Shoutbox

Hello there.

This is a matter that should not be discussed in such a superficial way.

To start on, I believe that even KeyStorm, from Spain, noticed that there is no translation for "restaurante" from brazillian to portuguese, because it's the same word on both countries. I felt extremely shocked and offended when you posted "Casa de Pasto" as our translation. I mean, naming restaurant as a cow sty (chiqueiro), or cow granary (celeiro onde as vacas comem)? It's undoubtly a clear hostile attitude and not a mistake as you want us/others to believe. And that's not only because it's obviously wrong, but you are, as you several times claim to be, a medical doctor which leaves me petrified seeing that as such an experienced person, you have so poor knowledge of the portuguese language and country. And I'm not referring to exhaustive knowledge like how many flags we had throughout the history, but at least have the capacity to use common sense to search if the "translation" for restaurant or anything else exists, and if so, if it is so offensive as that one you referred to...
I'm not a doctor, but 2 years away from being an mechanical engineer, if you're so interested in knowing the graduation of those you are talking to, and i assure you i know a great deal about the brazilian language, costumes, history, habits, and also my common sense wouldn't let me post such dramatic and offensive words as yours, anywhere.

Using a very simple document comparing software (http://www.grigsoft.com/wincmp3.htm), it's clear for anyone two things a) the differences are in fact rare and not significant (if you know how to read the language) and b) you didn't make a translation by hand from zero, but adopted and modified the official portuguese one. And I shall explain now.

The differences between our languages are more on the way they’re spoken and less on how they’re written.
For example, words like "contacto", "activar", "actualizar", in brazillian are written "contato", "ativar" and "atualizar" because the tonic syllable (I don’t know if this is the correct way to say this in english, it’s the syllable of every word that is louder that the others) on those words is said with more emphasis in Brazil than in Portugal, and so that's why the "c" disappears in such words when speaking, but must be there in order to be gramatically correct. Anyway, it's presence on those words will definitely not make brazilians don't understand it's meaning.
There's also the difference on the "status" translation, where we have "estado" and you reverted it to "status" again. Well, it's known that in Brazil many words are adapted (or realy are) from the english, like that one could probably be, and I believe that way you can more easily understand what it's referring to, but there are some reasons not to use it, namely a) there's a clear translation, so there's no reason not to translate it, b) the whole translation is supposed to be read by any kind of people, including doctors and children that only know it's mother language and c) the whole translation must be absolutely formal, direct to the point, and in absolute conformity with the grammar (I must also add that our translation is checked by a certified and experienced portuguese teacher apart from the team, so I can honestly tell you that our translation would certainly fit on any iso-certification rules )
Another difference is the "file" translation. We have it as "ficheiro" and you changed it to "arquivo" (archive). Well, obviously "ficheiro" is the most correct way to translate "file". Not only mixing file with archieve is not correct, because they mean different things, but if in some situation we actually need to translate the word "archieve" I think that using the same translation to two different situations, when there's the possibility to have them different, is not wise. And worse, changing everything would let many users confused.
One last difference is the "password" translation. For this word we actually had to search for some opinions before deciding to use "palavra passe". You changed it to "senha", which is also correct and it's even smaller than our final decision, but the reason not to use it is that "palavra passe" is more accurate to the situation, "senha" is not so catchy for first-time users and less experienced users on computres, not to mention that other portuguese software’s use "palavra passe" so we decided to keep the uniformity on this one.
After talking to some brazillian friends, the only actual difference to their way of speaking by looking to our translation is just the "c"s which is, in their own words, "irrelevant".
Your file also has some other minor changes that do not change at all the meaning or the structure of what we had on the Portuguese file, not making it any more understandable than what it already is.

The authenticity of your file is also non existent and fake, which for me and the Portuguese translation team could by itself be the only reason not to declare your file as an authentic brasilian translation. And I mean this because for someone that doesn’t know the language, there’s like 80% of your file that is similar, I mean, it’s the same translation that we did. And no, it’s not, by far, a coincidence. I noticed especially several very difficult parts that were assigned to me on some translation sessions, and I found them in the exact same way on your file. And some others that had to be discussed within the team are also in the very same way. And there are some reasons for almost everything that has the same translation on your file, and it’s not because it’s a coincidence, a) we invested many time reflecting and searching for the best words for each sentence/situation and it would be impossible for you to reach the same conclusions because you don’t master the language, b) you’re a different person, and different persons solve problems in different ways, so if I was someone else probably the final result could be different from what it is now and c) I know that in several lines a brazilian person would suggest doing the translation in a different way, but only in some of them you actually changed the content.
So you copied our work and adapted it to your needs, without even respecting the amount of work we had to solve every translation line, taking the best parts of it and the two or three parts we still are not sure if they will keep translated like that. I do not consider good sense, just not to say something worse, to come here and claim to have done “authentic” work on the file from scratch and willing it to become official. It’s not honest for your consciousness and your country.

Other important fact is the file structure. I don't know if you got to read the translation guidelines (http://files.msgplus.net/data/TranslationGuidelines.doc) because there are some entries that are in violation of some rules, which may led to corruption when loading the file and/or the entries with those errors when windows are opened. One example is: "CurrentLanguageA=Português (Brasil)", if you read the guidelines, you’ll find the mistake here.
Also to mention that this transl... adaptation was made without the care and sensibility  that is supposed to, because there's some entries that are bigger than it's supposed to, so they can't be completely read on the respecting windows.

There was, in fact, an official brazilian version on Plus! some years ago, I think around version 2.20. No one here in this forum knows why it suddenly stopped to be updated, but if after all this time there were no claims or demands for its coming back, this is one more proof that our work serves both nations with plenty satisfaction, without complain from any of them. And I can assure you, I can’t proof right now because I don’t have the time for that, that at that time (kinda repetitive!) both translation had a completely different structure. At that time it was in fact an authentic, impartial and unique team work, that obviously had everything correctly translated but anyone could see that there was no rip-off of any of the parts.

The 500 downloads that your file had in the last months is, of course, a number that allows us to reach some accurate conclusions about the opinion of users that come here to get it.
Those downloads do not directly mean that there is in fact people needing your file, because not only there’s the possibility that there are people that always look for a brazilian translation of the softwares they’re using probably without noticing there’s a “portuguese” one lower in the language list, but also there’s the chance that they are actually looking for a brazilian translation (and I don’t think it’s for the needing, but more the curiosity). And even if they need it, when they get into this forum and download your file, I don’t know what do they think about it but I assume they feel pretty neutral about it. Nothing very different from the original Portuguese file is present there. And I say this because on those 500 downloads there wasn’t ever one single person reporting it’s opinion that in fact there are deep (or superficial!), crucial differences between both language files, and so I conclude that adding your file would be, at least, redundant.

Just one last curiosity. There are much more writing differences in American English and British English than in our case. Just by remembering TV series, movies and sports, I can recall dozens of words that mean the same on english and american, but are differently written. For example, in the form of British/American: flat/apartment, tarmac/asphalt, lawyer/attorney, pub/bar, post/mail, note/bill, draw/tie, garden/yard, tyre/tire, catalogue/catalog, theatre/theater, analyse/analyze and the most famous colour/color and license/licence.
There are also many differences on the spelling of past tenses of verbs like dreamt/dreamed, strived/strove, which is a major difference that isn’t even enough to create two English language files, that doesn't happen in the brazilian-portuguese case where you’re only talking about synonyms that are known on both places.

I had said this before and I repeat it again, you didn’t translate this software, you ripped off our work. You are not respecting, and even violating, the devotion we gave to our work and it is not acceptable that you get credited for doing a find/replace job under our file and claiming for its authenticity.

With best regards,

Gonçalo Ferreira

Well thanks for this exhaustie and somewhat personal analysis of the file that gets to very interestings and unknown facts to me. I must say I can speak some Brazilian portuguese (I mean with Brazilian phonetics), but not that far. I think I'd know about "casa de pasto" because it would sound very peculiar and certainly funny for Spaniards (where "casa de pasto" has the same meaning of "sty house"), who would very probably make fun of that now and then.

But it isn't, as it seems, and all of Heyder's points have been replied and beaten, so I think this discussion should end sometime soon.

Heyder, if you want to make a real Brazilian Portuguese translation, have some mates join the group, assign tasks, and translate directly from English, like all us did and still do. As far as we should be concerned, there should be a real monitoring by Patchou who would certify the nuber of users your translation has, because the download stats could be faked easily (I'm being very skeptic and stern, now, no offence intended). So well, you should remake the translation and do a proper job.


And btw,

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Originally posted by Gonçalo F.
tonic syllable

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Heavy Syllable is the correct form.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm

These are the current language stats. Quite some time ago, languages who dropped under 1000 users were pruned from the official package. I'm not sure about how many udownloads would be required to add that translation to the package, but surely at least more than 1000. Also the stats should be treated and monitored more accurately by the server administrators.

Patchou pruned a number of languages because they wasted an excessive space in the package and some seemed not to be used. Still all these can be downloaded from your localized page at http://www.msgplus.net

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Thank´s KeyStorm for your information.

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And a personal advice: Instead of aggresively advertising your translation, you may make a translation that proves for itself to be worth the addition.

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Thank´s for advice. I am not only understanding the "Instead of aggresively advertising"... Please, don't judge badly.  My idea is not to be aggressive in my words; I am just asking in an insistent way that my translation for the Portuguese from Brazil is accepted as official translation.  It is only that!

In any way, thank you.
Heyder.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well thanks for this exhaustie and somewhat personal analysis of the file that gets to very interestings and unknown facts to me. I must say...

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Dear KeyStorm:

Once again thank you because their posts have been equilibrate and their words have not been aggressive with me. In relation to the "very interestings and unknown facts", be careful! They are not conclusive so. The Mr. Gonçalo judged me mistakenly and was skittish in their affirmations.

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But it isn't, as it seems, and all of Heyder's points have been replied and beaten, so I think this discussion should end sometime soon.

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I have been insistent, it is true, but as I say to you previously, only just with the purpose of favoring the Brazilian peoples that use the Messenger Plus!.  I continue thinking that a people have the merit (earn) of have a free program translated for your born language, even that, under the optics of some, the differences are few or that "give for understand"...   However, if you think it is being tiresome, I can only to post the translation for download.
(I am joke, don't have the intention of you to offend!)

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Heyder, if you want to make a real Brazilian Portuguese translation, have some mates join the group, assign tasks, and translate directly from English, like all us did and still do. As far as we should be concerned, there should be a real monitoring by Patchou who would certify the nuber of users your translation has, because the download stats could be faked easily (I'm being very skeptic and stern, now, no offence intended). So well, you should remake the translation and do a proper job.

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Mr. Gonçalo judged me mistakenly. I sorry if our languages are similar - but no same - and it seemed for him that heve many coincidences in my translation. He affirms that I plagiarized your translation and that I used their work. THAT IS NOT TRUE, even if can seem. The education that I received from my family doesn't let to act me in a such dirty way. In my comparison of "Casa de Pasto" never had the intention of offending anybody to live in Portugal. As I already said previously, I have many Portuguese friends and I like of the Portuguese people. Many things that he mentions in offensive post to justify their conclusions are superficial and are not conclusive. For instance, he said that my translation contains very big sentences that don't fit in the areas designated in the program. Of course that before posting the file for download in the forum, I test in my own Messenger Plus! and Windows and I correct all the possible flaws. Very curious... none of the 450 people that downloaded the file complained of that. . . to the opposite, I received eulogy... (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=45283)

Finally, I made the translation starting from the file in English using the Messenger Plus! Translator of Mr. Choli (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=11880). I had the work of translating line the line of whole the file. I spent about 1 month making that because it is my hobby to do software translations. I admit that, in some sentences I just appeal upon the file in portugal Portuguese TO SEE how it had been translated ONLY. Many times I see a similar translation to mine! Of Course! The languages are very similar!

I am extremely offended with the words and false accusations of the sr. gonçalo. I think that he is not worthy of my answer. So, I prefer to ignore him.

Thank´s for all.
Dr. Heyder

I actually can't tell who's right in this issue. But I know Gonçalo from these forums and I think (heck, I'm almost sure) he has nothing against Brazilian Portuguese translations. However, and as usual around here, there have been some failed attempts, being this one from his point of view.

I can tell he and his team work very professionally since they have more target users to please than they formerly did (mainly Portugal and Brazil, which is quite a lot of potential users). Currently, more than 647 000 individuals use their Portuguese translation, which makes more than 10% of all the users community. This is quite a responsibility for the people in charge and the work has needed more than a month, because there's much more than just translating:

-individual feature study
-feature names translations, wich need to be thoroughly discussed between members and extremely accurate to thinking of the feature itself and of the end-user
-actual translation
-correction
-careful shortcut selection
-technical testing (text fitting, shortcuts...)
-end-user testing (which is a test run by unrelated users that may not be as Messenger Plus! clever as translators, however this can be hardly done, except if you add specific testers for this area to the group, whom to legally share the translators beta)

For this I think it's a must to be a group, alone at least to brainstorm how features have to be called.

I hope you can please Gonçalo and all of us in a future introducing a well structured gorup (doesn't need to be more than 4 people) and a fully renovated translation.

If I have some time tomorrow I'll perform a diff on both files to see how far keys may have been ripped to have a clearer idea of the facts, although I can't judge the language itself.

plagiarized or not, accurate or not, mistakes or not... the fact is that the translation was removed because it had less than 1000 users.

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Originally posted by Heyder
Very curious... none of the 450 people that downloaded the file complained of that. . . to the opposite, I received eulogy... (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=45283)

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1 person saying "perfect" does certainly not mean your translation is perfect at all. In fact, it could well be someone who posted this without even looking at all the translations or even without testing it first...

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btw, I can already say that your translation does have technical errors in it. Did you read the Official Translation Guidelines? If not, I urge to do that and fix your translation. As KeyStorm said, there is much more to it then pure translating to make a proper software translation. Pure translating is only the first step of many to make your translation file acceptable.

eg:

• CurrentLanguageA=Português (Brasil)
                                     ^^ accents are not allowed and thus it should be "Portugues (Brasil)"
  
• Your file is saved as Unicode, this is not needed at all, since it doesn't contain any unicode characters.
  
• in [QuickText.Defaults] the commands can not be translated!
  
• it lacks consistancy on some points (eg: interpunction)
  
• etc.

Using Choli's Trranslator program is good for comparing. But it is not recommended to use it as the only tool to make the actual translation; there are many important comments inside the original English language file which must be followed also...

As for comparing the two (the Brazilian and the Protuguese translations), they are very very similar, and I must say that there are a lot(!) of similarities. Moststuff in your translation is literally what I have found in the Protuguese translation (minus some changed words) or with some other grammar but using the exact same words.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
I actually can't tell who's right in this issue. But I know Gonçalo from these forums and I think (heck, I'm almost sure) he has nothing against Brazilian Portuguese translations...

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Ok, KeyStorm, I understand. I accept the concept that you have of Mr. Gonçalo. You know him, me not. However, to offend me in the way that he did, just because he finds a lot of coincidences in my translation, it is at least, lacks of a good education.  To accuse somebody only for evidences can to generate legal process for slander.

Thank you for the information of as the translation group acts. Really, are many items to be observed. I don't really have conditions of to gather a group of people for this work. I make translations alone and I sometimes receive my wife's help that it is also medical doctor. Always I have some time free at night and a weekends, but not is enough for a work so serious as you described for me.

Therefore, I will make the following: come on stop this discussion. I will continue posting my translation in the forum for all the peoples interested Brazilians. Who desire can make the download. If any day a group of people to appear interested in assuming a commitment with Mr. Patchou in the official translation for the Portuguese from Brazil, you (the community of forum) discuss the subject again.

Again, thank´s for your consideration and caution in judge me.

Regards,
Dr. Heyder

I am pretty sure if you post an offer in this forum to engage experienced Brazilians to join your group, you will be able to achieve this. You actually only need IM and email contact to them. Internet offers you such ability to find people. If you're interested in keeping the translation moving on, you can find people who might want to help you.

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Originally posted by Heyder
caution in judge me

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I'm understanding this as a threat and I'm not going to accept this. I hope you missed your words and you apologise.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
plagiarized or not, accurate or not, mistakes or not... the fact is that the translation was removed because it had less than 1000 users.

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Ok, thank´s.

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1 person saying "perfect" does certainly not mean your translation is perfect at all. In fact, it could well be someone who posted this without even looking at all the translations or even without testing it first...

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You don´t understand. I receive 1 eulogy, is true;  BUT of the 450 downloads, NOBODY complained. . . it is not curious?

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btw, I can already say that your translation does have technical errors in it...

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You until it can find some errors (technicals or not) in my translation. Really, I is not a group. Besides, I am human and can wander. But the that imports is that, as Brazilian person that I am, I use my translation and it perfectly work in my Windows and Messenger Plus!  Like this, it perfectly work in my system, it will work in the systems of all the Brazilians that use the same versions of Windows and Messenger Plus!.

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Using Choli's Trranslator program is good for comparing. But it is not recommended to use it as the only tool to make the actual translation; there are many important comments inside the original English language file which must be followed also...

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Thank´s. I will make a detailed revision on the outside of the Translating program.

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As for comparing the two (the Brazilian and the Protuguese translations), they are very very similar, and I must say that there are a lot[ no parse ](!)[/noparse] of similarities. Moststuff in your translation is literally what I have found in the Protuguese translation (minus some changed words) or with some other grammar but using the exact same words.

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Ok, I respect your opinion. But I think that this is not the opinion of the Brazilians peoples, at least of the 460 that already downloaded my translation... Small details cause discomfort in the reading. Can be small details even, but are these details that make the difference between languages and people and also need to be respected.

As I told KeyStorm, will stop that discussion. From now on, I will just continue ONLY posting my translation in the forum. The Brazilians that want to use the Brazilian language can make download of my translation; the others that want use the portugal translation also free to do it.

I think that so, stop this discussion, ok!?

Dr. Heyder

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
I'm understanding this as a threat and I'm not going to accept this. I hope you missed your words and you apologise.

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No, no, no! Please! I think I didn't explain to myself correctly!
I want to say that thank your understanding with me and your balance or equilibration or consideration and care before of jugde me for evidences that other people mention. You undestand now?

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Originally posted by Heyder
BUT of the 450 downloads, NOBODY complained

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From my experience as translator we hardly receive complaints. The only complaints we usually get come from people who is actively supporting the translation and helping to improve it. Later on, these individuals are usually accepted into the translation group for they qualified testing and observation.

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Originally posted by Heyder
Ok, KeyStorm, I understand. I accept the concept that you have of Mr. Gonçalo. You know him, me not. However, to offend me in the way that he did, just because he finds a lot of coincidences in my translation, it is at least, lacks of a good education.  To accuse somebody only for evidences can to generate legal process for slander.

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Dr. Heyder, in your "oh so high-standard and high educated" world, somebody forgot to tell you that you can't "generate legal process for slander" just because someone in a forum accused you.

And for the record, and don't take it as an insult or something like that, your english isn't that good, so i personally don't think you could do an entire translation alone.

But hey, you're the doctor. "Me not."