So Patchou landed the big deal with the Messenger skinning feature. Many professional designers and graphic artists are starting to have brilliant ideas, some of them are adapting older "raw" dll-modding skins now in .plsk format, whereas others start from scratch, like I did. But there's also coming up a numerous amount of creators taking code and technics, and adapting them for their needs and ideas - the (may no one feel offended) so-called skin-kiddies.

It is no secret that Apple Live Messenger was and is one of the most appreciated and indeed the best-rated skin in the whole skins database. Therefore it's not surprising that some users who want to start their own skin, take my (and Bram's) skin as basis for their own creations. I can name at least 3 skins that are either based partially or entirely on Apple Live Messenger. These are:

• Nao Messenger   by Miamoto
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin   by coolzee
  
• Dheano Live Messenger   by dheano

• Nao Messenger
  This skin is completely based on Apple Live Messenger. Please download the current version, 3.2, from the Skins database. Inspect the extracted folder: you'll find the same file names, the same structure, the same technics, the same SkinInfo layout. Please check now the file called 1075.png. What do you see? Correct: the logo of Apple Live Messenger. Go over to 597.png, what is in there? Right, the same buddies as in Apple Live Messenger. Or just look at the emoticons in 412.png and 414.png, same result there. 640.png is my 640.png, just colorized in green. Or 20066.png: a (blue) Apple icon.
  
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin
  This skin is a development not based on Apple Live Messenger. Nevertheless, just have a quick look at the extracted folder, and check the resources.dll, by opening its properties. What do you see? Here's what you will see. No further comment needed.
  
  
• Dheano Live Messenger
  This is again a skin completely based on ALM. With this one, I have to add the information that dheano added me on messenger, and talked to me about it. I told him I'd be happy if he changed the graphics and not just the colors, and he agreed. So the screenshot you see in the thread liked above is old. At least he will give "based on" credits.

You are right ...

All what I think about this you know it already mynetx... but I'm going to tell it to everybody here...

1. preventing copy is just impossible and respect is just a matter of education...
2. I support what Dheano did... cause I think is the only way of new skinners and old skinners can coexist... he isn't coping your skin but basing his skin in yours... and what I expect of him... is a completly different graphical release and a thank to you somewhere in his skin....
3. I hate people that takes ideas, graphics or code without asking... and after that they don't thank anybody neither...
4. I think some rules must be applied to DB submits... Nao Messenger shouldn't be accepted there for now...
5. Some respect and partnership must be considerated before modifying and submitting a idea/skin...

if we don't control this now... this is going to be out of control in a few month when most of the ww people had updated MP!L to 4.5...

I don't think much more needs to be said. Most important stuff is already said by mynetx and warmth.


However, don't forget that skinning is much stricter "coding" than scripting. Indeed, with scripting each programmer has his own style and you often can program a function in more than one way. With skinning you can't, it is much stricter and something can often only be done in one way. I don't see this as "stealing" if more people are using a certain same style to color their contactlist background or whatever.

However, if the "stealing" is done in such an obvious way like in the Nao Messenger skin, then yes, it should be discouraged and the author should have more respect and at least ask for permission to use the existing graphics. But, you can't protect yourself from this. What can be done is refusing such skins in the database, which I would totally agree with in this case.

As an author of a skin, what you can do is report the skin you think has stolen stuff from your original skin, and contact its author to tell him/her that he/she need permission from you to use your graphics.

Bah, I've been "skinning" on and off for over 4 years now, and I have dealt with this enough to know that unless it's completely a blatant rip, it's best to let it go.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, goes the saying, and it really is. I have to be honest, sometimes some people irk me and then I say something to vent and let it go, but really, I saw this topic coming up sometime in the future, when I first heard of the skinning feature and the same thing when the scripting feature was released.

For example, mynetx, I essentially re wrote most of your Apple Live Messenger, in its early stages, but I really didn't expect much in return.

It's the joy of helping someone else and seeing your work replicated as to why I do it. Of course, it goes with saying, you are entitled to your own view on things and as fas as licensing goes, there is something called "Intellectual Property Right", which means that you own whatever you make. You are entitled to exercise that right, just as long as you don't do it after waiving it.

I would be careful about what you call Intellectual Property though as even though you have made a modification/fabrication of a skin, the base is still Microsoft's so if at all, you are considering doing something of that sort, I urge you to do proper research.

Thanks for your honest words, ipab. As for your rewriting of the code, I'm very thankful for it, and you will get your credits as soon as I got some time to include an Options pane. In fact, I did not say I'd impose licensing upon my creations, I just added the idea in the discussion to be considered.

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Originally posted by mynetx
In fact, I did not say I'd impose licensing upon my creations, I just added the idea in the discussion to be considered.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
However, if the "stealing" is done in such an obvious way like in the Nao Messenger skin, then yes, it should be discouraged and the author should have more respect and at least ask for permission to use the existing graphics. But, you can't protect yourself from this. What can be done is refusing such skins in the database, which I would totally agree with in this case.

As an author of a skin, what you can do is report the skin you think has stolen stuff from your original skin, and contact its author to tell him/her that he/she need permission from you to use your graphics.

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Well, Miamoto didn't have my permission. And nobody urged coolzee to use my dll, and just edit its resources (but in fact, I don't bother whether he's using it).

Well, you could comment that in your skin's code

Back to the topic.
What do you others think about it? Sunshine? vikke? Nile? Willz? Patchou?

Looking at the Open Source character of Plus! skinning this is to be expected (no resource is hidden). As long as it isn't almost exactly the same in looks i don't see a problem with it (like takin all original resources and only colour em differently for example).

How things are accomplished internally will be the same (or very much the same) anyways. And i do believe (and this goes especially for the skins released on release of Plus! 4.50) our skins are ment as an example on how things can be done too. I don't put comments in my SkinInfo.xml just for myself but for others to learn from as well.

If you are the first with a specific idea and made it real, be proud of it. If you had help with it at least thank that person in your release thread (everybody needs a lil help sometimes, nothing to be ashamed of). If somebody else likes your original feature and understands by reading your code and implements it, be happy you've set a trend.

Nobody is stopping you from including a README.TXT with your skin in which you ask people not to use your images without your permission...but do think before doing so.

Example: my skin exists out of Plus! resources i applied to extracted images and copyright free clipart found on the internet...wouldn't be fair to copyright them as my own (sure the result of Plus! resource slapped on original image is original..but that's where it ends).

Generally; I'll only be annoyed if not credited or get a thankful mention and I can see my code and or images, however I am glad people look at my sources and I highly encourage them to at this stage!

The amount of people I've pointed to Beaver and Steve for various things is unreal

I've also pointed people to sunshine's skylines as it has simpler changes and not too many so I can easily direct someone to the change and hopefully they'll notice how to layout the SkinInfo and how to add and replace images and how to change Styles files to show new images instead of the original resources etc.

Anyway back to topic at hand, unless it is a complete clone with few resources changed or only edited the resources present then I do not think that we should complain or take concern.

Copying 'ideas' too once again if the alternative is not a complete clone in the code and resources then I see no problem. After all there will be some alternative ways of doing things.

After all in general we are a great community here, and sort of look out for each other and and help everyone along

Yes but in mynetx case (to no mention mine)... any thankful post or messages were putted inside... and no permission was asked for... so...

I've only had permission asked from me once. I'm not going to get all high and corporate on my fellow community, that's just acting like the companies I hate the most, I'm sure you can think of those copyright nazi companies I'm thinking of...

I shouldn't and won't ask for permission to view someone's code and make any personal modifications or fixes to it, I will and do respect when mass amounts of graphics are re-used though so if I was going to release a new skin based mainly on another one I would ask permission to use the current graphics etc out of courtesy.

So yeah just to recap, as long as thanks, and respect where thanks and respect are due I'm happy. Which is the main reason I write the tutorials too, so I can help others, if someone cloned them off me and claimed as their own I'd be pissed off. But so far people have asked to translate it and host it on separate sites so I have no problem with that and of course gave them permission straight away

I'm soooooooo available to help and teach people how to do things... no to do and let them copy, less without my permission...

So, Sunshine and Nile, the way you do it is the way I do it as well, and surely as a prerelease skinner I got no problem that my (+Bram's) skin is being used as an example, as so-to-say a basis class where other skins are inherited from. But, as you pointed out, (1) some graphics are simply not worthy of claiming them as one's own, and (2) it's an honor to see people like the idea and techs and use them for their own ideas. As for complete cloning, I simply had been happy if Miamoto had asked me before. What we actually are is a living resource of messenger skinning topics, and I didn't know the number of users asking me, how should I do this, how to solve that... Our skins are a living example, and much better than any dry example in the skinning docs (although Patch did do much work with the docs).

Ok well I have been skinning for about 3 years now and this has definitely crossed my mind several times, but more so since the Plus! skinning feature.

A successful skinner is someone who respects their fellow skinners and can do something on their own, but is also not ashamed to ask for help. If you take a look at the skinners of the past you will know that everyone was pretty close and shared a lot of their code and resources.

Personally I do not like people touching my work without permission especially since I take the time to make my resources (unlike some people who just screenshot stuff) and code things up myself.

Its a matter of respect really. If someone asked for my help, then I would gladly show them code from my skins and explain how things work and how they can adapt it to suit their needs.

But on the other hand, if someone goes in and just edits stuff without asking and then releases it as their own work without crediting the original author..... well thats where I say I get a bit pissed off.

In terms of "stealing" ideas I believe that any skin that is based on an existing design or concept eg Microsoft or Apple isn't stealing. The only time it does become stealing is if someone actually rips code or resources to get ahead of the existing skin.

If the idea is homegrown, then thats where even taking the idea is stealing since the person took effort to make something unique. (Like I know I would be absolutely pissed if someone stole parts of Ev0 )

Its inevitable that there will be immature people who don't think about these kinds of things and will steal things. But the way I see it is if they stick to that route then they will never learn skinning properly nor will they ever have a hope of making a skin that will be truly polished or popular.

The only way we wouldn't be able to worry about this would be if the .plsk format was read-only and didn't extract everything to a folder for the public to see. But yeah thats all on Patchou. I'm not fussed about it at the moment since when most people take a look at my hectic code they give up

Obfuscation in practice

The other point I forgot to mention was that generally if someone rips and is found out, then there is a huge community response to the ripper and they generally get flamed

It has happened before so I know its true

Skin developers who want to "hide" their files can use resource DLL libraries, it's entirely supported by the system.

That being said, I understand your point and we had similar discussions when scripts were introduced. It's the nature of this work: many people will probably just prefer modifying an existing skin rather than creating a new one from scratch. As ipab said, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". However, this kind of copy won't be blindly tolerated in the official skin db, like it is not tolerated in the scripts db. As a general rule, people should always credit others when appropriate. If they just copied your stuff and don't mention your name anywhere, you have the right to complain and the skin could be removed from the db as a consequence. It's generally better to contact the other skin develoepr directly as more than often, this kind of problem can be resolved in a more appropriate way like that.

I'm the first one to recommend people to check existing skins and scripts to learn how to do it. Many of you already did that while beta testing and this will never change. Still, you are entitled to some recognition so if you have a specific problem with someone, let me know (or actually, let MenthiX know as he's in charge of the db).

It's pretty easy to spot a rip off, I see many of the Vista skins stealing uifile code from Vista Live Messenger.

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Originally posted by absorbation
It's pretty easy to spot a rip off, I see many of the Vista skins stealing uifile code from Vista Live Messenger.

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Originally posted by Willz
I also did not know about the dll system, I'll have to check that out, thanks patch.

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I didn't respond earlier because i wanted to hear the opinions from others around this first. So here i go...


First comments on the three you reported:

• Nao Messenger
  Miamoto mailed me after you created this thread. First a mail with a request to remove his skin from the db completely. But before i got around reading it i got a new mail with a v3.3 (apparently the last version we'll see from Nao ) which is on the DB now. I trust you guys have contact and can work it out together.
  
• Longhorn Theme skin
  Received an update from coolzee too (online on db), the problem you mention with the .dll seems fixed.
  
• Dheano Live Messenger
  Isn't submitted to the db yet, but looks like you guys worked it out already .

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Originally posted by mynetx
What is protectworthy? How much is a skinner allowed to copy from an existing creation?

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• Taking images or DLLs from other skins without permission is definitely not allowed. For images i mean original images that you created, not simple gradients, images you found on the web or images based on the interface of an existing application (like vista icons for example).
  
• Also not allowed is taking complete style/definition files. I say complete, because like Cookie said style/definition files have a strict format. Style/definition are bound to look the same, even while the skins are visually completely different.
  
• Names should be original to avoid confusion, like Nathan changed the names of his script to Ribbon Messenger to avoid confusion with the Office07 skin. I think this covers what you name faking?
  
• Using the same file structure is completely ok .
  
• As for stealing ideas... a skin based on an existing application/OS/brand is never considered an original idea, unless you are the creator of that application/OS/brand. But i will limit how many skins based on the same enter the skins db. For example if another Office based skin gets submitted it will need to significantly better/different to be accepted.

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Originally posted by mynetx
What about the skins database?

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Originally posted by mynetx
How much works does he/she have to put in it, to express their own design instead of reusing others' work? Should there be a limit of unique-level for each skin to be accepted?

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Originally posted by mynetx
What about licensing? Can licenses be applied to skins, such as GPL (allowing modifications is they are published), or a different one, permitting use, but forbiding integration into other skins?

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Originally posted by mynetx
and (4) being published in such a prominent place that everybody has to cope with them when developing a skin.

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Originally posted by warmth
4. I think some rules must be applied to DB submits... Nao Messenger shouldn't be accepted there for now...

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Originally posted by Voldemort
a report button could be added to report plagiarism

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Originally posted by MenthiX
Was this posted in beta for a specific reason? It's probably better in the regular skinning forum so other skinners can read/contribute too.

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i agree that stealing other ideas is wrong, me personally i admit ive copied code from other skins and adapted it to learn how to do a certain function, also i used the images from nightfal for the dashboard, toolbar and header of contact list and chat toolbar the reason i did this and then turned them a complete solid colour is so i could get the exact right image dimensions for the graphic none of those original graphics are there now as they were fully customised to look the way i wanted them it literally was just for getting the correct dimensions.

now i dont think thats stealing, however if that is considered stealing then i will of coure give credit to vikke and apologise after all im not going out of my way to steal stuff im trying to be completely original wherever possible, in terms of my graphics im useless at graphic design most of the images i made are gradients or plain colour images, i now get jason (freak544) to do the majority of our skins graphics as he is far better at it than me, i do more of the coding side now but we do try to share the coding work as evenly as possible.

stuart dimensions aren't a restriction for those sort of images

I am sure I read a (few) post(s) on here saying to people somthing like "look at a skin someone else made and adapt it to make your own skin"

Some people may of read and thought it ment "take the skin and edit the files to make a skin" where as I read it and though "Look at someones skin get the image dimentions or search the rescource files and also look at the definitons files compare them with the originals to see how they made the changes"

Looking at other skins is good to learn but just changing the images and names is that skin to make it look yours is wrong

Yeah I am not as good at coding as stuart but I help where I can and we ave given both permission to edit the skin pack as we are "both" making it

When this whole skinning thing got released I thought "people will edit other peoples skins" and I feel this is ok if your learning then going to make your own skin not just edit it

There are various programs that can be used to compare files like "AtpDiff" i use to compare the definiton and style files to see wats been changed as well as using tutorials and documentation to work things out

I read most of the documentation before starting my first skin and its alot of reading but helped alot

Well this is my input into the discussion for now

Never skinned in my life but I will say is this.

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Originally posted by mynetx

• Nao Messenger   by Miamoto
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin   by coolzee
  
• Dheano Live Messenger   by dheano

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I'm not a skinner, but I have wrote some scripts in the past. It's not exactly the same, but I'll drop my opinion here anyway.

Back when I used to script actively, I regularly took a look at the source code of other interesting scripts. Not to copy it directly, but to learn how certain problems could be dealt with efficiently.
One of the things I noticed was that most scripters put a comment on top of each script file saying that if you want to use any code, you'll have to contact them through this@email.com or put their names in the about window or some place else.
I personally couldn't care less about people using my code for whatever they think they can use it for, so I put a comment on top saying "do whatever you want with it"

As I said, I am not a skinner. However, I can imagine that you could do something like that with skinning too.
It doesn't prevent copying, but it does remind people to contact you if they want to use anything from your skin.

Yeah, its nice to influence people... imitation is flattery.

in light of this topic i have to ask this. when me and Jason made our 365 logo we used 2 images from the messenger plus resources which are as follows.

messenger plus logo (indicating our love of messenger plus!)
a blue and green buddy (plusprefs sidebar for messenger tab)

the globe and the 365 numbers to my knowledge are either taken from the internet or are originals however only Jason knows the origin of those images, if necesarry i am happy to credit nicolas graphics and gpdc group for their graphics use in our logo and do apologise for not realising what we had done sooner.

I don't see a problem with someone looking at a working skin's code to find out how to do something, how else are you going to learn? Indeed you can ask someone, but people are busy and have other things to do. It'd be easier to look in someone else's skin to find out how to code something, that way you are learning by yourself.

That being said, I don't think you should just go ahead and copy their entire SkinInfo file. You should use their code as an example and adapt it to your needs. Just like a lot of people did with scripting, if you were new to scripting and wanted to create a function like someone else it was nice to be able to see their method. There is also these forums, if you can't do something, or something that should work is breaking, make a thread, their are people here willing to help.

Secondly, images should in no way be copied in my opinion. Unless it is an image the original skin creator got from an open source medium; i.e didn't make it themselves.

Being allowed to edit someone's image for your own use is entirely up to the skin creator, someone should not steal or edit images without asking, and it is then up to the skinner to decide.

My feelings about this ;o

The chance of this happening may not be very likely, but perhaps we could convince Patchou to make a more proprietary undocumented "encrypted" skin module for those who don't want people looking at the guts of the skin.  That way if someone wanted to rip a skin they'd have a lot more difficulty doing so.

Perhaps something a long the lines of a "Convert DLL to 'Encrypted Plus! Skin Module (EPSM)' tool"

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Originally posted by TheSteve
proprietary undocumented "encrypted"

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Originally posted by MenthiX

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Originally posted by TheSteve
proprietary undocumented "encrypted"

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Just like Microsoft encrypts some of their resources, the thing most hated by the majority of skinners? That would be a step back IMO. In the end it will be reverse engineered anyway, Live Messenger must still be able to read the resources in unencrypted form in memory.

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yeah shutup ipab, you and your easy peasy icon replacements ¬_¬

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Originally posted by aNILEator
yeah shutup ipab, you and your easy peasy icon replacements ¬_¬

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Look right now there isn't cases of ripping occurring yet (at least nothing major that is making someone pull their hair out anyway).

An encrypted system at this point would probably turn some people away from skinning since it is still early days. I believe that if indeed ripping does get out of hand at one point then an encrypted system would be necessary.

That way people who want to skin have the choice of either giving up or going to a community site to ask for help and look for tutorials and actually try to learn the stuff (This is directed at those who just download a skin and edit it and re-release btw )

If Patchou were to approach us and say "hey guys I can make the encrypted system for you, or I can make a whole bunch of new skinning features which would you like?"

I would go for the new features, since at the moment that is more important since there are some people who still doubt the power that the skin system has. (Plus there are a lot of little things I would like see done which would let me be a bit more creative )

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Originally posted by MenthiX

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Originally posted by TheSteve
proprietary undocumented "encrypted"

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Just like Microsoft encrypts some of their resources, the thing most hated by the majority of skinners? That would be a step back IMO. In the end it will be reverse engineered anyway, Live Messenger must still be able to read the resources in unencrypted form in memory.

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Lol, look my name is in the first post..LoL

uh-oh! Lol RUN..lol

Well, what do i think? umm..well Patchou should of make a feature that hidden the codes..so that way no one can copy each other..but anyways..alot of people copy each other...in the pass and now..the whole point of making a skin..to view the messenger into your liking..umm..respecting the one who skin WLM from scratch?umm..well isnt all the codes belongs to Microsoft? Yes..lol..so all of you are guilty..haha ..

This is like pirated DVD's haha, you can't stop the people from making those..just like pirated skins..haha

but anyways...everyone is stealing...so don't lie

have fun arguing..I'll be releasing one more skin of mine..and off to another hobby of mine..lol

One last thing, Microsoft should of just create a feature for WLM that allows you to skin Windows Live Messenger..because now we are just taking there codes..hacking there images..and replacing with ours. Not like Yahoo Messenger there actually a official place that tell you to skin Yahoo Messenger.

Mynetx has a good point but beginners need to copy parts of other skin codes in order to get on well with the system.But I think that they should appreciate the work of the other skinners and thank them in their first skin!

Skins and Skin Ideas are meant to be Copied, Modified and Improved upon, period.

I have no idea why anyone would oppose this.

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Originally posted by artfuldodga
Skins and Skin Ideas are meant to be Copied, Modified and Improved upon, period.

I have no idea why anyone would oppose this.

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