Shoutbox

I was sent the link to this thread by the originator.  Before there are any questions about IP's, yes they are the same as we on the same network.

I am a little puzzled by the flat refusal to consider the suggested change as worthwhile.  He is not asking for the change to be compulsory usage for everyone, only that there be an option for users to select their own particular choice of key(s).  Presumably the existing setup will remain as the default, with any changes being made through user options.  He didn't send any thoughts on how the selection might be made.

The argument, that to deviate from the standard is wrong, seems to be self-destructive in this forum.  If it is wrong to offer users a choice, then why does Messenger Plus exist?

If I understand the purpose of Messenger Plus correctly, it is here to offer additional features.  These deviate from the original, and the latest, standard concept of Messenger, and offer users a range of choices as to how they use their software.

Is the request made by Qwasson any more or less than that?  Just a chance to have a choice is how I see it.

This isn't just a case of unconsidered support for someone I know.  I do let him know, in no uncertain terms,when I think he's got it wrong. 

Regards

Ahtuin

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Originally posted by QWasson
but I think some of those links show that FPS players like the W, A, S and D keys

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OMG! 35 RESULTS!!!!

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OMG! 35 RESULTS!!!!

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Have some more then...

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Originally posted by QWasson
Open Internet Explorer. In the address bar, type 'google' (just that, no 'http://', no 'www', no '.com') and press ctrl-enter. Et voila, you are taken to www.google.com. You have invoked the AutoComplete feature

Open Outlook Express. Compose a little email, remembering to fill in the address field. Now press ctrl-enter.  The email has been sent.

Now, I'm not expert in Windows application development, but I'd say that if Microsoft decide you can use ctrl-enter to invoke something, or send something, then it's OK to do so, from a convention standpoint.

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*sigh*
I said:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If the ability is needed to invoke something automaticly AND to write multiple lines, then Enter is ALWAYS used for invoking the action and Ctrl-Enter for the next line, not vice versa.

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Only when there is no need for multilines, (like in the address bar) then Ctrl-Enter may have the same function as Enter...

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Originally posted by QWasson
You muct be much narrower across the shoulders than me, or have a much bigger desk to have a comfortable amount of room to manage that.   And having two people playing a FPS on the same computer is something I'd really like to see... 

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I dunno what kind of keyboard you have, but in the worst case I only need to move my keyboard 10cm to be in a very very confortable position to use the arrow keys and the mouse....

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Originally posted by QWasson
And having two people playing a FPS on the same computer is something I'd really like to see...

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That ability exists since games were first made back in the 80's.... Even very big, heavly graphic games have that ability. (not all of course, but many many have)...

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Originally posted by QWasson
Isn't the MSN9 protocol a standard? Doesn't MsgPlus add features on top of that protocol for the benifit of its users?

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Plus! doesn't touch the protocol...


Look, you can argue all you want.... The way Ctrl-Enter and Enter works is VERY consistent in all Windows apps and you can ask any developer how it is implemented. And comparing messenger+msgplus to standarized UI is useless cause you're comparing two different things. Messenger+MsgPlus is adding more features to Messenger while conserving the standard Windows UI....

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Only when there is no need for multilines, (like in the address bar) then Ctrl-Enter may have the same function as Enter...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Open Outlook Express. Compose a little email, remembering to fill in the address field. Now press ctrl-enter.  The email has been sent.

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The body textarea of the mail is a multiline textbox.
Btw, I think Shift-Enter has, and always should have, a newline function, in multiline textboxes, but Ctrl-Enter never really had that fuction. Ctrl-Enter isn't generally standardised throughout windows applications, which is exactly the reason why ICQ and many other messangers used that key combination to invoke the Send, whereas with Enter, being the replacement of "Return", being the actual line-feed, it would only be logic that it has the function to add a line, rather than to invoke, in a multiline conversation box. The reason we all think it isn't logic, is because we're so very used to it sending the message, rather than newlining. Enter always has and always will newline in a textarea.
If we have a textarea in an options dialog, and we press enter to newline in it, and the dialog closes because it assumes that the Enter key was supposed to invoke the "Ok" button, we get irritated.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
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Originally posted by QWasson
Isn't the MSN9 protocol a standard? Doesn't MsgPlus add features on top of that protocol for the benifit of its users?
Plus! doesn't touch the protocol...

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He didn't say it does, he said it added features unsupported by the way MSN Messenger handles the protocol.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
The way Ctrl-Enter and Enter works is VERY consistent in all Windows apps and you can ask any developer how it is implemented.

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Shift-Enter, yes, newline - no new paragraph
Enter, yes, newline - in all multilie textfields
Ctrl-Enter, no, it does not have a consistant meaning, and if it does, please do enlighten me.

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Originally posted by bach_m
OMG! 35 RESULTS!!!!

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How childish.

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Originally posted by ahtuin
I am a little puzzled by the flat refusal to consider the suggested change as worthwhile.  He is not asking for the change to be compulsory usage for everyone, only that there be an option for users to select their own particular choice of key(s).  Presumably the existing setup will remain as the default, with any changes being made through user options.  He didn't send any thoughts on how the selection might be made.

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Which is exactly why I am perplexed by this refusal, I do ask Patchou to reconscidder and/or back his arguements properly so that we may follow in his logic and understand why his choice is what it is.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
PS: and on the "doom"-keys... even for righthanded people (keyboard on left hand, mouse on the right) the arrow keys are number 1 choice! There is nothing ackward about it... Keys like "AWSD" in games are made because of the possebility of playing with two people at the same keyboard (player 1 uses the arrow keys, and player 2 the laternative keys (eg awsd"))

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Arrow keys are not the nr1 choice, they are the logic choice. For gamers, it has, after lots of experience, become more than clear that the space between your hands which is larger when using the QZSD (azerty) keys rather than the arrow keys gives you a very large accuracy benefit in controling the mouse and offers you a more dynamic access to other alternative keys around the main control keys. Arrow keys were used in old games because of the logic, experience learned gamers that they are not optimal, so games which offered customisation were customised in a way to optimise the gaming experience. Since you're most likely not a "hardcore" gamer, just like me, frankly, you probably don't really understand how those keys could be more handy. But trust me, they are.
And this isn't as much off topic as you would believe, because it very beautifully illustrates how customisation can result in optimisation of usage. We all need standards, and we all need to comply to them to understand each other and keep the order around us. But defaults are what should learn us standards, when people decide defaults aren't suitable for their needs, then they should have the right to personalise them. Hence why so many experienced users prefer Linux/Litestep/..., only because windows offers them a too limited range of customisations. Just as is the case with the existance of tweaking sites, and how everybody who knows how to control their pc a little, wants to tweak & personalise it.

~lhun

Edit./
If Patchou really refuses, then you can always do it by downloading a program that can send keystrokes on Ctrl-Enter in a specific WindowClass.. =/

in windows it's the enter key that "enters" the stuff. shift + enter makes a new line. and lets say you need to type a msn fast, won't enter key be easier? but somehow i don't use a new line often on msn.

unreal tournament 2004: does anyone play it? wasd are the standard keys. i rather use them for up down left right as the weapon number keys are just right on top. it's a long stretch from the arrow keys to the numbers. but i don't know about other games. ut2004 is just built for the left hand on keyboard on right hand on mouse

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Originally posted by FrozernFire
I rather use them for up down left right as the weapon number keys are just right on top. it's a long stretch from the arrow keys to the numbers.

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Exactly my point. =)

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Originally posted by lhunath

   ...a whole lot of sense....

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Wow, thanks lhunath! I was beginning to think that I was going to hit a brick wall of hostility on this whole matter.  You managed to sum up the whole issue very eloquently.  I note no one has made any counter against it.

Patchou has made his judgement that he won't do it, and that's entirely his perogative.  Who knows, maybe it simply can't be done. Like I say, I'm no Windows developer.

As for the 'standard' way that Windows does things, no end of these ways are customisable.  For instance, the mouse.  By default, the left button is the primary button, it does things like selecting. The right mouse button traditionally brings up a context menu.  In the 'Mouse' section in Control panel however, you can SWAP these two actions.  You can even reconfigure the behaviour of the mouse regarding double clicking, so you only need to single click on icons.  The defaults are undoubtedly the most common settings, and if you go to a computer where it is set differently to how you like it, it can be strange.  But the option exists for the user to set things up as they want.  So even this 'standardised' UI is customisable.

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Originally posted by QWasson
Patchou has made his judgement that he won't do it, and that's entirely his perogative.  Who knows, maybe it simply can't be done. Like I say, I'm no Windows developer.

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Originally posted by Patchou
Well, Plus! could do this but unfortunately I won't do it

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Sadly.

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Originally posted by QWasson
Wow, thanks lhunath!

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You're welcome, only just defending the truth. =)