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who's apeering offline?
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CookieRevised
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RE: who's apeering offline?
both... it is a kind of invasion of privacy and there is no way to make it accurate (see rants about "Open Window Notifiers" since they work on almost the same principle)....
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05-12-2008 11:38 PM
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DejaVoo
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RE: who's apeering offline?
Thanks for your response Cookie…

I have read your rant before and it is very informative as are those on why block checkers do not work. 

I don’t necessarily want someone to make a script for these as it would make these features null and void really.
   
Anyway I guess my point was more on the question of the whole invasion on privacy issue when there are so many things already available that invade our privacy. 

I believe if there was a way around the messenger protocol someone would have come up with something already, if not on here then somewhere else. 

The bigger crime of people who ask these questions all the time is that they are being lazy and not searching the forums as these questions have been asked many times before and have been answered in great detail by all of you…

:)
05-13-2008 04:11 AM
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CookieRevised
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RE: who's apeering offline?
quote:
Originally posted by DejaVoo
Anyway I guess my point was more on the question of the whole invasion on privacy issue when there are so many things already available that invade our privacy.
like what?

There is nothing in Plus! which would invade the privacy of people.

As for Messenger itself: the 'stealing' of display pictures aren't an invasion of privacy either since you already send the display pictures to your contacts (otherwise they wouldn't be able to see them), same with custom emotions, etc.

The only thing I can think of which would be an invasion of privacy in Messenger itself is the group chat issue were a contact of you can add you to a group chat (without your approval) with other people. And thus those other people would see your Windows Live Id automatically.

Invasion of privacy is like breaking in to someone, or get info from someone which they do not want to share. If info is already automatically shared because that is how things work (eg: the display pictures) then that can't be seen as an invasion of privacy.
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05-14-2008 12:52 PM
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Aardvark
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RE: who's apeering offline?
@DejaVoo
As Cookie has kinda said, you're releasing this information (anything in your name, personal message, display picture) into the public domain - theoretically once it's out there anyone can do any thing with it - by making these things public that's the choice you have made.

I was once (from the site, with her permission) emailed by some girl in my year who had signed up to a social networking site. The email contained all her personal information, as well as a picture of her. The email was sent out to everyone on her contact list. I could be a pedo for all she knew. But it's my information to what I want with now...(if I hadn't deleted the email :P)
05-14-2008 03:08 PM
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DejaVoo
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RE: who's apeering offline?
Maybe I worded things wrong as I certainly didn’t mean that Plus invades peoples privacy, I obviously use Plus and love many of it features, I really like the skins and a lot of the scripts also….

I was giving the example of DP stealing as until I became aware of it I really had no clue that by having my picture up, someone would be able to steal it, keep it and use it as their DP which meant that anyone on their contact list could also steal it and so on...

Maybe that’s not an invasion of privacy since I had it up in the first place, maybe I was just naïve and a little uneducated. Now that I know better I simply don’t put up any pictures I don’t want others to have, a choice I can make now since I’m aware that it is possible…
       
As far as being able to see when “someone is appearing offline” or when “someone has blocked you” or who “opens a conversation window” yesterday I was wondering if all of these things were in actual fact possible and were incorporated into Plus or a script or another program would it still be seen as an invasion of privacy or just another feature. It was just a hypothetical question not an accusation or an assumption that WLM or Plus invades people’s privacy...

Damn, I didn’t mean to offend anyone…

:(
05-14-2008 03:28 PM
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CookieRevised
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RE: who's apeering offline?
quote:
Originally posted by Aardvark
@DejaVoo
As Cookie has kinda said, you're releasing this information (anything in your name, personal message, display picture) into the public domain - theoretically once it's out there anyone can do any thing with it - by making these things public that's the choice you have made.
Well, that isn't entirly true though...
There is still a big difference.

You're absolutely right that such things are send to your contacts already and thus it isn't an invasion of your privacy (if you feel it is you can disable those things and the contact wouldn't recieve them).

But that does not mean they can do anything they want with it!! It is not put in public domain at all... It is send to your contact only and should stay there unless said otherwise.

For example: when you video-chat to someone, that contact may record the video-chat, even without your approval (this isn't an invasion of privacy) but he may not distribute that video anywhere else without your approval! The same with the text/log of the chat itself, etc...

That difference is extremely important. Unfortunatly many people think that these two things are one and the same, and the one flows automatically out of the other. It is, however, majorly different.

Thus:
quote:
... But it's my information to what I want with now...(if I hadn't deleted the email :P)
Absolutely false!

She gave her permission to you (and the others) to know the information. She did not gave her permission to publish it in any way, nor to misuse it...

quote:
Originally posted by DejaVoo
Damn, I didn’t mean to offend anyone…
surely didn't offended me though. In fact, you raise good points and stuff which many people ask themselfs too and/or get wrong...

So, as for the DP example, it is the same as with a video-chat. It isn't an invasion of privacy that someone can "steal" it ("copy" it would be better since, as you know, nothing is stolen at all). However, it is not a good sign of trust that the contact will copy and/or redistribute your own made graphic just like that.

But, most of the DPs are graphics which _are_ in the public domain, so there is no real problem with those. Of course, since most of them are in the public domain, or come from the public domain, or many people don't care that others "steal" them, it is very often wrongfully assumed that _all_ DPs are public domain.

But the DP issue, for example, is an issue of copyright, which is different than invasion of privacy....

If you put up a DP which you created and it contained your telephone number: it would be an invasion of your privacy if your contact would publish that phonenumber in public, and it would be a copyright breach if he used that DP as his own.

This post was edited on 05-14-2008 at 04:52 PM by CookieRevised.
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05-14-2008 04:34 PM
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Aardvark
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RE: RE: who's apeering offline?
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised

She gave her permission to you (and the others) to know the information. She did not gave her permission to publish it in any way, nor to misuse it...

That's what I've been thinking whenever I tell the story of what happened to people, but I look at it like this: it's like giving a present to someone. You're passing it on from you to them, so it's theirs now, and they can do with it as they please. Sure it's probably completely different but looking at it like this somewhat "defuses" the whole unethicalness of altering someones picture, for example.
05-15-2008 05:08 AM
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CookieRevised
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RE: who's apeering offline?
Yes, and you should keep that in mind for your own safety and security if you send something to someone because most people will think like that... But the matter of fact is that looking at it like that is legally very wrong.

It is just the same as with downloading stuff. You may 'feel' like you don't need to pay for a piece of software or music, but it is still stealing.
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05-15-2008 09:31 AM
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Aardvark
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RE: RE: who's apeering offline?
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised

It is just the same as with downloading stuff. You may 'feel' like you don't need to pay for a piece of software or music, but it is still stealing.
I don't think it's the same as downloading music because the music is released with rules that say "it will cost you this much to purchase a copy of it." The fact I'm going out and seeking the music out I want to download, instead of having, say, the industry that produced the record mass mail a whole bunch of people with a url to a download link for the track on their server, makes it completely different to what I was talking about (I've got a gut feeling though you might've been referring to something else with the downloading of stuff though...)

I would think that "legally" since the picture was sent to me, it's not stealing at all. If that were illegal then if police raided every single person who uses msn's computers and found the messengercache folder, bang they've broken the law. :P
05-15-2008 09:39 AM
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CookieRevised
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RE: who's apeering offline?
It is the same as downloading music because when you download music you do something illegal*. When you copy other people's work (DP or a musici track) and redistribute it, it is illegal...

No matter how you feel about it, it is illegal to use other people's work without their approval, even if they send it to you.

Putting a picture on a website for everyone to see does not make that picture public domain!!! That is one of the biggest misconceptions on the net these days...







* of course I'm talking about downloading licensed copyrighted music, before anyone argues it is not...

This post was edited on 05-15-2008 at 11:27 AM by CookieRevised.
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05-15-2008 11:25 AM
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