Shoutbox

Michael Moore is an idiot. The movie has a few good points but most if it is a bunch of shit that Michael Moore pulled out of his ass. I am not saying that i support Bush because i don't and I disagree with lots of bushs decisions but the way Micheal Moore shows his Presidency isn't right.

Ah..More of you .  No, it isnt pulled "outta his ass", it is true facts.  If you paid attention to the movie, you'd see where he got the facts and how it all links together and how it is true.

Michael Moore won several awards for "Bowling for Columbine", and this movie has done far better, so I expect he'll win several more .

I think he shows Bush's presidency as it needs to be shown.  Disgusting.

Michael Moore is a genious, I have read most of his books, I even have a Bowling for Columbine poster on my wall. Unfortunatley shitty New Zealand doesn't have Fahrenheit 9/11 in cinemas so I'm trying to download it on BitTorrent. It's awesome he approves of this .

Bush can be Impeached for failing in his primary duty.  To Protect America & it's citizens.  The Senate can remove him with a 90% majority I believe.  The people can revolt & remove him aswell.

If it was up to me Bush would be no more than a dumb nobody from Texas.

Okay, I am yet to see the movie but I intend to critisise it anyway.

The events of 9/11 shattered and destroyed the lives of many Americans, as well as other people throughout the world - whether it was through the loss of a loved one, or just seeing something so horid happen. Do you really think any person would (apparent from terrorists here) want or intend to hurt these thousands of people in such a way, especially someone in a presidential position.

Yes, the Bin Laden family did run out of the United States, but if you knew someone that was involved in such an act and knew that the people wouldn't give you a chance, would you do the same? Think about it - I'm sure you would run if millions of people knew who you werem and would place the blame and responsibility directly on you.

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Fahrenheit 9/11 shows us a nation kept in constant fear by FBI alerts

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Would you rather be safe, or would you rather have a bomb dropped on your roof, or open an envelope with Anthrax in it?

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Fahrenheit 9/11 takes us inside that war to tell the stories we haven't heard

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To me it looks more like they are telling more parts of the story, not the whole story.

Read: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

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From the article:
Moore has announced that he won't even appear on TV shows where he might face hostile questioning.

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(As he is allowed to present his views of what really happened, I have every right to present my views about him.)
Too chicken to go on a television show because of questions? Why would you be scared if you had nothing to hide? Maybe because his stories might change and people will realise he is full of sh*t? Because he can't handle the fact that he is now hated by many people?

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From the article:
However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point.

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Agreed.

If you're still with me.. read this one too. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/ThisWeek/Entertain...moore040620-1.html


A friend of mine said this:

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Stephanopoulos makes a point... Moore doesn't provide any evidence for the "facts" in his movie and when asked why his "facts" can't be found in the 9/11 Commission reports he says that their reports are just preliminary and that they aren't necessarily complete.  Which leaves the idea of "How can Moore make any statements if the final reports aren't out?"

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Question:  Do you guys remember the Private Jessica Lynch story?  The one where Bush claimed she was maltreated and was heroically rescued.  Infact she was well taken care of & given 1st class Medical Treatment for her injuries (sustained in battle not by the Iraqi captors).

She came forward after coming hope denying any bad treatment & if anything placing the blame fairly on the Bush Government for lieing so blatantly to score points.

US forces use Cluster Bombs in CITIES, TOWNS & VILLAGES why?  Are they determined to kill as many people as possible innocent or not?  The US shoots at British Aircraft when AMERICAN KIT screws up.

Bush uses 9/11 Images in his Election Broadcasts which to me is an afront to all that is holy.  He is trying to use 9/11 as an Election Issue, does he not have a brain or something?  When more people realise what a con the Broadcasts are there will be huge outcries.

Michael Moore has the guts to go against the Political line to read between the lines.  Disney refused to release it (too many links with Bush there) so he had to go elsewhere.  I am not Anti American, but most Americans see a little Tax Cut that is only temporary & say "oh, lets vote for him" which is stupid, ignorant & so American.

some of the things people have said here are so so irrational...

Yes, Bush is a crap president, and has done a lot of stupid stuff, but that doesn't mean the film is right.  A few of the points dane listed are true, but we already knew those anyway.  The rest of them just scream "if you don't like bush let's make some fairytales up about him".

Firstly, 9/11.  Neither Bush, nor the government organised 9/11.  Why would they?  It hasn't earned them votes, but broken public trust because they didn't respond to a threat they were well aware of.  Generating revenue for the emergency services?  The emergency services don't generate money, they cost money government money that would otherwise be spent on things that would win votes.

Next, the theory Bin Ladens own 7% of the economy.  Firstly, we're not talking about Osama.  Many of his family have very openly disowned what he does, so I see no reason why they shouldn't be big investors.  Secondly, being a major investor does not mean they own 7% of the economy.  Not only do they not own AOL Time Warner or the Carlyle Group, but their investments cannot just be removed... it is nobody's responsibility to "keep them happy".  Once money goes into the company, it's theirs.  If anything, if it's even true, the Bin Ladens are helping keep the economy going.  However, you can't connect 9/11 to the prosperity of big companies, or of the bin ladens.  The event destroyed the offices of many companies that will have been part of the Carlyle Group and AOL Time Warner.  Those who weren't still suffered economic regression, as people became unwilling to invest in an economy that may be hit by another attack, and people became unwilling to personally use services that were under threat like the airlines industry.

Oh, and what's wrong with none of the congressmen reading the acts that they pass?  This is a grossly misleading use of the fact.  It is not congressmens' jobs to read long and complex acts.  They will have advisors and legal experts who read it and explain the effects it will have.  It is up to the congressmen to decide its resulting implications and make a decision based on that.  Get it right.

That should be enough for now to explain my reservations about this film.

, okay, this may be a big post, so much to respond to!

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton

The events of 9/11 shattered and destroyed the lives of many Americans, as well as other people throughout the world - whether it was through the loss of a loved one, or just seeing something so horid happen. Do you really think any person would (apparent from terrorists here) want or intend to hurt these thousands of people in such a way, especially someone in a presidential position.

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Yes, because as you can see, No one discovered the links until now.  His tracks were covered up WAY to much.  Add in the fact that he STRONGLY OPPOSED a 9/11 Commission

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Originally posted by Chris Boulton
Yes, the Bin Laden family did run out of the United States, but if you knew someone that was involved in such an act and knew that the people wouldn't give you a chance, would you do the same? Think about it - I'm sure you would run if millions of people knew who you were and would place the blame and responsibility directly on you.

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This is the reason they were allowed to leave the country, but they SHOULD NOT have been allowed during "Down Flights".

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Originally posted by Garndell
US forces use Cluster Bombs in CITIES, TOWNS & VILLAGES why?  Are they determined to kill as many people as possible innocent or not?  The US shoots at British Aircraft when AMERICAN KIT screws up.

Bush uses 9/11 Images in his Election Broadcasts which to me is an afront to all that is holy.  He is trying to use 9/11 as an Election Issue, does he not have a brain or something?  When more people realise what a con the Broadcasts are there will be huge outcries.

Michael Moore has the guts to go against the Political line to read between the lines.  Disney refused to release it (too many links with Bush there) so he had to go elsewhere.  I am not Anti American, but most Americans see a little Tax Cut that is only temporary & say "oh, lets vote for him" which is stupid, ignorant & so American.

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All Agreed.  These "Targeted Attacks on Terrorists" have yet to be done without killing some Iraqi Citizen.  They are not using the right force...They should use Ground Troops and THEN think about bombs if the ground troops dont work out, bombing is just going to kill bystanders.

And bush IS using 9/11 as an "Election Issue", which again, he is profiting from 9/11.

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Originally posted by fluffy_lobster

Firstly, 9/11.  Neither Bush, nor the government organised 9/11.  Why would they?  It hasn't earned them votes, but broken public trust because they didn't respond to a threat they were well aware of.  Generating revenue for the emergency services?  The emergency services don't generate money, they cost money government money that would otherwise be spent on things that would win votes.

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May I remind you that BILLIONS of dollars were raised after 9/11 to pay for the services and to pay the families?

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Originally posted by fluffy_lobster
Next, the theory Bin Ladens own 7% of the economy.  Firstly, we're not talking about Osama.  Many of his family have very openly disowned what he does, so I see no reason why they shouldn't be big investors.  Secondly, being a major investor does not mean they own 7% of the economy.  Not only do they not own AOL Time Warner or the Carlyle Group, but their investments cannot just be removed... it is nobody's responsibility to "keep them happy".  Once money goes into the company, it's theirs.  If anything, if it's even true, the Bin Ladens are helping keep the economy going.  However, you can't connect 9/11 to the prosperity of big companies, or of the bin ladens.  The event destroyed the offices of many companies that will have been part of the Carlyle Group and AOL Time Warner.  Those who weren't still suffered economic regression, as people became unwilling to invest in an economy that may be hit by another attack, and people became unwilling to personally use services that were under threat like the airlines industry.

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There is factual evidence showing that the Bin Laden family owns a large portion of AOL Time Warner and The Carlyle Group.  They invested in so much (theres more than those 2 companies, I just cant remember them, whoever watches the movie can post if they remember ) that they DO own aprox. 7% of the economy.

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Originally posted by fluffy_lobster
Oh, and what's wrong with none of the congressmen reading the acts that they pass?  This is a grossly misleading use of the fact.  It is not congressmens' jobs to read long and complex acts.  They will have advisors and legal experts who read it and explain the effects it will have.  It is up to the congressmen to decide its resulting implications and make a decision based on that.  Get it right.

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Uhh...Its the JOB of the congressman to read the bills, it is NOT the job of them to delegate others to read there bills.  Its what you call making an "informed decision".

So many BS-posts here... djeez.... I know, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but most "opinions" I see here are just so "irrational" (as Lobster kindly said).....

There is too much to react on in this thread. But for almost all "facts" that some people say in here, I can only say 1 thing: Don't be so paranoid, watch less conspiricy movies, and stop talking BS and come back to the real world.....

On 1 "fact" I'm gonna react though: "US forces use Cluster Bombs in CITIES, TOWNS & VILLAGES": That's utterly BS... They DO use groundtroops, they DONT use cluster bombs on towns... Do you even know what a cluster bomb is???? And if they do bomb, they use "smart"-bombs. True, some miss their target, but 99% of them hit the target within 10m accuracy. And no, that's not something that the bush-administry say to boost up their popularity. That's a militairy fact! Furthermore, this "war against terror" is fought IN cities. That's a whole different warfare then fighting a war in jungle, desert, open country. This is an urban-war, and that means also adapted warfare (and no use of cluster-bombs).

If they did use cluster-bombs on towns, do you think that the whole international community (of which a very big part is against the way the current "war" is fought) wouldn't know about it? Using such things isn't something you can cover-up! There are many journalists in Iraq, if they see such things, they will report it. And that's only one way of knowing these things. Another one: If such bombs are used, all the citizens will run for there life's and flee to other countries. Again something you can't cover-up...

All this said, I am against the concept of war as it is fought by America (or should I say Bush) atm. And I don't agree with most things that America/Bush is doing right now. And I also think that Bush is a very crap president. But that doesn't mean that I can fantasize about facts and make up stories (about the use of cluster-bombs for example). Also that still doesn't give me the right to twist around facts, so I can spice them up. Yes, Bush has some dodgy things on his record, he also proberly have some things on his record which only few people know about. But for crying out loud, don't believe all those conspiricy things and cover-ups and blown up facts....

Now, to eXoendo: reading all your posts in this thread I can only come to the conclussion (again) that you would believe anything they show/tell you, and in doing so you publish this on the net and blow things way out of proportion without even think about things (also see all the other old things that happend between you and the community)

The only decent, intelligent replies I fully can agree with are the ones from Chris and Lobster. All others I find rather "irrational" (and that's even said in a beautiful way).

F9/11 is a "movie" like there are so many movies which claim to be documentaries. In fact there is a category for such movies. And they aren't catagorized under documentaries like the ones from NGC or BBC (which are based only and nothing more then facts and given in a objective matter).
F9/11 is a part documentry (yes there are true facts in it, but be sure that it aren't the big "whoowhoo" facts) and part "Holywood"......

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

There is too much to react on in this thread. But for almost all "facts" that some people say in here, I can only say 1 thing: Don't be so paranoid, watch less conspiricy movies, and stop talking BS and come back to the real world.....

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So basically, Let your guard down, Dont watch documentarys and Stop voicing your opinion?

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
On 1 "fact" I'm gonna react though: "US forces use Cluster Bombs in CITIES, TOWNS & VILLAGES": That's utterly BS... They DO use groundtroops, they DONT use cluster bombs on towns... Do you even know what a cluster bomb is???? And if they do bomb, they use "smart"-bombs. True, some miss their target, but 99% of them hit the target within 10m accuracy. And no, that's not something that the bush-administry say to boost up their popularity. That's a militairy fact! Furthermore, this "war against terror" is fought IN cities. That's a whole different warfare then fighting a war in jungle, desert, open country. This is an urban-war, and that means also adapted warfare (and no use of cluster-bombs).

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More technical term instead of "Cluster Bombs" would be "Air Raids", which is dropping a bomb right over a target.  Still, same point, they ARE missing targets.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
All this said, I am against the concept of war as it is fought by America (or should I say Bush) atm. And I don't agree with most things that America/Bush is doing right now. And I also think that Bush is a very crap president. But that doesn't mean that I can fantasize about facts and make up stories (about the use of cluster-bombs for example). Also that still doesn't give me the right to twist around facts, so I can spice them up. Yes, Bush has some dodgy things on his record, he also proberly have some things on his record which only few people know about. But for crying out loud, don't believe all those conspiricy things and cover-ups and blown up facts....

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Tis not blown up facts, tis TRUE facts simply retold.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Now, to eXoendo: reading all your posts in this thread I can only come to the conclussion (again) that you would believe anything they show/tell you, and in doing so you publish this on the net and blow things way out of proportion without even think about things (also see all the other old things that happend between you and the community)

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Do not make this a personal thing, for it is not.  I will believe things when theres VALID proof supporting it .

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

The only decent, intelligent replies I fully can agree with are the ones from Chris and Lobster. All others I find rather "irrational" (and that's even said in a beautiful way).

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Matter of opinion, I think they are relevant and rashional.