 at 12:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
If they wait too long, things escalate and turn to war... there's no telling whether Iran will follow the Geneva Convention, it would be extremely dangerous to allow Iran to have them in custody if a war broke out.

Why shouldn't the USA be attacked then, to release all of the prisioners in Guantanamo? They did not exactly follow what the UN said....

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by qgroessl on 03-30-2007 at 12:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by q25
believe it was the American crew's mistake for going in iran's waters

~~get educated before you post... they were British...~~

quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort
Er. if some mexicans go to usa's waters and get captured and treated like terrorists, why can't iran do the same

We do not treat them like terrorists... we'll arrest them and deport them... not hold them and play political games with their government.... The US does the same thing with Cubans... they catchthem in the water, they bring them back to Cuba... they get onto American shores, they're accepted...

Our American way of dealing with foreigners in our waters is nothing like what Iran is doing... If We'd have mexican naval personel in our waters, I'm sure we'd stop them, question them, hold them for a little bit to make sure the story was legit, but we wouldn't twist around the facts...

Accidents happen, even if they were in Iranian waters, it would've been by mistake... unlike how Iran accused them of espionage.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Rolando on 03-30-2007 at 12:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by UTI

quote:
Originally posted by q25
believe it was the American crew's mistake for going in iran's waters

get educated before you post... they were British...

I knew it was the British, I mixed the words because of what I was replying to Voldie- a simple mistake. Calling someone else uneducated for a typo is ridiculous.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by CookieRevised on 03-30-2007 at 01:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Fuse
I want to hear what you guys think, Is Iran asking for a fight or is the UK to admit there fault.

I think this is a conflict between UK and Iran and what you read/see these days from either side is to be taken with a massive grain of sold.

Let the investors figure it out.

It would be stupid to form strong opinions about it if you don't have the full inside info.

quote:
Originally posted by Fuse
Also: Do you think the UN Security Council/NATO (or even the US) should get involved?

no, this is a conflict between 2 countries which needs to be solved between those two countries. No reason why others should get involved (yet)... and especialy not the US...

quote:
Originally posted by Fuse
i hope Iran knows what it's doing to it's already tattered reputation.

UK isn't an angel either though.

And I wouldn't be surprised if later it would be suddenly discovered that UK did crossed the border.

What I mean: I don't have an opinion on this and I certainly do not take anything for granted, from either side.

PS: BOTH use satellite photo's and GPS to proof their right.

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
We do not treat them like terrorists...

Who says that Iran does? Being held isn't nice, ok. But to immediatly occusing Iran of threating them as terrorists goes a bit far. In fact, despite what Iran did or does, they too aren't stupid enough to get the whole world on their back over stuff like this.

quote:
Originally posted by UTI
Our American way of dealing with foreigners in our waters is nothing like what Iran is doing... If We'd have mexican naval personel in our waters, I'm sure we'd stop them, question them, hold them for a little bit to make sure the story was legit, but we wouldn't twist around the facts...

Who says Iran doesn't do exactly the same? Who says they are the ones who are twisting the facts?

I'm sorry, but in cases like this facts are often given in by believes.

I do hope this incident will end soon, for those people and their families. But by no means will I occuse Iran just like that as there is still a big possebility that they are in their right. We are not the experts to find out.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Lourix on 03-30-2007 at 06:02 AM

Well said Cookie, well said. Only satellite will show us the ships position at the time of the incident. But when they do go back to the UK they will get into a whole lot of trouble. I am thinking of what is going to happen to Iran in the near future.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by bridport_james on 03-31-2007 at 08:27 AM

Personally I don't believe our boats went into thier water.

Surely it is strange that after they have been taken hostage letters and videos come out telling us to remove our troops from Iraq, and slagging of Tony Blair?

This is the sort of thing that little activist groups or something do - but it's the government of Iran. That's what is worrying.

I saw on GMTV the other day that the first video with the woman was likey to be fake, because although she was saying things were good, she was blowing here smoke from her ciggarette downwards, which is supposed to be a sign of negativity, and she was looking down in the bottom-right hand sside of her eye, which is apparently the 'negative' channel.

Whatever is happening it's not the way to make Iran more popular.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by qgroessl on 03-31-2007 at 01:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bridport_james
I saw on GMTV the other day that the first video with the woman was likey to be fake, because although she was saying things were good, she was blowing here smoke from her ciggarette downwards, which is supposed to be a sign of negativity, and she was looking down in the bottom-right hand sside of her eye, which is apparently the 'negative' channel.

Never heard about that before?... but if that's according to the military

they probablywouldn't release what is their sign of danger or whatever... But I dunno... I guess they're neat ways to to show something is up.

RE: Iranian forces acting legally? by Fuse on 03-31-2007 at 09:20 PM

I have found an Iranian version of events:

quote:
Originally posted by BBC News on Iranian Version of Events

1 Royal Navy crew stray 0.5km inside Iranian waters
2 Iran gives set of co-ordinates to back up their claims
3 According to seized GPS equipment, the Royal Navy crew had previously entered Iranian waters at several other points
4 Iran informs Britain of the position where the crew were seized, inside Iranian waters

(for those who asked for it ^ - and for a full detail of both version of events: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm)

Basically the position where they were detained (see picture) is apparently the position that the British sailor's GPS says. All the other pink marks are places that the same crew have been.

Also:

quote:
Originally posted by Faye Turner's 3rd Letter

"Representative of the House of Commons, I am writing to inform you of my situation. I am a British serviceperson currently being held in Iran. I would like you all to know of the treatment I have received here. The Iranian people are kind, considerate, warm, compassionate and very hospitable. They have brought me no harm but have looked after me well. I have been fed, clothed and well cared for.

Article continues
"Unfortunately during the course of our mission we entered into Iranian waters. Even through our wrongdoing, they have still treated us well and humanely, which I am and always will be eternally grateful.

"I ask the representatives of the House of Commons, after the Government have promised that this type of incident would not happen again, why have they let this occur, and why has the Government not been questioned over this?

Isn't it time for us to start withdrawing our forces from Iraq and let them determine their own future?

I honestly think that the letter is not a fake however that the letter was written on the influence of the Iranian government, Iran is obviously using the seamen as propaganda tools.