quote:
Originally posted by WDZ
I was gonna reply to Pr0xY's bullshit, but maybe it's not worth it =p. tbh I don't watch the news enough to have an educated debate... I just have common sense. 
Common sense or just conditioned thinking? Remember WDZ, 'common sense' also once said the world was flat. Although, if you're not educated enough on the subject t/o challenge the content & make a counter arguement backed by information, facts & sources, then I suppose it is easier to just call it bullshit.
quote:
Originally posted by WDZ
I wonder if Pr0xY knows the definition of "lie" 
. "An intentionally false statement" / "A statement intended to deceive".
I wonder if you read the whole page...
Verb: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive" / "to create a false or misleading impression" -
Noun: "an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive" / "an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker" / "something that misleads or deceives"
Webster
quote:
Originally posted by WDZ
If I say I'll go to the store and buy peanut butter, but when I get to the store they don't have any peanut butter, am I a liar?
lol, It depends on whether you already knew the store was out of peanut butter before saying you'd go pick some up.
Two things I want to start off with... First, I'm pretty sure most of my information in this post is accurate & can be backed by sources, examples, ext.. If you have a question about something, just ask. Second. On accident I incorrectly worded the statistic wacky quote's me on below, so let me clarify: it's "15% of people in America",
not "15% of actual American Citizens". My bad.
quote:
Originally posted by wacky
quote:
Originally posted by Pr0xY
Only 15% of Americans do not have health insurance, and not all of those people are without because of cost or lack of availability.
my facts tell me there were 47 million Americans without it in 2008. That's not just like 5 million.. it's 47 million. And don't tell me it's not because they can't afford it.. even a friend of mine from the States was refusing to go see a doctor because it's too expensive.
Yes & No. Yes your facts are somewhat correct. No, it's definitely not 5 million, cause that would only be 1.6% of the US population. Yes it is indeed 15%, as 47 million (4.634M to be exact) is 15% of the
US population. Side note: What state in the US does your friend live in & do you know if it's too expensive for him to purchase Health Insurance or just too expensive of a out of pocket deductible?
quote:
Originally posted by President Obama (March 5, 2009)
"Even for folks who are weathering this economic storm, and have health care right now, all it takes is one stroke of bad luck -- an accident or an illness, a divorce, a lost job -- to become one of the nearly 46 million uninsured or the millions who have health care, but really can't afford what they've got." Official Source
The statistic comes from an annual report by the U.S. Census Bureau, which at the time of Obama's speech, pegged the number of uninsured at 45.7 million for 2007. The annual report is called "Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States". The 2008 report was just released last month, September (2009). Here are the reports from the past four years:
2008,
2007,
2006 &
2005. Let's just dive right in into 2008, page 28 please!!!
According to the US Census Bureau:
- There are 46,340,000 TOTAL people in America without Health Care Insurance.
- 9,511,000 of them are not American citizens.
- 17,759,000 have an annual Household Income of over $50,000 US Dollars. Of those, 9,725,000 have an annual household income of over $75,000.
- 18.9 million of the uninsured were between the age of 24-34. It's also important to acknowledge & consider the possibility that some in this age group may have decided to go without coverage simply because they are young and healthy (I know many that do this). I won't subtract part of this from the 46M total, since it's an unknown.
So now we have a somewhat more accurate count. Just over 19 million (6.3%) of American citizens without Health Care Insurance. Or is it accurate? What if the numbers overlapped? Even though I find it hard to believe that a significant amount of the 9.5M Non US Citizens may be a part of the 17.7M making over $50,000 a year, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. How about 4 million of the total 9.5M Non US Citizens are also making over $50,000 a year?
Lets call it an even 23 million (7.6% of) American citizens that go without Health Care Insurance because they cannot afford it. Only 7.6%...huh? Honestly now, do any of you 'still' believe this isn't about power & control? Cause it's definitely not about lowering an already low profit margin of Health Insurance companies, or lowering drug costs, or lowering medical supply costs, or providing competition. lol. That one always makes me laugh... LOL Government providing competition, without worrying about making a profit. ROFL....
Btw, great read..
Sally Pipes notes in the Top Ten Myths of American Health Care: A Citizen's Guide
--------------------------------
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
wiiii, let's mingle....
About the stuff Pr0xY has said:
nice way of taking things waaaaaaaaay out of context. Some Europeans (and others) also do know what they are talking about and they certainly do not see 'just' propaganda, on the contrary! I start to believe that you're looking at all those things in a very subjective way without seeing the big picture (or at least the real big picture instead of the so called 'conspiracy' picture). Not everything, but many things you've said I find bull shit too, but that's a matter of opinion I suppose....
I may have steered off subject but what have I quoted out of context?
Real journalism is alive & present throughout Europe, on a multitude of media levels (more so than the USA). Many Europeans
(and others as well) do also have solid knowledge of what they're talking about & they
may see more than just propaganda. However, I would highly dispute how many on a day to day basis actually see, hear or independently explore and follow the specific underlying details. It is an absolute necessity to have a strong knowledge & understanding on fundamental principles of these issues.
(And the United States, framers, founding documents, ext..). Otherwise, puzzle piece views and opinions will unintentionally create accusations, misconceptions & judgments.
Generally speaking though, it's always a matter of perspective for most people. My main priority is to see everything in the big picture, globally & nationally. This is why I appreciate when others step outside the box of what their culture has conditioned them to believe in, openly listen & discuss the views of others. Including at least somewhat of a solid base for their argument, to answer the "Why's?" of your view point.
I do not believe I'm looking at this in a subjective way and especially not as what many forum members have labeled as a "conspiracy" theory. Honestly, my views & thoughts of a government seeking more & more control is far from any real conspiracy theory. Like “9/11 truthers/inside job”, “JFK assignation”, “
Big Brother is
watching”, “One world government”, “US faked the moon landing”, “Globel Warming”, “Elite bankers control the world”, “Rockefeller Takeover”, “2012 World destruction”, “Free Masons”, “H1N1 released by Government for population control”… ext…
So while you may consider what I've said as 'the conspiracy picture' and think that you're aware of the 'big picture', just ready for the possibility that you're merely looking at a puzzle piece and nothing close to the "big picture".
------------------
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
So, talking about opinions...
quote:
Originally posted by Pr0xY
Obama is compared to the Nazi's because he has taken over the Banks, The car industry (And OnStar [deflate tires, stop a car anytime, track you]), the appraisal industry (if you even know what that is), taken over 4/5th of the media (they are currently shoving tons of propaganda at the citizens), wants to have total control over the internet and NOW health care (which they legally can not do, it's unconstitutional). Yeah tell me how that does NOT resemble the Nazi Socialist Party? You can't.
sorry but lol
To give an example: "Taking over the car industry"? lol. If you wanna put it that way I'd say it's about time somebody 'takes over' the car industry since it has an extremely big lobby and way too much power over what the governement does. So, if someone tries to do something about it you say they are "taking over" as if it is a bad thing. On the same time when that same guy fails in doing something because of maybe a big lobby, you say "they are corrupted and lying and owned by the lobby"; it's seem to be always the guy's fault.
In other words, you don't look at the big picture and you're blinded by your own personal opinion and beliefs and distored views about stuff and the guy in person. Not objective at all, not even in the slightest way. So who is being bombarded with propaganda in one way or the other?
lol Cookie, you are. I really couldn't help but cackle when I read this. Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed in the quality of your post. Out of seven comparisons you picked only one & used
what I think is a flaud argument, based solely on your opinions & not accurate information.
Big Labor / Unions have a huge involvement & say in US Federal Government & political issue. They help politicians get elected in exchange for them to pass new policies that favor the unions special interests.
quote:
Originally posted by SEIU President Any Stern
"We spent a fortune to elect Barack Obama-$60.7 million, to be exact-and we're proud of it."
94% of the SEIU's 2008 contributions went to Democrats.
When unions (Big Labor) were first created in the United States, they gained tremendus power by giving masses of mistreated workers the right to bravely stand up and simply fought for fairness. They didn't demand special rights, they demaned equal rights. Unfortinetely now times seem of have changed a bit. It's not 1930 anymore & US workers aren't being sent down a mine without water or a flashlight. The reason for Unions are slowly disappearing & as such, they are desperately grasping any chance of survival. Which is why Unions/Big Labor are now in bed with Big Government/politicians.
Big Labor made up twelve of the twenty top donors from 1989 to 2008. Here are those twelve.
- #2 - American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees.
- #6 - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
- #7 - National Education Association.
- #8 - Laborers Union.
- #9 - Service Employees International Union.
- #10 - Carpenters & Joiners Union.
- #11 - Teamsters Union.
- #12 - Communications Workers of America.
- #14 - American Federation of Teachers.
- #16 - United Auto Workers.
- #17 - Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union.
- #20 - United Food & Commercial Workers Union.
Source
The US Federal Government wouldn't be able to successfully run a hot dog stand. Yet you think its good that they are put in charge of so many huge parts of our economy? With so much power over an economy, they can't control it without also controlling the people.
The US Federal Government was created for very limited purposes, by the states, on behalf of 'We The People'. The American citizens hold all the power, controlling & employing the US Federal Government to carry out only the enumerated powers listed in Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution. Other then those, the rest is taken care of at the State Government level & below.
Now I've never met or heard anyone that considered the powers & limites of the U.S. Constistution as blinding propaganda, but for the sake of entertainment, please inlighten me.
----------------------
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Many people in the world (the majority actually) see Obama doing good stuff. And yes, of course he makes mistakes. Who doesn't? As Wacky has said, I'd love to see you running a governement or even a local administry and would love to see how you would cope. I'm fairly sure you wouldn't get very far with the kind of views you have.
The kind of views I have? I have the same views as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison & George Washington. Those views on the Revolutionary War & built the foundation of America. Go read a history book ya noob.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Then again, maybe I'm wrong, but at least give him some credit as he is doing very well overall. And of course, some desicions aren't going to be nice for some people. We hate it too when somebody increases the taxes over here or whatever, but in the end it is supposed to be better for everyone.
It's like, everybody wants improvements, but nobody wants to cut in their own backyard, so let's be very selfish, and without caring about the bigger picture, let's bash the guy trying todo something about it.
What's "supposed to be better" & what really happens are two different stories. The US Federal Government's budget spending has increased by over 40% since 1990. Money I worked my ass off to earn is taken away a variety of reasons, 25% of which gets handed out like candy at a parade.
So give him credit for what? Give my US Federal Big Government credit for what? If you're going to label what I'm saying as just opinion, you better counter it with something more than just other opinions. How is he doing well over all? Come on give examples. Foreign policy? The economy? Monetary policy? Monetary policy is a huge one. What is Obama doing that's great for Monetary policy? America's credit is so bad that the country is close to losing their "AAA" status.
So you're damn right. When someone manipulates the numbers like Obama did on the uninsured in America, or appoints
extremely radical advisors, I will question his motives & demand answers.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by andrey
Comparing Obama's policies to things that happened in Nazi Germany is bullshit. To follow up in your logic, Bush built a network of secret CIA prisons where people were abducted and detained without indictment and subjected to torture (waterbording, sleep/sensory deprivation, other "enhanced interrogation techniques"). [= concentration camps?]
I know Americans sometimes have a pretty distorted view of what fascism/socialism/nazism is, but what Obama is doing now is far from it. He would still be considered a moderate/right-wing politician in most parts of Europe.
Having a universal healthcare system goes without saying in modern industrialized countries, and although no system is perfect, it's better than what the US currently has.
Fearing that the US will turn into a socialist country is completely irrational, fearing that it'll become a fascist state/dictatorship under this president is just as irrational.
Couldn't have said it better.
Yes you could have. You could address the real issues. European Countries & the United States are not the same & a level of socialism in the US should never be desensitized by comaring it to Europe. Minimizing the seriousness of the issue by saying "Well Obama isn't currently 'that' left field" is naive. Should only raise the alarm if theres freedom one day & storm troopers marching in the street the next? It's not sudden change, it's slow distortion. Dribs & drabs.
Obama will not come out & say what he really want to transform the country into. Why? If they were honest about what they wanted and met on the battle field of ideas & reason, America would throw them out.
The US Federal Government is filled with a bunch of weasels & booker eating idiots. The US Congress has a approval rating in the low 20%. Just wait till the 2010 elections, you'll see how many get thrown out.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by Pr0xY
Do you not get it? It's a yes or no question, Black or white. There is no agree or disagree. We were discussing whether Obama has or has not lied. The subject has no room for self opinion. Yet you continue to argue the idiotic point that theres room for grey....
Errrr.... it is all politics. Politics is _never_ black or white. It is always gray! There is no one perfect solution because with everything you decide or do, there are always two sides and some disadvantages. Political stuff is _not_ science and will never be! It are only extremists which see everything in black and white. Even the statement itself "Is Obama lying?" (in the political context) shows a lack of political insight imho.
No, Government & politics in your country & others may always be full of grey & compromise, but that's not how it's suppose to be in my country. The major political issues are black or white, not grey. There's no room for compromise when our founding document specifically states how to handle it.
If you give government the ability to live & work in the grey, they'll try (and succeed) at deceiving (lie) & manipulating the public. At that point, they'll gain more & more power, scaring the people into thinking if they sacrifice just a little bit of their freedoms, the world will be a better place.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by Pr0xY
Many Americans have a great understanding of what fascism/socialism/nazism is. Many new immigrants from socialist countries also recognize the path Obama is taking the country & can identify it as socialism in the infant stages.
Socialism, yes maybe. But then what? Socialsm isn't entirly bad. And every form has its advantages/disadvantages. But socialism is in no way comparable to fascism or nazism. If you think it is, you clearly do not know what they are or at least have a very distorted view of them.
This is America. We're already a huge welfare state with a lot of lazy people mooching off hand outs. If we adopt Socialism, you better be real & acknowledge that it won't work out. Socialism will only last as long as the money supply does. My view of Socialism isn't distorted. I just constantly remind myself of what Socialism will become in a world filled with greed, laziness & freewill.
I'm weaving together what might appear to be disparate scenarios, but when viewed as a whole, leave you with the nagging feeling that Obama and his team are much further left than his campaign rhetoric led us to believe.
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
quote:
Originally posted by Pr0xY
The United States of America does not need to have their government provide health care for them. Our Constitution does not give the federal government the power to manage it either. Our system was working very well until the corruption of government got involved, passed regulations & restrictions (which at the time benefited the politicians). Only 15% of Americans do not have health insurance, and not all of those people are without because of cost or lack of availability.
Working very well? Sure, but for whom? There are some good things to say about it, but the majority of the world has always seen the current health care system in America as not something very well. And, as an outsider, it is good to see somebody finally trying to do something about it because it very clearly was going in the wrong way. It works very well for certain (rich) people, but there are a hell of a lot of problems for all the other people. But yes, reforming something is always painfull for some individual people, but in the end it usually turns out better for everybody.
For whom? For the world of course.
Someone from the U.S. has won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 36 of the last 43 years, or about 84% of the time. The rest of the world is feasting off America’s advancements in health care. We were able to break new ground & achieve those discoveries with a system Obama is trying to reform.
Government option?
- Live in Italy & need a mammogram? You'll be able to get plenty done in the meantime, the average wait is 70 days.
- In Great Britain, About 20% of patients with treatable colon cancer at the time of discovery are considered incurable by the time treatment is finally available.
-------------------------------------------------
The MRI and the CT scanner are rated as the most important medical innovations of the late 20th century. Where is it easiest to find one? Well lets see...
United Kingdom: MRI = 7.5 devices per million people.
United Kingdom: CT = 8.5 devices per million people.
France: MRI = 5 devices per million people.
France: CT = 10 devices per million people.
Canada: MRI = 7 devices per million people.
Canada: CT = 12 devices per million people.
United States: MRI = 27.5 devices per million people.
United States: CT = 34 devices per million people.
Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development, "OCED Health Data 2009 --Frequently Requested Data," oced.org, accessed July 2, 2009.
-------------------------------------------------
-When free health care isn't free-
Percentage of health care
cost paid out-of-pocket. All countries other than the United States have universal health care.
- Switzerland - 33%
- Spain - 23.5%
- Italy - 23%
- Finland - 20.5%
- Denmark - 15.5%
- Canada - 15.5%
- United States - 15%
- Ireland - 13.5%
- Germany - 11%
- France - 11%
Source.
Elizabeth Docteur and Howard Oxley. "Health-Care Systems: Lessons from the Reform Experience"
-------------------------------------------------
quote:
Originally posted by Discrate
Hes one of those "OBAMA LIED, EVEN THOUGH HE HASN'T LIED ABOUT ANYTHING" "OBAMA IS TRYING TO RUIN AMERICA BY PROVIDING US WITH HEALTH CARE REFORM THAT WILL ACTUALLY HELP US" people. Just got a pm off him aswell, hes a complete fuckwit.
Do you still believe I'm a complete f*ckwit that wants everyone to die? Or just someone who sees more then you (maybe too much) and is just piecing together a puzzle...
/ –
