To:       Yuna Software
From:   Adam Smith
CC:       Messenger Plus! Live Testers, Translators, and entire forum community
Date:    February 18, 2010
Re:       An open letter to Yuna Software


My name is Adam Smith, and I am a Plus! user since 2004. I was introduced to Messenger Plus! by a friend showing off its fancy abilities as far back as 2002 if memory serves me correctly. Since then I have become an active member on the community message board (http://shoutbox.menthix.net), our IRC channels (irc.msgplus.net #msgplus and #banana), and most recently last summer meeting some other community members including Cyril ‘Patchou’ Paciullo at an organised event in Toronto. I have offered hundreds of hours of my own time supporting users both in our messageboard and IRC chat room. My graphic design skills are horrible, so I have refrained from making people suffer from designing any skins. I have been active with scripting on the other hand. I have created a few scripts myself and helped countless other people with coding advice.

Our community has had many successes, many triumphs. We have also had our tragedies. From Plus! babes and laptops, gaming consoles, petitions, scandals with Microsoft (anti-spyware campaign, MVP status), shocking video appearances (Patate Spears, traxor.avi), marriages, newborn children and deaths, our history spans many facets.  Many members have come and gone in the span of 8 years. There are lots of names that have built our community to what it is today. People such as Muss, Johnny_Mac, Chrono, WDZ, reisyboy, shine, EvilSeph, Time, sock, fluffy_lobster, musicalmidget and the late Imogen, just to name a few, were the founders of our community. Today, our community boasts 150 testers and translators, over 87,000 messageboard members and a userbase of more than 62 million. All these users and members can’t be wrong about something so good. And now I see the community slowly falling apart.

I have been part of other communities in the past, one specifically that has faced similar demise. This community was also started by a single individual, and was run by him alone for a number of years. This particular website and community also hosted over a million page views daily, and an army of volunteers made sure everything went smoothly. I was one of these volunteers, seeing out daily operations, assisting others, and I was eventually rewarded by moving into an administrative position (but still volunteering). Eventually this community grew too large for one person to manage himself, and thus the website was sold for a large sum of money.

This new set of owners did not take kindly to its volunteers. We were left in the dark, and the former owner told us it was now out of his control. One day very suddenly, all of our administrative tools disappeared for all of the site’s volunteers. Chaos erupted. Volunteers left, the site’s content slowly degraded, and nobody knew what was happening. The new owners, realising the hell they created, sold the site again for an even larger sum of money. The new owners took a look at the mess, and consulted those who remained, and even set up telephone conferences to speak directly. I was one of the lucky few who had the opportunity to speak directly with the new owners. Unfortunately, as this new owner was a large corporate entity, they had rules to follow. I was eventually kicked from the administrative staff along with a few others as I am not an American citizen (I’m Canadian actually), and our remaining volunteer staff were further restricted in their abilities compared to before. I parted ways after being betrayed by the owners of the community I had come to know and love.

The website? RateMyProfessors.com. The original founder is John Swapceinski, later sold to a duo forming the never heard of company Baltimore Solutions, and later to MTVu, subsidy of Viacom. I was in a group of 7 people who overlooked the entire volunteer base and filtered user submitted materials for colleges and universities all across North America.

The community surrounding our favourite messaging addon seems to be heading down similar pathways. Messenger Plus! has been sold to an otherwise unknown company. The community has been asking questions. We have asked Vanessa a number of personal and business related questions in private, and no response was ever given. A female spokesperson who was supposed to be our representative for Yuna has turned into a fashion show model showing off her wares in fanfare and then disappearing behind the curtain again leaving the crowd with only a show.

I was swayed to write this letter after reading another letter from a much respected community member, Will ‘Willz’ Ingles. Will has been an exceptional member to the skinning community. He currently has hosted 21 skins on Messenger Plus! Live’s skins database, with a combined download count of more than 12 million on this site alone. He has made many other skins before Plus! introduced skinning itself. I respect his decision to part ways with his unique talents. The Messenger community as a whole has been slowly degrading since the dawn of social networking. And along with it, the community of developers, supporters, fans and users. Everyone eventually moves on and Plus! is no exception. Our community will never be as strong as it used to be.

As for myself, I will not be leaving what I believe in. I believe in our community, but there has to be people in a community for it to exist. Now to be fair I did start writing this letter before Cyril has posted his most recent announcement, but I believe all my points are still valid. The community needs accountability and trust, and right now we have neither coming from Yuna. As a silent protest I have recently changed my forum avatar to the image of V from the movie “V for Vendetta” and I have invited others to join as well. We are all living in the Shadow Gallery right now, isolated from the bureaucrats, waiting to become revolutionists.

In closing Yuna, you must come to realise that we are a community. Without this community your new found product will fail. Gain our trust, and watch how far we will fly with you.

Sincerely,
Adam

Very well written and I certainly share your views.

Don't count on a response though they seem very reluctent to reply to anything and keeping themselves hidden in the shadows.

This give me more of a insight on what's happening exactly. A very good letter, I just hope they read it.

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Originally posted by MeEtc
We are all living in the Shadow Gallery right now, isolated from the bureaucrats, waiting to become revolutionists.

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Originally posted by matty
Very well written and I certainly share your views.

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Just goes to show how deep the ties of this community goes. Something I hope that they now realize. Really well written. I only wish me voicing what I thought had as much class as this does .

good letter but probably a waste of time, they wont reply

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Originally posted by ICQ
good letter but probably a waste of time, they wont reply

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Originally posted by WDZ

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Originally posted by ICQ
good letter but probably a waste of time, they wont reply

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Why so negative?

It doesn't really matter if they send a reply... the important thing is that they read it and take it into consideration. Apparently the feedback they got was crucial in convincing them to change direction (Back to the roots... for a fresh start).

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Originally posted by WDZ

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Originally posted by ICQ
good letter but probably a waste of time, they wont reply

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Why so negative?

It doesn't really matter if they send a reply... the important thing is that they read it and take it into consideration. Apparently the feedback they got was crucial in convincing them to change direction (Back to the roots... for a fresh start).

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* John Anderton pets Adam

oh man -- how am I going to live now that plus is mostly owned by an advertising company?!

oh wait, it has been for years. you act like nobody saw this coming.

besides, do you *really* need shit like coloured names and emoticon sounds? plus was originally useful for things like logging, but messenger has pretty much replaced all of its useful features with its own (other than scripting, but if you care that much, put your energy into something like livescratcher, which is actually being developed for *your* demographic.)

the way i look at it, nothing nobody here can do about it now, if you dont like the way Msg Plus is going now, just go over to another instant messenger Like AIM

Errr.... Patchou's replies explain and deal with a lot of the raised issues. So why are some people still doing as if those recent changes didn't happen????

not pointing towards MeEtc, but to some of the late replies here which were written well after the new facts

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Originally posted by WDZ
....Apparently the feedback they got was crucial in convincing them to change direction (Back to the roots... for a fresh start).

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But if it's takes this long and this amount of backlash for them to change their ways, shouldn't we all be a bit worried about the future?

Yes you should, because that is only healthy and keeps everyone' radar and involvement up. But as I said, now that things have backlashed, things have now again changed...

See the recent posts of Patchou (and Vanessa)*. The backlashing is already past time and a new future is there. So there is little point in bringing up and replying on dead cows when everything has changed again (for the better); it would just be discussing things which are no more.

*Of course, it doesn't answer all questions, but it certainly does paint a brighter future where, for now, there is no need to keep on going on something (which is now over, done and changed) like nothing has changed at all.

wow that's a strange sentence...I barely understand it myself

I dont think Yuna will even read it....

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Originally posted by riahc4
I dont think Yuna will even read it....

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Originally posted by WDZ
Why so negative?

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Originally posted by Chris4

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Originally posted by riahc4
I dont think Yuna will even read it....

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Originally posted by WDZ
Why so negative?

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Let's take that quote back into context.

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Originally posted by WDZ
Why so negative?

It doesn't really matter if they send a reply... the important thing is that they read it and take it into consideration. Apparently the feedback they got was crucial in convincing them to change direction (Back to the roots... for a fresh start).

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Originally posted by Menthix
Let's take that quote back into context.

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Originally posted by WDZ
Apparently the feedback they got was crucial in convincing them to change direction (Back to the roots... for a fresh start).

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Then you would be mistaken. Patchou is an employee of Yuna.

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Originally posted by riahc4
I doubt that.

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Just as an update, no I have never received a response back personally. At least not yet.

Any updates, one year later?

So far everything is continuing down the same path, except Cyril left on his own instead of being told to leave.

Next on the menu I expect to see Plus decline in usefulness/popularity/openness to community over the next 6 to 18 months. the Plus brand will then get sold again to some other, better known company. My bets are on AOL.

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Originally posted by MeEtc
So far everything is continuing down the same path, except Cyril left on his own instead of being told to leave.

Next on the menu I expect to see Plus decline in usefulness/popularity/openness to community over the next 6 to 18 months. the Plus brand will then get sold again to some other, better known company. My bets are on AOL.

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Originally posted by Jieff

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Originally posted by MeEtc
So far everything is continuing down the same path, except Cyril left on his own instead of being told to leave.

Next on the menu I expect to see Plus decline in usefulness/popularity/openness to community over the next 6 to 18 months. the Plus brand will then get sold again to some other, better known company. My bets are on AOL.

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It is not very cool that you are saying that everything is going down the same path.

We have been very busy creating new version of Plus!. I personally work with the community members and current administrators to keep the community alive and kicking.

Everything that you see (and will see) in the Plus! package come from community suggestions.

Plus! is promised to a bright future and I cannot do it without the community.

Let's be positive here.

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Originally posted by Jieff

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Originally posted by MeEtc
So far everything is continuing down the same path, except Cyril left on his own instead of being told to leave.

Next on the menu I expect to see Plus decline in usefulness/popularity/openness to community over the next 6 to 18 months. the Plus brand will then get sold again to some other, better known company. My bets are on AOL.

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It is not very cool that you are saying that everything is going down the same path.

We have been very busy creating new version of Plus!. I personally work with the community members and current administrators to keep the community alive and kicking.

Everything that you see (and will see) in the Plus! package come from community suggestions.

Plus! is promised to a bright future and I cannot do it without the community.

Let's be positive here.

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I personally work with the community members and current administrators to keep the community alive and kicking.

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Plus! is promised to a bright future and I cannot do it without the community.

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Originally posted by Discrate
Yet your employer is ignoring us.

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Keep in mind there are two totally different entities at work here. Kimahri Software, the development office in Montreal, is all for having the community. Jieff just doesn't have the time to sit and reply to every concern on the forum and to be honest that isn't his job. The other entity is the nameless company that owns Yuna Software. (Yuna Software is just a label and means nothing). Nathalie should be the one who openly communicates with the community as she is the liaison between them and us; not Jieff.

It certainly has become apparent that while Jieff, having many years of software development under his belt and working for big corporations, sees the benefits of having a community around a product; Yuna does not. They are a larger corporation who do things through channels; such as support in house (to give an example).

So instead of all of us jumping down the throat of Jieff (who, I feel, quite frankly is doing great with what he has to work with), we should be questioning Nathalie for answers.

Now you're going to say/think, oh matty, you're just a Jieff/Kimahri fan boy. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. Having visited the office and spent time with everyone I can appreciate his efforts in trying to keep the community alive. I have respect for what they have done in the little bit of time they have had to work on the software.

Spoiler:

Cyril was the one to continually fight for the community to be kept around, now with him out of the picture I naturally would assume this would be Jieff. Jieff see's the value in the community and I guess this is why they included, albeit shitty, a support forum on main site.

Wow, I've been away from this forum for too long. Things fell down, went boom, eh. I must say, I'm rather flattered that you mentioned me in your letter, MeEtc. Didn't realise I was that.. well "regarded". Thanks.

wait, what? I'm not sure who you are, if you have another account now

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Originally posted by MeEtc
wait, what? I'm not sure who you are, if you have another account now

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Originally posted by SonicSam

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Originally posted by MeEtc
wait, what? I'm not sure who you are, if you have another account now

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Time

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Originally posted by matty

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Originally posted by SonicSam

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Originally posted by MeEtc
wait, what? I'm not sure who you are, if you have another account now

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Time

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Father Time is back?!?

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Time to visit an old friend of mine, 2 years later. So what's happened over the past year? We have a new version that looks like a product from 10 years ago, and a new addon that seems to have quite a bit of work added to it.

At least the owners are finally listening to the community. Too bad, but it's too late: the community is gone.

Hi MeEtc. Are you referring to the new addon for Skype?  What do you think of Messenger Plus! for Skype?  We've been getting good feedback and attention and are planning some exciting features in the next release.  Just wondering what your thoughts were on it.

I reduced the quality of your avatar, they don't accept yours because was to big (limit is 17k) mine is 12k

I haven't been active on the messenger plus community but I use messenger plus since I can remember, probably some months later after getting my first computer, perhaps a decade ago.

What you think about the new "driver"?

As soon as I noticed the installing was downloading so much without choosing the sponsor I thought something was wrong, when install finished I went to %programfiles%\Yuna Software\Messenger Plus! to remove "PlusService.exe" and I noticed some crap about "drivers", 2 exes and other strange folders with .inf files. It has been years since I don't install a fishy/spyware program on my computer, Yuna won't recover my trust ever. It is so sad to have to leave messenger plus after these so many years, but I invite to the community to do the same because I believe is the only thing left to do.

I just re-read what I had written here 2 and a half years ago, and I see that the only prediction that hasn't happened yet is the second re-sale of Plus. The community is mostly gone, the volunteers (mostly) don't give a crap anymore, many of the volunteers have left, nobody trusts the owners, and the owners don't communicate.

Congratulations Yuna! You have succeeded in destroying the reputation of your product.

Oh, I should also mention that I did actually email the original letter to support@msgplus or whatever the email address is now back two years ago. Should be fairly obvious by now, but no, they never replied. No emails, no private messages, nothing aside from the forum posts above that were made a year later.

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Originally posted by MeEtc
I just re-read what I had written here 2 and a half years ago, and I see that the only prediction that hasn't happened yet is the second re-sale of Plus. The community is mostly gone, the volunteers (mostly) don't give a crap anymore, many of the volunteers have left, nobody trusts the owners, and the owners don't communicate.

Congratulations Yuna! You have succeeded in destroying the reputation of your product.

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I logged in today because I didn't have mIRC on my new machine and wanted to get onto IRC. Surprised to see the site still here.. I think that resonates with what you folk are saying

AFAICT not many people use Messenger Plus anymore anyway when more an more people use social Media to interact with there friends.

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Originally posted by Hanki
AFAICT not many people use Messenger Plus anymore anyway when more an more people use social Media to interact with there friends.

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Originally posted by matty

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Originally posted by Hanki
AFAICT not many people use Messenger Plus anymore anyway when more an more people use social Media to interact with there friends.

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This is what I have been saying for a long time now. Cyril sold at the best possible time!

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Very sad times.

I've used MsgPlus for 8 odd years. I lurked in the forum for so many years and sometimes posted asking for help.

I stopped using MsgPlus in 2010 it must have been before this take over. Only reason was due to less use of MSN messenger due to the increase of social media. But still I always enjoyed this forum, i enjoyed the characters on here, the collection of good people.

Seems a dreadful shame another independent product, a fine community has been butchered by a new company which doesnt even seem interested in talking with its users

Wow, its really been almost 3 years since I posted this? Feels like a lot longer. Hey Yuna, you you have any download, install and usage statistics? Patchou used to post these quite frequently, I'd be interested in comparing how well your so-called product is failing.

Patchou has managed to support himself and his project without forced ad-ware for 8 years prior, and now you've removed that freedom.

For what it's worth, I still use Plus! for WLM version 4.83, the last version credited as made by Patchou. I have never downloaded or installed your software nor do I have any intention for the future. This tag that I have means nothing. There's been brief testing periods in September 2011 and September 2012 for Plus!-WLM and only one beta period in March 2012 for Plus!-Skype. Your UI continues to be crap, the community is dead, and the number of one-off users asking for help has also severely dwindled.

Your parent company's business is advertising, marketing and online publicity

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Originally posted by http://www.msgplus.net/About-Us
Messenger Plus! became a market.com brand in July, 2011. Market.com brings together the best in ecommerce, epayments and emarketing solutions, providing all the needed services for a successful ebusiness. For more information, visit www.market.com

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Originally posted by http://www.market.com/privacy-policy
Every time you visit and use the Site we may record certain information such as your interaction with the Site, the pages read, movement from page to page, your web request, Internet Protocol address, browser information and application numbers, referring page, cookies, geographical location, date and time, etc.

However, if you wish to take advantage of special services that we may offer from time to time, you may need to provide certain information and this statement (as may be amended from time to time) shall apply as well as the terms of use and privacy guidelines specific to such services, where available.

When you sign up, fill out a form, comment, send us an e-mail or ask us to respond to you by email, or when you communicate with us in any other way ("Communication"), we retain your e-mail address if provided and the information that you have included in the respective Communication as well as our responses to such Communication. We may associate such information with information received from other channels such as your Site usage information.

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HOW WE USE THE INFORMATION

We may use the information collected to optimize performance, improve usability, provide additional or customized offerings, track status indicator, make sure things are working properly, enhance the experience on the Site and for use in aggregate for commercial purposes such as marketing, promotions etc.

We may share information internally as well with third parties, such as trusted suppliers, business partners, advertisers and search engines. However, unless specifically indicated in this document, such information is collected and shared without any association to your personally identifying information so that you remain anonymous.

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It’s a pity, but you’re not going to change anything. Yuna will never take advice because they don’t respect our opinions, despite many of us being respected developers, designers and so on and so forth. This forum was a huge part of my life and it’s got me to where I am today and I’m thankful for that, but this is not the forum you or I signed up to so the best thing we could do is stop using it and keep in touch with people we know in other ways.

I guarantee you that this server will be shut off soon. Without explanation it’ll disappear and the hundreds of thousands of collective hours we’ve spent on here will all be gone.

this place has changed, man.

(what a time for me to randomly check msgplus.net)

Awesome letter MeEtc, share the opinion too.

Incredible even a rep from Yuna couldn't reply to your letter and just spammed the topic.