Mr. Patchou:

I am medical doctor in Brazil but I am too Systens Analyst like hobby. I would like to be an Official Translator of Messenger Plus! for the Portuguese from Brazil.

I would like to remind you that the Portuguese from Brazil is very different from the Portuguese from Portugal.

I will show for you some example:

Brasil                              Portugal
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Arquivo                           Ficheiro
Senha                             Palavra-Passe
Restaurante                   Casa de Pasto **
Baixar                             Transferir
Ativada                           Activa *
Ação                               Acção *
Contato                          Contacto *

* Many words in the Portuguese from Portugal have a "c" more that doesn't exist in the Portuguese from Brazil.

** "Casa de Pasto" in Brazil mean Place where horses eat!

I think that Brazil deserves a correct translation for native language.

I have posting translations of the original file in English in the forum.

Please, how should I proceed?

Thank you,
Dr. Heyder

You might be interested in reading TRANSLATOR PORTUGUÊS BRASIL and Tradução para o Português do Brasil v3.54.132

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Originally posted by Tochjo
You might be interested in reading TRANSLATOR PORTUGUÊS BRASIL and Tradução para o Português do Brasil v3.54.132

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Without dissing everything up, and without getting into politics, etc I must say that American is also not "allowed" and it has also many words written differently then in English. Yet both language are also official and both languages are also spoken by millions of people...
If both Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese would be officialy in Messenger Plus!, then there will also be many other languages (Belgian Dutch, Holland Dutch, American English, some different Spanish languages, etc...) Of course there is nothing which prevent you from making a translation and posting it on the forum so people can use it if they like...

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Originally posted by Heyder
already has 2 months that I wait for an answer of Patchou

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Without dissing everything up, and without getting into politics, etc I must say that American is also not "allowed" and it has also many words written differently then in English. Yet both language are also official and both languages are also spoken by millions of people...
If both Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese would be officialy in Messenger Plus!, then there will also be many other languages (Belgian Dutch, Holland Dutch, American English, some different Spanish languages, etc...) Of course there is nothing which prevent you from making a translation and posting it on the forum so people can use it if they like...

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Originally posted by Heyder
already has 2 months that I wait for an answer of Patchou

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mail him again... probably got lost between all the spam...

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Originally posted by Heyder
If exist official translations of Espanol (Espana) e Espanol (Latino) -

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Originally posted by Heyder
no there is any difference among them -

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Ok, Choli, thank you for this answer. Thank you too for yours polite posts. I go lowly continue post my translations in this forum to resident in Brazil can download the file.

I wait that Patchou sensitize by Brazilian peoples and include my translation in Setup of Messenger Plus!...  After all, in what the program would worsen? To the opposite, a new translation would just increase the software!

Please, consider this, Mr. Patchou!

Thank you for all.
Dr. Heyder

Download my translation file for Brasilian Portuguese of Messenger Plus! version 3.54.132 in http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=45283

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Originally posted by Heyder

Brasil                              Portugal
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Restaurante                   Casa de Pasto **

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Originally posted by Edu115

WHAT??!!! I'm portuguese, and i've never EVER heard of "Casa de Pasto" with a meaning of restaurant...

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Domain Name and Languages

These are the current language stats. Quite some time ago, languages who dropped under 1000 users were pruned from the official package. I'm not sure about how many udownloads would be required to add that translation to the package, but surely at least more than 1000.

Also the stats should be treated and monitored more accurately by the server administrators.

Patchou pruned a number of languages because they wasted an excessive space in the package and some seemed not to be used. Still all these can be downloaded from your localized page at http://www.msgplus.net

And a personal advice: Instead of aggresively advertising your translation, you may make a translation that proves for itself to be worth the addition.

Hello there.

This is a matter that should not be discussed in such a superficial way.

To start on, I believe that even KeyStorm, from Spain, noticed that there is no translation for "restaurante" from brazillian to portuguese, because it's the same word on both countries. I felt extremely shocked and offended when you posted "Casa de Pasto" as our translation. I mean, naming restaurant as a cow sty (chiqueiro), or cow granary (celeiro onde as vacas comem)? It's undoubtly a clear hostile attitude and not a mistake as you want us/others to believe. And that's not only because it's obviously wrong, but you are, as you several times claim to be, a medical doctor which leaves me petrified seeing that as such an experienced person, you have so poor knowledge of the portuguese language and country. And I'm not referring to exhaustive knowledge like how many flags we had throughout the history, but at least have the capacity to use common sense to search if the "translation" for restaurant or anything else exists, and if so, if it is so offensive as that one you referred to...
I'm not a doctor, but 2 years away from being an mechanical engineer, if you're so interested in knowing the graduation of those you are talking to, and i assure you i know a great deal about the brazilian language, costumes, history, habits, and also my common sense wouldn't let me post such dramatic and offensive words as yours, anywhere.

Using a very simple document comparing software (http://www.grigsoft.com/wincmp3.htm), it's clear for anyone two things a) the differences are in fact rare and not significant (if you know how to read the language) and b) you didn't make a translation by hand from zero, but adopted and modified the official portuguese one. And I shall explain now.

The differences between our languages are more on the way they’re spoken and less on how they’re written.
For example, words like "contacto", "activar", "actualizar", in brazillian are written "contato", "ativar" and "atualizar" because the tonic syllable (I don’t know if this is the correct way to say this in english, it’s the syllable of every word that is louder that the others) on those words is said with more emphasis in Brazil than in Portugal, and so that's why the "c" disappears in such words when speaking, but must be there in order to be gramatically correct. Anyway, it's presence on those words will definitely not make brazilians don't understand it's meaning.
There's also the difference on the "status" translation, where we have "estado" and you reverted it to "status" again. Well, it's known that in Brazil many words are adapted (or realy are) from the english, like that one could probably be, and I believe that way you can more easily understand what it's referring to, but there are some reasons not to use it, namely a) there's a clear translation, so there's no reason not to translate it, b) the whole translation is supposed to be read by any kind of people, including doctors and children that only know it's mother language and c) the whole translation must be absolutely formal, direct to the point, and in absolute conformity with the grammar (I must also add that our translation is checked by a certified and experienced portuguese teacher apart from the team, so I can honestly tell you that our translation would certainly fit on any iso-certification rules )
Another difference is the "file" translation. We have it as "ficheiro" and you changed it to "arquivo" (archive). Well, obviously "ficheiro" is the most correct way to translate "file". Not only mixing file with archieve is not correct, because they mean different things, but if in some situation we actually need to translate the word "archieve" I think that using the same translation to two different situations, when there's the possibility to have them different, is not wise. And worse, changing everything would let many users confused.
One last difference is the "password" translation. For this word we actually had to search for some opinions before deciding to use "palavra passe". You changed it to "senha", which is also correct and it's even smaller than our final decision, but the reason not to use it is that "palavra passe" is more accurate to the situation, "senha" is not so catchy for first-time users and less experienced users on computres, not to mention that other portuguese software’s use "palavra passe" so we decided to keep the uniformity on this one.
After talking to some brazillian friends, the only actual difference to their way of speaking by looking to our translation is just the "c"s which is, in their own words, "irrelevant".
Your file also has some other minor changes that do not change at all the meaning or the structure of what we had on the Portuguese file, not making it any more understandable than what it already is.

The authenticity of your file is also non existent and fake, which for me and the Portuguese translation team could by itself be the only reason not to declare your file as an authentic brasilian translation. And I mean this because for someone that doesn’t know the language, there’s like 80% of your file that is similar, I mean, it’s the same translation that we did. And no, it’s not, by far, a coincidence. I noticed especially several very difficult parts that were assigned to me on some translation sessions, and I found them in the exact same way on your file. And some others that had to be discussed within the team are also in the very same way. And there are some reasons for almost everything that has the same translation on your file, and it’s not because it’s a coincidence, a) we invested many time reflecting and searching for the best words for each sentence/situation and it would be impossible for you to reach the same conclusions because you don’t master the language, b) you’re a different person, and different persons solve problems in different ways, so if I was someone else probably the final result could be different from what it is now and c) I know that in several lines a brazilian person would suggest doing the translation in a different way, but only in some of them you actually changed the content.
So you copied our work and adapted it to your needs, without even respecting the amount of work we had to solve every translation line, taking the best parts of it and the two or three parts we still are not sure if they will keep translated like that. I do not consider good sense, just not to say something worse, to come here and claim to have done “authentic” work on the file from scratch and willing it to become official. It’s not honest for your consciousness and your country.

Other important fact is the file structure. I don't know if you got to read the translation guidelines (http://files.msgplus.net/data/TranslationGuidelines.doc) because there are some entries that are in violation of some rules, which may led to corruption when loading the file and/or the entries with those errors when windows are opened. One example is: "CurrentLanguageA=Português (Brasil)", if you read the guidelines, you’ll find the mistake here.
Also to mention that this transl... adaptation was made without the care and sensibility  that is supposed to, because there's some entries that are bigger than it's supposed to, so they can't be completely read on the respecting windows.

There was, in fact, an official brazilian version on Plus! some years ago, I think around version 2.20. No one here in this forum knows why it suddenly stopped to be updated, but if after all this time there were no claims or demands for its coming back, this is one more proof that our work serves both nations with plenty satisfaction, without complain from any of them. And I can assure you, I can’t proof right now because I don’t have the time for that, that at that time (kinda repetitive!) both translation had a completely different structure. At that time it was in fact an authentic, impartial and unique team work, that obviously had everything correctly translated but anyone could see that there was no rip-off of any of the parts.

The 500 downloads that your file had in the last months is, of course, a number that allows us to reach some accurate conclusions about the opinion of users that come here to get it.
Those downloads do not directly mean that there is in fact people needing your file, because not only there’s the possibility that there are people that always look for a brazilian translation of the softwares they’re using probably without noticing there’s a “portuguese” one lower in the language list, but also there’s the chance that they are actually looking for a brazilian translation (and I don’t think it’s for the needing, but more the curiosity). And even if they need it, when they get into this forum and download your file, I don’t know what do they think about it but I assume they feel pretty neutral about it. Nothing very different from the original Portuguese file is present there. And I say this because on those 500 downloads there wasn’t ever one single person reporting it’s opinion that in fact there are deep (or superficial!), crucial differences between both language files, and so I conclude that adding your file would be, at least, redundant.

Just one last curiosity. There are much more writing differences in American English and British English than in our case. Just by remembering TV series, movies and sports, I can recall dozens of words that mean the same on english and american, but are differently written. For example, in the form of British/American: flat/apartment, tarmac/asphalt, lawyer/attorney, pub/bar, post/mail, note/bill, draw/tie, garden/yard, tyre/tire, catalogue/catalog, theatre/theater, analyse/analyze and the most famous colour/color and license/licence.
There are also many differences on the spelling of past tenses of verbs like dreamt/dreamed, strived/strove, which is a major difference that isn’t even enough to create two English language files, that doesn't happen in the brazilian-portuguese case where you’re only talking about synonyms that are known on both places.

I had said this before and I repeat it again, you didn’t translate this software, you ripped off our work. You are not respecting, and even violating, the devotion we gave to our work and it is not acceptable that you get credited for doing a find/replace job under our file and claiming for its authenticity.

With best regards,

Gonçalo Ferreira

Well thanks for this exhaustie and somewhat personal analysis of the file that gets to very interestings and unknown facts to me. I must say I can speak some Brazilian portuguese (I mean with Brazilian phonetics), but not that far. I think I'd know about "casa de pasto" because it would sound very peculiar and certainly funny for Spaniards (where "casa de pasto" has the same meaning of "sty house"), who would very probably make fun of that now and then.

But it isn't, as it seems, and all of Heyder's points have been replied and beaten, so I think this discussion should end sometime soon.

Heyder, if you want to make a real Brazilian Portuguese translation, have some mates join the group, assign tasks, and translate directly from English, like all us did and still do. As far as we should be concerned, there should be a real monitoring by Patchou who would certify the nuber of users your translation has, because the download stats could be faked easily (I'm being very skeptic and stern, now, no offence intended). So well, you should remake the translation and do a proper job.


And btw,

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Originally posted by Gonçalo F.
tonic syllable

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Originally posted by KeyStorm

These are the current language stats. Quite some time ago, languages who dropped under 1000 users were pruned from the official package. I'm not sure about how many udownloads would be required to add that translation to the package, but surely at least more than 1000. Also the stats should be treated and monitored more accurately by the server administrators.

Patchou pruned a number of languages because they wasted an excessive space in the package and some seemed not to be used. Still all these can be downloaded from your localized page at http://www.msgplus.net

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And a personal advice: Instead of aggresively advertising your translation, you may make a translation that proves for itself to be worth the addition.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well thanks for this exhaustie and somewhat personal analysis of the file that gets to very interestings and unknown facts to me. I must say...

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But it isn't, as it seems, and all of Heyder's points have been replied and beaten, so I think this discussion should end sometime soon.

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Heyder, if you want to make a real Brazilian Portuguese translation, have some mates join the group, assign tasks, and translate directly from English, like all us did and still do. As far as we should be concerned, there should be a real monitoring by Patchou who would certify the nuber of users your translation has, because the download stats could be faked easily (I'm being very skeptic and stern, now, no offence intended). So well, you should remake the translation and do a proper job.

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I actually can't tell who's right in this issue. But I know Gonçalo from these forums and I think (heck, I'm almost sure) he has nothing against Brazilian Portuguese translations. However, and as usual around here, there have been some failed attempts, being this one from his point of view.

I can tell he and his team work very professionally since they have more target users to please than they formerly did (mainly Portugal and Brazil, which is quite a lot of potential users). Currently, more than 647 000 individuals use their Portuguese translation, which makes more than 10% of all the users community. This is quite a responsibility for the people in charge and the work has needed more than a month, because there's much more than just translating:

-individual feature study
-feature names translations, wich need to be thoroughly discussed between members and extremely accurate to thinking of the feature itself and of the end-user
-actual translation
-correction
-careful shortcut selection
-technical testing (text fitting, shortcuts...)
-end-user testing (which is a test run by unrelated users that may not be as Messenger Plus! clever as translators, however this can be hardly done, except if you add specific testers for this area to the group, whom to legally share the translators beta)

For this I think it's a must to be a group, alone at least to brainstorm how features have to be called.

I hope you can please Gonçalo and all of us in a future introducing a well structured gorup (doesn't need to be more than 4 people) and a fully renovated translation.

If I have some time tomorrow I'll perform a diff on both files to see how far keys may have been ripped to have a clearer idea of the facts, although I can't judge the language itself.

plagiarized or not, accurate or not, mistakes or not... the fact is that the translation was removed because it had less than 1000 users.

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Originally posted by Heyder
Very curious... none of the 450 people that downloaded the file complained of that. . . to the opposite, I received eulogy... (http://shoutbox.menthix.net/showthread.php?tid=45283)

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• CurrentLanguageA=Português (Brasil)
                                     ^^ accents are not allowed and thus it should be "Portugues (Brasil)"
  
• Your file is saved as Unicode, this is not needed at all, since it doesn't contain any unicode characters.
  
• in [QuickText.Defaults] the commands can not be translated!
  
• it lacks consistancy on some points (eg: interpunction)
  
• etc.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
I actually can't tell who's right in this issue. But I know Gonçalo from these forums and I think (heck, I'm almost sure) he has nothing against Brazilian Portuguese translations...

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I am pretty sure if you post an offer in this forum to engage experienced Brazilians to join your group, you will be able to achieve this. You actually only need IM and email contact to them. Internet offers you such ability to find people. If you're interested in keeping the translation moving on, you can find people who might want to help you.

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Originally posted by Heyder
caution in judge me

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
plagiarized or not, accurate or not, mistakes or not... the fact is that the translation was removed because it had less than 1000 users.

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1 person saying "perfect" does certainly not mean your translation is perfect at all. In fact, it could well be someone who posted this without even looking at all the translations or even without testing it first...

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btw, I can already say that your translation does have technical errors in it...

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Using Choli's Trranslator program is good for comparing. But it is not recommended to use it as the only tool to make the actual translation; there are many important comments inside the original English language file which must be followed also...

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As for comparing the two (the Brazilian and the Protuguese translations), they are very very similar, and I must say that there are a lot[ no parse ](!)[/noparse] of similarities. Moststuff in your translation is literally what I have found in the Protuguese translation (minus some changed words) or with some other grammar but using the exact same words.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
I'm understanding this as a threat and I'm not going to accept this. I hope you missed your words and you apologise.

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Originally posted by Heyder
BUT of the 450 downloads, NOBODY complained

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Originally posted by Heyder
Ok, KeyStorm, I understand. I accept the concept that you have of Mr. Gonçalo. You know him, me not. However, to offend me in the way that he did, just because he finds a lot of coincidences in my translation, it is at least, lacks of a good education.  To accuse somebody only for evidences can to generate legal process for slander.

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Originally posted by Edu115
1). Dr. Heyder, in your "oh so high-standard and high educated" world, somebody forgot to tell you that you can't "generate legal process for slander" just because someone in a forum accused you.
2). And for the record, and don't take it as an insult or something like that, your english isn't that good, so i personally don't think you could do an entire translation alone.
3). But hey, you're the doctor. "Me not."

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I rest my case... Do whatever you want, but just don't copy or use other translators work.. If it's good enough, Patchou will make it official.

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Originally posted by Edu115
I rest my case... Do whatever you want, but just don't copy or use other translators work.. If it's good enough, Patchou will make it official.

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Look, there are many kinds of portuguese, European Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese and African Portuguese.

The african Portuguese is not as known as the other two because people on these countries are poor and cant afford a computer.

I dont know what your objective is, but you wont have Brazilian Portuguese bundled with Msgplus anytime soon as there are many kinds of Portuguese there are many kinds of French, English etc.

And only the ones from England, France aka the "original" languages come with Msgplus, i personally dont agree with this, i dont understand why Patchou decided so but he did.


I dont know where you took that idea from but we dont say Casa de Pasto but Restaurante just as you.
And in the same context we can use senha as well, yeah we use mostly palavra-passe but senha can also be used.


If you want to translate, fine, but it will not be official.

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Originally posted by paperless
1) I dont know what your objective is, but you wont have Brazilian Portuguese bundled with Msgplus anytime soon as there are many kinds of Portuguese there are many kinds of French, English etc.
2) ...I personally dont agree with this, i dont understand why Patchou decided so but he did.
3)I dont know where you took that idea from but we dont say Casa de Pasto but Restaurante just as you. And in the same context we can use senha as well, yeah we use mostly palavra-passe but senha can also be used.
4) If you want to translate, fine, but it will not be official.

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Originally posted by Heyder
1) My objective is simple:  To give a present the Brazilian people with a legitimate translation Brazilian of Messenger Plus!

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Originally posted by UnduTheGun
As keystorm said, you should find other Brazilian people so you can compare ideas. I don't think a single person without translating skills and experience (e. g. have studied in a univeristy to be a translator), can have a good translation from English.

Don't get me wrong, I've read the thread and I know you have good intentions, but translating a text isn't as easy as it sounds.

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Please, paperless, read again. No one is talking about such requirements.

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Originally posted by UnduTheGun
I don't think a single person without translating skills and experience (e. g. have studied in a univeristy to be a translator), can have a good translation from English.

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Originally posted by paperless
Originally posted by UnduTheGun

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Please, paperless, read again. No one is talking about such requirements.

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Originally posted by Leo
1) Anyway, from what I've read, no one is stopping anyone to do a translation for personal use and maybe sharing among a group of people. It won't be labeled as official, but it still can be used, as long as this is stated (if you're going to distribute it). 2) If you're really up to the challenge of translating the English strings by yourself, good luck. 3) But don't use another translation to base yours. 4) This is simply what was told to you by the official translators, and there is no need to make a big deal of it. 5) You must understand that most translations require a group of people working hard on a project, and they don't get paid. 6) It's not surprising they are suspicious of a very similar translation, coming from a person who claims both languages are, somewhat, different. Good luck!

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Originally posted by UnduTheGun
1) As keystorm said, you should find other Brazilian people so you can compare ideas. 2) I don't think a single person without translating skills and experience (e. g. have studied in a univeristy to be a translator), can have a good translation from English. 3) Don't get me wrong, I've read the thread and I know you have good intentions, but translating a text isn't as easy as it sounds.

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Originally posted by Heyder
To find people is easy; the difficult is my time to coincide with the one of them.  I make translations of softwares simply for hobby in the time that have free. I make that as a good therapy!  But I don't have fixed time... it is a here, other there... Therefore, I don't want more being an official translator. I will continue posting my translations in the forum for any one to do download.

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Originally posted by Heyder
Anybody that has some technical knowledge of computer science

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
There is no special requirement about time disposal. Groups can be managesper mail or using this board, soi it doesn't require a constantly simultaneous work.

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Well, in a group one can show disposal to a certain work or not, so others can go on with it.
On last translation I was very busy with exams and sould not help my group to translate the 3.54 version. I told them and they split the work acordingly among them excluding me. Now I'm participating on currently ongoing translation, again.

There are hardly any inconvenients to having a group, in fact it has many advantages, like being able to urgently act even if there is personal indisposability. This would also aid the fact that 1) it is added to the official package of pruned translations and 2) being able to someday be included again to the package if the demand proves to be high enough (by internal monitoring).

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Originally posted by KeyStorm

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Originally posted by Heyder
Anybody that has some technical knowledge of computer science

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The fact is that this software does not require such, it's targetted to a broader public of limited computer usage knowledge as well as including some more technical features.

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Time to close this thread by now, perhaps?

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
1) In the "simple" English texts every word has a meaning and often the way in how it is said is important.
...
2) You need to know exactly what each function/feature does in a program to be able to translate it. Just understanding English is certainly not enough....

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