Shoutbox

As some of you know, and despite what others may think I have been strongly against the used of LOP.COM and similar sponsors being included in freeware programs - such as Plus! regardless of whether it's optional or not. I'm endeavouring to raise this issue in a very respectful way, I mean no disrespect to Patchou, forum administration and moderators, to beta testers, to fellow forum members - or to anyone else (including lurkers etc).

I still strongly feel that if any option should be given it should be given at the time of Download, not at the time of Installation.

I am working on a new section of my website, and partly it will contain anti-adware and anti-wga sections. I know some of you say Patchou deserves to make revenue from Plus! and that Bandwidth costs money - but there are many other options. Firstly he already has advertising on the website itself, secondly if he didn't have the sponsor there would be many file mirrors who would be more than willing to assist him and take that load off of his server. Also, there are many web hosts who would be more than happy to provide domain hosting in exchange for google ads on his pages - and as Patchou HAS the Google ads, AND he pays for hosting he gets to keep all additional revenue.

I know many people may be thinking "who are you to criticize Patchou's use of a sponsor, you do not understand". I can assure you I have made contributions online for a very long time, and I have several scripts (and possibly compiled programs) I will be distributing from my own website - a site with no ads on it, and no PayPal link.

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Paragraph removed. Served little purpose to the thread asides from advertising your site and discussing bypassing copy protection (not only illegal, but a violation of forum rules)
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Here is a fantastic site - with no advertising (except for their sponsor) and all their freeware is clean, and does not ask you to install 3rd party adware. This site has MANY fantastic programs - not just one, and is clear proof there are many other options:

http://sysinternals.com/

And finally Patchou gives you NO OTHER support/donation options aside from the sponsor program, so is enough enough? "DVD Jon" gives his stuff away because he has a passion for defeating propriety software systems. DVD Decrypter - perhaps the most famous product based on Jon's code - was free with no strings attached.

ISP's sometimes give courtesy calls to customers when they notice their customer accounts are sending SPAM. They will often ask not only that online virus-scans are run, but also anti-adware software such as Ad-Aware or SpyBot is run - Patchou's sponsor interferes with this.

It is time to face facts: those who install the sponsor don't want it on their system. This poll should reflect how people feel about the sponsor. The questions have been worded precisely - you'll notice there's not a "I specifically discourage people from installing the sponsor" as it's redundant. If there is anyone here who encourages their friends or family to install Patchou's sponsor - please reply personally and explain why you do. Because they way I see it the question isn't "do we have a clear choice" - but if no one  (or very few people) encourages their friends and family to install the Sponsor - who is Patchou to encourage them to?

At any rate, I believe this needs to be addressed, I look forward to your replies;

Daniel

I make no bones about the sponsor program, I've had many a time where I've serviced a computer only to find the computer is riddled with spyware/malware and various other types of 'CrapWare' and boy have I had a fight to clear a system of said CrapWare.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the point of having the sponsor program choice when downloading not during installation. this would save alot of accidental installations.

Many people who install the sponsor and similar programs do not even know what it is or what it does when I've asked them, and did not have a clue as to where it may have come from when removing it.

Sorry Patchou, but I for one don't believe you need the sponsor program as a means of income, even though it aides my income to have to repeatedly remove it (by request).

quote:

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Originally posted by Puniksem
this would save alot of accidentalinstallations

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Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor. In fact, now you have to choose whether to install itor not in orderto install Plus! itself!And before you say 'Well, people will just tick 'Yes' without reading',yes they will. And they'll do exactly the same on a webpage (that's whyphishing is so lucrative).

i did those mistakes when i got my computer the first to weeks. after 15 formats i said why did that happen. then i started to read everything. i did read the end user license!! its a bunch of crap BUT (omfg) what you accept . i never use the sponsor (sorry patchou but i dont like

quote:

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Originally posted by Puniksem
'CrapWare'

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) and  i never encourage others to install the sponsor.

quote:

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Originally posted by RaceProUK

quote:

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Originally posted by Puniksem
this would save alot of accidentalinstallations

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Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor. In fact, now you have to choose whether to install itor not in orderto install Plus! itself!And before you say 'Well, people will just tick 'Yes' without reading',yes they will. And they'll do exactly the same on a webpage (that's whyphishing is so lucrative).

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It seems you don't gauge how "automatic" it really is in the same way I do. For instance I have accidentally installed the sponsor program - oh say 3 or 4 times now. Although on every occasion of promptly removed it - it makes my skin crawl to think that this is how Patchou makes money.

One time I mistyped the switch /SilentInstalNoSonsor - and it proceeded to install the Plus! with the sponsor (try it yourself on Plus!3)! Even if there is a "choice" it's still a bad choice when clearly most of us would never recommend to our friends and family to install the sponsor - who is Patchou to recommend they do?

If Patchou is serious about making money from Plus! he could make it a commercial product. I would prefer this then for it to be bundled with this stuff. And there are still many other options available. Besides I didn't stat this thread to discuss whether or not the choice is sufficient - I started it to discuss if there is anyone who recommends to friends and family to install the Plus! Sponsor.

"Remembering that Patchou has re-worked the Plus!installer so many times to make it even easier to not install thesponsor."

Here is the Sponsor agreement Window:


It reveals that it is AdWare. AdWare is like Windows Live Messenger - ads are displayed in program. But it doesn't fully disclose what is going to happen.

I once made the very basics of MSN Messenger in VB, and believe me I could complete the program if I so desired.

Here - see for yourself http://plamdi.com/files/msnmsgr.zip

It's only a proof of concept really, it was at a time when you couldn't select your status when signing in. You can't start conversations in it. An interesting thing is that if you click "Remove Allow" on a contact you'll appear offline only to that contact, regardless of your status - but the contact is not blocked. This still works. You may wonder why there are "encoding options" for the nickname - again proof that you could write longer nicknames if you used minimal encoding when sending to the server. It was also possible to have &# nicknames when sent in specific ways (I still have &# on one account - although I don't think it's possible anymore to change back to it). The method I used was to use an "invalid" character request between & and # - such as %09 (Tab) ... the server would accept the nickname, and then remove %09 from it, so your resulting nickname was &#... or %26%23... or however you'd encoded it. Before that it was possible to send requests to the server like &%23 or %26# and it would be accepted.

I selected the first one... It's not that I'd tell anybody that wants to download the sponsor not to... I just don't install it... and if anybody asks me whether they should or not I'd say no... But it's not like I'd try to persuade somebody out of it.

Meksilon, what is with all the random bragging in your posts?

Your Messenger client is completely off topic. You're jumping from Adware to your own client. Advertising for sysinternals.com was also completely pointless, and your Monkey Island patch and the fact that your site has no ads are pointless too.

Your point is very clear, but it is highly unlikely that Patchou will remove the optional adware from Plus!. The adware installation is presented in a way that warns the user more than any other adware-containing software I've seen.

The adware is Patchou's main source of income from the Plus! project. He has all the right to include this in his program.

The way I see it, Patchou is not responsible for people who install the software. In fact, his installer would probably dissuade most people from installing the adware at all. It provides a warning, stating explicitly that the sponsor is adware and telling users that it is completely optional but will help keep Plus! a free product. If users just click "next, yes, next" without reading, it is completely the user's fault. Patchou is not responsible for the stupidity of users not willing to read. If a user does install the adware, Patchou provides instructions with the warning on how to install it. They are very simple: run the Plus! uninstaller. Once the uninstaller is ran, the sponsor can be removed simply and easily with the click of a button.

Patchou has provided users with all necessary information regarding this 3rd party adware, and the necessary tools to remove it. As I've said before, most software would just install it without prompting or pretend it's good software to get users to install it. Patchou leaves it entirely up to the user whether they chose to install it or not, and provides them with examples of both positive and negative results of the matter to make their decision unbiased.

In my opinion, even though many users may install this (accidentally or deliberately) and complain, it does not need to be removed. These users are the users that refuse to read or follow simple directions. Patchou has no responsibility for their actions.

I don't go around telling people to install it "or else", but whenever someone downloads Plus! because I tell them about it, I mention the sponsor and how safe it is (and the fact that it's friggin' OPTIONAL!).

Btw, if anyone really cares, I voted for the third option. I encourage, not demand.

quote:

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Originally posted by Meksilon
AdWare is like Windows Live Messenger - ads are displayed in program.

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I had the impression that WLM was a chat client with ads, not adware. :/

Adware is a program which its only purpose is to serve ads, and has an EULA to go with it and all.

Spyware and Malware is when they shove it up your butt without an option and without you even realizing it.

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Originally posted by deAd
Meksilon, what is with all the random bragging in your posts?

Your Messenger client is completely off topic. You're jumping from Adware to your own client. Advertising for sysinternals.com was also completely pointless, and your Monkey Island patch and the fact that your site has no ads are pointless too.

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Well that's your point of view, I simply feel I have nothing to hide. Sysinternals is fantastic, and "word of mouth" is the most effective form of advertising - yes, but it's not like I profit from saying so. In fact, I don't profit from promoting my own site either - and considering the fact I don't really promote it at all I don't see how you can critisize me for "advertising" it.

The way I see it, Patchou is not responsible for people who install the software.

Really?

In fact, his installer would probably dissuade most people from installing the adware at all. It provides a warning, stating explicitly that the sponsor is adware and telling users that it is completely optional

They way I see it - you have the choice, you have the warning:



Just because they have it big and clear doesn't change the reality that they're responsible for bad health. This can be directly related to Patchou's installation package. At least smokers WANT to smoke.

but will help keep Plus! a free product.

Again, I have huge problems with thinking this way. I go down to the club and can enjoy a cheap meal and cheap drinks - because of their 100 poker machines - is that fair? No it isn't, and I have huge problems with poker machines in Australia - we have the choice - we have the warnings ... but it's better not to have them at all - much better.

If users just click "next, yes, next" without reading, it is completely the user's fault.

That's a matter of opinion. The letter of the law as it stands puts at fault the other party - not the consenting user. For instance, if I was taken to hospital and the nurse asked me to agree to surgery and referred to it in hospital jargon I didn't understand and then latter I found my legs were removed - I could sue the hospital for it because they had not ensured that I fully understood what I was agreeing to.

Patchou is not responsible for the stupidity of users not willing to read.

I beg to differ - he is directly responsible if he takes advantage of it. The "stupidity of users"? I have know personal friends who have installed Plus! with the sponsor – and then removed it. I never recommend Plus! to others, and calling my friends "stupid" is simply not on.

Patchou has provided users with all necessary information regarding this 3rd party adware

Who - after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor - would install it?

Patchou has no responsibility for their actions.

See the above image.

Spyware and Malware is when they shove it up your butt without an option and without you even realizing it.

Again - who after fully understanding everything to do with the sponsor would install it?

Well I thank you for your detailed and professional way of posting. We often get things like:

'You suck, i hate you, you gave me a virus'

I also feel strongly about adware. I don't think anti-virus companies portray it right. A lot just simple detect it as a trojan, when it is not. They don't tell you what the program may do. More clear guidelines would stop people pancing. I mean what is a virus nowadays?

C2LOP is not the best adware company. But the software Patchou uses is heavily stripped. I guess you have to take the bad with the good. I agree with you on some levels, because the sponsor is giving the program a bad name. I'm sure Patchou would get rid of it if he could find a better way to make money from his program

People don't seem to give him many offers, I'm sure if he done his research he could make more money without annoying users as much. Maybe he can make a deal with Microsoft in some way, they tend to bundle a lot of things in their installations