Shoutbox

I'm not attacking your point of view, you have the right for that. And I'm not aguing about what it realy does (although the things you've said seem like the sponsor is the product from hell although I could give you examples of normal (non-malware) programs which act just the same.)

I'm just saying that the sponsor CAN be removed easly.

I (and many other people) have tested this several times...

Including breaking it first with things like ad-aware (which can be devistating to your normal Windows settings btw!) and Spybot S&D (can be EXTREMELY devistating to normal Windows settings!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This app should be forbidden to be used by common people <= also an extreme point of view, but believe me, it IS extremely dangerous in the hands of a normal user and it warns you about all kinds of things which are simply harmless and often needed, etc..)

On all the occasions, I could fix the sponsor by simple installing Plus! again with the sponsor, and right after deleting Plus! and following the instructions...

In many occasions I've seen on this forum, people do NOT follow the proper instructions. They can't resist to use ad-aware, or they don't close their webbrowsers (so, yes, the toolbar can't be installed that way), or they don't put in the validation number, or they can't find the window to put it in (yes it can be sometimes "hidden" under another window, but moving some topwindows will always reveal the validationwindow)...

I never encountered a situation were I couldn't uninstall the sponsor by reinstalling/uninstalling. And that's including all the remote assistences I did for people who claimed it was uninstallable...

PS: about the "damage" part... run Spybot S&D and do as it suggest you to do, it will cause more damage then this sponsor!

PSS: if the sponsor wasn't from LOP, but from another less known company, yet had the same behaviour, I'm sure that people wont fuzz about as much as they do know. (note: I'm note saying nobody would fuzz about it though, only that it would be less)

I realise how much damage Ad-Aware & Spybot S&D can cause - you're right, normal users shouldn't run them. But that doesn't change the fact that many will.

You're also right about the sponsor coming from LOP causing much of the distrust - but does that make it less worthy of that mistrust? Anything which conceals itself in the manner C2 Media products do is not going to be trusted by anyone who finds it.

My younger brother installed Plus!, just saying yes to everything. So I found LOP, & tried to rid myself of it (as previously detailed), etc. Also, even if you do read the licence, it's not all true: "Upon Installation of the Software and the Accessory Toolbar, any other toolbars currently visible will be deactivated, but may be manually reactivated" - This is only sometimes possible. "The Software may be removed through a variety of methods, including going to the start menu, selecting Control Panel, Add / Remove Programs, and then selecting the Software for removal." - if you've read this far, you know (ie. have been told) that the "software" is LOP, or possibly "Window Explorer." So having to remove Plus! is not the idea given.

If you've already got LOP (one of the more evil versions - ), or if you get it afterwards, that one screws with the Plus! one, making it hard to delete (it happened to me).

And the shortcuts created are not to LOP, though that's where that take you. They're random garbage .JPG files on random garbage (nonexistant) sites. The homepages are the same. But they take you to lop.com (admittedly, that is in the license). The point here is the garbage - it gives an unknown URL, which sends you to LOP's chosen searchpage. But these shortcuts are named things like "Games," "Gambling," "Banking." There may be links to these on LOP's searchpage, but it's misleading.

This is a bit off topic, but support@lop.com tells you that you can uninstall any C2 Media product by going Help > About > Uninstall. Utter crap. None of them even have Help menus.

Sorry if that was a bit jump-all-over-the-place-ish, but basically it comes to this - if you fiddle with it, or don't know where it came from, you're not going to have an easy time uninstalling it. Reinstalling with the sponsor etc. does work, but not always. And many people aren't going to think of that, or come here to find out. I only came to see if I could find out why Patchou's including it (which I did, & the reason is good enough for me).

Fred Greg.

Patchou has done the right thing in making it optional. You can't argue that, because most [evil] software developers install spware without you even knowing, despite not giving you the option. Patchou has to make a living too .

You base your spyware arguments on the fact that the sponsorsoftware does it best to survive on the systemwhere it's installed. It is true that it adds many weird links that all ultiamtely go to the same search page, and the reason is simple: anti-adware programs. If software liek adaware didn't exist, they wouldn't have to do this. If a popular application was detecting my software and trying to remove it auomatically, I would try to overcome the protection too. The fact is that when an adware liek the one I distribute is properly installed (by asking the user before doing anything and by not displaying things like"click here to win" to forcean install), the software is completely legitimate and in my opinion, companies like adaware do not have the right to remove it from a computer. Most of my users are not interested in computer stuff, they're just interested in getting the program they want, for free. and that's what they get with Messenger Plus!. Mostof them don't care to install the sponsor because they understand (or don't even bother to wonder) that they get a couple of ads in exchange for some free services. That's what you get on every search engine nowadays, that's what you get on TV, on radio, everywhere! why would it be any different for software? I don't see people destroying advertisements in the street under the pretext that they don't want to see them everyday while taking the bus.

Whether you like it or not my friend, everything in computers is goingtoward the same direction as any other popular media took before: ad-supported. The reason is always the same: people don't want to pay for anything. I'm convinced that we're currently living a period of transition (with abuses on the two sides) but that at somepoint, things will calm down and everyonewill be used to get some ads on their desktop regularly. I don't say I look forward to this day, certainely not, but I'm sure it's near.

OK, I'm convinced of your reasoning. It's fair enough. But you should make it clearer, if that's possible without infuriating lop.com, exactly what is being asked (info with & around the LOP EULA).

And the EULA is easily interpreted to allow all this stuff - it's just that it's also easily interpreted otherwise.

But about the mumbo-jumbo being to prevent Ad-Aware & it's ilk removing LOP, I have three points:

1) It doesn't work. They find & remove them.

2) It's C2 Media's own fault - via their other programs & other versions of LOP, the BAD ones.

3) They could get around it by rewriting their sponsor app. to be different & therefore distinguishable, & actually including a Help > About > Uninstall option, like they say they do (in correspondence with support@lop.com, although I have yet to hear of a case when they did).

Otherwise, I do see why you need a sponsor, & although it's not a great choice, it's apparently (no sarcastic emphasis there) the best choice. Also, I'm not saying this one is spyware - just that C2 Media software in general is. They almost never ask to install, prefering driveby installations.

It is a pity about the ads - what you said, Patchou - but I can put up with them if I know where they come from & how to remove them (this isn't a reference to your sponsor app.). What I can't stand is if they're hidden &/or ununinstallable, or if I don't know where they come from. This attitude'll become more prevalent, I reckon, as more people become familiar with their systems.

Oh well,
Fred Greg.