Shoutbox

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/24/europe/...Russia-Estonia.php

What the hell are they thinking?! How can they feel offended when we are removing symbols remembering past and Soviet Union? Estonia has had a long way up to the independence and Russia has been the major factor preventing us becoming independent. Yeah, besides that russians are claiming that there never was an occupation and whatever that was going on - it was good for the country. WTF do they know? Would this problem be a problem if the "accredited" occupation was good to us and to our country? Would i be posting this thread if i'm happy with past events? No way!

It seems that russians can be described this way: all that they doesn't like, does not exist or has to be annihilated. It's like they don't have a clue about moral justice and rights (etc "you can have your opinion, but it's indisposed to obtrude it"). If they feel offended by this law, then what should we do? Should we close our eyes and pretend that there was no russian rule and we're all happy and optimistic? No! We should have hanged ourselves years ago if they are upset because of that. Red army destroyed so many cultural inheritances and momuments when conquering Estonia and other Baltic countries. What do you think about that? Imagine a situtation where Estonia or any other state has conquered entire or part of Russia. After this, they set up monument glorifying it's state's soldiers and rule. Would you/they, russians, remove the statue after regaining the land and power?

Time goes on and every day im becoming less and less tolerating against Russia and russians. It's just ... abnormal.

Note: this thread was not submitted in order to provoke international antagonism. This is a matter of opinion.

No, they're not right. They occupied the country by force and if they want those monuments they can keep them, away from them.

Anyways.., I'm busy now.. I'll update this post later.

If I understand correctly... Russia doesn't want you to remove monuments, monuments are part of the world heritage... (and by that I don't just mean the Historic Centre (Old Town) of Tallinn (1997) and Struve Geodetic Arc (2005))
In my opinion it is always bad to remove such kind of monuments...
I know to little about the situation to say something about the claims that Russia makes about not occupying Estonia..

Hi rix,

There are two separate issues here. 

First is whether it is any of Russia's business what Estonians do with monuments on their territory -- it obviously isn't.  I don't see why Russian parliament sees it as their place to pass resolutions about it.  That's just silly.

The other issue is my opinion on the proposed removal.  I have mixed feelings about that.  Historical significance should be considered here and it sounds like the monument commemorates the Soviet Red Army's role in ending WWII, not necessarily Soviet occupation of Estonia.  That is likely why it has remained to this day, while hundreds of other Soviet symbols without any positive significance were promptly removed throughout the Baltic states after regaining independence.

I should note that the Allies victory and the end of WWII was not a factor contributing to Soviet occupation of Estonia.  That was already a part of the agreement between USSR and Hitler's Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the outcome for Estonia would have been the same either way.

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Originally posted by rix
It seems that russians can be described this way: all that they doesn't like, does not exist or has to be annihilated.

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Ironically, that line could also apply to removal of monuments.

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Originally posted by rix
Time goes on and every day im becoming less and less tolerating against Russia and russians.

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The Soviet occupation of Baltic states was an act by a regime that no longer exists even in Russia.  Blaming all people of Russian nationality for it is probably not very fair.

Overall, I think it's time for the Baltic states and Russia to get over the past and move on with the future.  Historical, cultural and economic connections have always existed there and probably should continue to. 

I wasn't planning to post this detail in the forums publically, but it may help you put my comments in context to know that I am Latvian (although I don't live in Latvia).

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Originally posted by rix
It seems that russians can be described this way: all that they doesn't like, does not exist or has to be annihilated. It's like they don't have a clue about moral justice and rights (etc "you can have your opinion, but it's indisposed to obtrude it").

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actually thats probably true, thats exactly what i am

to the point, why does it really matter? its just a random monument. will it effect your everyday life if it stays or not? probably not. so why be so angry?

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Originally posted by Adeptus
I should note that the Allies victory and the end of WWII was not a factor contributing to Soviet occupation of Estonia.  That was already a part of the agreement between USSR and Hitler's Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the outcome for Estonia would have been the same either way.

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I agree. However, there was an occupation (though the pact wasn't respectable at all). I just don't understand why they keep turning it down. I don't think they're ashamed because of that. Rather - denying history is disgraceful.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
The Soviet occupation of Baltic states was an act by a regime that no longer exists even in Russia.  Blaming all people of Russian nationality for it is probably not very fair.

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Im not blaming every russian. Instead, im blaming the authority and administration of their country. I've been to Russia, i have seen that actually people living there can be very nice. Nevertheless, russians are those who are dominating Russia. I hope it's just a bad coincidence that Russia's ruleing people react like this to something that isn't so abnormal.

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Originally posted by Supersonicdarky
to the point, why does it really matter? its just a random monument. will it effect your everyday life if it stays or not? probably not. so why be so angry?

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No, it's not a random statue. The monument has remained at it's location in peace and quiet until last couple years. There are few people who are very sensitive about justice and overrule conserning independence of Estonia (for example, people who fought in the War of Independence) and these persons started to express their dissatisfaction about the statue. From that moment on, there has been several conflicts between estonians and local russians by the monument. For now, there's been 24/7 surveillance for half a year around the monument. Affected by this, lately government decided to validate the new law.

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeptus
Overall, I think it's time for the Baltic states and Russia to get over the past and move on with the future.  Historical, cultural and economic connections have always existed there and probably should continue to.

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Yes, of course. It's pointless to live in past, especially in this scenario. Estonia would gladly move on and in my opinion, this is the way to move on. Unfortunately it's not a process that Russia would like. And im afraid that there will be very few of them.