Shoutbox

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Originally posted by dragonball
How many people talk and write Valencian?

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more or less the same as in the case of catalan
in this map, the Comunidad valenciana (where valencian is spoken) is in blue. btw, i live where the red circle is

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Originally posted by dragonball
People from other parts of spain, how well do they understand Catalan (without learned it yet).

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that depends.... catalan isn't a very complex language for spanish people. (at least if they only want to understand it)

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Originally posted by dragonball
Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing, bloodfiestas etc)...

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catalan's culture is the same as spanish'

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Originally posted by Choli

quote:

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Originally posted by dragonball
Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing, bloodfiestas etc)...

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catalan's culture is the same as spanish'

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No way! I though bullfighing had nothing to do with catalan culture, and that catalans didnt attend to it

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Originally posted by Choli
catalan's culture is the same as spanish'

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Nope: take a look at Torrente, there are lots of Españolitos but I don't know about any real Catalan Torrente .

Btw, dragonball, you should know that some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered. But, tbh, you hardly need to be able to speak Spanish to live well in Catalonia.

And let's point out some things about dialects:

Dialects are exactly the same as their mother-languages. Any word in a dialect exists in the mother language. For example, Choli said quit is 'eixir' in Catalan, that's correct, but in Valencia, they're used say 'eixir' and in Catalonia we're used to say 'sortir' and sortir is accepted as 'central Catalan'. However, saying 'eixir' in Catalonia is correct as well. The same with 'açí' - 'aquí' (here).

Valencian is spelled as Catalan, but they are pronounced differently. (f.i., most assonant e and o are not pronounced as a and u in Valencian while they are in Catalan).

Some dialects wrongly pronounce words of the mother language:
Spanish: cansado, Andalusian: [cansao] (=tired)
German: gut, Berlinian: [jut] (=good)
...


So why are Valencians debating about Valencian being a language and not a dialect?
Easy, many words are slightly different from Catalan and thus wrong in Catalan.
Article el is lo (even written)
Verb forms like aparegui are apareixca (would appear)
...and so on.

It's up to you to define it a language or a dialect. It's actually both, as you can see.

I'm always happy that people like to learn Catalan, since many paople in Spain hate it.

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Originally posted by dragonball
No way! I though bullfighing had nothing to do with catalan culture, and that catalans didnt attend to it

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Nope: take a look at Torrente, there are lots of Españolitos but I don't know about any real Catalan Torrente

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@ both

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered.

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that's true, but I don't think those people have a computer where install plus . Btw, the same happens with valencian. Some people only (and i mean only) know, can speak and understand valencian. not spanish

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And by all means, I do love catalans and their culture... Spanish culture is way to macho/barabaric for my taste (Bullfighing etc)...

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Spanish culture is the same as the catalan one XD Not the one that appears in MI:2 Burning sancts in Seville pretending to be Valencian Fallas (mixed with easter processions) xD

I'm afraid it's not.
Dragonball know about catalans, and he knows what he's talking about (not judging MI:2 traditions).

Starting over with language and ending up with traditions Catalans are different from Spaniards (there wouldn't be nationalism if Catalans felt like Spaniards ).
Anyway we're kinda assuming the european culture more as the time passes.

Then what about the bullfighting thing...  thought that myth was desterrated long ago...

Anyway, I must say catalonian culture has two good things... 
Barcelona is a better organized city than Madrid...
...and the lyrics in the dragonball songs actually met the rythm and length of the music ... xD

About the nationalisms... I think it's highly exagerated... things like having a C on the car planks instead of an E, or the protests for not having a catalonian national football team (long ago they had the whole Holland one ) seem nonsense to me... but that's not the topic...

About the language, language packs could be made... can't thing of another way... 

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Btw, dragonball, you should know that some Catalans cannot express themselves in Spanish. Some neither understand it. Although they are a minority, they have to be considered.

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Speaking in general and about dialects, in many (small) regions in the world there are people talk who speak dialects only, and don't understand the proper motherlanguage, or have a hard time speaking it. Mostly these are older people living sometimes a bit isolated...

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Dialects are exactly the same as their mother-languages. Any word in a dialect exists in the mother language.

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Totaly not true. A dialect can contain many words which don't exist in the motherlanguage.

Also, some "signs" of dialects include: words which are spelled differently or the same words but that have a totaly different meaning in the dialect. So this isn't a valid argument of saying that some language isn't a dialect...

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Originally posted by jpg050
About the language, language packs could be made... can't thing of another way... 

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Sorry? Catalan is a language like Italian, Soumi, and Japanese, full stop.

Apart from that I thinkl you don't really know about catalan people nor nationalism. Nationalism is a far more complicated thing than what you pointed out.
It's usual that many no nationalists can't catch the sense of it. I'm not blaming you, it's just facts.

As for this nationalism usually means that culture and/or religion are different. Just take a look at Palestina. If they where the same there wouldn't be an open war.

Culture is a result from the history and Catalonia and Spain have different history and hence different cultures.

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Totaly not true. A dialect can contain many words which don't exist in the motherlanguage.

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There isn't a red line between dialect and language. If a dialect has new words it can be considered a language, too. Like in Valencian.
It depends on the government who decide if a dialect is a language or vice-versa. Of course if there are few daily used words and the rest is the same, there is no point in saying "that is a language". Though.

Let's see, I think you've misunderstood me... about the language packs I was talking in general, not discussing about if catalán is or isn't a language... whether you feel it is, it is. Full stop. The topic was about ther are a lot of languages, and, as long as somone takes his time to translate it, we should include it... It's not nice to inflate the exe tough, so in a matter of time the only solution would be to make language packs, like Nero (tm or whatever) does, with common languages (Europeans in one pack, Asiatic in other... etc, or putting some ones in the main program and the others as packs, it is doubtful that I speak both Spanish and Japanese, but it's more common to use both Spanish and Catalan, e.g.)

About the nationalisms, I just was pointing out some things that I think are an exageration of a nationalism. I accept the solid foundations of the cultural and historic differences, and I'm not discussing them, (Just said that because I think I'm no barbarian and I haven't seen a bullfight in my life) but things like the ones I pointed out seem out of place for a nationalism, and are ther ones that disturb me. (And they are real cases XD) Anyway, everytime we talk about Valencian we end up talking about politics, so let's end this xD