Easy on the change logs... - Printable Version
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Easy on the change logs... by ZrednaZ on 01-26-2011 at 11:27 PM
This is by far the most confusing/chaotic round of translation so far. Why are y'all constantly releasing new versions and updating the change log?
Right now, the most recent change log seems to be 681, but we haven't received an e-mail about this change. All the file names of downloadable beta setups and change logs are identical, so it's easy to get them confused - and if you forget to delete your browser cache before downloading the change log/setup file, Lord have mercy on your soul, because you may find yourself working on old data.
To add to the confusion, I downloaded a change log yesterday where this:
[Window.AboutBox]
LblTestersFriends removed
LblCredits added
LblInterfaceDesign removed
was under the section "Changes between Build5 676 - 677". In today's change log, however, the above changes have been moved to another section: "Changes between Build5 677 - 681". How confusing is that?
I suggest that you guys at Yuna take a deep breath and relax whenever you feel tempted to update the files downloadable by us translators. As far as I recall, it has never in the past been necessary to update stuff this often.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Chrono on 01-27-2011 at 01:16 AM
quote:agreed
Originally posted by ZrednaZ
This is by far the most confusing/chaotic round of translation so far. Why are y'all constantly releasing new versions and updating the change log?
i think the safer way is to upload a different changelog for each build, i know it may be a bit inconvenient to access different urls to download the changes, but it'd be more clear and they wouldnt be tempted to mess with previous changelogs.
Also, they are clearly not taking note of all the changes, which is annoying, people at yuna should be more careful about that too.
quote:Sunshine told me that she cant attach files to the emails sent by the system.
Originally posted by NapalmLos
consider simply attaching each change log as a file
*********
im not sure if anyone will notice this thread being in the translations forum, maybe you should email the link to sunshine just in case (and to see if she can do something about it)
RE: RE: Easy on the change logs... by CookieRevised on 01-27-2011 at 02:01 AM
Tip: Whenever you download a change log, simply add the appropiate build number and date to its name yourself.
Do the same for the setups, and even for the default translation files themselfs!!!
In that way you can very easily keep track of changes, even changes which might not have been listed in the change logs (and that happened with Plus!3 and 4 also on a regulary basis btw; this is nothing new with Yuna... Patchou forgot to include some keys and even listed some wrong ones in the past too).
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Apatik on 01-27-2011 at 02:04 AM
quote:Do you have any example of entries we'd have forgotten?
Originally posted by Chrono
Also, they are clearly not taking note of all the changes, which is annoying, people at yuna should be more careful about that too.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Chrono on 01-27-2011 at 02:40 AM
Right now im not sure, at some point some of the keys that were missing:
CompatibilityLevel changed
[Window.ContactList]
MenuPlusFeatures added
MenuGuidedTour changed
[RecordedEvents]
UploadSuccess deleted
MyPlusDuplicatesErr changes
MyPlusInvalidDateFormat added
[LogFiles]
FacebookFileName added
Facebook added
[Window.LogViewer]
UploadSuccess added
FileAccessDenied changed
[Window.Pref.Passwords]
LblLPDesc changed
[Window.Pref.PwdMyPlus]
LblMyPlusNewAcc changed
MyPlusAccountNeeded changed
MyPlusPasswordNeeded changed
[Window.ContactListCommandHelper]
HelpExit added
HelpClose deleted
[Window.ConfigWizard]
WizardLockMsg added
LbltxtGuidedTour changed
[Window.Pref.AppearMessenger]
HlpChkAllowPromotions changed
You may probably want to ask choli, he's the one who found those out at the beginning 
You just cant miss out so many strings 
/slap
quote:i do that, it doesnt mean they cant do it as he suggested though
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Tip: Whenever you download a change log, simply add the appropiate build number and date to its name yourself.
Why make things harder?quote:True, but somehow i expect them to do it properly now that there's a bunch of people working on the project
Originally posted by CookieRevised
this is nothing new with Yuna... Patchou forgot to include some keys and even listed some wrong ones in the past too).
i mean a few mistakes is understandable, that's why this thread exists, the point is that they can learn from it.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Choli on 01-27-2011 at 07:28 PM
Ok, this is something has burned myself out and annoyed me quite a lot.
First of all, the names of the files: If all the files are named the same (ie: MsgPlus5BetaSetup.exe and translation_changes-4382-5.txt), of course we have to rename it when we download them; otherwise it'd be nearly impossible to control them. However that doesn't eliminate the problem with the cache. So, Yuna, is it so difficult to upload the files with a diferent name for each build?
quote:
Originally posted by Chrono
You may probably want to ask choli, he's the one who found those out at the beginning
True.
This will be 'hard' to read for Yuna, but it's the truth: Translation changelogs for Plus 5.0 have been the worst changelogs ever. They aren't acccurate enough so you can trust them when translating. Comparing 2 translation files isn't difficult, is it? Just as a note: It took me only 5 minutes to do a script in perl that compares 2 translations and outputs the report of changed, added and removed keys and sections. Can't Yuna do this?
Oh, and another thing: WTF is this thing of beta testing at the same time of translating?! Let me explain: at the begining of the beta testing stage, many bugs come up, and it is normal that there are lots of changes in the software. It translators are doing their job at the same time, it is very likely that they have to translate again changed texts each time a new build is released. The translation phase should have started near the end of the beta testing stage, as it has happened always. Yes, I know there are milestones and release dates and all that stuff, but the software is already delayed... couldn't it have been delayed a bit more and that way Yuna can get better translations? Also, note that several translator are also beta testers. In my case, I couldn't do nearly any betatesting due to I was translating at the same time.
I think it's enough for now. I could say more things, but I prefer Yuna to take note of this issues and not repeat them for the next time.
edit: and I fully agree with Chrono and Apatik
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Apatik on 01-27-2011 at 10:45 PM
Okay so I just checked the "missing" entries pasted by Chrono and all of them are either typos/caps changes (that I don't believe need translating at all, but is still there for comprehensiveness), or stuff that has changed between 673 and 674. These latter strings (most of them anyway) were marked as such (added/changed/whatever in 674) in the changelog, though it was admittedly confusing and has been reported to Sunshine. Then we started making separate sections to list changes for separate builds, and bumped the modified entries, as well as some new (a few) ones, into the 674 section.
About the changelog filename, I agree we could/should make different changelogs for different builds, but then again we would get complains because there would be too many files to manage.
To answer the O.P., I have to ask : are you checking everyday for a new changelog/new build? What's the issue if you didn't get an email (yet, the mail was sent this morning) about a new changelog? Do you take note of what you've worked on? We may not be helping, and I know everyone has their own way to get the work done, but it seems to me you're kinda confusing yourself here.
The changes in the aboutbox were bumped to 681 in case some of the translators missed them in 677. If you already translated it, what's the big issue?
Lastly, and I'll be speaking as a translator here, I also find it quite annoying to have to work on something that's not final and constantly updated. I don't find it that confusing though, but that may be because I *know* what has changed and what hasn't... To a certain extent. To another extent, I'm really just like you when facing the constant changelog updates and whatnot. And I'll give you this can be rather irritating 
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Choli on 01-27-2011 at 10:59 PM
quote:Yep. That's something I've also complained about to Yuna...
Originally posted by Apatik
I also find it quite annoying to have to work on something that's not final and constantly updated
RE: RE: Easy on the change logs... by ZrednaZ on 01-28-2011 at 12:57 PM
quote:I'm not asking you to make new changelogs for every release. By all means keep adding new changes to the top of the current one. What you need to do, however, is change the filename to reflect the latest change.
Originally posted by Apatik
About the changelog filename, I agree we could/should make different changelogs for different builds, but then again we would get complains because there would be too many files to manage.
To answer the O.P., I have to ask : are you checking everyday for a new changelog/new build? What's the issue if you didn't get an email (yet, the mail was sent this morning) about a new changelog? Do you take note of what you've worked on? We may not be helping, and I know everyone has their own way to get the work done, but it seems to me you're kinda confusing yourself here.
The changes in the aboutbox were bumped to 681 in case some of the translators missed them in 677. If you already translated it, what's the big issue?
No, I'm not checking every day for a new build. When the e-mail about release 677 came out, I downloaded the changelog and beta file at once, then translated it and handed it in on Wednesday (the deadline). However, just after turning in my 677 translation, another Danish translator informed me that he had just downloaded the change log and found that 681 was now the newest version. Of course I was annoyed about this when I had just handed in my 677, which was apparently already obsolete.
And as of today, the newest version in the changelog seems to be - once again - 677 (even after deleing my cache!). What happened to 681?
So no, I wouldn't attribute my confusion to incompetence on my part. I've been doing this since 2002 and never had a problem before.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Sunshine on 01-28-2011 at 01:12 PM
quote:Zrednaz, might it be that you are not in the translators email listing? I send out an email on every refresh. Can you shoot me an email?
Originally posted by ZrednaZ
Right now, the most recent change log seems to be 681, but we haven't received an e-mail about this change.
Cornelia Koopmans (Sunshine)
Community Beta Testing & Translation Coordinator
Kimahri Software
corneliak@kimahrisoftware.com
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Apatik on 01-28-2011 at 02:18 PM
quote:It wasn't "obsolete" it was 99% of the work already done for 681... Wasn't it?
Originally posted by ZrednaZ
No, I'm not checking every day for a new build. When the e-mail about release 677 came out, I downloaded the changelog and beta file at once, then translated it and handed it in on Wednesday (the deadline). However, just after turning in my 677 translation, another Danish translator informed me that he had just downloaded the change log and found that 681 was now the newest version. Of course I was annoyed about this when I had just handed in my 677, which was apparently already obsolete.
I know there have been (still are?) some issues with the servers consistency for a couple of days and we're working on it, although it's not directly a translation-changelog issue.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by CookieRevised on 01-31-2011 at 07:33 PM
PS: Apatik, I don't realy want to kill the dead horse again, but after checking things out in detail (almost key by key) there were indeed a massive load of inconsistancies with the change logs.
In fact, some errors might lead to wrong translations if translators use those logs as a guideline to what to change....
see [SOFTWARE - 862] [TRANSLATION] Various issues with the English translation
this is not pointed towards you personally or to someone else in specific though, but just saying that there were a lot of things to be serisouly confused about.
Hopefully, when the heat is a bit of, the next version will fix all those things...
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Apatik on 01-31-2011 at 11:32 PM
Meh, that's alright.
For what I could read though, your other thread doesn't list that much inconsistencies in the changelog itself, only a load of inconsistencies in the language file itself...?
Anyway, it's proving quite difficult to maintain an up-to-date, accurate changelog for a language file that's almost constantly evolving, and this raises again the very first concern expressed in this thread : we should've had stopped any lang change way before actually starting the translation. Obviously.
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Choli on 02-01-2011 at 06:35 PM
quote:Actually that's not true. It's very easy to compare both files and give the translators the differences between them. As I said somewhere else, it took me only 5 minutes to code a little Perl script that shows the changed, added and removed sections and keys.
Originally posted by Apatik
it's proving quite difficult to maintain an up-to-date, accurate changelog for a language file that's almost constantly evolving,
However, I agree with the following you said. Yuna should take that in mind for next releases:
quote:
Originally posted by Apatik
we should've had stopped any lang change way before actually starting the translation. Obviously.
RE: RE: Easy on the change logs... by CookieRevised on 02-01-2011 at 10:36 PM
quote:Maybe Apatik meant it more as in keeping track of what strings/keys are used in the software itself and which ones not (anymore), instead of what string/keys are present in the language file.
Originally posted by Choli
quote:Actually that's not true. It's very easy to compare both files and give the translators the differences between them. As I said somewhere else, it took me only 5 minutes to code a little Perl script that shows the changed, added and removed sections and keys.
Originally posted by Apatik
it's proving quite difficult to maintain an up-to-date, accurate changelog for a language file that's almost constantly evolving,
Though, for stuff like that I guess one could write a tool too which scans the source for the actual used variables/resources and store that list. Then it would indeed be a piece of cake to simply compare that list with the one from a previous build and create a language change log from that comparison to give to the translators....
RE: Easy on the change logs... by Choli on 02-02-2011 at 08:20 PM
quote:ok, that's another thing. However, I suppose (and hope!) that developers at Yuna be careful with those things, and if they remove a control, they also remove its associated string in the file. In addition, I suppose (and hope too!) that they are using a revision control system - therefore, keeping track of the strings/keys should be quite easy. Everything is reduced to being organized and follow some methodology at work
Originally posted by CookieRevised
keeping track of what strings/keys are used in the software itself and which ones not (anymore)