Shoutbox

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Originally posted by traxor

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Originally posted by Devilin
I've tested the program itself in a variety of ways, letting different anti Spyware programs take bites out it, in one scenario I ended up formatting, because of the instability problems,

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Its your own fault for doing this, it is clearly instructed not to use spyware removal programs, therefore, you put your computer at risk, not patchou's fault..... It won't be stable, nothing will if ad-aware programs take registries and files from it..

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Of course its my own fault, it was a deliberate exercise in testing various scenarios, I deliberately tried for the worst case scenario, and succeeded, my computer became so unstable I needed to format it

My point was, what if this wasn't somebody's fault, it just happened through circumstances beyond their control,

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

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Originally posted by Devilin
Could you please name lots?  Specifically,

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program-wise, no I can't, because I don't installed that much freeware to begin with, but I have come across them regulary. Also, the security box is used on tons of websites, including forums (like mess.be), sites to register passwords (like msn, passport, ebay, ...), etc... etc...

In other words, it is not because you didn't come across such boxes that it is a rare/unusual method. Facts are that it is a very commonly known/reconized method (also the reason why nobody ever complained about it)....

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Yes there used on forums , to prevent bot's from registry, but uninstalling programs?  No this is not common practice, even in freeware programs, and I've tested lots, this is highly unusual, unless you can point out specific programs that use this method of uninstalling, my original statement stands, and will not be swayed by I'm sure lots do, without proof to back this up, Soz CookieRevised

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Originally posted by Patchou
Wrong. AVG detects the setup of the sponsor program when Messenger Plus! extracts it during setup (and I just installed the latest version of AVG Free just to be sure). Again, there's absolutely no reason for any antivirus or antispyware to detect my software as being dangerous as it is not. In fact, the major problem is that on some sites (like on yours apparently), the instructions focus on "you got Messenger Plus! ? here is howto get rid of it" instead of starting with an explanation message, stating that Plus! comes with an optional adware program and that you may have installed it. Sites like yours make Messenger Plus! look like a virus and that's what creates the wrong impression and forced be to create the facts page a couple of days ago (I have nothing against the fact that youshow how to remove my sponsor program, but itwould be faire if you gave a little more information about the product)

And once again, you cannot, under any circumstances and in all logic, hold me responsible for things your various anti-spyware programs have done to your computer.

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Patchou, I assume your differentiating between your program and the sponsor program, although there combined unless somebody clicks no ?,  this would lead to a very long and drawn out exploration, which I'm sure somebody just wishing to uninstall messenger plus, wouldn't wish to read, although your correct, about the statement itself I shall amend it, the thing about uninstalling messenger plus, and its sponsor program, I would consider a good idea, because of the dangers of conflicts, with anti Spyware programs,

Say for example, somebody install messenger plus, six months later they install anti Spyware software, would you expect them to remember every line of text in the agreement six months later?, messenger plus is potentially a dangerous program when mixed with anti Spyware programs, unless you manage to resolve this with  anti Spyware writers, I consider uninstalling messenger plus the best advice, unless you have a convincing argument against this advice

I don't hold you responsible for anything, and there not my anti Spyware programs, I didn't write them honest

And please don't hold me responsible for anything, I'm a product of social conditioning, and I therefore not responsible for my own actions

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If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet

? is this acceptable?  Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur

Please Devilin, do NOT post more than one message in a row.
Double posting is against the forums rules, so posting 4 times in a row is too much

thanks

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Originally posted by Devilin
If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet

? is this acceptable?  Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur

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why dont you mention that installing the sponsor program is optional, and if they dont install it, they wont have any kind of problem with these anti-adware programs?

Messenger Plus! andits sponsorare not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVGdetects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.

If someoneinstalls an anti-adware program 6 month after installing Plus! and its sponsor, I assume that the sponsor really didn't bother him/her at all (which is the case for a lot of people until when one of their friend tell them that a software like Messenger Plus! is dangerous to their computer). Messenger Plus! is not dangerous in any way and neither is its sponsor. They are advertisements, not viruses and they are not more dangerous than theads you're forced to watch on TV every 15 minutes.

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Originally posted by Chrono
Please Devilin, do NOT post more than one message in a row.
Double posting is against the forums rules, so posting 4 times in a row is too much


? is this acceptable?  Assuming that certain anti virus programs, contain anti Spyware scripts, and future conflicts may occur

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why dont you mention that installing the sponsor program is optional, and if they dont install it, they wont have any kind of problem with these anti-adware programs?

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No quad posting , soz Chrono

The reason I didn't mention it, was purely based upon assumption, I assumed that anybody visiting a  how to uninstall page was having problems, therefore the sponsor program was installed, so sticking in some text saying, you wouldn't have had these problems if blar blar blar, wouldn't be helpful, and could just aggravate an already enraged person, i.e. if you see somebody trip over something while out walking, you wouldn't run up to them and say, you didn't want to do that, you should have looked where you were going, its all your fault, you'd just help them up, assuming they could work out for themselves they should have looked where they were going, because to do otherwise would be insulting, and I wouldn't wish to insult my visitors, I wouldn't wish to insult anybody for any reason


Patchou

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Messenger Plus! andits sponsorare not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVGdetects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.

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I'm not sure this is an entirely accurate statement Patchou, I'm sure the message plus program, and sponsor program were combined in the same zip file, and the installation of the programs themselves, was also combined in the same installation program,

I hope I didn't give the impression that I considered either message plus or its sponsor program as dangerous, because there not
I was just pointing out, they become dangerous when security software is involved, it is a problem, and until this problem his address, my advice to anybody would be, don't use message plus/sponsor program,

Patchou I'm sure you realize these problems will affect people, and blaming , either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it, leaving you and your uses in an awkward position, until you find the solution

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Originally posted by Devilin
The reason I didn't mention it, was purely based upon assumption, I assumed that anybody visiting a  how to uninstall page was having problems, therefore the sponsor program was installed, so sticking in some text saying, you wouldn't have had these problems if blar blar blar, wouldn't be helpful, and could just aggravate an already enraged person

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Wrong assumption... Chrono meant in the first place that you should mention it is optional, that's the important bit.

If you don't which to add "if you didnt install it, blahblah" then fine. This indeed can be seen as putting more oil on the fire. But again stick to the facts: mentionning that the sponsor is optional is nothing more then a fact and will not make angry persons more angry and will certainly not insult your visitors...

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Originally posted by Devilin

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Originally posted by Patchou
Messenger Plus! and its sponsor are not combined in any way and even AVG doesn't detect them as is. What AVG detects is one of the files installed by the sponsor setup.

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I'm not sure this is an entirely accurate statement Patchou

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Again a wrong assumption of your part. If you don't believe it, did you even tried it yourself to find out? Patchou knows about what he's talking about, don't you think...

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Originally posted by Devilin
I'm sure the message plus program, and sponsor program were combined in the same zip file, and the installation of the programs themselves, was also combined in the same installation program

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If you actually research and find out yourself, you will see that the setup of Messenger Plus! isn't detected by AVG. It is only when you've installed Messenger Plus! (and thus everything is "extracted") that AVG will give a warning about one of the sponsor files. (and if I may add: a warning which only the free scanner AVG gives. All other virusscanners do not detect it! Why? Because the warning from AVG is a false warning and is not correct; there is no trojan in the sponsor program)

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Originally posted by Devilin
I hope I didn't give the impression that I considered either message plus or its sponsor program as dangerous

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Not realy, but some people might think so. But the main thing is that you post (wrong) assumptions instead of facts.

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Originally posted by Devilin
Patchou I'm sure you realize these problems will affect people, and blaming, either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it, leaving you and your uses in an awkward position, until you find the solution

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The biggest problems are false assumptions and wrong information spread on the internet. If everybody would stick to facts there wouldn't be such big problems.

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If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off, you may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider, messenger plus as a potential virus trojan spyware Addware, messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur----disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet

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At least fix your punctuation it will make things much more clear for people:
"If you're using any anti-Spyware products, that continuously scan, turn them off. You may wish to turn off any scanning software that may consider messenger plus as a potential virus, trojan, spyware or addware. Messenger plus doesn't contain harmful material, but conflicts may occur."

Also this is of no use and doesn't make any sense:

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Disconnected yourself from the Internet if you do this, and turn them on before you re-connect to the Internet

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why should people disconnect? There is no internet activity at all when you uninstall Plus! or it's sponsor. This line is of no use what-so-ever and is confusing and wrong information.

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1. re-Install Messenger Plus / msgplus / click yes to everything

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In PM I've asked to add: "1. re-Install Messenger Plus / msgplus with the sponsor program"

Why did you make it "click yes to everything"? This may seem the same to you but it isn't. Agreeing to the sponsor isn't done by clicking "yes"; Yes to what? Agreeing with the sponsor or don't agreeing to the sponsor? You see, this is not the same. So can you change that to "with the sponsor program".

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All Done, restart your computer, and turn on all scanning software before connecting to the Internet

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This doesn't make sense and is also placed in a confussing way. You post the explaination of each image above the image and this line is beneath the last image. So do they need to restart their computer again? No... Furthermore, like said before, your connection to the internet has nothing to do with the (un)installing of Messenger Plus!, nor with the sponsor, nor with disabling scanning software. In short that line is not needed and very confusing.

If you whish to create an uninstall guide, stick to the facts and don't twist things around or don't make assumptions which are incorrect.

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Under the title " Rumor once installed, the sponsor program is extremely hard to remove " under the title facts it then proceeds to explain how easy it is to uninstall, and blames anti-Spyware programs for any problems that occur, and Patchou the programs author suggests you should make complaints to the anti Spyware programs, about only partly installing the messenger plus program, Patchou neglects to mention, the unusual security code box, in the uninstall procedure, designed to ensure only humans and not other programs uninstall messenger plus making it virtually impossible for any anti Spyware program to successful remove messenger plus, and if this unusual security measure was removed, the better anti Spyware programs would probably easily remove messenger plus,

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Again, at least fix your punctuation (like what's up with all the comma's?) and gramar:

"Under the title "Rumor once installed, the sponsor program is extremely hard to remove" it proceeds to explain how easy it is to uninstall, and blames anti-spyware programs for any problems that occur. And Patchou, the programs author, suggests you should make complaints to the anti-spyware programs about only partly uninstalling the messenger plus sponsor. Patchou neglects to mention the unusual security code box in the uninstall procedure, designed to ensure only humans and not other programs uninstall messenger plus's sponsor. Making it virtually impossible for any anti-spyware program to successful remove messenger plus' sponsor. And if this unusual security measure was removed, the better anti-spyware programs would probably easily remove messenger plus' sponsor."

Also note that not one single anti-spyware program attempts to remove Messenger Plus!. Even if you insist in putting this personal opinion about Patchou's "propoganda" on your page, at least get the facts strait. Facts which even the anti-spyware programs and their makers don't question.

If you wish to express your concearns and believes about Patchou's "propganda", at least get the unquestionable facts strait.



And another note why this section of your page isn't quite valid:
Another one of those facts is that it is _not_ the security box that is limiting the anti-spyware programs to succesfully remove the sponsor. Even if it was not there, the anti-spyware program will still not be able to uninstall the sponsor for the sole reason that those anti-spyware programs do not execute external programs and will never do for obvious security reasons. To remove the sponsor, a program _needs_ to execute the uninstall procedure as that is the only way to delete the random named files that may be created by the sponsor.

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We are not here to censor your page, or to alter your views. You have every right to post your own opinions, like everybody else. The only thing we wish is that things put on pages like yours is accurate and isn't based upon assumptions which, after you properly research them, turn out to be wrong.

You came here to ask if the page is good. We didn't flame and cursed you, but only pointed out the mistakes you've made. Think about it in another way: If your page was valid and totaly correct, we can use it to link to it if users have problems, which would also benefit you as you have google ads on your page. But we wont use it if it contains false assumptions and suggestive information.

Cookie summed up everything very properly so I won't add anything except for:

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blaming , either the user or the security programs, won't resolve this issue, it will just perpetuate it

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true, however it still doesn't change the fact that as a developer, there's stricly nothing I can do to prevent another software from deleting the files from my sponsor package. The only thing I could do would be to detect Adaware (for example) and kill it while installing Plus!, which of course, would be totally unapropriate . Appart from that, anythignelse is upto the anti-spyware companies. Theyarethe one who are creating the mess, they are the only ones who can solve the situation but as I said in my facts page, it's easy for them not to do a thing as almost everybody automatically points a finger to the adware itself. I never saw anybody complaining about Adaware causing problems on their system. This kind of software could almost delete the entire content of your Program Files directory and it would still be the fault of some adware. People got to open up their eyes a little. After all, while they're at it, why don't they just format your HD directly to get rid of the adware? you said ityourself, you had to reformat your system after the damage some of these tools made on your system.

btw, thank you for taking the time to have a nice and intelligent discussion, it is surely refreshing .

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If you actually research and find out yourself, you will see that the setup of Messenger Plus! isn't detected by AVG. It is only when you've installed Messenger Plus! (and thus everything is "extracted") that AVG will give a warning about one of the sponsor files. (and if I may add: a warning which only the free scanner AVG gives. All other virusscanners do not detect it! Why? Because the warning from AVG is a false warning and is not correct; there is no trojan in the sponsor program)

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Vet Antivirus, also known as Etrust by Computer Associates detected the Sponsor Program as a trojan on my system

http://www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=14461

I have also seen reports that Trend Micro does the same.

http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/defa...me=TROJ_SWIZZOR.AZ

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
why should people disconnect? There is no internet activity at all when you uninstall Plus! or it's sponsor. This line is of no use what-so-ever and is confusing and wrong information.

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I have done some further testing.

Twice I have installed Messenger Plus! and the Sponsor Program and rebooted.

Twice I have uninstalled Messenger Plus! and the Sponsor Program after rebooting.

Twice, after running uninstall, with MSN Messenger shut down during the entire process, my firewall has warned me that:

'Messenger Plus!' from your computer wants to connect to 64.62.180.101, port 80

A whois check of 64.62.180.101 reveals...

Hurricane Electric HURRICANE-4 (NET-64-62-128-0-1)
                                  64.62.128.0 - 64.62.255.255
C2 Media Ltd HURRICANE-CE1076-491 (NET-64-62-180-96-1)
                                  64.62.180.96 - 64.62.180.127

What is your explanation for this?

Probably that C2Media is trying to contact its own server to get the necessary files to do an uninstallation (that's only a guess but that's the most logical explanation). If you block a software (any software) from doing what it's supposed to do, then you can't complain if the result is not what you expected .

As for anti-viruses that detect the sponsor's setup as a trojan, they are just crappy programs in hope to justify their existence. It looks good to say "I detect more viruses than the other". This is pure and unjustified diffamation which is another proof everybody should use a professional anti-virus solution.

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Originally posted by Sam Spade
What is your explanation for this?

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Remember that C2 Media hosts msgplus.net.

64.62.180.101 looks like the msgplus update server.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

We are not here to censor your page, or to alter your views. You have every right to post your own opinions, like everybody else. The only thing we wish is that things put on pages like yours is accurate and isn't based upon assumptions which, after you properly research them, turn out to be wrong.

You came here to ask if the page is good. We didn't flame and cursed you, but only pointed out the mistakes you've made. Think about it in another way: If your page was valid and totaly correct, we can use it to link to it if users have problems, which would also benefit you as you have google ads on your page. But we wont use it if it contains false assumptions and suggestive information.

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Quite a reply CookieRevised, if you'd like me to reply to every comment made, I'll be happy to, although it might become quite lengthy

I'll try to reply to two of the more pertinent points, CookieRevised, and thanks for the spell grammar check, I'll certainly use it

I'm dyslexic thus the bad grammar and spelling

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We didn't flame and cursed you

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my original attempt at posting on this forum resulted in the topic being closed by Patchou, although the majority of responses were pleasant, one individual, did flame me, and suggested without provocation that I was quote "dimwitted"

So to be purely factual and honest, instead of saying "For more information and assistance, on messenger plus, visits the messenger plus forum "
I should say, message plus forum, where your likely to receive have a hostile and confrontational reception,
I chose, not to print the entire facts, are you suggesting I should, without compromise ?

This is all about compromise CookieRevised


The Interpretation of facts, can be a tricky business, nothing is set in stone, its all open for interpretation, which is why I'm here, there's two opposing views, the one in which messenger plus/sponsor program, is wonderful, and anybody whom tries to say anything differently, is evil and nasty, with the other opposing view, where messenger plus/sponsor is evil and nasty, and destroys peoples computers,

I could happily build a page with either interpretation, and make it entirely factual, I'm trying to build a page, which considers both sides, which is why I'm here, to get your side, and no other reason
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Patchou,
programs have been re-defined, by the anti Spyware committee, there not baby eating monsters, honest, the vast majority are decent people wishing to help others,
have you had correspondents with any of them? spybot ? etc.
I haven't investigated your sponsor, or looked at the Code side, of their program, assuming its a good Clean addware program, with no sinister side to it, I'm sure something could be worked out,

I,ll udate the page a bit and see were we go form there