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an idea about the language option of Plus!
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Voldemort
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
IIRC, Patchou didnt want to download them on the install because people could accuse Msg Plus! of it communicating home...
*All posts are a purely speculative hypothesis based on abstract reasoning.
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01-16-2007 10:26 PM
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MattyRid
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
It's not a Zip file but the principle is the same, which it seems you got the point, and adding more languages yes it will increase, but as you have already seen with 20 langauges (yes that is the number in the languages folder without adding others) it's not that bad. And to give you another idea, add another 20 languages to the langauges archive (just copy and paste them somewhere and then put them in the ZIP file) and you will see your still well under the 2 thirds that you still claim. In fact it is still around the 1 third mark which was my first calculation.

quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort
IIRC, Patchou didnt want to download them on the install because people could accuse Msg Plus! of it communicating home...


Just look at Microsoft and the Windows Genuine Advantage and the uproar that has happened with that, I'm sure Patchou wouldn't want that now would he.
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01-16-2007 10:35 PM
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Choli
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
Let's clarify this a bit: :P

All the files in to be installed are zip-compressed inside the installer. That includes language files, which are text files, therefore they compress a lot. We are talking about reducing the file size by 80%+, so a language file is just only 32 Kb. And what's 32Kb in a 4Mb+ installer which is going to increase its size more and more as Patchou adds new features to Plus? IMO, Patchou should include more languages in the installer. Of course, I agree with him that it isn't possible to add every language in the world, but at least he should be a bit more permissive.

Patchou, it you're reading this, note that people are making an effort to translate Plus into their language. I think that putting their file in the installer is like a good prize for their work.

quote:
Originally posted by Voldemort
Patchou didnt want to download them on the install because people could accuse Msg Plus! of it communicating home...
I don't think so. That was a long time ago, but recently Plus has several fatures which "call home" and I think Patchou doesn't care about that as strictly as before. Plus sends and receives sounds, checks for updates, sends anonymous stats, etc... and nobody complains about that.

The thing is that (and I agree with Patchou here) Patchou doesn't want its installer to depend on the server to perform a correct installation. What about if the server is down when the user wants to install it? Note that not everyone installs Plus just after downloading it from the internet. Several people get Plus from a CD of a magazine, or from some friend, etc... and at every moment, the setup must be ready to be installed.

That's a reason more of why all the languages should be packed together with the default and only installation.
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01-16-2007 10:53 PM
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
quote:
Originally posted by ahmetgns
Because I still think the languages size is two third of the Plus!'s original setup file. Thanks ...
Plus!'s setup is 4746 KB

besides setup code, this contains:

Plus! 20 Languages: 631 KB
Plus! binary files: 3012 KB
Plus! translated agreements: 19 KB
Sponsor installer and translated agreements: 141 KB

The languages take up 631 KB out of 4746 KB which is 13%


quote:
Originally posted by Choli
The thing is that (and I agree with Patchou here) Patchou doesn't want its installer to depend on the server to perform a correct installation. What about if the server is down when the user wants to install it? Note that not everyone installs Plus just after downloading it from the internet. Several people get Plus from a CD of a magazine, or from some friend, etc... and at every moment, the setup must be ready to be installed.
I agree too.

Language files should not to be downloaded when you install Plus!. The installer should be able to run without the explicit need of an internet connection (as it is now).


ahmetgns, as for including other languages to the setup: of course, but on the condition that the translation is done properly and with quality. As it is now, many unofficial translations lack quality, unfortunatly. And there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.

However, if you follow the procedure of adding languages and your translation is done properly, there should be no reason why I shouldn't be added.

However, being an official translator also brings big responsebilities with it. You not only need to keep your translation up-to-date. And to properly do this you need to know Plus! inside-out. You also need to coordinate your local translation team, translate the website, etc. And you will have access to a beta file. And this means that Patchou must be able to totally trust you. Being an official translator is much more than simply translating Plus!.

This of course does not mean that maybe there can be an option in the setup to still download unofficial translations. In this way, you have the best of both: the official translations are always included, and the rare unofficial ones can be downloaded at will (if the server isn't down :p).


But also note, ahmetgns, that as long several people make their own translation for a current language, it is very doubtfull Patchou will make that language 'official' or even include it as an downloadable 'unofficial' translation. Because why should he only add your translation, when there are also other versions from other people? First come to a consensus as to what translation/version is going to be used (which is part of the guidelines/rules which you need to follow to make a proper (official) translation). In the case of Turkish, there are 3 different versions currently floating around...

This post was edited on 01-17-2007 at 09:39 AM by CookieRevised.
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01-17-2007 08:15 AM
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ahmetgns
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O.P. RE: an idea about Plus! language option
Thank you for your long replies. I am totally convinced now. However the reason why I insist on such a thing that I spend a lot time to fix the translation mistakes in my language (turkish) and I want all Turkish users benefit it. Maybe you also noticed that I have updated my file several times even for a small mistake. Because as you said there were  very misleading translation mistakes, such this: Instead "This option is global to all Messenger users on this computer" the translation was such: "You may able to access all your Messenger accounts with this option checked ":S . Or somewhere the option sentence was cut due to its length. I claim that my translation is the best in this forum now, of course they are Turkish Plus! users who will decide that but is there any chance to open a grading system that people have chance to grade the translations?

This post was edited on 04-08-2007 at 05:01 PM by ahmetgns.
01-17-2007 08:33 PM
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
quote:
Originally posted by ahmetgns
I don't want to be an official translator, because I am aware of the big responsibility. However I claim that my translation is the best in this forum now, of course they are Turkish Plus! users who will decide that but is there any chance to open a grading system that people have chance to grade the translations?
Then the only thing you can do is to contact other Turkish translators (eg: like RaPLeX) and discuss with them who is going to be responsible for it and do the work, etc. Just claiming that yours is the best isn't enough though, since anybody can claim that.

As for the grading system, simply post your translation as an update into the thread about Turkish translations (but please do not create yet another thread. Stick to 1 thread only, this is highly important)...

If people agree with it being better, they would use it and normally the previous/other translators would adapt the translation. You can't force such things though; You need to contact the other people who want or do translate to Turkish and discuss the validity of your translation with them...

It helps if every Turkish translator pulls on the same end. Start by removing old turkish translations in threads. Thus the one which will become official in time (as it doesn't help having 2, 3 versions floating around all being made independantly from eachother) should be the only one...

MP live! 4.1.0254 Turkish translation
Here... Turkish Plus Live
Full Turkish Translation
Turkish translator

It is very important that if the intention is to add a language to follow the proper guidelines. This starts by not creating many threads about the same thing, and updating 1 attachment (prefereably the one in the top post) instead of adding each time a new attachment to posts.

;)

This post was edited on 01-17-2007 at 09:14 PM by CookieRevised.
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01-17-2007 08:58 PM
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ahmetgns
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O.P. RE: an idea about Plus! language option
You said there are some other translators like Raplex but believe me the file which is seen attached to RapleX's post is also mine. I wanted from him to attach my file to the forum because I didn't know how to attach the file to a post. However RapleX has written his name to the translators section :( I have updated it 20 times after that first post and still the file RapleX has put have some mistakes. I had really spent a lot effort even for the underlined letters in menus, you cannot find same underlined letters in one menu window. By the way it isn't important that my name can be seen in the Translators section of "About Plus!" window however if you plan to put Turkish translation to the setup next time I advice you to put the one in my post. I am not angry about RapleX but I wish all Turkish users use my translation in order to use Plus! efficiently. Thanks.. I hope to see Turkish Plus! soon...
01-18-2007 07:33 PM
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CookieRevised
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
Only Patchou has the authority to select an official translator.

But first, you need to discuss all this between yourselfs and come to a consensus.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to Patchou or anyone else whos name is in the about window, as long as it reflects who translated the file (and it doesn't include websites or email addresses).

If a translation posted by someone is being fixed by someone else it is very desireable to take those fixes and adapt them.

This is why unofficial translation files need to be posted on the forum so people can report mistakes. And as I said before, there are guidelines to be followed to exactly prevent things like what is happening now.

The bottom line is that as long there is a fight between translators as in whos translation should become official or even whos translation it actually is, neither of them will become official.

This is something you need to resolve first between all the Turkish translators.

And seeing that there are many versions of the translation (see links in previous post), it does not give a very good picture of what is a proper translation and what not. Even the single fact that a new thread is made each time a new vesion is posted is not a good thing.

-----------

Also, ahmetgns, the version of Raplex does include the very same name as your version (which I assume is your name)... However, there are indeed some things in Raplex's version which are not translated, which are in ahmetgns' version.

Appart from that a lot of words have different spelling in ahmetgns' version. Thus, as it is now, (and without knowing Turkish!!), I'd say that ahmetgns' version is more up-to-date...

But again, all this is something you two need to resolve first.

This post was edited on 01-19-2007 at 03:35 PM by CookieRevised.
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01-19-2007 03:08 PM
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Kian
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
quote:
Originally posted by ahmetgns
All we know that plus! has a complete international support. However some people can't benefit this  because as Patchou wrote "Language files increase the size of the setup file so we don't add languages spoken by relatively a few people." Also I noticed that the current Languages folder size is 3.1 MB and setup file size is already 4.63 MB. As you see almost two of third of the setup file is consisted of Languages. I don't understand programming but instead adding every language to setup file, let people download Plus! directly in their own language. Then when somebody wants to use another language, let him select and download it from Preferences panel automatically. Or maybe this kind of selection can be prepared for the first window that setup will display when starting to installation. Why I wrote this is that when I want to share Plus! with my friends I have difficulty to make them install it because they don't know English mostly. Think this, thank you from now. 



So gennerelly i agree: it is waste downloadindg 40 languages that you wont even use. You got a point by hitting the download-my-language or download-german-language-button in the language-preference page while configurate msgplus.

I agree: shrink the setup-file to english. And in case that msgplus (the page) has been translated, the default download setup-file should be with the same respective language.

Well - i do not agree - or maybe i do. Its an interesting thought though... i dont know - it wouldnt be a time-saver for Patchou - it would take a war, building all those unique setup-files...

I dont really think i have an oppinion thinking about it. Maybe i should just delete this post... baaaah
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01-29-2007 11:29 AM
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Rolando
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RE: an idea about Plus! language option
I thought it was already settled :undecided:

I mean, its not really that much.
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01-29-2007 01:13 PM
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