Shoutbox

Ah yes, let's totally disregard with what the developer says, and then let's all be suprised when he gets pissed off...
What a wonderful world we live in indeed...
</sarcasm>

@ipab, raceprouk

There is still a (social) difference between reverse engineering MSN Messenger to make addons, plugins and what not, and reverse engeneer a plugin made by your fellow programmers to rip it off...

Yes, technically it is the same, but there is still something like not touching code from your friends and respect their whishes.

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Originally posted by raceprouk
It's just that people don't usually admit to reverse engineering, because it can be frowned upon. If I want to know how someone did something, I'll usually start by asking for pointers in the right direction. I don't necessarily want full code (doesn't help people to have full code), but snippets are helpful.

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I agree on that, and in that way reverse engeneering can help. But this was not the impression I get when I read:

quote:

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since i didnt have any code i couldnt steal it, i reverse engineered it.

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ARGH!!!!!!
Couldn't hold this post back...
TB! Stop that baby shit!
You are really acting like a #¤W%#¤% kid on 5 years.. You are really being to ridiculous... Sorry people, but you gotta admit he is.. Again.. As he has done before in the past... All you sarcasm and "oh no" BS...
Why wouldn't you want to help TazDevil?... Is it beacuse he wants to develope an improved version of one your plugins????... Is it beacuse you feel it would be competition?... No.. I see... You did spend much time on getting the Reloader to work as it does.. Then why didn't you spend 5 more minutes to do the improvement as TazDevil wants to do?... Or if you didn't think about it then, then do it now?... It would help the other developers a hell of lot.. It is nice to have a reloader, but it's really a pain in the ass to have to have an open conversation to reload plugins and to type in a command to reload.. this means I will have to be online on the account I uses.. But what if I want to stay offline.. If I test something, and don't want to be online.. What then?? Use my secondary account.. Yes, but then I wouldn't be able to still watch my standard account contacts, e.g. if my "under development plugin" doesn't support polygamy or craches....
The greatest would be a Reloader plugin in which you can define 2 hotkeys, one to unload plugins, and then it will keep unloaded until you press hotkey 2... Or something similar... You could have done this ages ago... And now someone wants to do it for you.. Of course giving you credits for it... But all you can say is "No"... You could have giving a better answer.. A answer he could relate to... Maybe you could have giving him a hint on what to do/where to look... Something!!! Anything but a "No" answer!!!!.. We are a god damn community, people are supposed to stick together and help eachother... We are trying to create great plugins, not #¤%#% competion... If you don't want to help and be part of the community.. Why are you here then????... We have to help eachother...
It's ok if you don't want to give out the entire source, but you could at least have spent 1 minute on giving him some hints as to what to do, of if you didn't want to do that, then you could be willing to create this reloader yourself... You might do that, I don't know.. But then you at least could have stated in your post that you would do that, so he shouldn't worry...
I know it's wrong to reverse engineere other peoples plugins... But what would you expect with an answer like that????....
You think you own the reloader plugin part because you made this smart feature to hold it until a button was clicked... NO!!!! Nobody owns any thing!!!!.... There is no competition, no nothing!!!! Just plain and simple programming.. Community.. Sharing... Making the best out of messenger.. That is what this is about... But why don't you want to help us the other developers to make greater and greater plugins?....

TazDevil:
Hope you get this running.. ... Or at least that TB will get himself together and do this thing instead, if he won't let you do it...
This will be a big help for me... ... It will at least making the plugin programming, testing and reloading a litle easier.. ...

Ah yes, Me having spent hours on getting this to work really doesn't mean a lot to you, doesn't it?
If you're going to use my work, then why don't you pay for it?
I decided to distribute this for free, but this doesn't mean I give permission to every half-arsed developer to rip out the main code and use it in his plugin.
I'm not stopping taz from making his own reloader plugin, I don't care about that. My reloader isn't making me any money at all, and to be honest I'd already forgotten about it.
But if he wants to do his own, he should do his own research, just like I did. I am in no way obligated to share my knowledge with anyone, and if I ever do share information like this, I will do so out of my free damn will.

The main problem with your 25-lines of bullshit is that you've forgotten one major thing: It's freeware, I decided to share it with the world myself, and this does not in any way force me to make it just the way you'd want it. It was provided as-is, and if you're not satisfied make your own. And by "Your own" I mean by doing your own testing, investigating, retrying, and so on.

EDIT:

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Originally posted by (CyBeRDuDe)
ARGH!!!!!!
Couldn't hold this post back...
TB! Stop that baby shit!
You are really acting like a #¤W%#¤% kid on 5 years.. You are really being to ridiculous... Sorry people, but you gotta admit he is.. Again.. As he has done before in the past... All you sarcasm and "oh no" BS...

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Ah yes, as soon as I don't just plainly accept anything thrown at me, or decide to not help out like I usually do, people always bring that up... but tell me, what's your fucking point there? It makes no bloody sense!

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Why wouldn't you want to help TazDevil?... Is it beacuse he wants to develope an improved version of one your plugins????... Is it beacuse you feel it would be competition?... No.. I see... You did spend much time on getting the Reloader to work as it does.. Then why didn't you spend 5 more minutes to do the improvement as TazDevil wants to do?... Or if you didn't think about it then, then do it now?... It would help the other developers a hell of lot.. It is nice to have a reloader, but it's really a pain in the ass to have to have an open conversation to reload plugins and to type in a command to reload.. this means I will have to be online on the account I uses.. But what if I want to stay offline.. If I test something, and don't want to be online.. What then?? Use my secondary account.. Yes, but then I wouldn't be able to still watch my standard account contacts, e.g. if my "under development plugin" doesn't support polygamy or craches....
The greatest would be a Reloader plugin in which you can define 2 hotkeys, one to unload plugins, and then it will keep unloaded until you press hotkey 2... Or something similar... You could have done this ages ago... And now someone wants to do it for you.. Of course giving you credits for it... But all you can say is "No"...

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The plugin was provided as is, I couldn't care less what you want, I was merely sharing something I created for myself. And the reason I said just "No" was that at the time I was really hung-over, couldn't be bothered to type more. And thinking back, I don't think I had to type more, I am still the developer of the plugin, and I am not obliged in any way to explain why I refuse to cooperate with something.

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You could have giving a better answer.. A answer he could relate to... Maybe you could have giving him a hint on what to do/where to look... Something!!! Anything but a "No" answer!!!!.. We are a god damn community, people are supposed to stick together and help eachother... We are trying to create great plugins, not #¤%#% competion... If you don't want to help and be part of the community.. Why are you here then????... We have to help eachother...

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You really don't get it, do you? Normally I help out, a lot more than I should be at times, and this time when I refuse, I get crap like this thrown at me? would you call that community behaviour?!

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It's ok if you don't want to give out the entire source, but you could at least have spent 1 minute on giving him some hints as to what to do, of if you didn't want to do that, then you could be willing to create this reloader yourself... You might do that, I don't know.. But then you at least could have stated in your post that you would do that, so he shouldn't worry...
I know it's wrong to reverse engineere other peoples plugins... But what would you expect with an answer like that????....

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I'd expect people to just accept my answer. is that too much to ask?
You ask me something, I refuse, and you keep on whining? that's five-year-old behaviour...

quote:

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You think you own the reloader plugin part because you made this smart feature to hold it until a button was clicked... NO!!!! Nobody owns any thing!!!!.... There is no competition, no nothing!!!! Just plain and simple programming.. Community.. Sharing... Making the best out of messenger.. That is what this is about... But why don't you want to help us the other developers to make greater and greater plugins?....

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I own the code I write. And if you disagree, then don't touch it.

well TB your reason for saying NO makes total sense now, everyone has a right to say no.

the one word answer seemed a little rude thats all and I apologise if I insulted you, I was just sticking up for Taz.

no one is saying that you are unwilling to help or anything like that since we have seen firsthand how much  you have improved over time in giving people assistance. I agree that you used to be a bit rude, but you have become a really nice and generous person, helping many people who inturn give you great respect and credit for your help. It's a give and take thing (although you give a LOT more). People get desperate when they have been doing something for a long time and getting nowhere, I think that this was the case with Taz.

Anyway i think that this post has gone on long enough, so as a final note, I apologie on behalf of cyberdude and Taz and lets stop this flame thread and move on.

Peace,
ipab.

p.s. you blocked me , it truly saddens me.

p.p.s

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Originally posted by kangie

Gotta agree with TB tbh... You say it was fine for MSN messenger to be reverse engineered, but not for TB's plugin to be.

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I don't get it.

on a side note, just because people at microsoft get paid for their work doesn't give people more justification to decompile it as opposed to another freeware program or plugin.

Taz i think it would be better if you tried to make your own from scratch

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Originally posted by ipab
on a side note, just because people at microsoft get paid for their work doesn't give people more justification to decompile it as opposed to another freeware program or plugin.

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thats not the only thing she said, read the whole thing and don't skip to conclusions

she said that because microsoft has a VERY LARGE TEAM of PROFESSIONALS that are also getting PAID, it's easier for them to code a little reloader plugin then one guy thats doing it by just reading through documentations.

"A thousand monkeys, typing on a thousand typewriters will eventually type the entire works of William Shakespeare."

Does that make the entire works of William Shakespeare the property of the monkeys too since they created it on their own?

Code is just characters typed out in a certain order so it hardly matters if you reverse engineer MSN or TB's plugins because a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters would eventually have written the same code anyway so claiming ownership of such things is rather pointless.

Good luck to TazDevil in enhancing the plugin I say.

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Originally posted by Time
Code is just characters typed out in a certain order so it hardly matters if you reverse engineer MSN or TB's plugins because a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters would eventually have written the same code anyway so claiming ownership of such things is rather pointless.

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yeah right... until I see those thousand monkeys handing over their works to the Globe Theater on the six 'o clock news, this old saying is just something used to justify stealing...

In the real world there is still something like having intellectual copyright of code. If this wasn't so, then everything, and I mean everything, would have been totally open source and nobody would care if one copy-pasted some code and claimed its own...

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On the subject of the plugin: I perfectly understand the point of TB. Though I also understand Taz' point. But if you want something to be improved you first contact the author (like you did) and explain in great detail what you want or what you want to do (and not after you say: "I cant steal it so I reverse engeneer it"). If the author doesn't agree with it, you're on your own and this does not mean stealing code, but means finding out yourself. Even how inconvenient it might be. Of course it would be good if the author gives hints or pointers to know where to start (re)searching, but he doesn't have to if he doesn't feel like it...

About helping others in the community: That's all good and well, but I also have seen at first hand that if you help somebody by even trying to teach them how to do something, they often end up simply copy/pasting the code you gave them as an example instead of investigating and learning how something is done and figgering out why that example isn't good as 'final' code.

((one for Time) "give a man a fish and he can eat for one day, teach him how to fish and he can eat his whole life". Unfortunatly many men still prefer to be handed fish each day and don't wanna learn how to fish...)

I'm not saying Taz is somebody like that, but it happens all too often. And IMHO it is that what TB also knows and doesn't want to happen and because of that reacted like he did (although giving some hints/pointers wouldn't have hurt and he apparently had a hang-over, also not a good state to give proper replies in) ...

Okay.. First off... I'd like to make a small apology to you TB...
But not fully...

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer
Ah yes, Me having spent hours on getting this to work really doesn't mean a lot to you, doesn't it?

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I didn't say anything like that.. I appricate your Plugin Reloader... I use it frequently when I experiment, and build plugins... But to be honest, I didn't think it had taken you so much time to get this working.. Therefor I didn't see this as a big deal... Sorry for that one...

quote:

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer
If you're going to use my work, then why don't you pay for it?
I decided to distribute this for free, but this doesn't mean I give permission to every half-arsed developer to rip out the main code and use it in his plugin.

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That is exactly why I joined this community, and why I myself is doing this shit, it's because we give it for free to the people... I don't want to pay for a bloddy plugin, and neither do I want to take for money for a plugin...
No it doesn't mean you give permission to everyone to steal your code... But see, my general problem with this thread all started with your "No" answer... This gave me the feeling that you were not at all interested in TazDevil making this improved Plugin Reloader... Rather it seemed you were somehow mad about it... And that ticked me off... I got the feeling that you were scared someone would use his version more than yours... Or something similar.. I don't say that was what you were thinking, but that was the feeling I got from your answer... Then afterwards you write "If you want to do it that way, go along, just don't expect me to do anything for you ever again in the future. "... This just sounded so stupid.. Sounded like something taking from a kids-series or something.. It was like saying, this means war... Yes, he did reverse engineere your stuff, and that's bad.. But hell with it.. Relax, it's a god danm plugin reloader..

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer
I'm not stopping taz from making his own reloader plugin, I don't care about that. My reloader isn't making me any money at all, and to be honest I'd already forgotten about it.

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See.. Relax.. You had even forgot about it.. Then why make such an outcry out of it?... You plugin reloader is probably one of the earliest plugins for Messenger Plus!... Does it date 2 years back?...

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer
But if he wants to do his own, he should do his own research, just like I did. I am in no way obligated to share my knowledge with anyone, and if I ever do share information like this, I will do so out of my free damn will.

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That is true... No you are not obligated to share information.. But I kinda think this lies in the "To be part of the community"... As I said you wouldn't need to share source.. Just a litle hint.. Anything but a simle "No"..

quote:

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer

The main problem with your 25-lines of bullshit is that you've forgotten one major thing: It's freeware, I decided to share it with the world myself, and this does not in any way force me to make it just the way you'd want it. It was provided as-is, and if you're not satisfied make your own. And by "Your own" I mean by doing your own testing, investigating, retrying, and so on.

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Also true.. But see, this is what I don't get.. Why hadn't you made a new advanced version of it, sometime ago?... I just think it would be plain and simple "Developer Strategy" to make something that "small" would make things so much simpler for a lot of people.. Yes, your own testing, investigating, retrying... But see, my thought was that in general this was something easy to do, it was just to get it right, just that tiny litle bit... But why spend valuable programming time on people doing the same research over and over again when 1 man could help them all in 1 single line of text(without even giving source code, and maybe a litle more than 1 sentence..)... When we instead could concentrate about throwing out some good and useable plugins... I'm sorry if I have misunderstood something in the terms of community, but I was just thinking that our objective was to create and give out some nice plugins and help eachother and be together as a team/community and not like competitors competing each other..

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Originally posted by TheBlasphemer
Ah yes, as soon as I don't just plainly accept anything thrown at me, or decide to not help out like I usually do, people always bring that up... but tell me, what's your fucking point there? It makes no bloody sense!

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Well, I haven't been much active on these boards the past 3 months.. So I don't know how much you have been around here during that period.. But before that, yes you were a great person.. you were on the board, but I don't think you were much on the Plugins part of the board, giving much help.. I don't say you should, nor do I say that you had time for it, you have and had a lot of other things to look after, and you have also seemed to help people... But I know for a fact that you being a (sorry to say it) dickhead, and you were... You can't deny that.. You have changed to a much better person on this area, but this kinda looked like a step back for you..

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The plugin was provided as is, I couldn't care less what you want, I was merely sharing something I created for myself. And the reason I said just "No" was that at the time I was really hung-over, couldn't be bothered to type more. And thinking back, I don't think I had to type more, I am still the developer of the plugin, and I am not obliged in any way to explain why I refuse to cooperate with something.

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No, you couldn't care less what we want.. See that's a problem.. We are a community!..
Ok, see you did have a hung-over.. Then that gives a reason for why you didn't want to post something "big"... But you could at least have written something like "No, not really, spent much time on getting it working, there are much research behind it, but go take a look at XXXXXXX" or something similar... Just a tiny litle bit hint.. A answer for why you didn't want to give it away.. Anything!!!!!... Just not a simple "No".. Okay, you had a hang-over, fair enough, but a few more letters could have made a big difference...

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You really don't get it, do you? Normally I help out, a lot more than I should be at times, and this time when I refuse, I get crap like this thrown at me? would you call that community behaviour?!

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Sorry about that one.. I don't know if i've been the wrong places, and I don't know if you help out alot other places(Which you probably do), and yes you have been to more help than you needed... But still, the short "No" was just not a answer someone could relate to..

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I'd expect people to just accept my answer. is that too much to ask?
You ask me something, I refuse, and you keep on whining? that's five-year-old behaviour...

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Yes, people should accept your answer.. But then give a answer we can use for something.. Like "No, I've spent much time on it, do your own research." if that is what you wanted to say...

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I own the code I write. And if you disagree, then don't touch it.

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Yes you own the code you write... But I was talking about the general part of having a pause between the unloading/loading of the plugins.. You made it sound like you had copyright on that part or something...

Sorry for this discussion/conversation... Hope this finds it ways out peacefully...