Shoutbox

Hey

I’m going to make this thread because I’m basically sick and tired of everyone's opinion. And the majority of opinions are like an asshole; everyone’s got one and it stinks.


Moving on, I’ve been beta testing MSN Messenger/Windows Live Messenger for about 4-5 years now. I’ve submitted some bugs, gave feedback, posted some suggestions, etc to Microsoft. All my bug testing has been taken into account, and I don’t say this to sound important I just say this because I’ve seen bug fixes around reports that I have sent (of course this is because other people experience the same problem but nonetheless I contributed to it and I am glad)

My ideology of beta testing (whatever product not only limited to Messenger) is installing the product on different configurations. We are talking about Vista, XP, Windows 95 (yes of course I know it wouldn’t install and it is not a supported operating system but that does not matter and is not the point). Different hardware: nVidia/ATI cards, different motherboards etc. Then after that, I believe in trying different patches/add-ons (Plus! for example) to test if Messenger is stable and/or has changed in its method of operation.

Here’s a definition from Wikipedia:

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Beta testing comes after alpha testing. Versions of the software, known as beta versions released to a limited audience outside of the company. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users.
It should be noted that although both Alpha and Beta are referred to as testing it is in fact use immersion. The rigors that are applied are often unsystematic and many of the basic tenets of testing process are not used. The Alpha and Beta period provides insight into environmental and utilization conditions that can impact the software.

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Let’s see: Environmental and utilization conditions; I believe that I under a normal environment and normal utilization of my PC using messenger I use patches and add-ons such as Messenger Plus! (including skins and scripts). And I am not the only member under normal and personal “Environmental and utilization conditions” that uses Messenger Plus!

That being said, for the future, I just ask everyone to respect each other’s ideology and let beta testers test the product however they like. If Microsoft had a problem with me beta testing with Plus!, I personally know that they would have told me a LONG time ago.

Oh, Okay..
Personally i think Windows Live Messenger beta tester,  should have no  addons or patches, as they could course problems, but of course this is my opinion, we should all worship your opinion

Edit: Also if you can post your opinions, does that mean the rest of the forum can to?

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Originally posted by duck!

Edit: Also if you can post your opinions, does that mean the rest of the forum can to?

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An Internet forum is a web application for holding discussions and posting user generated content

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Dont see why not. It is user generated content a written opinion right?

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Originally posted by duck!
Oh, Okay..
Personally i think Windows Live Messenger beta tester,  should have no  addons or patches, as they could course problems, but of course this is my opinion, we should all worship your opinion

Edit: Also if you can post your opinions, does that mean the rest of the forum can to?

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Agreed.

@riahc4

Each product is targeted towards a certain audience, and as such, each product, it its beta stages has certain QA and various other requirements that it must qualify for (this is set at a corporate level, varying from company to company).

I can tell you one thing though, although many a time a blind eye is turned towards addons and such, but just because they turn a blind eye towards it doesn't mean that they endorse it. This is simply because this conflicts with the goals of beta testing, which is to check program stability and usability in a regular environment, such as conflicts with other programs and so on.

Things in beta are still experimental. If a skinner like myself decided to support a beta, it would be due to the fact that I am a gambling person, on a whim, nothing more, nothing less. Do you remember when messenger was in beta in 8.0?

If I made a skin then, I would have had to re write the whole thing when it became final, because that is the great amount of change that the uifiles went through.

Patchou can vouch for me when I say that 9.0 is significantly different than how 8.5 works. Many of the functions that were in 8.5 were split up and so on, so for me to write an advanced skin that would support 8.5 and 9.0 would be a pain in the ass, if not impossible. Hell even the custom filetype that the messenger team created, which they named RLE, has even changed from 8.5 to 9.0. Of course you wouldn't know anything about that would you now... because if you did we wouldn't be having this thread.

So when you say your ideology of beta testing is to test it in a regular environment, then test it in a regular environment.

I can assure you that doing tech support for over 5 years now that most people fall under the category of using their computer for basic needs. Most people tend not to skin or modify their UI and they certainly don't know enough to fall under the category of willingly modifying the programs they use unless a person such as the people on these forums do it for them. So how is it that you are testing a small niche in a big sea? Instead of looking for bugs that affect proper usability, you however are looking for little nit picky things that are more towards the RC stage. I think if anything, you have confused the roles of a beta tester.

As far as messenger's beta testing goes, it is not there so that you can test out your own modifications of the current program. People are NOT supposed to modify the program, period. It's stated very clearly in the EULA. Try posting in the newsgroups that you modified the client and that it crashes or doesn't perform well and see what the response of the beta team to that will be.

I rambled on too long if I don't make sense, ask for clarification.


P.S.

@duck! - Awesome avatar man, mind if I steal it for personal use .

quote:

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Originally posted by riahc4
If Microsoft had a problem with me beta testing with Plus!, I personally know that they would have told me a LONG time ago.

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They do. Both Microsoft employees and Patchou strongly advice against it.

You can test Messenger with Plus! enabled, but once you find a problem, reproduce the bug with Plus! disabled before you report anything. If you can reproduce the bug without Plus!, submit it to Microsoft. If you can only reproduce the bug with Plus! enabled, submit it to Patchou.

Everything is fine as long as you don't report bugs to Microsoft that can't be reproduced with Plus! completely disabled. Microsoft doesn't support unofficial third party add-ons/patches like Plus!, so they won't fix these problems. Submitting them anyway will only make it harder on the MS team while in the meantime you could have reported it to Patchou so he can fix it on his side.

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Originally posted by ipab

Agreed.

@riahc4

Each product is targeted towards a certain audience, and as such, each product, it its beta stages has certain QA and various other requirements that it must qualify for (this is set at a corporate level, varying from company to company).

I can tell you one thing though, although many a time a blind eye is turned towards addons and such, but just because they turn a blind eye towards it doesn't mean that they endorse it. This is simply because this conflicts with the goals of beta testing, which is to check program stability and usability in a regular environment, such as conflicts with other programs and so on.

Things in beta are still experimental. If a skinner like myself decided to support a beta, it would be due to the fact that I am a gambling person, on a whim, nothing more, nothing less. Do you remember when messenger was in beta in 8.0?

If I made a skin then, I would have had to re write the whole thing when it became final, because that is the great amount of change that the uifiles went through.

Patchou can vouch for me when I say that 9.0 is significantly different than how 8.5 works. Many of the functions that were in 8.5 were split up and so on, so for me to write an advanced skin that would support 8.5 and 9.0 would be a pain in the ass, if not impossible. Hell even the custom filetype that the messenger team created, which they named RLE, has even changed from 8.5 to 9.0. Of course you wouldn't know anything about that would you now... because if you did we wouldn't be having this thread.

So when you say your ideology of beta testing is to test it in a regular environment, then test it in a regular environment.

I can assure you that doing tech support for over 5 years now that most people fall under the category of using their computer for basic needs. Most people tend not to skin or modify their UI and they certainly don't know enough to fall under the category of willingly modifying the programs they use unless a person such as the people on these forums do it for them. So how is it that you are testing a small niche in a big sea? Instead of looking for bugs that affect proper usability, you however are looking for little nit picky things that are more towards the RC stage. I think if anything, you have confused the roles of a beta tester.

As far as messenger's beta testing goes, it is not there so that you can test out your own modifications of the current program. People are NOT supposed to modify the program, period. It's stated very clearly in the EULA. Try posting in the newsgroups that you modified the client and that it crashes or doesn't perform well and see what the response of the beta team to that will be.

I rambled on too long if I don't make sense, ask for clarification.


P.S.

@duck! - Awesome avatar man, mind if I steal it for personal use .

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Those things that you typed that I highlighted in bold just gives me more reason: A normal enviroment for you and me is to use Messenger with Plus!. Thats normal. If it crashes with a addon, of course I agree it would be Plus!'s fault. But it could also be Messenger's fault

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Originally posted by MenthiX

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Originally posted by riahc4
If Microsoft had a problem with me beta testing with Plus!, I personally know that they would have told me a LONG time ago.

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They do. Both Microsoft employees and Patchou strongly advice against it.

You can test Messenger with Plus! enabled, but once you find a problem, reproduce the bug with Plus! disabled before you report anything. If you can reproduce the bug without Plus!, submit it to Microsoft. If you can only reproduce the bug with Plus! enabled, submit it to Patchou.

Everything is fine as long as you don't report bugs to Microsoft that can't be reproduced with Plus! completely disabled. Microsoft doesn't support unofficial third party add-ons/patches like Plus!, so they won't fix these problems. Submitting them anyway will only make it harder on the MS team while in the meantime you could have reported it to Patchou so he can fix it on his side.

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In the newsgroups Ive posted that Im with Plus! too and noone has ever cared or said anything against it.

obviously you've confused my message.

I was remarking on the fact that the messenger team is only going to be irritate with you if you post that messenger doesn't play well with a unofficial third party addon.

Saying you use plus! doesn't mean much unless you actually make a statement that messenger affect's plus!'s stability...

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Originally posted by riahc4
A normal enviroment for you and me is to use Messenger with Plus!. Thats normal. If it crashes with a addon, of course I agree it would be Plus!'s fault. But it could also be Messenger's fault

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very true, but that does not mean you should be asking in every scripting thread for an update of the scripts (especially if you didn't even tried the script in question). As it is exactly that what people found extremely annoying, which in the end lead to this thread I think...

People saying to stop asking for everything to be updated has got absolutely nothing to do with them not agreeing to your ideology, whatever that might be.

And in that regards, MS never ever stated and never ever will state that you should test WLM9 with Plus! installed, let alone every possible script. In fact, they do NOT want you to do that. It is Patchou who wants you to test Plus! with a specific Messenger version when the time is there to test it.

If you so strongly believe in that ideology and proper beta testing (respect to that otherwise): there are a lot more critical bugs to be found in WLM9 without Plus! being installed for you wasting your time tracking down some rare obscure things between the Plus! scripting engine and WLM9. And even if you do want to do that, you still do not need every possible script to be updated for WLM9.

beta tests are made to find BUGS IN SOFTWARE modifying the software prevents the coders from knowing its their fault or not...

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Originally posted by riahc4
Then after that, I believe in trying different patches/add-ons (Plus! for example) to test if Messenger is stable and/or has changed in its method of operation.

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Originally posted by ipab
obviously you've confused my message.

I was remarking on the fact that the messenger team is only going to be irritate with you if you post that messenger doesn't play well with a unofficial third party addon.

Saying you use plus! doesn't mean much unless you actually make a statement that messenger affect's plus!'s stability...

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Um I believe it would be the other way around: Plus! affects Messenger's stability but whatever floats your boat...

The "normal" enviroment for me (a official beta tester) and members of this large forum are to run Plus! with Messenger.
The "normal" enviroment for others (who are also official beta testers) are to run it with Messenger Discovery Live (I have no idea if MDL is compatible with 9.0; Im just giving a example)
The "normal" enviroment for another group of official beta testers use Messenger without a addon at all...

These are all different normal enviroments which IMO Messenger should be tested in.
A clear example is in the antivirus/firewall world; Some antiviruses (or firewalls) are incompatible with certain firewalls (or antiviruses). Therfore it is the responsability of one, the other, or BOTH to update their software so it can work in a normal antivirus+firewall enviroment.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

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Originally posted by riahc4
A normal enviroment for you and me is to use Messenger with Plus!. Thats normal. If it crashes with a addon, of course I agree it would be Plus!'s fault. But it could also be Messenger's fault

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very true, but that does not mean you should be asking in every scripting thread for an update of the scripts (especially if you didn't even tried the script in question). As it is exactly that what people found extremely annoying, which in the end... bla bla bla

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Cookie, 90% of your post was a personal issue that you seem to have with me for ASKING a update to scripts to work with 9.0
Dont go offtopic on this thread. If you have a problem with me or a issue to talk about, feel free to PM me.