Shoutbox

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Originally posted by Poom
Typical users won't know Ctrl+Esc. OK, think about it, majority of Plus!'s users are not registerred to the forums and won't bother finding every shortcuts. Most teen agers, at least the ones I know, don't even know many options in Plus! because they don't bother looking for the ones that are not visualized.

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This is already known and discussed. But these users won't bother either to close all the tabs at once and adding another button will only confuse them more. Also the shortcuts are clearly stated to the left of their menu accesses and/or on the tooltips. There is no need to go on the net and do some research. Also, people used to shortcuts will notice they are standard, like Ctrl+(shift+)Tad, a combination that is used by the majority of tabbed applications to navigate across them. People who don't know about this, won't bother using the mouse as this is what they do mostly. If they are ever are interested in anything as complex as detaching conversations they will try context menues and discover ways to achieve it. But this feature is not a high priority. Usual users will whether use grouped convos or not grouped at all and not a mixture. The girlie you mention will probably not bother using grouped convos. If she does, then she has the capacity to detach them using menues or shortcuts.

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Originally posted by Poom
So, have you got my point yet?

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons.

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Originally posted by Poom
80% would not know those shortcuts and would not try to use them

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How about reading with more attention. The great majority of this 80% you mention (that I don't argue at all, it's probably even more user who don't know about shortcuts) will not bother using advanced functionalities of tabbed conversations. They will probably find them geek or useless. If, I repeat, some of them become interested in using them, they will discover how to and will learn the shortcut or will use the menu. No one is expecting users to already know the shortcuts. Shortcuts are stated to the left orf their menu options. If someone feels as used to that feature as to use shortcuts, trust me they will learn them. If they don't they can still use the menu entry. I've been testing beta's for more than 2 years now and I can tell you the less buttons are added, the better the impact on the girlie-user.

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Originally posted by Poom
I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users

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And I can pretty much tell you are wrong.

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Originally posted by Poom
Well... maybe it talking to two people (or more) at the same time is very rare for you, but not for those who spend their time to CHAT, yes, those girls.

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Heh, I'm pretty sure I've IMed more and longer than you.

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Originally posted by Poom
If you hate those buttons so much, there could be, in preference, options to disable those buttons, though I actually find them very useful in many situations.

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I'm not so immature to think only for myself. I'd even use thos buttons, probably. But I'm telling you most users will feel sick and confused if that much is added. Actually we could add all sorts of functions to the GUI. Like, why not add fixed buttons for formatting?
Or A direct button to the preferences? Or buttons for scheduler, quoter, Come-back messages, perso status...?

It doesn't make any sense!

So please, I've heard and understood your points, it's time for you to consider listening to mine.

Poom, i don't see what your problem is really. Every computeruser oughta know the basics (buttons, shortcuts etc), they are throughout every single windowsprogram you use! This is not a 30+ thing at all! Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...instead of flaming maybe you could learn something? Like how you can group offline contacts together even when using groups (contacts > sort contacts on ..choose groups..go to the menu again and find the "group offline contacts  together" option).

Adding loads of buttons will only confuse the user even more...because they won't see wich button is for what anymore..accidently click the wrong one etc. and foremost they will never learn the basic shortcuts in windows..do you want every single program to add lil shortcutbuttons?

Also the option to group and ungroup are in the menus, there's no need for extra (confusing) buttons.

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Poom, i don't see what your problem is really. Every computeruser oughta know the basics (buttons, shortcuts etc), they are throughout every single windowsprogram you use! This is not a 30+ thing at all! Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...

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Ugh.... Am I really flaming? Since when did I flame him with age? All I did was guessing that he is 30+ and I never said anything bad about it. Besides that, if you may want to read the whole debate for a minute, KeyStrom actually agrees that 80% won't remember the shortcuts, while you are telling me the opposite. I don't get why you are trying to oppose me in such ways, really. Since when did I flame KeyStrom? So, to you, any discussion with something that can not be agreed is flaming? To me, it is more like a debate. I never got angry and flame him. Tell me if I did cross the borderline. Saying something like that does not get much appreciation from me either.

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Adding loads of buttons will only confuse the user even more...because they won't see wich button is for what anymore..accidently click the wrong one etc. and foremost they will never learn the basic shortcuts in windows..do you want every single program to add lil shortcutbuttons?

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Since when did I say all? All I was suggesting is 3 buttons, other than the arrows wihch are implemented. The add new tab button exists in Firefox and other tabbed browser, and it is not so confusing to me. There is a close tab button in Firefox too. Besides, ungroup button is in a program like Trillian. There are ONLY 3 buttons I am suggesting and they exist in tabbed programs.

KeyStrom does get my point a little bit, but he thinks that they are not useful as they are supposed to be.

@KeyStrom:

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And I can pretty much tell you are wrong.

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Then I am sorry. There was no offense intended in anyways. Sorry if it does offend you.

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Heh, I'm pretty sure I've IMed more and longer than you.

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I can say that you are wrong too, because I do spend a lot of time during weekend chatting, mainly chatting with hot girls.

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I'm not so immature to think only for myself. I'd even use thos buttons, probably. But I'm telling you most users will feel sick and confused if that much is added. Actually we could add all sorts of functions to the GUI. Like, why not add fixed buttons for formatting?
Or A direct button to the preferences? Or buttons for scheduler, quoter, Come-back messages, perso status...?

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Since when did I say to add all shortcut buttons into the GUI? I think that this conversation is going in the wrong direction. All I am suggesting is 3 buttons. I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much. The new tab button will be used very often, that is for sure. The ungroup button maybe useful to some, while not to the others. As for the the close button, you may think that it is dangereous or useless. Well... I get your point there, but it can be adjusted to make it less confusing. I will try to think of that in a minute. Again, I am suggesting 3 buttons. 3 buttons that will be used a lot when it comes to tabs, only 3! I am not saying that all the shortcuts should be added. Of course, only the important ones I am suggesting. I don't know why you guys are thinking that I want so much buttons that will create much bloat, but please read my post with more attention. KeyStrom, I do read your posts with a lot of attention, but I find that you do not get my main point there. We are not discussing about shortcuts and buttons, we are discussing about 3 buttons for tab conversation, which will take less space that one tab.

Sunshine, please change your attitude towards me. I actually want Plus! to be good and satisfying to users, not flaming KeyStrom. If you actually think of me that way, then I am very appauled. If my suggestions for making Plus a better plugin means flaming an official tester to you, then there is nothing else to be said. If the attitude still remains the same, then I guess that all I can do is downloading the new Plus! and use it, not giving back any feedbacks nor posting here.

I thought that I have made my points clear enough and tried to hold a debate, not an arguement. If it appears to you that this whole talk has became a flamewar, then I have nothing else to say. Remember that the person who gives feedbacks actually pays attention to the program a lot and hopes that it can improve. TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions. Oh well...

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Originally posted by Poom
I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much

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Maybe much more than the tab detacher and the tabadder.

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Originally posted by Poom
As for the the close button, you may think that it is dangereous or useless

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that.

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Originally posted by Poom
I can say that you are wrong too, because I do spend a lot of time during weekend chatting, mainly chatting with hot girls.

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You should maybe change your macho-attitude, too, towards those girls. That still doesn't proof you IMed more than I did, but well, be happy you do at least.

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Originally posted by Poom
please read my post with more attention

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You repeat yourself. I read with attention. Maybe you should listen to my words.

For a start, you shouldn't have ever used tabbed browsing yet in MSN Messenger and you may be having a false conception of what it does and how it works. We the testers and Patchou ar having long discussions on what should be included and how things should work. Adding buttons for every function to the tabs is definitely not an option.

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Originally posted by Poom
TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions.

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Then maybe this is not the place you should ask for that. Also, SPNG is known for having some disputedly useful features and this goes most times against its populaity. However, many good other features are the main appeal for its users. SPNG has a different target market (if you want to call it this way), where most users are powerusers.


Ok, now look at your conversation window? How many function buttons have been added to it?
2. And they're very relevant: Plus! Menu and Sounds Panel.

You want to add some superflual buttons to detach tabs and add tabs when this can be done in similarly easy ways with the same effort and success? This is called bloating a GUI. And maybe tomorrow comes someone new requesting buttons for setting statuses from the convo, and the day after someone requests format buttons...

Well, if you don't get it now, then sorry, but there's nothing else I can try to explain you, because you don't seem to pay much attention to what I'm saying:

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Originally posted by Poom
KeyStrom actually agrees that 80% won't remember the shortcuts

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* KeyStorm actually agreed that 80% don't KNOW or can't GUESS the shortcuts yet.
It makes me very angry that you purposely misunderstand me!

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Originally posted by Poom
Besides that, if you may want to read the whole debate for a minute

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You can trust she pretty much reads with attention, unlike you.

Poom: I'm not sayin you can't make suggestions. I see this as flaming because you drag personal things like age (and things like chatting often, assuming those speaking here don't) into it to justify your ideas. Us betatesters work on this alot, meaning we also chat alot to test..to me dragging these things into it shows lack of respect.

Honestly take a look at the picture you posted, would you in one glance be able to tell wich button is for what? I sure couldn't. People not beeing able to tell wich is for what is exactly what we are trying to prevent here.

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You should maybe change your macho-attitude, too, towards those girls.

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Perhaps, you may be the one who should change your attitude towards me. I am the person who tries to suggest new things to Plus, but SunShine is saying that I am flaming.

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Attacking people on age is certainly not appreciated here...instead of flaming maybe you could learn something?

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That, my friend, is more offensive that what I posted.

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From this, I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users. Sorry if this is wrong.

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Honestly take a look at the picture you posted, would you in one glance be able to tell wich button is for what? I sure couldn't. People not beeing able to tell wich is for what is exactly what we are trying to prevent here.

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As for the confusion that may cause due to the add new contact button, like I have said, I lazily made the picture and the buttons can be something else.

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You can trust she pretty much reads with attention, unlike you.

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Now, that is an example of not paying attention to what I posted. I said that the buttons could have some workaround to make it better. Besides that, you, KeyStrom, did not pay much attention to my post either.

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You want to add some superflual buttons to detach tabs and add tabs when this can be done in similarly easy ways with the same effort and success? This is called bloating a GUI. And maybe tomorrow comes someone new requesting buttons for setting statuses from the convo, and the day after someone requests format buttons...

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Since when did I say to add all shortcut buttons into the GUI? I think that this conversation is going in the wrong direction. All I am suggesting is 3 buttons. I never suggested format button and those buttons that won't be used that much.

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And you are saying that you get my point while I am the one who does not pay attention? I have never known that Plus! testers are this immature. I never said a single thing about adding those buttons. I am suggesting 3 buttons, but never said about adding all buttons possible. That is actually sarcasm that does not even fit this conversation.

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Then maybe this is not the place you should ask for that. Also, SPNG is known for having some disputedly useful features and this goes most times against its populaity. However, many good other features are the main appeal for its users. SPNG has a different target market (if you want to call it this way), where most users are powerusers.

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My point is that TB does take feedbacks nicely, unlike you two who does not even get my point and try to offend me. I am not paying attention? Ya right, then I guess that I wouldn't be searching for screenshots of the beta and suggesting comments here if I am not paying attention. If you think that I am ignorant, then why am I suggesting you something? You guys really do not make me feel like giving feedbacks. If I am trying to flame you two, then perhaps I would not be quoting like this, but more like

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"YOU SUCK! YOU DO NOT FACKING UNDERSTAND A THING, GODDAMN MORON".

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I actually want Plus! to be good and satisfying to users, not flaming KeyStrom. If you actually think of me that way, then I am very appauled. If my suggestions for making Plus a better plugin means flaming an official tester to you, then there is nothing else to be said. If the attitude still remains the same, then I guess that all I can do is downloading the new Plus! and use it, not giving back any feedbacks nor posting here.

I thought that I have made my points clear enough and tried to hold a debate, not an arguement. If it appears to you that this whole talk has became a flamewar, then I have nothing else to say. Remember that the person who gives feedbacks actually pays attention to the program a lot and hopes that it can improve. TB actually pays more attention to my suggestions and actually applied some of my suggestions. Oh well...

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Yes, and that is what I am going to do right now. I will wait for Plus! 3.6 to come out, even if there is any flaw that can be improved.

I demand a lock. Thank you.

Well you're requesting a feature, we have reasoned why this should not be added. Full stop.

To accept feedback does not mean blindly accepting everything people come and say.
Some suggestions may be good, others may not. This one certainly isn't for us testers.

Since when did you accept "workarounds" instead of "buttons". There already are workarounds I've been trying to explain you all the way through. But you don't seem to read. And then yet come and yell at us for being immature and ignoring your points.

Remember some others may have ignored or flamed you in our feet. Never forget it.

And sure we're pleased to hear your suggestions, but think that they may not be accepted and thank we just explained why.

Also, don't demand a lock that's being immature and not accepting other's replies to your acusations. Shame on that.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well you're requesting a feature, we have reasoned why this should not be added. Full stop.

To accept feedback does not mean blindly accepting everything people come and say.
Some suggestions may be good, others may not. This one certainly isn't for us testers.

Since when did you accept "workarounds" instead of "buttons". There already are workarounds I've been trying to explain you all the way through. But you don't seem to read. And then yet come and yell at us for being immature and ignoring your points.

Remember some others may have ignored or flamed you in our feet. Never forget it.

And sure we're pleased to hear your suggestions, but think that they may not be accepted and thank we just explained why.

Also, don't demand a lock that's being immature and not accepting other's replies to your acusations. Shame on that.

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It is not the accepting or not accepting part. I understand if you are going to accept or not, but the way you are saying it does not make me want to contribute anything anymore, EVER. No, I am not the person who is not reading your posts, you guys are the people who are not reading my posts. See the quotes above. You guys are being plain ignorant at what I am saying and say something totally irrelevant. I suggested 3 buttons, while you guys are talking about buttons and shortcuts, which are irrelevant. From seeing the responds of other members here, I can say that they like the idea. It is just that you guys are not reading my posts, not me who is not reading your posts. Immature? If you say that talking about age is flaming and so on, aren't you the one who is immature? You guys also do not admit your mistakes, being ignorant at what I posted and plain pessimistic. I asked for a lock to avoid worse situation. In forums, there are lock features to avoid worse situations. Besides that, the point of this topic has been changed by the comments of you two and it is not what the topic is meant to be for anymore. That is why we need a lock. I have been a forummer for 2 years and I have my own forums. I know when we need a lock request and what flaming is. If you think that I am immature, sir, you are totally wrong. You guys are the ones who take my feedback as something I did not mean and is accusing me of flaming, being immature, and so on and so forth. If you read my posts with such attention, then you would know that I want 3 buttons, not buttons to format, buttons to change status, and so on. If you read my posts well enough, then you should have known that my intention is to suggest, not to fight with you guys. Since this has become a fight without my intention, this needs to be locked.

This is from a mouth (or maybe hands) of the person who never wanted a fight and got accused of flaming and acting immature without having done such things. I have had several debates and I can say that this is not a debate, but a fight. Who started this? Don't let me state the obvious. This needs to be locked. Period.

I gotta admit I didn't read the whole thread, but some of the ideas seems good in a way, but Keystorm's also right in another way..

I think it is pretty hard for me to say weither yes or not I would like these features included, but I would say that it all comes down to Patchou at the end.. so.. ye that's his decision

Normally, I'd sit back and watch the blood spurt, but I do think that Poom was given the short end of the stick. The accusations of flaming were started by Sunshine and were unfortunately not justified, but I'm sure she had a busy day

I see no reason to stop the conversation, both Poom and KeyStone have made valid arguments. However, I suggest everyone shakes hands, hugs each other and cries as they reminisce about the good old days.

Regarding the extra buttons? I would not add them (perhaps one or two?) - sometimes making everything easy and accessible actually has quite the opposite effect.

edit:I've just reread the thread, and honestly? I think there has been a bit of misinterpretation going on. Perhaps by previously pointing the finger at sunshine I've just proved my own point..
(Sorry Sunshine! I know you weren't trying to flame Poom. I wasn't trying to flame you either. I mean, I'm still not trying to flame - I mean I wasn't - not - um..
* multimillion2k sighs)