Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq - Printable Version
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Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by RebelSean on 12-27-2007 at 08:30 PM
Looking for opinions on this for a research paper due in Feb 
.
I don't think there should be a specific date; I think it should happen now. We're loosing our soldiers, billions of taxpayer’s dollars, and support from other countries. We should have been out of there years ago. The U.S. is acting like a communist country right now, and I can't stand it. President Bush is pushing our style of government on countries that have lived with tyrants/communists/extremists (SP?). We shouldn't force a country to have a democracy, especially when the people don't want it, point blank. Finding and killing Osama is going to gain what? A victory? It's not going to change a thing: there's always going to be terrorists. The U.S. needs to be focusing on getting our economy back on track. We're on the verge of a recession that is expected to last years (According to economy annalists on CNN).
So my vote is for yes. I hope our next president can get us out of this mess.
Should there be a specific date/deadline that the U.S. should set to bring the troops back home?
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Chancer on 12-27-2007 at 08:52 PM
quote:I don't know why the f*** USA is in Iraq. They think they can govern the whole world...
Originally posted by RebelSean
I don't think there should be a specific date;
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by RebelSean on 12-27-2007 at 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chancer
quote:I don't know why the f*** USA is in Iraq. They think they can govern the whole world...
Originally posted by RebelSean
I don't think there should be a specific date;
When the war first started, it was backed by the nation's people. I supported it in hopes that the terrorists who attacked our country were found so it didn't happen again. We shouldn't have forced their government out, because the Iraqi people supported it.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by ShawnZ on 12-27-2007 at 08:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RebelSean
it was backed by the nation's people.
can you guess why it was backed by the nation's people? wouldn't it be nice if some disaster occurred just before the war started that bush could blame on terrorism? because, you know, it seems like that could only bring good to the bush administration!
on a completely unrelated note, remember 9/11?
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by MC Inferno on 12-28-2007 at 12:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RebelSean
he U.S. is acting like a communist country right now, and I can't stand it.
You couldn't be any more American
I'll post my views a little later, bit tired and too busy for in depth thought atm.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by djdannyp on 12-28-2007 at 01:36 AM
this thread is only going to end in tears.
it's a subject on which there's bound to be many different viewpoints, none of which are necessarily right or wrong.
there are endless arguments both for and against any troops being anywhere
threads like this always just end in bans......the comments are already starting to get a little out of hand
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Jhrono on 12-28-2007 at 01:58 AM
quote:Thank god for living in a nation where communism never existed. You have no idea what it is.
Originally posted by RebelSean
The U.S. is acting like a communist country right now, and I can't stand it.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Voldemort on 12-28-2007 at 02:35 AM
haha, fuck them up more than they already were and abandon them? nah, now they need to stay and fix it up.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Adeptus on 12-28-2007 at 05:10 AM
I think the lesson from Iraq for everyone -- including the Bush administration -- is that before you decide to invade a country and depose a government that works, you should consider where you are going to find a replacement. Really, what we've seen is that Iraq is medieval enough it takes a citizen-gassing dictator to keep it from turning into complete chaos. We deposed that dictator and now we have a chaos.
I couldn't agree more that United States never should have messed with Iraq, but it is also obvious it would be totally irresponsible to walk away from it now. This is one mistake that U.S. will have to keep paying for -- in blood and dollars -- until it can hand Iraq over to something resembling a stable government. You can thank Dubya for starting this disaster, but remember two wrongs don't make a right.
Edit:
quote:Do you? I had no idea Portugal was a communist state at any point in time.
Originally posted by Jhrono
Thank god for living in a nation where communism never existed. You have no idea what it is.
Strictly speaking, communism has never been fully implemented anywhere. Virtually all the regimes throughout the history that we refer to as communist are actually not and are some variation on socialism. Secondary characteristics, such as authoritarianism, are not necessarily a consequence of communism or socialism per se, but rather a consequence of how these regimes came to be -- so I think the term is tossed around in these forums without true understanding of what it means.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Shippo on 12-28-2007 at 09:38 AM
As much as I was against the war in the first place, even I wouldn't stand down from the 9/11 disaster. Something had to be done, but we can't protect our borders all the time to be honest...
To the matter at hand, even though it may have been a mistake about the war in the first place, there is no turning back now. Matter of fact, no matter how terrible this may sound coming from an American, (born and raised in Texas), I am fully against troop withdrawal. Far as I know, the US as a nation is suppose to be a strong nation that came up from nothing at all when the pilgrims first landed. The Democrats want the troops out to prevent death, but the way I see it, it's just going to portray the US as a weak nation, withdrawing from a war is sometimes not a good thing.
That's my take on it anyway, I'm just against it because I don't like to see the US as a weak nation after 400 years of what progress it has become to today's standards.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by absorbation on 12-28-2007 at 03:58 PM
Going to war with Iraq was an error, there is no doubt that this was something that went wrong. However, if you pull out of a war quickly you leave a country on it's back, and Iraq will spiral out of control and there would be a civil war. You would then expect some form of dictator to come along and make the situation worse (as has happened many times in history). I just can't see a reason why we can leave so many millions of Iraq's citizens to fend for themselves.
RE: RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Jhrono on 12-28-2007 at 11:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Adeptus
quote:Do you? I had no idea Portugal was a communist state at any point in time.
Originally posted by Jhrono
Thank god for living in a nation where communism never existed. You have no idea what it is.
The Portuguese revolution (1974) was urged by communists who manipulated the army into their political games. We didn't turn into a communist country because of very few families who stood up against the whole "freedom yada yada". For example, after '74, most private successful companies were nationalized and all the others were forced with profit limits etc. Also, all private property was due to be nationalized if many hadn't raised themselves against the state... My family's lands were "analyzed" to see if they were to be nationalized. Good thing our family never liked communists and honorably welcomed those gentlemen with guns.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by ShawnZ on 12-29-2007 at 12:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Shippo
As much as I was against the war in the first place, even I wouldn't stand down from the 9/11 disaster.
dude, that was afghanistan, not iraq.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by wolfeboy100 on 12-29-2007 at 12:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ShawnZ
quote:
Originally posted by Shippo
As much as I was against the war in the first place, even I wouldn't stand down from the 9/11 disaster.
dude, that was afghanistan, not iraq.
it wasn't even Afghanistan, it was Al qaeda
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by user27089 on 12-29-2007 at 12:16 AM
quote:The geneva convention :].
Originally posted by Chancer
quote:I don't know why the f*** USA is in Iraq. They think they can govern the whole world...
Originally posted by RebelSean
I don't think there should be a specific date;
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Justin on 12-29-2007 at 04:54 AM
i rememeber watchin the 911 attacks on tv in the last year of my primary school (ive now left secondary school). I think this has gone on for far to long and should stop NOW!
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by kezz on 12-29-2007 at 05:07 AM
Anyone seen Flight 93? Quite a good movie about the fourth hijacked plane that was supposedly meant to hit where the President was.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by RebelSean on 12-29-2007 at 08:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kezzinator29
Anyone seen Flight 93? Quite a good movie about the fourth hijacked plane that was supposedly meant to hit where the President was.
Indeed, it was a great movie
.quote:
Originally posted by absorbation
Going to war with Iraq was an error, there is no doubt that this was something that went wrong. However, if you pull out of a war quickly you leave a country on it's back, and Iraq will spiral out of control and there would be a civil war. You would then expect some form of dictator to come along and make the situation worse (as has happened many times in history). I just can't see a reason why we can leave so many millions of Iraq's citizens to fend for themselves.
Well I didn't give much detail to my views. There'd have to be many circumstances in which we leave Iraq. Of course we shouldn't leave the country as is with no set government, but I think that the Iraqi people should decide what type of government they have. And by all means, if they want a communist government (Or anything of the sort) let them have it.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Baggins on 12-29-2007 at 02:50 PM
What is communism?
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Zahid™ on 12-29-2007 at 02:56 PM
quote:http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=communism&...oogle+Search&meta=
Originally posted by Bilbo
What is communism?
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Voldemort on 12-29-2007 at 04:01 PM
quote:are you even informed? they DO have a government
Originally posted by RebelSean
. There'd have to be many circumstances in which we leave Iraq. Of course we shouldn't leave the country as is with no set government, but I think that the Iraqi people should decide what type of government they have.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by RebelSean on 12-29-2007 at 08:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort
quote:are you even informed? they DO have a government
Originally posted by RebelSean
. There'd have to be many circumstances in which we leave Iraq. Of course we shouldn't leave the country as is with no set government, but I think that the Iraqi people should decide what type of government they have.
Indeed, but it's not a stable government
.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by absorbation on 12-29-2007 at 08:11 PM
Americans really hate communism. The civil rights movement was hindered in the 70s when white Americans feared blacks were involved with communism. Democracy may seem great, but it doesn't work everywhere (i.e. where religion heavily influences norms and values). Remember there is no such thing as true direct democracy .
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by John Anderton on 03-02-2008 at 04:29 AM
I know I'm bringing back a really old thread but I had written up a reply that I'd like your views on. I wrote it down on notepad since my net died then forgot about it until I was clearing off my desktop
I would like to say something someone once told me. I don't really agree or disagree with it. I'll post my views a bit later.
What he said was..
"Could we say that the US is the new UK? In the sense that like UK (a better term might be 'the british empire') took over parts of the world in the olden days. The current United States is doing the same.
Democracy means letting the masses decide on what is to happen, right? Why take action unilaterally? Lets turn the clock back to the 19th of March, 2003. Did the US go to the UN before declaring a war against Afghanistan? I thought the UN was formed after WW2 to stop such things. Stop countries from saying 'fuck this. I'm going to war with you. Die.' Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly ain't an expert in history
OK you did have the Taliban regime in the Afghanistan. They were creating problems to world peace as you said. OK fine, we believe you. I don't really think asking the UN first would have made a huge difference. Any other country doing this would tons of sanctions on them. Was the same done with the US? I certainly didn't see an adverse effect.
Lets move on to something even more disturbing. The Iraq war. Did you, this time around, consult the UN? No. You justified the war with claims of them having WMDs. Did you find any? To this day, did you? Certainly you don't need these many years. Of course, my knowledge on this fact might be inaccurate.
So basically you went to war because the prime minister was doing inhumane acts (I believe there was some genocide). Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a similar situation prevelant in Zimbabwe? Oh I get it. Not enough incentive to attack them. Not a strategic enough position to make a base on.
I believe that the US has bases on a lot of countries around the world. Clearly its using its status as a super power to a huge advantage. Its location "far away" from other countries who took a major part in the WWs is the reason for this power, I would say.
The UN? What UN? If something had to be done, it would have been. I would say that the UN is just another thing that the US controls. Its more like the US is a mob trying to get whatever it wants however it wants. Call it paranoia, call it what you want, but it is clear that they don't always take decisions with consultancy. Defy me, I screw you.
Hope for a better peaceful world where everyone is at par seems bleak. This is just a nightmare waiting to happen.
As Einstein once said, 'I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with but I know that World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.'"
Of course, when I heard this.. it left me thinking. Sadly I didn't have enough knowledge on the subject to know right from wrong or even to comment but I'm hoping someone here does.
As for them pulling out of Iraq, its a tricky situation.
a) You pull out and the country doesn't stand up on its feet, you have to go back and start again.
b) You don't pull out, the world will be on your back (for the right reasons..)
I say they follow a third option 'c'.
c) Bring the country up to a stable state. Announce a date of pulling out well in advance. Keep a probation period. If things start getting worse (you don't expect everything to get better overnight.. might take time), then come back in and support the government.
The people who are still fighting will hopefully realise that when foreign troops move out, they should start a democratic process to get the country back to its feet. Here's to hoping it happens
An eternal optimist hoping the world will be a safer and peaceful place to live in,
JA
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by SikStyles on 03-02-2008 at 09:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by wolfeboy100
quote:
Originally posted by ShawnZ
quote:
Originally posted by Shippo
As much as I was against the war in the first place, even I wouldn't stand down from the 9/11 disaster.
dude, that was afghanistan, not iraq.
it wasn't even Afghanistan, it was Al qaeda
dude, Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. You can't compare a country to a group of terrorists.
I voted Yes but agree with Adeptus. They can't come out instantly. Then God knows what will break loose. This would mean mobs would get a very big playground. Not good for the rest of us. U.S needs to put money into this until everything is settled and the way they are trying to 'fix' it now is not going to work. Untill all the people with guns are dead. I think they need to find another perspective to go by.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Basilis on 03-02-2008 at 02:01 PM
I think this war shouldn't have started so I voted yes. It is unfair that Americans kill so many people and no one gives a fuck.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by RebelSean on 03-03-2008 at 07:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Basilis
I think this war shouldn't have started so I voted yes. It is unfair that Americans kill so many people and no one gives a fuck.
I agree, we should have never declaired war on Iraq, but your statement that "American's kill so many people and noone gives a fuck" is very bold and naive
. The American people had nothing to do with declaring war on Iraq, President Bush had the ability as commander and chief to do it without approval from the senate or house. We're not the only country that went to war with Iraq. So pointing the finger to "Americans" in general is not the way to go my friend.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Basilis on 03-03-2008 at 02:58 PM
Sorry for not mentioning that I meant Bush. He is the crap of America. Not you people.
RE: Withdrawl of U.S. troops in Iraq by Anubis on 03-03-2008 at 05:16 PM
quote:I'm not sure that I agree with that. It may be true that if religion significantly influences people's views that laws should remain static because they are given by a higher power and are thus not open to debate. However, very few religions give clear advice over every single issue imaginable, especially in regard to new issues that arise due to new technology (eg. genetic engineering). Thus, some sort of decision making process needs to be in place to make rules regarding technology, and democracy is often an effective way to do that in large population states. Also, in Poland, the democratic reforms of the late 1980s and early 1990s were largely directed by the Polish Solidarity Campaign which was endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church, so democracy and religion can be entirely compatible. In fact, I would say the reason democracy isn't really working in Iraq is because it has been imposed rapidly instead of gradually. Westernised Mass Democracy is something that evolved over a long period of time, after the Saddam regime, Iraq can hardly be expected to transform itself into a democracy overnight.
Originally posted by absorbation
Democracy may seem great, but it doesn't work everywhere (i.e. where religion heavily influences norms and values)
Iraq's government is clearly not able to do a lot of effective governing. I personally do not buy the views of those who claim that Iraq is now able to police itself, and that its own army can keep order. However, I also believe the presence of coalition forces is encouraging violence, but not causing the presence, and attacks, carried out by insurgents. I can see the situation in Iraq calming down (slightly) if the U.S. troops pulled out, but then, shortly after, we'll see a campaign launched against the weak Iraqi government, which may, or may not, be effective.
Pulling out of Iraq will be a gamble. It could stop violence, or it could simply allow it to go on unchallenged. The truth is no one knows for certain. The two extremes of 'pull out as quickly as possible' and 'stay there for the long term' seem, on the whole, to be unworkable solutions. What needs to be drawn up is a flexible, region by region withdrawal that can be extended, or reversed if needs dictate, on the basis of insurgent activity. That would also give time for the Iraqi government to stabilise and for its army to train and strengthen. In turn, a small, but long term, UN presence could be maintained in Iraq to help the government and army.